Average board scores

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woodlayer

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Is there somewhere that lists all the average board scores for each med school?

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No, but there is a thread hanging around somewhere where people have listed a lot of the top schools averages.
 
Their alleged averages, at least.
 
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I can't even find them on the schools websites
 
Don't bother, they're all above the national average. :laugh:

Seriously, that's what they'll tell you. Plus, who the hell cares what the average board scores are? That's like saying, my undergrad has an average MCAT of 33. Does that mean a damn thing for you when you take the MCAT? No! The boards come down to you and not the school, so even if you could find the averages it wouldn't matter.
 
look it took less than 5 posts to get lectured on how worthless board scores are...OP too bad you didn't ask as a side note *"and are they worth anything?"
 
The part that does matter is, if a certain professor is terrible at teaching anatomy or histology, the average step score will depress for that section.

However, I can't think of many other situations in which the school's score should reflect yours.

I can see how have a higher average step score will mean classes are more competitive and it's higher to get a high grade, though.
 
The part that does matter is, if a certain professor is terrible at teaching anatomy or histology, the average step score will depress for that section.

Even this is not a valid reason as in most medical schools there are multiple teachers for each class (Honestly, often 10+ per class). Enough that a dip in a score could not possibly be pinned on one teacher.

Also, schools all tweak their posted averages, making comparisons between schools impossible. They also won't tell you how they tweaked them. Did they average retakes, or count the highest? Did they include those who failed, or only those who passed? It's like trying to compare pre-meds' GPAs, only some are calculated for application to MD school and some for DO school, and you don't know which are which.
 
Also, schools all tweak their posted averages...
Not true. Of course, any school that posts their unrefined results risks being negatively viewed by applicants who fall for the inflated averages posted by other schools. But there are schools who post their averages with 100% transparency.
 
Seriously, that's what they'll tell you. Plus, who the hell cares what the average board scores are? That's like saying, my undergrad has an average MCAT of 33. Does that mean a damn thing for you when you take the MCAT? No! The boards come down to you and not the school, so even if you could find the averages it wouldn't matter.

QFT. Being surrounded by people who could potentially get awesome board scores doesn't mean you will somehow get great board scores by association. :cool: (love this smiley)
 
You guys did an awful job answering my question. Yes, I know board scores are up to the student, but also some schools help you prepare for them better.

I hate to sound crass, but most people answer questions around here horribly. They side step them and give you some weird answer, like "board scores are inflated" or some off base cutsy answer like "it all depends on the student". Truth is, if you go to a school with higher board score averages, you will more than likely perform better because of better preperation.
 
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You guys did an awful job answering my question. Yes, I know board scores are up to the student, but also some schools help you prepare for them better.

I hate to sound crass, but most people answer questions around here horribly. They side step them and give you some weird answer, like "board scores are inflated" or some off base cutsy answer like "it all depends on the student". Truth is, if you go to a school with higher board score averages, you will more than likely perform better because of better preperation.

I will side-step your question also, but I just wanted to say that what you're implying is incorrect. Schools have very little to do with it and there is no correlation to higher average scores meaning that schools have better preparation. Most medical students will have forgotten large sections of step 1 by the time they're about to study for it. Do you really think you will remember the biochemistry you studied during the first year by the time board studying rolls around? Unlikely! You will be re-learning this stuff when you are studying for boards (although it will be quicker to than the first time since you've seen it before). Most medical students will read through some review books (not sure what's good now, but Goljan and BRS were gospel when I took it) and go through a question bank (usmle world, kaplan, usmlerx, etc.). The amount of time and energy you put into doing that determines your grade. Well that and how good at test taking you are because just like the MCAT, SATs, you need to work under time constraints and know what the question maker is "thinking." Really your school is largely irrelevant in this process - they are just there to lay the foundation. Even Caribbean school students historically do well because they put the time and effort into studying for it, in spite of the fact that their schools do not provide the same level of education.
 
You guys did an awful job answering my question. Yes, I know board scores are up to the student, but also some schools help you prepare for them better.

I hate to sound crass, but most people answer questions around here horribly. They side step them and give you some weird answer, like "board scores are inflated" or some off base cutsy answer like "it all depends on the student". Truth is, if you go to a school with higher board score averages, you will more than likely perform better because of better preperation.

I hate to sound crass, but since you did too I guess I can take the kid gloves off.

You asked a dumb question. Not only that, but a dumb question that has been asked 1000 times on this board. 1 minute on google would show you that there is no central listing of board scores from the schools. 5 minutes searching on this site would provide you with many many threads on this topic and several compiled lists of scores of varying degrees of accuracy.
 
