Away rotation information thread

[BigMotherKelly]

Hi everyone,

I'm posting to request details about experiences students had last year while on their away rotations, to help me and other PRS applicants pick the right programs for the upcoming season. Here are the questions I'm most interested in, and the programs I'd like to hear about the most, but please add any more information you think is important for us to know, as well as other institutions where you had a particularly good or bad experience.

Thanks,
BMK


QUESTIONS:
1. How many sub-I's at a time?
2. How much face time and OR time w attendings, especially the chief?
3. Expectations, hours, workload, and integration with the team?
4. What were your housing options, and how much did they cost?
5. Did you get many days/weekends off to explore the city and get a sense for what it would be like to live there, or did you work 24/7 for the entire month?


PROGRAMS:
1. Michigan
2. Penn
3. Yale
4. U.Washington
5. U.Chi
6. NW'ern
7. U.Wisconsin

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ctusfinest]

Great idea.
I'd love some information on the aways at Stanford, Mt. Sinai, UC-Irvine, WashU, UF-Gainsville, Ohio State

 

[rueby25]

I'd be happy to comment on UWisconsin

2 week rotation only, unless special permission otherwise.

1. Myself and one other visiting student. There were also 3rd year students on with us (2).

2. Daily interaction and OR time. Usually you followed one surgeon for the day (you read for you cases the night before, obviously), but there was often time at the end of the day when you could go see more cases with different surgeons. Bentz, the chair, makes himself very available. He meets with you before you start on day one, and you will operate with him several times. Know, however, that they rank in an egalitarian manner. One person, one vote, including residents. So resident fit and Facetime may be (is) as important as attending interactions.

3. The work philosophy for rotators is a bit different here. You round at UW hospital with the team every morning (weekdays) but prerounding is not allowed. You run the list (prep of list done by intern) then set off to surgeries. I alternated "call" with the other subi, which was basically late person vs. leaving when your surgeries were done for the day. The latest I was at the hospital was 3am one night and any call is home call. The residents are sensible about that. Most days were 0530-1800 plus call time (not bad). Weekends were also split by the other rotator and myself. Help in the morning was best made by vitals and drain outputs. OR environment is a little different. No pimping at all (unless you're with Salyapongse, wich means a lot of questions). You will get to suture and help with many interesting procedures. Stay involved and be prepared to talk about yourself, as the rotation will be your interview.

4. Hahahahaha. They send a list, but message early. They fill up fast. I was lucky that 2
Grads from my med school were up there and had an extra room. Didn't cost me a dime.

5. See 3. A fair amount of time to explore. They make of a point to let you explore, as they know you won't be back for an interview.


A note on the programs you are looking for reviews of:
I can't help but notice pretty much all of the schools you listed are traditional "powerhouse" academic centers. While all of them are excellent programs in their own right, I want to encourage you to investigate the plastics programs as opposed to gravitating to programs solely based on med school or general medical reputation.

 

[ctusfinest]

xxx

 

[BigMotherKelly]

I'd be happy to comment on UWisconsin

A fair amount of time to explore. They make of a point to let you explore, as they know you won't be back for an interview.

A note on the programs you are looking for reviews of:
I can't help but notice pretty much all of the schools you listed are traditional "powerhouse" academic centers. While all of them are excellent programs in their own right, I want to encourage you to investigate the plastics programs as opposed to gravitating to programs solely based on med school or general medical reputation.

Hey Rueby,

Thanks so much for the Wisconsin wisdom--I really appreciate the detailed write-up, and the general advice you're offering as well. I definitely want to keep my mind open to all the programs out there, and learn more about what makes them unique and interesting places to train--it's also the case that I'll probably only be able to afford hitting the road for two rotations, so I'm especially interested in picking the right places to visit.

I'm not 100% tracking on what you're saying about not returning for an interview, though—is the UWisc policy to not interview rotators and rank (or not rank) them based on the two week experience? Is this a common policy elsewhere, too?

