Ask LizzyM (Almost) Anything 2012 edition

[gettheleadout]

i just graduated, but i am spending 30-40 hrs a week on an artistic endeavor alongside MCAT studying, will that be regarded as "solus"? i dont think anyone would spend 3-5 months doing nothing but MCAT. i pretty much have a full-time commitment every week in addition to MCAT studying - totaling around 70-80 hrs of work a week.

and would a 30 MCAT (taken while a full time student) be more impressive than a 35 (taken solus?)

This is exactly the reason I think it's unreasonable to factor this in. Again, if dedicated study time is given for the boards, why can't we use our own time without being judged for it? This is like qualifying a high score by saying "well that person has a high GPA from X University so they're smart and didn't have to try as hard to score well."


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[amad01]

This is exactly the reason I think it's unreasonable to factor this in. Again, if dedicated study time is given for the boards, why can't we use our own time without being judged for it? This is like qualifying a high score by saying "well that person has a high GPA from X University so they're smart and didn't have to try as hard to score well."


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I am with you on this one. Some things on this thread are just too much. Disadvantage for studying over the summer? Sounds like a smart idea to me. I find it hard to believe the majority of admission commities would be this Nazi. Give me a break. I feel like a lot of little meaningless things are being blown out of proportion and it scares pre-meds. Have good stats, get some experiences, apply broadly, and don't sweat the little stuff. If a school doesn't like you because you studied for the mcat over the summer, then that's horrible judgement on their behalf and their loss and you just keep on keepin' on.

 

[noncon]

LizzyM,

Some of our students are Mormon, given that we are close to Utah, although most are non-Mormon URM's.

BYU, which is a Mormon university, desperately needs diversity on their lily white campus. Which is why BYU recruits our students heavily for all kinds of programs like their visiting student program, summer program, research internships, etc. Their tuition is one of the lowest in the country. We always wrestle with whether we should send our students to BYU because they will be branded "Mormon" even when they are not - and most of our students are not Mormon.

The question we have often asked is - are Mormons (or those who are perceived as Mormon) discriminated against when it comes to med school admissions? And the answer - from the Mormon Church and BYU - is a loud NO. Of course, if they said yes, people will not want to join their university and students with ambitions will also be reluctant to serve missions. BYU and the Mormon Church told our school that Accounting firms and Law Schools often prefer Mormons because they believe Mormons will not take their clients for a ride. I also hear other stories. This one I know is true because I know both the people involved - one ABD in Economics student from a top-5 business school decided to interview at BYU for a faculty position. His dissertation supervisor berated him over dinner "are you crazy?" "do you really want to be rubbing shoulders with religious zealots?" "they are a bunch of fundamentalists out there" "I won't write your cover letter if you plan to join such schools" etc.

I do know that Mormon Returned Missionaries who serve two year missions are greatly sought after by some medical schools because they have served for two years. I also know that some dental schools - like Creighton - take in mainly Mormon students. But I suspect that elsewhere there is a great deal of discrimination against Mormons who have NOT served any missions. Would you agree with this assessment when it comes to medical school admissions? Is it risky to recommend to our students to accept BYU's invitations for this reason?

 

[MelissaThompson]

I am with you on this one. Some things on this thread are just too much. Disadvantage for studying over the summer? Sounds like a smart idea to me. I find it hard to believe the majority of admission commities would be this Nazi. Give me a break. I feel like a lot of little meaningless things are being blown out of proportion and it scares pre-meds. Have good stats, get some experiences, apply broadly, and don't sweat the little stuff. If a school doesn't like you because you studied for the mcat over the summer, then that's horrible judgement on their behalf and their loss and you just keep on keepin' on.

This.

Please remember - many times an adcom will sound all tough to make their themselves look good.

I applied to U of Colorado - my undergrad and home state. I had asked a member of the adcom about lack of significant leadership experience. His reply was "we want future leaders in medicine." I just LOL'd - as U of Colorado interviews nearly all its in-state residents, and admits half of those it interviews. So not very rigorous!

 

[aspiring20]

This.

Please remember - many times an adcom will sound all tough to make their themselves look good.

I applied to U of Colorado - my undergrad and home state. I had asked a member of the adcom about lack of significant leadership experience. His reply was "we want future leaders in medicine." I just LOL'd - as U of Colorado interviews nearly all its in-state residents, and admits half of those it interviews. So not very rigorous!

that is insane. sigh....compare that to CA medical schools. the process just isn't fair. where you live can make or break you.

 

[MelissaThompson]

[/B]

that is insane. sigh....compare that to CA medical schools. the process just isn't fair. where you live can make or break you.

Yup - and I count in-state at 2 schools too! Colorado and Nebraska. Both have actually over 50% admit rate for their applicants.

 

[aspiring20]

Yup - and I count in-state at 2 schools too! Colorado and Nebraska. Both have actually over 50% admit rate for their applicants.

unbelievable. CA schools are less than 1 percent.

 

[Plue00]

I have a couple of questions regarding research.

I just got a research position for the next 2.5 years from my university's medical school. Would doing cancer research for the medical school be favored compared to doing regular biology research in the undergrad part of the school? Or would it just look the same.

I'd be committed for 2.5 years to this lab (1.5 years when I apply) and was wondering if that would be frowned upon. Would medical schools see that I only focused on cancer research for the next 2.5 years and think it was bad that I didn't explore any other research areas? I'm really interested in cancer research but I don't want medical schools to think that I'm not well rounded by the fact that I'd only be doing that kind of research.