I hate to tell you that just because something is not easy to find on google does not mean it doesn't exist. Take for instance the whole MSAR book. I also searched the forums and found nothing on this.

So how exactly is it a dumb question? Seems extremely important to me. If 2 schools I were accepted had signficantly different board averages, I think that would be important, don't you?

I'm just asking a question here, and it seems weird that school board averages are not posted. I also think it is weird for people on here to get heated about this question. There is no reason to think your school is inferior because of lower board scores. You problably chose it for different reasons

Better take those gloves off, don't want anyone to get hurt.
 
I'm just asking a question here, and it seems weird that school board averages are not posted.

No it doesn't seem weird. Schools are not required to release them, so they often don't. They don't want this to be a metric for comparison; they also don't want to start an escalating arms race of schools "teaching for the boards"

I also think it is weird for people on here to get heated about this question.

People get heated anytime a new poster asks a question that could easily be answered using the search function. Especially when it's a question that has been beaten to death time and time again. It shows that you haven't taken any time/effort to familiarize yourself with the board. An old adage is "read more, post less"

There is no reason to think your school is inferior because of lower board scores.

My school's board scores are above the national average. :rolleyes:
 
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I hate to tell you that just because something is not easy to find on google does not mean it doesn't exist. Take for instance the whole MSAR book. I also searched the forums and found nothing on this.

So how exactly is it a dumb question? Seems extremely important to me. If 2 schools I were accepted had signficantly different board averages, I think that would be important, don't you?

I'm just asking a question here, and it seems weird that school board averages are not posted. I also think it is weird for people on here to get heated about this question. There is no reason to think your school is inferior because of lower board scores. You problably chose it for different reasons

Better take those gloves off, don't want anyone to get hurt.

I guess you didn't read my post so I'll say it again. If two schools had significantly different board averages, it still does not matter. Board scores are almost entirely dependent on the student. The reason why different schools do differently on the boards is because of the students they selected for their classes. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not taken them yet. The ONLY difference I can see between schools is the amount of time they give you to study, but as long as they give you a month, then that's enough.

The only reason why schools say their "average board score" is because premeds think it's important. It's not, at all.
 
OP- I'll tell you Dartmouth's 3rd-years had an "alleged" average score of 237. FWIW.

School-specific curriculum does, to an extent, affect board scores. For example, someone mentioned how you are most likely to forget first-year biochemistry by the time Step 1 comes around. This is very true. However, if your school has a more traditional curriculum vs. a block schedule, you'll have seen the material a little more recently.

A school with heavy PBL can *possibly* help you as it seems the Step 1s these days are increasingly based on "clinical vignettes."

A 16-month preclinical curriculum vs. a 24-month preclinical curriculum can have advantages and disadvantages that affect us individually. Are you the kind of person for whom the jumpstart on clinical rotations will help you synthesize material so you're more ready for the "vignettes"? Or are you the kind of person who likes to hit the books harder than most before an exam?

I could go on and on...in any case, if the adcoms are worth their salt, they can find candidates who would most likely excel within their school's specific style of teaching.
 
well I am very happy for you :clap:

but in all seriousness, schools post their average mcat scores and gpa, why not board scores? Med school is an arms race. It is called competition, and all schools are competing for higher scores, better students, and above all else more money.

As I expressed earlier, this is not easy to find, and I will answer my question now that I know the answer:

No, there is no compilation of average board scores for med schools. Individual schools may release the info., but are not required to.

That is all I was asking. You didn't need to get all upset buddy. If you thought my thread wasn't important you could have chosen not to post. It sad to think a future doctor lacks the ability to reason logically. Ya, that was low, but I don't care. The majority of people on these forums deserve to be knocked down a few pegs.
 
t. It sad to think a future doctor lacks the ability to reason logically. Ya, that was low, but I don't care. The majority of people on these forums deserve to be knocked down a few pegs.

I am actually trying to give you helpful advice here, you just don't seem to like it.

You've now made yet another terrible board faux pas...the "you'll be a terrible doctor" defense.
 
I said it was low, didn't I?

You are not giving good advice. You say that it is the student that gets the board score and NOTHING else. I say that the school influences the student. I am right here. To say the school does nolt influence the student is just insane.

I asked for board scores bc I believe it to be a good factor for deciding a school. I do not need info about whether it is a good indicator or not. My reasoning is fine.
 
You are not giving good advice. You say that it is the student that gets the board score and NOTHING else. I say that the school influences the student. I am right here. To say the school does nolt influence the student is just insane.

