Average Board Scores of each school?

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Nookular

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Does anyone know a resource that lists all med schools and what their average board scores are? Several schools I visited shared the numbers, so I'm assuming it is out there somewhere. I tried google and old SDN posts, and there was a thread from 2005 where people couldn't find it, but I'm hoping something has surfaced since then.
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Nookular said:
Does anyone know a resource that lists all med schools and what their average board scores are? Several schools I visited shared the numbers, so I'm assuming it is out there somewhere. I tried google and old SDN posts, and there was a thread from 2005 where people couldn't find it, but I'm hoping something has surfaced since then.
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Pretty sure this doesn't exist. Purposefully.
 
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University of Michigan advertises theirs (step 1 - 235, step 2 - 239.46). Maybe other schools do, too.

With second looks coming, I bet we could compile a good list here.
 
MedRower said:
University of Michigan advertises theirs (step 1 - 235, step 2 - 239.46). Maybe other schools do, too.

With second looks coming, I bet we could compile a good list here.
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It's true some do, but most don't. Also, it has been tried numerous times and has failed miserably time and time again.
 
LizzyM said:
This information is about as useful as compiling a list of US colleges and looking at avg MCAT for each undergrad institution.
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Blade28 said:
It's kind of like picking a gym based on how many fit, buff people are there working out. Do you have a chance to also become fit and buff? Sure. Do gyms with lots of fit, buff people mean there's something inherently "superior" about that gym? Not necessarily.
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Words of wisdom, folks...straight from the mouth of a med school admin and a resident.
 
LizzyM said:
This information is about as useful as compiling a list of US colleges and looking at avg MCAT for each undergrad institution.
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And it's just as interesting. We all like these statistics because even if they are largely meaningless, at least they are illusions based on truth (as opposed to illusions with no real basis). Kind of the same reason we eat potato chips. Okay, now I'm starting to become pretentious with my analogies :p
 
UF averages a 235 with nearly 20% getting >250...


...cue fight-to-the-death between UF/UWash/UMich/UCSF/UCLA/UNC for best public medical school:D
 
fizzle said:
at least they are illusions based on truth (as opposed to illusions with no real basis).
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Actually they are illusions based on lies. If you look at other board score discussion threads, you will see that SDNers have heard pretty much EVERY med school claim "above average" board scores. Some are lying, or at least intentionally using different parameters (looking over a period of years, not including failures, etc). So it is an illusion based on lies. And not a statistic that will help you get to the desired result anyhow. All med schools cover pretty much the same information equally well, all med students use the same board review books, FA, the same qbanks. Work ethic, memory and innate intelligence are going to separate out the high scores from the low one more than any effect of your med school. If a school has higher board scores in fact, then it most likely did a good job in admitting people with the innate abilities to do well, not that it added much to the equation. You are as likely to score 270 coming from Harvard as from your state school - because you will still be you regardless. This is a very individualized task.
 
MedRower said:
University of Michigan advertises theirs (step 1 - 235, step 2 - 239.46). Maybe other schools do, too.

With second looks coming, I bet we could compile a good list here.
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Such a list is done on SDN every year and there are always questionable reports, and too many schools above average to believe the scores. When there's no way to check, schools take liberties, particularly by reporting "differently". Are they giving a current score or an average over years? Are they including failures or retakes? You cannot know. And everyplace has an incentive to sound good. Ignore this kind of data. You will make better decisions without it.


The one thing that might be useful to look at, and might have a real impact on YOUR score, is which schools give ample time to study for the boards versus those that don't. You'll want 6 weeks or more. Some schools reportedly give less than this. A list of which ones these are might be of value.
 
SoFlaKnight said:
...cue fight-to-the-death between UF/UWash/UMich/UCSF/UCLA/UNC for best public medical school
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That's exactly the attitude that we're trying to avoid, particularly from someone who has never attended medical school nor taken the USMLE.

To the OP: no such list exists. Many school zealously hide that information---for what reason, I can't say. If you want to get an idea of what the STEP I score might be, look at the average MCAT score. Students who do well on standardized exams such as the SAT and MCAT will typically do well on the USMLE, too.
 