Thanks for the help

 

[Si Se Puede]

This is exactly the reason I think it's unreasonable to factor this in. Again, if dedicated study time is given for the boards, why can't we use our own time without being judged for it? This is like qualifying a high score by saying "well that person has a high GPA from X University so they're smart and didn't have to try as hard to score well."


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As LizzyM stated, you should undertake more than just MCAT studying; obviously, you would include in your work/activities section that you worked for 70 hours a week, etc during the summer and the adcoms can see the situation you were in.

The purpose of the MCAT is, from what I understand, to act as an equalizer of sorts--an equalizer for one's intelligence. This is severely flawed, of course; however, a "standardized" test such as the MCAT is the best possible tool adcoms possess in the present to assess students' intellectual capacities across varying undergrads. You might argue that the MCAT is not a test of intelligence and a test of how well you take a test; I would agree. But there is some correlation, particularly in the verbal section, as to one's ability to think critically. A poor test taker should still have the intelligence to score well on the MCAT relative to someone who just does not have the intellectual capacity.

The difference between the boards and MCAT is that everyone at that specific school recieve a relatively similar "potential" amount of time/conditions to study for the boards. Premeds come across from dozens of different backgrounds, from typical 4 year undergrads to people several years removed and in the workforce. This leads to an uncontrollable aspect for prep time/conditions, yet adcoms can potentially put forth an effort to minimize variances by considering the workload at the time of taking the MCAT. A person's performance on a standardized test can be improved with various factors, such as financial resources and time allotted to prepping. This severely lowers the "intelligence" factor of the test; unfortunately, the test is the best tool we have over GPA variances. To minimize the effects of these factors, prep time and the like can be considered by some adcoms, not all. Again, that is just one small variable, and I would imagine worth +- 1 to 2 (extreme) points at most.

One example to illustrate that the MCAT is coachable and dependent on prep time: If I were a test prep instructor, I would teach students to approach problems from a different perspective. For example, one released test question asked for the acceleration of a block down an incline, with answer choices 0, 7, 11, 13 m/s^2. 99% of students would start plugging and chugging. However, you can solve that problem by just knowing that the acceleration of a block down a slope with no extra external forces must have a maximum of 10 and a minimum of 0. Knowing that, you know that if the block slides down the incline, the only answer choice that could possibly be right is 7. I've stumbled across quite a number of these different perspectives/tricks and they really let you breeze through questions in a few seconds. Coaching is definitely a factor in one's score.

Take the MCAT when you feel you are ready; there is no point in trying to time when you are going to take the MCAT.

 

[noncon]

Both have actually over 50% admit rate for their applicants.

How can you count as instate in two different states - is this even possible?

And are you sure Uni of Colorado interviews ALL instate and accepts 50%? And can you be more specific about Nebraska? Do you have any links for this?

 

[aspiring20]

As LizzyM stated, you should undertake more than just MCAT studying; obviously, you would include in your work/activities section that you worked for 70 hours a week, etc during the summer and the adcoms can see the situation you were in.

The purpose of the MCAT is, from what I understand, to act as an equalizer of sorts--an equalizer for one's intelligence. This is severely flawed, of course; however, a "standardized" test such as the MCAT is the best possible tool adcoms possess in the present to assess students' intellectual capacities across varying undergrads. You might argue that the MCAT is not a test of intelligence and a test of how well you take a test; I would agree. But there is some correlation, particularly in the verbal section, as to one's ability to think critically. A poor test taker should still have the intelligence to score well on the MCAT relative to someone who just does not have the intellectual capacity.

The difference between the boards and MCAT is that everyone at that specific school recieve a relatively similar "potential" amount of time/conditions to study for the boards. Premeds come across from dozens of different backgrounds, from typical 4 year undergrads to people several years removed and in the workforce. This leads to an uncontrollable aspect for prep time/conditions, yet adcoms can potentially put forth an effort to minimize variances by considering the workload at the time of taking the MCAT. A person's performance on a standardized test can be improved with various factors, such as financial resources and time allotted to prepping. This severely lowers the "intelligence" factor of the test; unfortunately, the test is the best tool we have over GPA variances. To minimize the effects of these factors, prep time and the like can be considered by some adcoms, not all. Again, that is just one small variable, and I would imagine worth +- 1 to 2 (extreme) points at most.

One example to illustrate that the MCAT is coachable and dependent on prep time: If I were a test prep instructor, I would teach students to approach problems from a different perspective. For example, one released test question asked for the acceleration of a block down an incline, with answer choices 0, 7, 11, 13 m/s^2. 99% of students would start plugging and chugging. However, you can solve that problem by just knowing that the acceleration of a block down a slope with no extra external forces must have a maximum of 10 and a minimum of 0. Knowing that, you know that if the block slides down the incline, the only answer choice that could possibly be right is 7. I've stumbled across quite a number of these different perspectives/tricks and they really let you breeze through questions in a few seconds. Coaching is definitely a factor in one's score.

Take the MCAT when you feel you are ready; there is no point in trying to time when you are going to take the MCAT.

isn't that just a test of fundamental physics concept/knowledge?

 

[Si Se Puede]

isn't that just a test of fundamental physics concept/knowledge?

You are correct; however, 99.9% of students would not think of that 1) when they stumble across that problem and 2) even until someone points it out to them. You may be the exception. It's not that they don't know that fact, it is that they do not utilize it.

The point is, coaching can open your eyes to the array of ways to solve problems, etc. And coaching costs money, lots of it.