I asked for board scores bc I believe it to be a good factor for deciding a school. I do not need info about whether it is a good indicator or not. My reasoning is fine.

Actually, if you read my posts, I've said nothing about the utility of board scores. Don't conflate my opinions with those of the others posting in this thread.

I said it was low, didn't I?

As for this...it's not that it's "low" - it's that it is the most absurd form of hyperbole you can jump to. You don't like my internet posting, therefore I'm a terrible doctor? It's laughable, and it makes others immediately take you less seriously.
 
You said I asked a dumb question, so if the "utility" of the scores is not the problem what is? The accessibility?

I just did another search and could not find the scores, so that can't be it. So what are you arguing here? Seems like nothing to me, seems like I asked a good question. Why are you posting then? Are you bored? Do you need a friend? I would love to here your arguement if you have one.
 
OP- I'll tell you Dartmouth's 3rd-years had an "alleged" average score of 237. FWIW.

School-specific curriculum does, to an extent, affect board scores. For example, someone mentioned how you are most likely to forget first-year biochemistry by the time Step 1 comes around. This is very true. However, if your school has a more traditional curriculum vs. a block schedule, you'll have seen the material a little more recently.

A school with heavy PBL can *possibly* help you as it seems the Step 1s these days are increasingly based on "clinical vignettes."

A 16-month preclinical curriculum vs. a 24-month preclinical curriculum can have advantages and disadvantages that affect us individually. Are you the kind of person for whom the jumpstart on clinical rotations will help you synthesize material so you're more ready for the "vignettes"? Or are you the kind of person who likes to hit the books harder than most before an exam?

I could go on and on...in any case, if the adcoms are worth their salt, they can find candidates who would most likely excel within their school's specific style of teaching.

I still have to disagree with this, and you won't understand until you take the step 1 for yourself. You bring up that different ways of teaching can affect you individually, then how does an average board score in any way reflect this? There may be advantages and disadvantages between a 16-month preclinical curriculum and a 24-month preclinical curriculum, but very little of it will affect how you do on your boards. A lot of step 1 is rote memorization, and even if you saw that information a few months prior, you are still going to have to go over it again and re-learn it during board studying. The MCAT analogy works very well for the boards. Do you attribute how you did on your MCATs to the institution you went to, or the time/effort (reading review books, doing questions, maybe taking a course) you put into studying for it.

I'm not trying to say that your school's curriculum has zero impact on how well you are prepared for the boards. Your school does provide your medical knowledge foundation. I'm just trying to say that the overwhelming components to good board scores are how much time and effort you put into studying for it and how good of a test taker you are, and very little of that is your school's curriculum.
 
Well it isn't it safe to say that if a schools board scores are significantly higher than anothers, it is a plus? For me it is. So lets stop debating this and try to answer my original question.
 
You said I asked a dumb question, so if the "utility" of the scores is not the problem what is? The accessibility?

I just did another search and could not find the scores, so that can't be it. So what are you arguing here? Seems like nothing to me, seems like I asked a good question. Why are you posting then? Are you bored? Do you need a friend? I would love to here your arguement if you have one.

Hey I think some of your responses to southernIM should be directed towards me because I've been talking about the utility of the scores. I apologize if I've been coming off as rude.

I've seen threads in the past comparing board scores, I'll try and dig them up for you. You're more than welcome to use board scores in determining where you want to go. You'll see, though, after taking them yourself, that this is probably one of the most wasteful ways of comparing schools.
 
Ya, dig them up, bc I can't find them! I don't think you are being rude, I jsut get annoyed at the way people shuffle around the answers to questions. Immagine if a studentdoc member worked at a convienent store.

customer- How much for this pack of gum?

student doc member- Well it really depends on what store you go to. Also, did you know that we have other packs of gum that are different prices, but do you really want those? I don't think the price matters bc they are all so close, so I would go and pick the gum that best suits you, but then again you may like all types of gums equally.....

customer- Can someone else help me?
 
I'm not looking for just the top schools though. I am looking for more schools around the middle. So it really doesn;t answer my question.

Here we go, arguement with another SDNER. Or can you just say, "oh my bad man?"
 
Be careful about evaluating the quality of education at a medical school based on board scores. Two schools may have identical avg. boards, but the students at school A may have a higher test-taking aptitude but had to cram because of poor preparation (and subsequently forgot most of the information they learned). Students at school B may have a had a lower test-taking aptitude but the material was well-presented and reinforced through the curriculum (and subsequently remembered a larger portion of the information tested compared to students from school A).
 
I'm not looking for just the top schools though. I am looking for more schools around the middle. So it really doesn;t answer my question.