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deuist said:
Many school zealously hide that information---for what reason, I can't say. If you want to get an idea of what the STEP I score might be, look at the average MCAT score. Students who do well on standardized exams such as the SAT and MCAT will typically do well on the USMLE, too.
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Well, schools are all collectively in cohoots to keep that score under wraps out of concern that it will tie their hands in terms of curricula changes. Schools will be reluctant to try new things, eg PBL, more clinical correlations etc, if they are going to be under a microscope in terms of how this affects their scores (real or imagined). So schools don't release this info. Which is probably a smart thing because of how the scores will be misused (and how they are already misused for residency selection, which is why the USMLE people are contemplating a revamping).

In terms of looking at MCAT, I'm not sure this represents a great use of statistics. There are studies indicating a correlation of MCAT to USMLE but it is a modest correlation. meaning that for every dozen people who do much better than average on the MCAT, a few will also perhaps do much better than average on the USMLE. There is no score for score or one for one correlation demonstrated. Many people who do well on MCAT do poorly on boards and vice versa -- statistics just look at averages, and if the average skews a certain way, there is a correlation. But in a pool of 15,000 med students, it's pretty conceivable that a given school of 150 will show absolutely no correlation between it's MCAT score and USMLE.

Also there are issues with the study I have seen, given that both tests have changed significantly several times since the last study, the study was done on a small fraction of med students and schools (there are many more of both today), the study was done with far fewer women, minorities and nontrads than are representative in medicine today and so on. Hard to get excited about the correlation to the point that I would base a career decision on it. But that's my two cents.
 
You won't find a website, other than community-based websites such as SDN, to list those requirements. Mainly because these people can make money off of this stuff.

There's this book that I bought, about two years ago, called "Medical School Admission Requirements". This is a wonderful book that lists all the requirements of each med school in the US and Canada, and even the statistics of how many people got into that school with each GPA and MCAT score. It also lists a couple of more useful information, such tuition, days before sending a reply to an applicant, etc.

The book, I believe I bought for $30-$60 about 2 years ago. However, the book is dated for 2007-2008 use. I don't think I can go through the 150+ schools on there and list them here, but if you have any requests for a school that you're interested in, just let me know and I'll post up what I can.
 
Omni said:
There's this book that I bought, about two years ago, called "Medical School Admission Requirements". This is a wonderful book that lists all the requirements of each med school in the US and Canada, and even the statistics of how many people got into that school with each GPA and MCAT score. It also lists a couple of more useful information, such tuition, days before sending a reply to an applicant, etc.

The book, I believe I bought for $30-$60 about 2 years ago.
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Given the cost of secondary applications, if buying a copy of the MSAR provides you the information necessary to cut even one school from your list (because you've got no chance there), it has paid for itself.
 
Im not suggesting to NOT apply even if you don't have a chance. This book gives you a good ball park area for each med school so that you have a good idea of where you have a better chance of applying. Its not like taking a shot in the dark.
 
Omni said:
Im not suggesting to NOT apply even if you don't have a chance. This book gives you a good ball park area for each med school so that you have a good idea of where you have a better chance of applying. Its not like taking a shot in the dark.
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I'm not sure your book is responsive to the question about board scores though. MCAT is an admissions criteria. Board scores are a residency/licensing criteria. No book is going to contain board scores as they are not made public.
 
fizzle said:
And it's just as interesting. We all like these statistics because even if they are largely meaningless, at least they are illusions based on truth (as opposed to illusions with no real basis). Kind of the same reason we eat potato chips. Okay, now I'm starting to become pretentious with my analogies :p
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But still an illusion (and the truth of it is questionable, as others have brought up). Most pre-meds just want more "evidence" to convince them to go to one school over another. Even if such a thing makes absolutely no difference in the long run, people will still manage to convince themselves it does. It's just a comfort blanket for their choice, with no real benefit.