 

[shahcoco]

Well, I tend to see (at interview) the guy who studied while in school who got the 40. Some people tell me that they took one fewer class during jr spring term and used those extra 12 hr/wk (time that would have been spent in class and studying for the class) preparing for the MCAT at a rate of 2 hr/day.

Do what you think you need to do. Keep in mind that my experiences with applicants are at the tip top of the pyramid and that most applicants should take my advice it with a grain of salt.

You gives us answers and they inspire more questions Thank you for all of your time!

1) Will you share what else you know about the study habits of these 40 MCATs? Did they start studying for each section after they took the corresponding pre req? Anything unique?

2) If a school requires a class like biochem for their med apps, can you apply in June and leave the app pending (like you can for MCAT) until you finish the course in Aug through Summer session? Or would that be frowned upon?

 

[amad01]

LizzyM,

Some of our students are Mormon, given that we are close to Utah, although most are non-Mormon URM's.

BYU, which is a Mormon university, desperately needs diversity on their lily white campus. Which is why BYU recruits our students heavily for all kinds of programs like their visiting student program, summer program, research internships, etc. Their tuition is one of the lowest in the country. We always wrestle with whether we should send our students to BYU because they will be branded "Mormon" even when they are not - and most of our students are not Mormon.

The question we have often asked is - are Mormons (or those who are perceived as Mormon) discriminated against when it comes to med school admissions? And the answer - from the Mormon Church and BYU - is a loud NO. Of course, if they said yes, people will not want to join their university and students with ambitions will also be reluctant to serve missions. BYU and the Mormon Church told our school that Accounting firms and Law Schools often prefer Mormons because they believe Mormons will not take their clients for a ride. I also hear other stories. This one I know is true because I know both the people involved - one ABD in Economics student from a top-5 business school decided to interview at BYU for a faculty position. His dissertation supervisor berated him over dinner "are you crazy?" "do you really want to be rubbing shoulders with religious zealots?" "they are a bunch of fundamentalists out there" "I won't write your cover letter if you plan to join such schools" etc.

I do know that Mormon Returned Missionaries who serve two year missions are greatly sought after by some medical schools because they have served for two years. I also know that some dental schools - like Creighton - take in mainly Mormon students. But I suspect that elsewhere there is a great deal of discrimination against Mormons who have NOT served any missions. Would you agree with this assessment when it comes to medical school admissions? Is it risky to recommend to our students to accept BYU's invitations for this reason?

Does the application ask for religion? If it doesn't say anything about a mission in the application, how would the adcom know they were/weren't LDS?

BYU is a nationally recognized school and this same question could be asked about Notre Dame, USD, Marquette, Baylor, or any of the 800 other US colleges and Universities with religious affiliation.

 

[Si Se Puede]

If you want to test your "basic, fundamental" knowledge of physics, take a shot at this problem.

You have a container with two components, water and oil (density 600 kg/m^3). The water comprises the bottom 10 meters while the oil makes up the top 6 meters. A rectangle (9 m^3) is halfway in between the two layer barrier. What's the density of the rectangle?

While you could attempt to solve this problem by the standard way and waste a minute or two if you are fast, you can also solve this problem literally 3 seconds after you finish reading the problem.

If you got it that fast, kudos to you my friend, you have earned yourself some serious time on the more difficult problems!

 

[uphillBattle]

LizzyM! This question came to me very recently and I wanted to throw it in though I said I already asked my *final questions*.

I'm really interested in pediatrics and a lot of activities that I have been involved with have been kid focused. I try to actively interact with children in both the clinical/non-clinical activities. I recently started work on my PS so I've decided to really highlight my enthusiasm for working with children and show how I matured from being a directionless ug to a more focused post-grad.

Would having this angle on my PS automatically lock me out of some schools?
Would talking about my interest in pediatric care be too specific and make some schools hesitant? FYI, I plan on sweeping the low to mid tier MD list.

Appreciate your advice LizzyM.

 

[gettheleadout]

As LizzyM stated, you should undertake more than just MCAT studying; obviously, you would include in your work/activities section that you worked for 70 hours a week, etc during the summer and the adcoms can see the situation you were in.

The purpose of the MCAT is, from what I understand, to act as an equalizer of sorts--an equalizer for one's intelligence. This is severely flawed, of course; however, a "standardized" test such as the MCAT is the best possible tool adcoms possess in the present to assess students' intellectual capacities across varying undergrads. You might argue that the MCAT is not a test of intelligence and a test of how well you take a test; I would agree. But there is some correlation, particularly in the verbal section, as to one's ability to think critically. A poor test taker should still have the intelligence to score well on the MCAT relative to someone who just does not have the intellectual capacity.

The difference between the boards and MCAT is that everyone at that specific school recieve a relatively similar "potential" amount of time/conditions to study for the boards. Premeds come across from dozens of different backgrounds, from typical 4 year undergrads to people several years removed and in the workforce. This leads to an uncontrollable aspect for prep time/conditions, yet adcoms can potentially put forth an effort to minimize variances by considering the workload at the time of taking the MCAT. A person's performance on a standardized test can be improved with various factors, such as financial resources and time allotted to prepping. This severely lowers the "intelligence" factor of the test; unfortunately, the test is the best tool we have over GPA variances. To minimize the effects of these factors, prep time and the like can be considered by some adcoms, not all. Again, that is just one small variable, and I would imagine worth +- 1 to 2 (extreme) points at most.