Here we go, arguement with another SDNER. Or can you just say, "oh my bad man?"
So then the answer would be no, which he said. Although, the thread he's referring to isn't just for top schools, anyone who has heard a number associated with a school (regardless of the year) has posted. So there's a fair number of lower ranked schools with their alleged scores posted.

Argument? :laugh: Please. I'm just pointing out how wrong you are, no effort needed on my side to "argue" anything.
 
Hey I broke out my microscope, but I can't find where he said no. Maybe I need to get a new one. I am 1 min away from leaving these forums for good.
 
I'm paraphrasing but here is the jist from this paper. USMLE first time pass rates are pretty good at evaluating the qualtiy of medical education the mean score less so. In order for the mean to be meaningful it must be more than two standard deviations to not be a random fluctuation. So given that most schools don't release their standard deviation it is hard to draw meaningful conclusions even if you have their mean scores.

http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...BME_and_USMLE_examinations_to_evaluate.4.aspx

And a previous poster is correct the AAMC doesn't want schools to start teaching to the test that is why they don't have a composite list available. They post the MCAT score because few undergrad colleges will modify their courses to achieve higher MCAT averages.

I would say to give the school a call and ask. The worst they can say is no. Good luck in your USMLE score hunting.
 
Just when I am about to leave, not 1, but 2 helpful posts! Thanks guys, really appreciate this.
 
Ya, dig them up, bc I can't find them! I don't think you are being rude, I jsut get annoyed at the way people shuffle around the answers to questions. Immagine if a studentdoc member worked at a convienent store.

customer- How much for this pack of gum?

student doc member- Well it really depends on what store you go to. Also, did you know that we have other packs of gum that are different prices, but do you really want those? I don't think the price matters bc they are all so close, so I would go and pick the gum that best suits you, but then again you may like all types of gums equally.....

customer- Can someone else help me?

Except the analogy is more like:
Customer: Hey, can you provide me with a list of the percentage of cinnamon in each of the different brands of gums in America? I'm trying to decide which gum to buy.

Person who has no obligation to help you but tries to out of the goodness of their heart: Well I don't really know why you're looking at that information, but I think maybe I could find the info for some of the more popular brands of gum...

Customer: Actually, I'm only looking for these obscure brands.

Anyway, I digress. It is your decision to use Step 1 averages if you want to.

If the scores you're looking for aren't listed here
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102875, I think the only way to get the answer you're looking for is by going to the "manufacturer" (to continue the analogy) -- that is, you can try asking the school or some current students if the info is available. :luck:!
 
My analogy is way closer then yours Bobbieboy. You can spin it anyway you would like, but it doesn't make it true. Obscure brands, ya OSU and Baylor are obscure. I think I just got a migrane.

Also how are board scores not important? Maybe in your fantasy world where closeness to mommy and daddy gets you a better residency they wouldn't matter, and are equivalent to cinnamon concentration. But this is the real world. You get in residencies based off board scores, evaluations, and grades, not the "goodness of your oh so pure heart."

Once again, all I wanted was numbers, and I got them.
 
Board scores are important. I meant average board scores, especially in the context of using them as criteria for selecting a med school, is pointless.
 
To both of you, data is important. Why do schools pick students on grades and MCAT score? Bc they will more than likely succeed in med school. I guess they should just pick students based off of looks and personality.

Anyway, I couldn't find all my schools in either of those lists so I'm done here. Hopefully forever, bc finding an answer here is like pulling teeth. I hope med school students are for the most part completely different than the people on these boards. Good luck to you all and don't go to my school.
 
My analogy is way closer then yours Bobbieboy. You can spin it anyway you would like, but it doesn't make it true. Obscure brands, ya OSU and Baylor are obscure. I think I just got a migrane.

Also how are board scores not important? Maybe in your fantasy world where closeness to mommy and daddy gets you a better residency they wouldn't matter, and are equivalent to cinnamon concentration. But this is the real world. You get in residencies based off board scores, evaluations, and grades, not the "goodness of your oh so pure heart."

Once again, all I wanted was numbers, and I got them.

Yikes, I've never seen someone so worked up over a gum analogy before. I was only messing around, man, and was just trying to get at two points:

1) Unlike a customer service rep, people on this site don't have to help you -- so to complain and throw a fit when people don't answer your question is sort of silly

2) Some people (many of whom have been through the residency process) think that looking at step 1 averages for schools is pointless, while others (like you) think they're useful. That's fine, people are entitled to their own opinions and can choose schools based off whatever they want (in fact, I said this in my post). But whether it actually matters in the end...*shrug*

Anyway, good luck in your search
 
It sad to think a future doctor lacks the ability to reason logically. Ya, that was low, but I don't care. The majority of people on these forums deserve to be knocked down a few pegs.