Law2Doc said:
Actually they are illusions based on lies. If you look at other board score discussion threads, you will see that SDNers have heard pretty much EVERY med school claim "above average" board scores. Some are lying, or at least intentionally using different parameters (looking over a period of years, not including failures, etc). So it is an illusion based on lies. And not a statistic that will help you get to the desired result anyhow. All med schools cover pretty much the same information equally well, all med students use the same board review books, FA, the same qbanks. Work ethic, memory and innate intelligence are going to separate out the high scores from the low one more than any effect of your med school. If a school has higher board scores in fact, then it most likely did a good job in admitting people with the innate abilities to do well, not that it added much to the equation. You are as likely to score 270 coming from Harvard as from your state school - because you will still be you regardless. This is a very individualized task.
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I'm not sure about this, but does the "average USMLE" score include DO and foreign/carribean graduates? If so, that might at least partially explain why most US MD schools claim "above average."
 
Rooter76 said:
I'm not sure about this, but does the "average USMLE" score include DO and foreign/carribean graduates? If so, that might at least partially explain why most US MD schools claim "above average."
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Yeah I would assume schools define their stats however it makes them look best, and allows them to tell the line with a straight face. At any rate you can't get reliable data, the schools would just as soon students not use this data (to not tie their hands curriculum-wise), and it's not good data to be using in admissions anyhow so steer clear of it and you are better off. One less thing to fret about is a good thing.
 
Given that the average for STEP I this year was 217, I would imagine that most schools boast above average scores. I remember one Caribbean student posted on SDN last year with the statement that his school's average pass rate was higher than the national average. Well I hope it would be...
 
deuist said:
Given that the average for STEP I this year was 217, I would imagine that most schools boast above average scores. I remember one Caribbean student posted on SDN last year with the statement that his school's average pass rate was higher than the national average. Well I hope it would be...
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Pass rate and passing scores are different things. US allo schools usually boast a pass rate in the 90%+ range. Average scores for US school first time takers as you indicated are around 217. Most caribbean schools do not have 90%+ of their students pass, and those that do usually mastermind this by cherrypicking who gets to take the test by requiring certain hurdles internally to be surpassed before eligible to sit for the test. So sure some offshore schools can engineer pass rates higher than the US national average if they only let good students take the test.
As far as most schools having better than average scores, it is mathematically impossible. Yet too many schools claim it. They may be factoring in foreign schools that don't cherrypick, or they may be omitting folks from their school who have to retake. Either way the unaudited claims from the schools are too suspect to use.
 
I meant that of the students who passed, their average score was higher than the national average. Once the school eliminated the large percentage of people who failed, the rest seemed to have a high score.

I didn't mean to cause confusion as if the Caribbean students were 100% passing the boards.
 
deuist said:
That's exactly the attitude that we're trying to avoid, particularly from someone who has never attended medical school nor taken the USMLE.

To the OP: no such list exists. Many school zealously hide that information---for what reason, I can't say. If you want to get an idea of what the STEP I score might be, look at the average MCAT score. Students who do well on standardized exams such as the SAT and MCAT will typically do well on the USMLE, too.
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Whenever you're done studying for boards, I suggest fine tuning your sarcasm detector...Just a suggestion;)

amwatts0322 said:
I find that hard to believe, lol
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I didn't believe it either...till I saw the statistical data handout myself at my interview (as of June 2007 c/o '09)

Law2Doc said:
Pass rate and passing scores are different things. US allo schools usually boast a pass rate in the 90%+ range. Average scores for US school first time takers as you indicated are around 217. Most caribbean schools do not have 90%+ of their students pass, and those that do usually mastermind this by cherrypicking who gets to take the test by requiring certain hurdles internally to be surpassed before eligible to sit for the test. So sure some offshore schools can engineer pass rates higher than the US national average if they only let good students take the test.
As far as most schools having better than average scores, it is mathematically impossible. Yet too many schools claim it. They may be factoring in foreign schools that don't cherrypick, or they may be omitting folks from their school who have to retake. Either way the unaudited claims from the schools are too suspect to use.
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That's very interesting insight...I always thought the #'s posted by some of those offshore schools had some form of manufacturing plastered to them.
 
Keck is like 230-240 or something.
 
ca863335 said:
Honestly, can you seriously have Florida on that list?
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I was apparently not clear enough on my level of facetiousness for that grouping...However, I think that if you take into account rankings in Research; Primary Care; hospital affiliations; regional recognition; stats of incoming class; Step I & II scores; residency match lists; insert blank merit ad nauseum you would be hard pressed to say that, while not necessarily neck and neck, they weren't all in the same ballpark.

