B in Biochem

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ranob

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I plan on self studying biochem next year for the MCAT. The question is, is it also worth taking the biochemistry course and getting a B in it, or will this be worse for my med school applications than not taking the course (and instead getting an A+ in a different science course, i.e. an upper div physics course)? According to the MSAR, most medical schools recommend a college level biochemistry course but do not require it. So, as long as I score well on the MCAT, do you think med schools will count it against me (to the point where it's worth getting a B in the course) if I don't take the course? Thanks in advance.

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I plan on self studying biochem next year for the MCAT. The question is, is it also worth taking the biochemistry course and getting a B in it, or will this be worse for my med school applications than not taking the course (and instead getting an A+ in a different science course, i.e. an upper div physics course)? According to the MSAR, most medical schools recommend a college level biochemistry course but do not require it. So, as long as I score well on the MCAT, do you think med schools will count it against me (to the point where it's worth getting a B in the course) if I don't take the course? Thanks in advance.

Good luck getting an A+ in an upper division physics course if you can't get an A in biochemistry.
 
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If it is difficult to accept that physics classes (esp. medical physics) are easier for some than bio/orgo/biochem classes (it could be argued that they involve different skill sets, but that discussion belongs in another thread...), then consider the question in the OP to be purely hypothetical. Thanks.
 
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It's an uphill battle since the premed courses are designed to weed students out, so studying a bit harder is not really a viable option. Also, physics has all of nothing to do with biochemistry (there is 0 overlap).

1. Upper-level physics is very very difficult to do well. So saying blindly that you will get an A+ in upper level physics is terribly misinformed. And besides, physics is harder than any biology course by a longshot, and that's undeniable.

2. No one cares about premed courses being a weed out. They are required for a reason, and it's expected you do well on them. Take biochemistry, which is strongly recommended/required by many medical schools, and aim to get an A.

Edited accordingly:

If it is difficult to accept that physics classes (esp. medical physics) are easier for some than bio/orgo/biochem classes (it could be argued that they involve different skill sets, but that discussion belongs in another thread...), then consider the question in the OP to be purely hypothetical. Thanks.

1. I'm sorry, but you don't know what upper level physics entails. And that's fine. Upper level physics isn't like "medical physics" (whatever that is). Biophysics isn't "easy" as you think. To keep it very brief, physics requires a combination of excellent math skills (not precalculus; I'm talking linear algebra, differential equations (ordinary and partial), abstract algebra etc.). It is time consuming. You will mess up on exams and homework if you make a slight mistake halfway. It's a torture and it will kill your GPA unless you are extremely dedicated and aren't too busy with ECs.

2. Saying physics has different skill sets from chemistry is nonsense, considering that chemistry is built on physical concepts (think physical chemistry, analytical chemistry, and inorganic chemistry). From which, advanced biochemical principles (mass action kinetics deriving models more complex than Michaelis-Menten) can be derived, resulting in computational biology. Biology and medicine viewed from a physical standpoint is incredibly significant, so no, biology and physics aren't different. They are approached from similar direction (understanding concepts; not memorizing aimlessly).

I am sorry but I'm being optimistic by assuming your concerns are naivete. It is a well known fact that physics is the hardest undergraduate major, possibly rivaled by a math major with a pure math focus. This isn't elementary stuff. It's hardcore, time-consuming, and mind-wrecking material where you must be desensitized in performing suboptimally.

You can do physics if you want, and no one cares. Just don't blindly expect an A+ (or even an A-) out of the blue or claim that physics is easy, when it really is not. I already answered your biochemistry question previously.
 
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@Lawper I'd like to request that you do not respond to the following rebuttal, in the interests of keeping the thread on topic. We can just agree to disagree.
I've taken all the math courses you mentioned and then some (minus abstract algebra, which is 100% useless for the stuff I'm interesting in). You probably won't believe me; that's fine. But I do know what I'm talking about. You might be right about biophysics (although I kind of doubt it...), but I was thinking more along the lines of medical imaging. Re 2: I didn't say physics had a different skill set from chemistry, as that would be nonsense. I said it required a different skill set compared to organic chemistry. There's a difference. Finally, re: A+ in a physics class, this point is not up for debate. If you are open-minded, you will accept that physics is trivial for certain people. I am one such person. If you can't accept it, then as mentioned earlier, just pretend the question in the OP is hypothetical in nature.
 
@Lawper I'd like to request that you do not respond to the following rebuttal, in the interests of keeping the thread on topic. We can just agree to disagree.
I've taken all the math courses you mentioned and then some (minus abstract algebra, which is 100% useless for the stuff I'm interesting in). You probably won't believe me; that's fine. But I do know what I'm talking about. You might be right about biophysics (although I kind of doubt it...), but I was thinking more along the lines of medical imaging. Re 2: I didn't say physics had a different skill set from chemistry, as that would be nonsense. I said it required a different skill set compared to organic chemistry. There's a difference. Finally, re: A+ in a physics class, this point is not up for debate. If you are open-minded, you will accept that physics is trivial for certain people. I am one such person. If you can't accept it, then as mentioned earlier, just pretend the question in the OP is hypothetical in nature.

I made my stance clear and it is verified by a vast variety of physics, engineering and math majors, including several who are going to great medical schools and residencies here on SDN. You are welcome to follow what you believe but i am helping you by offering a stark caution. I am happy you are great at math/analytical thinking but don't get carried away and collapse.

Your question regarding biochemistry has been resolved by WedgeDawg and me. I am not sure what is more to be discussed regarding this but the topic on physics can be discussed separately
 
@WedgeDawg Thanks for the list.