One example to illustrate that the MCAT is coachable and dependent on prep time: If I were a test prep instructor, I would teach students to approach problems from a different perspective. For example, one released test question asked for the acceleration of a block down an incline, with answer choices 0, 7, 11, 13 m/s^2. 99% of students would start plugging and chugging. However, you can solve that problem by just knowing that the acceleration of a block down a slope with no extra external forces must have a maximum of 10 and a minimum of 0. Knowing that, you know that if the block slides down the incline, the only answer choice that could possibly be right is 7. I've stumbled across quite a number of these different perspectives/tricks and they really let you breeze through questions in a few seconds. Coaching is definitely a factor in one's score.

Take the MCAT when you feel you are ready; there is no point in trying to time when you are going to take the MCAT.

Obviously the test is coachable/trainable/whatever, but where do you want to start drawing lines in the sand comparing scores? So a non-trad who couldn't afford good study materials or much time off to study gets a 29, can you assume he/she would have done better with more resources? No, I don't think you can. While it's entirely possible, that's just wild speculation. What about comparing a 40 with a 35 where the 40 studied for dedicated months and the 35 studied during the school year? Can you assume the 35 would have scored higher with dedicated time or that the 40 would have scored a 35 without dedicated time? No, you absolutely cannot. What about only comparing equivalent scores based on study time/resources? Are two 30's not equal anymore because one student studied longer? What conclusion are you going to draw from that? The 30 who studied longer is less efficient/intelligent/driven/whatever than the other?

Every assumption you try to make in comparing factors like these is just wild speculation, pulling BS out of a hat because "life isn't fair." Yeah, no kidding it's not, but guess what, that doesn't mean you get to undermine one person's achievement or give another person credit they're not due because of factors unrelated to what you're measuring.

I've spent almost a grand on MCAT prep materials, and you know what? Let's say hypothetically I do well, and someone who scores lower tries to tell me that they could have gotten a score as high as mine if they had the same prep materials. You know, maybe they could have! But I have absolutely no way of knowing that and they have no way of proving it without actually doing it.

The MCAT is the equalizer, so why try to muddy the waters? People take whatever initiative they choose to research and prepare for the test, allot their time however they can or want, and this should be recognized as a requisite part of submitting your score to medical schools. You don't think your score is representative of your ability? Don't submit it. Why should an adcom assume it isn't?

 

[noncon]

Does the application ask for religion? If it doesn't say anything about a mission in the application, how would the adcom know they were/weren't LDS?

BYU is a nationally recognized school and this same question could be asked about Notre Dame, USD, Marquette, Baylor, or any of the 800 other US colleges and Universities with religious affiliation.

Almost 100% of BYU students are Mormon. If they see a BYU transcript, they assume you are Mormon by default. Notre Dame is Catholic, which is mainstream. Catholics are not perceived as people who have 5 wives and so on......

 

[MelissaThompson]

How can you count as instate in two different states - is this even possible?

And are you sure Uni of Colorado interviews ALL instate and accepts 50%? And can you be more specific about Nebraska? Do you have any links for this?

It is possible. I graduated from a Colorado high school - so I automatically count instate for U of Colorado.

I have been working in Nebraska for a year - so I also count as Nebraska resident. AMCAS does not limit you to one home state - it is up to the school to individually decide if you count as a resident.

That being said - my mother works in Illinois, my father works in Ohio - if I get added to their tax forms - then Woila! A 3rd and 4th home state for me.

Colorado, Nebraska, Ohio, and Illinois all instate schools for me - aren't those great odds?

 

[amad01]

LizzyM,

Some of our students are Mormon, given that we are close to Utah, although most are non-Mormon URM's.

BYU, which is a Mormon university, desperately needs diversity on their lily white campus. Which is why BYU recruits our students heavily for all kinds of programs like their visiting student program, summer program, research internships, etc. Their tuition is one of the lowest in the country. We always wrestle with whether we should send our students to BYU because they will be branded "Mormon" even when they are not - and most of our students are not Mormon.

The question we have often asked is - are Mormons (or those who are perceived as Mormon) discriminated against when it comes to med school admissions? And the answer - from the Mormon Church and BYU - is a loud NO. Of course, if they said yes, people will not want to join their university and students with ambitions will also be reluctant to serve missions. BYU and the Mormon Church told our school that Accounting firms and Law Schools often prefer Mormons because they believe Mormons will not take their clients for a ride. I also hear other stories. This one I know is true because I know both the people involved - one ABD in Economics student from a top-5 business school decided to interview at BYU for a faculty position. His dissertation supervisor berated him over dinner "are you crazy?" "do you really want to be rubbing shoulders with religious zealots?" "they are a bunch of fundamentalists out there" "I won't write your cover letter if you plan to join such schools" etc.

I do know that Mormon Returned Missionaries who serve two year missions are greatly sought after by some medical schools because they have served for two years. I also know that some dental schools - like Creighton - take in mainly Mormon students. But I suspect that elsewhere there is a great deal of discrimination against Mormons who have NOT served any missions. Would you agree with this assessment when it comes to medical school admissions? Is it risky to recommend to our students to accept BYU's invitations for this reason?

Does the application ask for religion? If it doesn't say anything about a mission in the application, how would the adcom know they were/weren't LDS?

BYU is a nationally recognized school and this same question could be asked about Notre Dame, USD, Marquette, Baylor, or any of the 800 other US colleges and Universities with religious affiliation.

 

[noncon]

It is possible. I graduated from a Colorado high school - so I automatically count instate for U of Colorado.

I have been working in Nebraska for a year - so I also count as Nebraska resident. AMCAS does not limit you to one home state - it is up to the school to individually decide if you count as a resident.