With that said, cue individual school ****-waving:rolleyes:
 
SoFlaKnight said:
I didn't believe it either...till I saw the statistical data handout myself at my interview (as of June 2007 c/o '09)


quote]
well thats really impressive, with that many ppl scoring above 250.
Click to expand...
 
Law2Doc said:
So it is an illusion based on lies. And not a statistic that will help you get to the desired result anyhow. All med schools cover pretty much the same information equally well, all med students use the same board review books, FA, the same qbanks. Work ethic, memory and innate intelligence are going to separate out the high scores from the low one more than any effect of your med school. If a school has higher board scores in fact, then it most likely did a good job in admitting people with the innate abilities to do well, not that it added much to the equation.
Click to expand...

Well said. :thumbup:
 
SoFlaKnight said:
UF averages a 235 with nearly 20% getting >250...


...cue fight-to-the-death between UF/UWash/UMich/UCSF/UCLA/UNC for best public medical school:D
Click to expand...

I find it hard to believe that UF is included on that list.
UNC already barely makes the cut to be competing for the "best public medical school" and UF is just so far off that list.
 
Law2Doc said:
In terms of looking at MCAT, I'm not sure this represents a great use of statistics. There are studies indicating a correlation of MCAT to USMLE but it is a modest correlation. meaning that for every dozen people who do much better than average on the MCAT, a few will also perhaps do much better than average on the USMLE. There is no score for score or one for one correlation demonstrated. Many people who do well on MCAT do poorly on boards and vice versa -- statistics just look at averages, and if the average skews a certain way, there is a correlation. But in a pool of 15,000 med students, it's pretty conceivable that a given school of 150 will show absolutely no correlation between it's MCAT score and USMLE.
Click to expand...

Actually, the MCAT was found to be the strongest predictor of Step 1 and 2 scores, and it wasn't modest (see here). Naturally, it is not going to be a one-to-one relationship. But seriously, that's no excuse for avoiding statistics all together.

MCAT alone had a validity coefficient of .71, meaning that 50% of variation in Step 1 scores (.71 squared) is attributable solely to MCAT score. Age, race, uGPA, and school prestige could not predict better how well you would do.

Conceivable that it would have no correlation in each school? Yes. Reality? No.
 
patzan said:
Actually, the MCAT was found to be the strongest predictor of Step 1 and 2 scores, and it wasn't modest (see here). Naturally, it is not going to be a one-to-one relationship. But seriously, that's no excuse for avoiding statistics all together.

MCAT alone had a validity coefficient of .71, meaning that 50% of variation in Step 1 scores (.71 squared) is attributable solely to MCAT score. Age, race, uGPA, and school prestige could not predict better how well you would do.

Conceivable that it would have no correlation in each school? Yes. Reality? No.
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oh, you can't seriously consider a study done by AAMC who makes MCAT and in whose best interest it is to convince the public that MCAT is a great predictor of boards.
 
Last I checked, you could take the MCAT multiple times, but only the Step 1 once after you've passed. That hasn't changed, has it?

< /sarcasm>
 
amwatts0322 said:
lol, dont get me wrong UNC is a great school, but I wouldnt put it in the same category as UCSF, UCLA, UCSD, and UVA.
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I'm not a UNC student and am in no way attached to UNC, but why would UVA be there and UNC not?

And I'm going to take this chance to plug UTSW
 
Monarch Kong said:
I'm not a UNC student and am in no way attached to UNC, but why would UVA be there and UNC not?

And I'm going to take this chance to plug UTSW
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Its all opinion based. I have my top schools which may be completely different then others.
 
TheRealMD said:
Last I checked, you could take the MCAT multiple times, but only the Step 1 once after you've passed. That hasn't changed, has it?

< /sarcasm>
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yeah, but there's no "passing" the MCAT either...
 
bodonid said:
yeah, but there's no "passing" the MCAT either...
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The point is taking the test multiple times inflates the reported average score.
 
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