I can't get my kid gloves off, but wanted to point a couple of things out (in a blatant fashion):

ANY BOARD SCORES YOU FIND IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN ARE AS LIKELY TO BE LIES AS THEY ARE TRUTH.

-this is an important factor to remember NO MATTER YOUR REASON (whether good or not) for wanting this information. If you want to compare the weapons your future school has at their disposal in this "great arms race" you might want to realize that this is not an accurate way to go about it AT ALL. Ignore this fact if you want, as I'll freely admit, you did not ask for it.

Also, the statement quoted above is flawed for one reason: patients who ask questions don't always know what they really need. It is a physician's responsibility to help educate patients in such a manner that they can make informed decisions of their own, but that will not happen if the doc becomes a dispenser of information alone. That would be called the internet, and self-diagnosis is usually a bad idea...

So in this light I would say that your fellow posters have your interest at heart. This is good logic on their part and they will be FANTASTIC doctors in the near future :).

It is your responsibility to now do what you want given that other information.

:luck: with your decisions!
 
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To both of you, data is important. Why do schools pick students on grades and MCAT score? Bc they will more than likely succeed in med school. I guess they should just pick students based off of looks and personality.

Anyway, I couldn't find all my schools in either of those lists so I'm done here. Hopefully forever, bc finding an answer here is like pulling teeth. I hope med school students are for the most part completely different than the people on these boards. Good luck to you all and don't go to my school.

Actually the MCAT more closer correlates with your USMLE step I score. So go to the school with the higher MCAT average. This guy....
 
lol, what a tool. Dude got so worked up over avg board scores. He must have forgotten that highly driven kids get into top schools and because of that same drive gives those top schools higher avg board scores. It really is an individual thing, your school doesn't play that big of a role.
 
I think he's about to spontaneously combust. I feel for the guy... and his future classmates. well, actually, his classmates might find him pathetically hilarious...
 
I still have to disagree with this, and you won't understand until you take the step 1 for yourself. You bring up that different ways of teaching can affect you individually, then how does an average board score in any way reflect this? There may be advantages and disadvantages between a 16-month preclinical curriculum and a 24-month preclinical curriculum, but very little of it will affect how you do on your boards. A lot of step 1 is rote memorization, and even if you saw that information a few months prior, you are still going to have to go over it again and re-learn it during board studying. The MCAT analogy works very well for the boards. Do you attribute how you did on your MCATs to the institution you went to, or the time/effort (reading review books, doing questions, maybe taking a course) you put into studying for it.

I'm not trying to say that your school's curriculum has zero impact on how well you are prepared for the boards. Your school does provide your medical knowledge foundation. I'm just trying to say that the overwhelming components to good board scores are how much time and effort you put into studying for it and how good of a test taker you are, and very little of that is your school's curriculum.

Ok, so I'm curious about something.

In theory, I totally agree that exam scores are based on your own performance, and everyone else's doesn't matter, and everyone uses the same books, etc. I also buy the "cream always rises to the top" theory where top schools have top students who have gotten top MCAT scores and are therefore top standardized test takers. Ok.

Now, I'm making the assumption that at least SOME of the scores in the list often-quoted here on SDN are accurate, + or - a few points. You may of course reject this assumption altogether, in which case my point is moot.

However, if you do accept that assumption, what do you think leads some schools to have dependably high averages every year? Sure, they tend to be the "top schools", but if you think about it, Wash U always has the super-bookish students with the absurd MCAT scores, and their step 1 average isn't the highest according to the list (which, again, may be inaccurate). If their students have the best chance of getting high scores to begin with, but other schools beat them more than once or twice, why do you think that is? (btw I'm absolutely not saying Wash U's averages are low or whatever, I'm just using the example of the biggest number-ho school)

Moreover, if a med school changes its curriculum at some point, and the new students of that curriculum have an average Step 1 score that's much higher than the year before's, can you still make the assumption that the curriculum played no part in that jump? Last year, when I was applying to schools and they had just changed their curriculum, their professors/deans/admission people always made comments like "we're waiting on the step 1 scores for the first people with the new curriculum to see how it's working out" or "we're confident that the changes will show up in higher step 1 scores", which means that the administration and faculty of the med school seem to believe they have a part in shaping those average scores.


Sorry for the long-winded point, but I guess I'm just wondering why the dogma is so much anti-curriculum here when my own common sense and people I've spoken to at various schools seem to disagree.
 
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