That being said - my mother works in Illinois, my father works in Ohio - if I get added to their tax forms - then Woila! A 3rd and 4th home state for me.

Colorado, Nebraska, Ohio, and Illinois all instate schools for me - aren't those great odds?

Thanks Melissa! But because there is no external link to the information you conveyed, can somebody else confirm all this is indeed correct?

 

[Si Se Puede]

Obviously the test is coachable/trainable/whatever, but where do you want to start drawing lines in the sand comparing scores? So a non-trad who couldn't afford good study materials or much time off to study gets a 29, can you assume he/she would have done better with more resources? No, I don't think you can. While it's entirely possible, that's just wild speculation. What about comparing a 40 with a 35 where the 40 studied for dedicated months and the 35 studied during the school year? Can you assume the 35 would have scored higher with dedicated time or that the 40 would have scored a 35 without dedicated time? No, you absolutely cannot. What about only comparing equivalent scores based on study time/resources? Are two 30's not equal anymore because one student studied longer? What conclusion are you going to draw from that? The 30 who studied longer is less efficient/intelligent/driven/whatever than the other?

Every assumption you try to make in comparing factors like these is just wild speculation, pulling BS out of a hat because "life isn't fair." Yeah, no kidding it's not, but guess what, that doesn't mean you get to undermine one person's achievement or give another person credit they're not due because of factors unrelated to what you're measuring.

I've spent almost a grand on MCAT prep materials, and you know what? Let's say hypothetically I do well, and someone who scores lower tries to tell me that they could have gotten a score as high as mine if they had the same prep materials. You know, maybe they could have! But I have absolutely no way of knowing that and they have no way of proving it without actually doing it.

The MCAT is the equalizer, so why try to muddy the waters? People take whatever initiative they choose to research and prepare for the test, allot their time however they can or want, and this should be recognized as a requisite part of submitting your score to medical schools. You don't think your score is representative of your ability? Don't submit it. Why should an adcom assume it isn't?

Because it simply isn't. It is the great "equalizer" because there is nothing better. Neither you nor I nor the adcoms are wrong about our views on the MCAT and its intricacies. The testtakers who are naturally capable will likely support my point of view because they may want the test to be an representative of your innate ability to think, those who would not mind having a lot of prep time/resources available and turn the MCAT into a sort of "work ethic" test would likely support your view, and adcoms will each have their own little bias which can work one way or another.

 

[TipToad]

It is possible. I graduated from a Colorado high school - so I automatically count instate for U of Colorado.

I have been working in Nebraska for a year - so I also count as Nebraska resident. AMCAS does not limit you to one home state - it is up to the school to individually decide if you count as a resident.

That being said - my mother works in Illinois, my father works in Ohio - if I get added to their tax forms - then Woila! A 3rd and 4th home state for me.

Colorado, Nebraska, Ohio, and Illinois all instate schools for me - aren't those great odds?

I thought you could only declare one state of residence for AMCAS?

 

[gettheleadout]

Because it simply isn't. It is the great "equalizer" because there is nothing better. Neither you nor I nor the adcoms are wrong about our views on the MCAT and its intricacies. The testtakers who are naturally capable will likely support my point of view because they may want the test to be an representative of your innate ability to think, those who would not mind having a lot of prep time/resources available and turn the MCAT into a sort of "work ethic" test would likely support your view, and adcoms will each have their own little bias which can work one way or another.

Given that view I would expect you to be even more averse to anyone making blind assumptions about performance beyond one's score.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile

 

[amad01]

Almost 100% of BYU students are Mormon. If they see a BYU transcript, they assume you are Mormon by default. Notre Dame is Catholic, which is mainstream. Catholics are not perceived as people who have 5 wives and so on......

I really hope there are not adcoms who are ignorant enough to believe BYU graduates have 5 wives


I served an LDS mission and while I definitely don't expect any brownie points from it, I could list 100 experiences that helped me become a better person and hopefully a better physician someday. If I'm discriminated for it, then it is what it is I also learned a language but I'm nowhere near BYU.

 

[Si Se Puede]

Given that view I would expect you to be even more averse to anyone making blind assumptions about performance beyond one's score.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile

I, unlike most, can think without being blinded by my own point of view. Nowhere did I make "blind assumptions"; they are real, true factors. Factors, such as prep, do make a huge difference for most people. Would we know how a person without resources could have done? Of course not; but I daresay, most people would score significantly less if minus the prep. Who knows, maybe you refuse to believe they make a positive difference. Maybe not everyone benefits. The majority of the premeds do benefit from prep/etc.

Edit:

Yeah, no kidding it's not, but guess what, that doesn't mean you get to undermine one person's achievement or give another person credit they're not due because of factors unrelated to what you're measuring.

Simply put, it would be reasonable (due to the reason why the MCAT is the "equalizer") to view GPA as a flawed measure of work ethic and the MCAT as a flawed measure of intelligence. I'm curious though, what exactly are you measuring with the MCAT?

 

[passionformed]

If you want to test your "basic, fundamental" knowledge of physics, take a shot at this problem.

You have a container with two components, water and oil (density 600 kg/m^3). The water comprises the bottom 10 meters while the oil makes up the top 6 meters. A rectangle (9 m^3) is halfway in between the two layer barrier. What's the density of the rectangle?

While you could attempt to solve this problem by the standard way and waste a minute or two if you are fast, you can also solve this problem literally 3 seconds after you finish reading the problem.

If you got it that fast, kudos to you my friend, you have earned yourself some serious time on the more difficult problems!

What is the answer? I think I have an answer, but is it really that easy?