Thanks again,
BMK

 

[rueby25]

Wisconsin's policy is, out of courtesy for your time and budget, not to invite rotators back for interview. SIU does this as well (first time doing it was this year) and some other programs just do the formal interview while you are rotating. Wisconsin's is not a formal interview. Rather, you are considered for rank based on your day to day interactions.

Many places have a formal mechanism for remembering applicants who rotated earlier in the year, and this ranking them appropriately. Many of the current UW residents were rotators who did not return for interviews (but still matched).

As for the rotations, maximizing them is best done by balancing the places you are most interested in with where you can get a good rotation/letter. Hope this helps.

Rueby

 

[poorhistorian]

anyone have any information on which programs predominantly offer 2 week aways?

much appreciated.

 

[rueby25]

anyone have any information on which programs predominantly offer 2 week aways?

much appreciated.

Wisconsin is the only place I've heard of that does it regularly. Many universities require a minimum of 4 weeks to be a visiting rotator. If anyone else has experienced anything different, let me know. But when I was looking, this is what I ran in to.

 

[billybob746]

anyone have any information on which programs predominantly offer 2 week aways?

much appreciated.

UC Irvine does as well

 

[Footprints13]

I was worried about getting attending face time when I was rotating, because one of the aways I was on had minimal attending interaction. I never operated with the program chair, the program director or the Sub-I director. I was freaked out about the lack of face time and even talked with some of the senior residents about it. The best advice I got is that my job is to make life easier for the person directly above me. For me that meant making the junior resident's life as easy as possible. Even though I never operated with any of the "big names" at the program, I got an exceptional letter from them (at least that is what I heard on interviews), because I followed that resident's advice.

Many of the rotators I saw forced themselves on PD's/Chairmen/letter writers and ended up sabotaging their chances. I think you need to be careful about falling into this trap. The temptation when you start a rotation is to grab up all the face time with the big wigs and try to "win" the first week at the expense of the other students, because we all know how competitive plastic surgery is to get into and we want to show how dedicated, committed, etc we are. Resist this impulse. I saw this first hand on my rotations, where rotators would steal each others assigned cases, or where they would come in on someone else's call day and hijack the one on one time the other rotators would have with the attending. Even though the rotators were extremely competitive and had a great application, they didn't get an interview where we rotated together.

I think the bottom line to not "being a dick" to other rotators is to view them as your colleagues rather than your competitors. For me this meant calling them into a cool case, or switching our call schedule to accommodate interviews or personal events. You will see during your rotations that there are a significant number of rotators who are not willing to help out other rotators. Don't be one of those people. After all, what kind of person are the residents/attendings going to want at their program, someone who is going to sell out their counterpart or someone who helps out the other rotators.

 

[Moravian]

Also if anyone has any general advise on how to balance the, "spend enough time with the chief/PD/big letter writers vs being a dick to other rotators"

If you're a dick, we will know because our residents will tell us. Getting face time with attendings is important, but you're really going to have to impress the residents.

 

[rueby25]

Many of the rotators I saw forced themselves on PD's/Chairmen/letter writers and ended up sabotaging their chances. I think you need to be careful about falling into this trap. The temptation when you start a rotation is to grab up all the face time with the big wigs and try to "win" the first week at the expense of the other students, because we all know how competitive plastic surgery is to get into and we want to show how dedicated, committed, etc we are. Resist this impulse. I saw this first hand on my rotations, where rotators would steal each others assigned cases, or where they would come in on someone else's call day and hijack the one on one time the other rotators would have with the attending. Even though the rotators were extremely competitive and had a great application, they didn't get an interview where we rotated together.

I think the bottom line to not "being a dick" to other rotators is to view them as your colleagues rather than your competitors. For me this meant calling them into a cool case, or switching our call schedule to accommodate interviews or personal events. You will see during your rotations that there are a significant number of rotators who are not willing to help out other rotators. Don't be one of those people. After all, what kind of person are the residents/attendings going to want at their program, someone who is going to sell out their counterpart or someone who helps out the other rotators.