 

[gettheleadout]

I, unlike most, can think without being blinded by my own point of view. Nowhere did I make "blind assumptions"; they are real, true factors. Factors, such as prep, do make a huge difference for most people. Would we know how a person without resources could have done? Of course not; but I daresay, most people would score significantly less if minus the prep. Who knows, maybe you refuse to believe they make a positive difference. Maybe not everyone benefits. The majority of the premeds do benefit from prep/etc.

They are as blind assumptions as trying to factor in the effect of passage material on a particular form of the test, or anxiety that day, or personal events that occurred recently, or anything else that you can argue may play a big role but that no one has any way of knowing about or quantifying.

You can disagree, but I think reading into these scores more than face value just undermines everyone's efforts. Like I said, if you don't think your score is representative of your ability and aren't okay with it being taken as such, don't submit it. Or are we going to add an "explain your score" section to AMCAS too now?


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[gettheleadout]

Edit:



Simply put, it would be reasonable (due to the reason why the MCAT is the "equalizer") to view GPA as a flawed measure of work ethic and the MCAT as a flawed measure of intelligence. I'm curious though, what exactly are you measuring with the MCAT?

I agree with that, it makes sense. However, I feel the factors that make both of those imperfect are so variable that trying to account for them is worse than useless. It's also my impression that the MCAT is trying to predict performance in med school, specifically on the boards. Whether that performance is derivative of natural intelligence or ability or of work ethic doesn't seem relevant.


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[Si Se Puede]

They are as blind assumptions as trying to factor in the effect of passage material on a particular form of the test, or anxiety that day, or personal events that occurred recently, or anything else that you can argue may play a big role but that no one has any way of knowing about or quantifying.

You can disagree, but I think reading into these scores more than face value just undermines everyone's efforts. Like I said, if you don't think your score is representative of your ability and aren't okay with it being taken as such, don't submit it. Or are we going to add an "explain your score" section to AMCAS too now?


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Why do you keep saying undermine? Nobody ever said anything about undermining. The dangers of literary analysis

You take the score as well as any other contextual factors that can help evaluate the applicant's ability and use it for what it is. Let me try to give you an illustration: a 35 is a 35 and a 4.0 semester is a 4.0 semester. Nobody is going to dock points from you for either of those accomplishments. Job well done. Now, if you can accomplish that with what appears to be a more difficult route, then you may get a very small bonus.

 

[Si Se Puede]

I agree with that, it makes sense. However, I feel the factors that make both of those imperfect are so variable that trying to account for them is worse than useless. It's also my impression that the MCAT is trying to predict performance in med school, specifically on the boards. Whether that performance is derivative of natural intelligence or ability or of work ethic doesn't seem relevant.


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It is making a mess in a sense, but I guess adcoms all have their biases and the adcom that takes one side will implement his/her bias and the adcom on the other side will cancel out the bias. Most likely, the net effect is that the scores are all considered as nothing more than scores, with no influences considered. I don't know, maybe top tier schools have to search for tiny factors when picking 1% out of thousands.

 

[gettheleadout]

Why do you keep saying undermine? Nobody ever said anything about undermining. The dangers of literary analysis

You take the score as well as any other contextual factors that can help evaluate the applicant's ability and use it for what it is. Let me try to give you an illustration: a 35 is a 35 and a 4.0 semester is a 4.0 semester. Nobody is going to dock points from you for either of those accomplishments. Job well done. Now, if you can accomplish that with what appears to be a more difficult route, then you may get a very small bonus.

I'm saying undermine, and you've just made my point. What "appears" to be a more difficult route, though nobody knows what's difficult for different people. Different classes, different schedules, different tests are harder for different people. How can you possibly know without making assumptions that justify viewing people's identical achievements in different contexts? I would definitely hope the bonus stays small, but I just don't see the point. I understand the premise, but I don't see a feasible solution that's actually fair.


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[gettheleadout]

It is making a mess in a sense, but I guess adcoms all have their biases and the adcom that takes one side will implement his/her bias and the adcom on the other side will cancel out the bias. Most likely, the net effect is that the scores are all considered as nothing more than scores, with no influences considered. I don't know, maybe top tier schools have to search for tiny factors when picking 1% out of thousands.

Good points.

I just don't like it.


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[Si Se Puede]

I'm saying undermine, and you've just made my point. What "appears" to be a more difficult route, though nobody knows what's difficult for different people. Different classes, different schedules, different tests are harder for different people. How can you possibly know without making assumptions that justify viewing people's identical achievements in different contexts? I would definitely hope the bonus stays small, but I just don't see the point. I understand the premise, but I don't see a feasible solution that's actually fair.


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You are right, nobody can know the truth of tests/schedules/etc. People do try their best to account for the differences (MCAT says it tries to adjust scoring system, blah blah, although I don't really believe it but the scores do turn out realtively close; adcoms try to assess course rigor to the best of their abilities). And the solution isn't really fair, but it is what it is

I actually didn't know adcoms actually even had the notion of a bias like this until this thread but like you say the premise is not totally illogical and I do support it to some extent, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Rankik]

Hi LizzyM, first off thanks for answering all these questions

First off, how do I become a 00 agent? I would need a step by step guide, and it has to be for an international application, as I am not British.

On a more serious note, do admissions pay much attention to the number of hours a student takes per semester? I have had some periods as a part time student due to my wife having a child and having to spend more time at home to help raise the child, while at the same time working full time. I'm just curious if it is something that would have to be explained.

Secondly I had a question in regards to listing tutoring experience. The tutoring I have done has been become my main source of income, thus I know it would not be classified as volunteering, as I am charging for the service. However I do see it as a very valuable experience, and one that I really enjoy, being able to help a student that is failing a class to boosting their confidence and grade in the A/B range. Would this be seen as a major plus or just a minor as it is a form of employment?

Lastly, do you get many applicants that know 3+ languages? Just curious, as I am currently learning Japanese as my third one, out of the pure joy and interest in knowing the language and culture of Japan. Would be interesting to have interviews in all three, haha Though I'm not sure how good/confident I would be in Japanese by the time I would apply, I might just list my two native languages at that point, and Japanese as an EC.

 

[ur2l8]

Do you know if the Jesuit/Catholic affiliated schools show any preference for Catholic applicants? What if you have church volunteer experience?

 

[LizzyM]

Hi,

I'm still in a jiffy due to my stiff schedule. Thanks.



------------------
I plan to take the traditional, non-gap year route. But I meant assuming all other things being equal, and that Orgo 2 on the MCAT is not a concern for me, would ADCOMs really care that my Orgo 2 is delayed? I plan on taking Anat/Phys instead my junior year because the MCAT barely has any Orgo 2 questions anyways.

P.S. What really is the difference between a 10 12 14 vs a 12 12 12 MCAT score?

It might be noted but might not be a concern if your gpa is avg for that school and you did well (A- or better) in Orgo 1.

My school looks at total MCAT and not so much at the breakdown so a 36 is a 36. However, the percentiles of the subscores would be different if the subscores are different. That only matters to me if the percentile range is not at or above the 50th percentile in one or more subscores.

 

[helpingfriend]

Hi LizzyM,

A friend of mine wanted to know whether non URM Latinos and Hispanics such as Cuban and Peruvian applicants are compared to other non URM Latinos and Hispanics or are compared to non Hispanic whites in regards to the admissions process.

Thanks

 

[LizzyM]

1) Would an intro to research class count as research experience? We first learn some basic techniques, and then begin working on our own research projects, but we have exams, etc. We also have the opportunity to publish our work (of course if we find results).

I have seen people list an activity on their transcript in the experience section as well. This includes research, shadowing and non-clinical volunteering in prisons and homeless shelters among other things. Go for it.

2) Would teaching your own seminar type course count as leadership, and would mentoring and tutoring an "at risk" high school student count as leadership?

I would count both as teaching/tutoring which has its own category on the AMCAS which should tell you that it is important to at least some schools. If you are tutoring "at risk" youth as a charitable work, you could tag that as "volunteer, non-clinical" is you wanted to highlight the charitable nature of the work rather than the tutoring angle.

Leadership usually means organizing and motivating peers toward a common goal. I don't see many applicants with "leadership" listed and, frankly, it isn't a high priority, at least at my school.

3) Finally, is volunteering abroad for around two or three weeks worth anything in the eyes of the adcoms? I am asking this out of pure curiousity; it is not like my decision to do this will depend on whether or not adcoms like this or not, but I am curious.

Not as much as it used to be. These trips are very common and there are some concerns. See http://jglobalhealth.org/article/do...m-improve-the-health-of-communities-abroad-3/

 

[LizzyM]

I do know that Mormon Returned Missionaries who serve two year missions are greatly sought after by some medical schools because they have served for two years. I also know that some dental schools - like Creighton - take in mainly Mormon students. But I suspect that elsewhere there is a great deal of discrimination against Mormons who have NOT served any missions. Would you agree with this assessment when it comes to medical school admissions? Is it risky to recommend to our students to accept BYU's invitations for this reason?

Sometimes I hear surprise that a male applicant who has been engaged in his ward (Mormon equivalent of a congregation) has not done a mission and I recall asking an applicant about it just out of curiousity and his answer was very good and was not in any way used to discriminate against him.

BYU is a good school and I don't make the assumption that all of its students are Mormon, or really care if they are or aren't. I wouldn't discourage a student who wanted to attend BYU as a summer student or otherwise to do so.

 

[LizzyM]

This.

Please remember - many times an adcom will sound all tough to make their themselves look good.

I applied to U of Colorado - my undergrad and home state. I had asked a member of the adcom about lack of significant leadership experience. His reply was "we want future leaders in medicine." I just LOL'd - as U of Colorado interviews nearly all its in-state residents, and admits half of those it interviews. So not very rigorous!

Really??

The stats for matriculants from Colorado and California are nearly identical.
https://www.aamc.org/download/161700/data/table21.pdf

Colorado's med school had 600 instate applicants in 2011 and matriculated 112 (70% of the class is in-state). There were 644 applicants from the state of Colorado and 255 matriculated meaning that < 40% got in somewhere. That's below the national average.

 

[LizzyM]

I have a couple of questions regarding research.

I just got a research position for the next 2.5 years from my university's medical school. Would doing cancer research for the medical school be favored compared to doing regular biology research in the undergrad part of the school? Or would it just look the same.

I'd be committed for 2.5 years to this lab (1.5 years when I apply) and was wondering if that would be frowned upon. Would medical schools see that I only focused on cancer research for the next 2.5 years and think it was bad that I didn't explore any other research areas? I'm really interested in cancer research but I don't want medical schools to think that I'm not well rounded by the fact that I'd only be doing that kind of research.

Thanks for the help

What you have planned if fine. The longer you are in a lab, the more you learn and the more responsibility you can have. Be sure to get a LOR from your PI and mentally practice describing your response to the question "tell me about your research" at a level that would be understandable to a layperson as well as to a physician or a scientist. You may be asked at the interview to describe your research one way or another and you will be assessed not only on what you've done but how well you communicate complex scientific concepts.