I saw this too, and it's definitely not something you want to be involved in. I was fortunate thy occurred mostly with two other rotators, but it definitely made things tense during the rotation.

Be nice to everyone, especially if you're having a bad day. Try to be understanding and, like footprints said, be a colleague. Dr. Bentz at Wisconsin had a sit down with the other rotator and myself before the rotation (which he always does), and part of his talk was "you may not realize it yet, but you are already colleagues and will be for the rest of your careers."

Besides this, just remember the A's: affable, able and available.

 

[ctusfinest]

you can check vsas, UF-gainseville also does them i believe

anyone have any information on which programs predominantly offer 2 week aways?

much appreciated.

 

[ctusfinest]

xxx

 

[ceilngsdontexst]

Michigan

QUESTIONS:
1. How many sub-I's at a time?

There are 4 plastic surgery "teams," so I believe they accept up to 4 students - one for each team. The rotation is not always full though, so you may have your choice.

2. How much face time and OR time w attendings, especially the chief?

Setup in the past has been that you spend 2 weeks on 2 different teams (Peds/CF, Hand, 2 General Recon) and there are 2-3 surgeons on each, so you certainly get to meet a number of faculty. Although the attendings do run from room-to-room sometimes, you will get a TON of time with them in the OR. It is very clear that they love to teach. Even if you are not on the chief's service, you will have a chance to meet with him and the program director individually. There is also a journal club at one of the attendings' houses where you get to meet everyone.

3. Expectations, hours, workload, and integration with the team?

3-4 call nights, 2 of which are weekend nights. You won't sleep on call, but it's worth it - you will learn a lot. Team rounds in the morning, so you don't really pre-round on patients by yourself. Generally got there between 4-5 and left between 6-9 (maybe 100 hours/week?). You don't get full computer access, so you can't put in orders or anything, but plenty of other things you can help with.

4. What were your housing options, and how much did they cost?

Hard to find, even on Rotatingroom. If you can find someone with a UMich email address to email the med school class, that is probably easiest. Paid $500 for the month to sublet.

5. Did you get many days/weekends off to explore the city and get a sense for what it would be like to live there, or did you work 24/7 for the entire month?

About 3 full days off, but still found time to explore and get a sense of Ann Arbor. It's a college town - there's really nothing not to like about it.

I cannot say enough good things about this rotation. Lots of teaching. You will put in a lot of hours, but everyone from the residents to the OR staff are great, so the time goes by fast. Certainly held up to its great reputation.

 

[ctusfinest]

xxx

 

[weightlifter911]

I have done a home AI and an away at Mount sinai and UTSW, all of which I have asked for letters of req. Two weeker is tough but I still probably would. They expect it and it shows you really enjoyed it there.

 

[davidtie]

how was your experience at mt sinai?

 

[saintmed]

I would try and use rotatingroom.com. Alot easier and despite the listed price it's much easier to knock down the price with fellow med students.

 

[sirjury]

anyone able to comment on rotating experience at nyu? i've heard mixed reviews. many say there's too many rotators so unable to get a great experience. any truth to that?

 

[uvasean]

Anybody have information about UPenn, Georgetown, UC Irvine, UChicago?

 

[GRMEP / MSU PRS Resident]

Hi 2015-2016 PRS residency applicants,

I am currently a PRS resident in Grand Rapids, MI at the GRMEP / Michigan State program. The faculty and staff here in Grand Rapids would like to offer any interested PRS applicants the opportunity to chat with current residents about the program and our experience here at MSU. We would be happy to answer any questions that you might have or just tell you about our program in preparation for the 2015-2016 residency application season.

If you are interested in setting up an informal meeting time with myself or other residents, please contact our course director, Sue Hartert, at [email protected]

Best of luck, and hope to speak to some of you soon.