 

[LizzyM]

You gives us answers and they inspire more questions Thank you for all of your time!

1) Will you share what else you know about the study habits of these 40 MCATs? Did they start studying for each section after they took the corresponding pre req? Anything unique?

One said, "I prepped for 4 years". These most successful applicants say that they took many practice tests. Most took a course or enrolled in a course to get the prep books. Another tip "don't stress out".

Another applicant who didn't have a 40+ but who did very well said that you have to understand the questions and I think that you have a very good example from the physics section posted above. If you can think critically and answer that question without "doing the math" you are going to work through the material much faster and have the time to answer more questions correctly.

2) If a school requires a class like biochem for their med apps, can you apply in June and leave the app pending (like you can for MCAT) until you finish the course in Aug through Summer session? Or would that be frowned upon?

I have no idea. You might ask on the school specific board of what successful applicants to that school have done.

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM! This question came to me very recently and I wanted to throw it in though I said I already asked my *final questions*.

I'm really interested in pediatrics and a lot of activities that I have been involved with have been kid focused. I try to actively interact with children in both the clinical/non-clinical activities. I recently started work on my PS so I've decided to really highlight my enthusiasm for working with children and show how I matured from being a directionless ug to a more focused post-grad.

Would having this angle on my PS automatically lock me out of some schools?
Would talking about my interest in pediatric care be too specific and make some schools hesitant? FYI, I plan on sweeping the low to mid tier MD list.

Appreciate your advice LizzyM.

If you are interested in providing medical care to children as either a primary care provider or as a specialist, don't be afraid to say so. You have "walked the walk" with your child-focused activities and so what you are saying about your career goals rings true.

 

[Jas1360]

It is possible. I graduated from a Colorado high school - so I automatically count instate for U of Colorado.

I have been working in Nebraska for a year - so I also count as Nebraska resident. AMCAS does not limit you to one home state - it is up to the school to individually decide if you count as a resident.

That being said - my mother works in Illinois, my father works in Ohio - if I get added to their tax forms - then Woila! A 3rd and 4th home state for me.

Colorado, Nebraska, Ohio, and Illinois all instate schools for me - aren't those great odds?

Seriously, are you sure about how long the Colorado residency status lasts?

 

[LizzyM]

Obviously the test is coachable/trainable/whatever, but where do you want to start drawing lines in the sand comparing scores?<snip>
The MCAT is the equalizer, so why try to muddy the waters? People take whatever initiative they choose to research and prepare for the test, allot their time however they can or want, and this should be recognized as a requisite part of submitting your score to medical schools. You don't think your score is representative of your ability? Don't submit it. Why should an adcom assume it isn't?

We know that the test is coachable and we know that access to coaching takes resources that are not evenly distributed across the population of pre-meds.

Some adcom members and some adcoms will give some benefit of the doubt to applicants who come from low-resource situations. We do prefer applicants who have "high numbers" but we recognize that a relatively low MCAT (~26) is as good as a higher score (>26) if your metric is completion of med school in 4 years. So, you will see some nuances as adcoms assess applicants.

 

[alNasir]

Sorry for the double post. On the next page.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM, first off thanks for answering all these questions

First off, how do I become a 00 agent? I would need a step by step guide, and it has to be for an international application, as I am not British.

On a more serious note, do admissions pay much attention to the number of hours a student takes per semester? I have had some periods as a part time student due to my wife having a child and having to spend more time at home to help raise the child, while at the same time working full time. I'm just curious if it is something that would have to be explained.

It might be noted. It would also be noted that you have listed employment in the experience section that corresponds with the same time frame.

Secondly I had a question in regards to listing tutoring experience. The tutoring I have done has been become my main source of income, thus I know it would not be classified as volunteering, as I am charging for the service. However I do see it as a very valuable experience, and one that I really enjoy, being able to help a student that is failing a class to boosting their confidence and grade in the A/B range. Would this be seen as a major plus or just a minor as it is a form of employment?

You can list this as employment, non-military and if it is your livelihood, that might be the best tag as your title "tutor" explains what you do without needing the "teaching/tutoring" tag. Tutoring requires strong communication skiils and so it can be a plus.

Lastly, do you get many applicants that know 3+ languages? Just curious, as I am currently learning Japanese as my third one, out of the pure joy and interest in knowing the language and culture of Japan. Would be interesting to have interviews in all three, haha Though I'm not sure how good/confident I would be in Japanese by the time I would apply, I might just list my two native languages at that point, and Japanese as an EC.

I wouldn't suggest adding Japanese as an experience. There is a section of the application to list each language one knows and a self-assessment of your skill level from fair (or poor?) up to native/near-native. (AMCAS has a definition of each fluency category). I see some applicants with three languages or more, many with two.

 

[LizzyM]

Do you know if the Jesuit/Catholic affiliated schools show any preference for Catholic applicants? What if you have church volunteer experience?

I don't know. I know that Georgetown puts a pretty big emphasis on their Jesuit philosophy of "care for the entire person" and being sure that applicants are on-board with that philosophy.

If you've been of service to others, most adcoms, not just Jesuit adcoms, are going to take notice of that experience.

 

[ilikevegetables]

Seriously, are you sure about how long the Colorado residency status lasts?

Some schools allow you to pay in-state tuition if you graduated from a high school in that state, even if you are now technically a resident of a different state. Not sure if that helps you get their in-state preference for admission, though.