I guess what I'm really asking is whether med schools care if biochemistry is taken post-application or prior to the med school app. Otherwise it sounds like I should take the course only after I'm accepted to a med school that requires the course.
 
@WedgeDawg Thanks for the list.

I guess what I'm really asking is whether med schools care if biochemistry is taken post-application or prior to the med school app. Otherwise it sounds like I should take the course only after I'm accepted to a med school that requires the course.

You only need to complete the prereqs/biochemistry before matriculation at the school that requires it
 
@WedgeDawg Thanks for the list.

I guess what I'm really asking is whether med schools care if biochemistry is taken post-application or prior to the med school app. Otherwise it sounds like I should take the course only after I'm accepted to a med school that requires the course.

They don't care as far as I can tell. Obviously it looks good to take it before applying and ace it, but not taking it shouldn't hurt you. Even if you end up matriculating at a school that doesn't require biochem, it might be a good idea to take it so that you have some background for some of the stuff you'll learn as an M1 (current medical students, please feel free to comment on whether or not you thought this was useful).

However, that being said, unless you happen to be accepted to your top choice medical school in the fall (who happens to also not require biochem during undergrad), you'll probably want to take it your senior spring so that just in case you end up going to a school that requires it, you're not completely out of luck.
 
I say take biochem, study your butt off and try to get an A. I don't know what your GPA and overall app look like right now, but if making a single B in biochem is what is going to tank you, then you're hanging on by a pretty thin rope as it is.
 
Normally I'd agree with you (my GPA is high enough that I can afford a couple B's), but I'm pretty sure the A's in the course will all be taken by the students that are good test takers, so it seems kind of dumb to spend hours studying to get a B only for med schools to hold the B against me, especially given the course doesn't even have a lab making it trivial to self-study the book.
 
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http://www.brynmawr.edu/healthpro/documents/MedSchlAdvanScienReq_2015.pdf

Here is a list of all schools that require taking biochemistry. If you want to apply to any of these schools, I would recommend that you take biochemistry at some point before you matriculate, even if it is not before you apply.

Wow, I didn't realize that many schools had a hard requirement on biochem. I always planned on taking the class so I guess I never really looked into it as a potential source of problems.

OP, you do need to realize that the medical schools are going to look first at grades received in classes before they account for what exactly it was you took (besides the required prereqs). Biochem is a prereq at a lot of schools, so your options are vastly expanded if you take the class. That being said, don't just "concede" that you're going to get a B and roll over. Try and take it at a time that you can really focus on the material and work hard to get the best grade you possibly can. I hate physics with a passion and am not great with designing equations to solve problems. I acknowledged this and arranged my schedule to take physics during the summer where I could focus on it and got A's in both, despite being in a class with a really bad teacher who insisted that the department required the GPA average for the class to be a 2.8 (when the class average was like a 90%) and subsequently curved people with 92% down to a B-. Anything is possible with some dedication my friend!
 
Sometimes, getting an A is somewhat out of your control.

I've taken many classes where I could study for 10 years and I still would not be anywhere close to guaranteeing an A (and I did decently on BS section of the MCAT).
 
How can a teacher justify making 92% a B- It his/her fault for not making the class difficult enough if the class average was that high.

Lol, we all said the same thing. Prof probably should have made it a lot harder, which would have weeded out the lazy ones/allowed the hard workers to get to the top (similarly to a lot of classes), but the department of course won't do anything about it. I'm just extremely grateful that I was able to swing an A in there. It's hard to truly appreciate just how hard it is to get mostly A's until you've been through the struggle yourself.
 
@WedgeDawg Would you recommend Biochemistry I before or after OChem II? I've heard the Biochemistry course at my university is a lot like OChem and has mechanisms.
 
@WedgeDawg Would you recommend Biochemistry I before or after OChem II? I've heard the Biochemistry course at my university is a lot like OChem and has mechanisms.

Depends based on your school. At mine, it was required to take orgo 2 before biochemistry, likely because of the carbonyl chemistry involved. If you're going to take both no matter what, orgo 2 before biochem will set you up better than biochem before orgo 2, but some schools only require orgo 1 to take biochem.
 
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jesús what college do you go to where they give out A+???? I should transfer
 
jesús what college do you go to where they give out A+???? I should transfer

A+ are useless for AMCAS purposes.

Also, I would prefer to go to a school that does not have A+.

Often, getting an A+ is near impossible (sometimes it liks top 1-2% of class). Also, when you report your GPA for jobs, you would have to report: X.XX/4.3

So even if you got all A's, your GPA would be 4.0/4.3. And, if you are like most people with a 3.7, then you GPA is 3.7/4.3 which just looks bad.
 
A+ are useless for AMCAS purposes.

Also, I would prefer to go to a school that does not have A+.

Often, getting an A+ is near impossible (sometimes it liks top 1-2% of class). Also, when you report your GPA for jobs, you would have to report: X.XX/4.3

So even if you got all A's, your GPA would be 4.0/4.3. And, if you are like most people with a 3.7, then you GPA is 3.7/4.3 which just looks bad.

I have never seen an A+ being equal to a 4.3. And i recommend using AMCAS GPA when applying for jobs because that is far more trustworthy than undergrad GPA.
 
I have never seen an A+ being equal to a 4.3. And i recommend using AMCAS GPA when applying for jobs because that is far more trustworthy than undergrad GPA.

Well when applying for jobs, you should probably report the GPA on your official college transcript. This is especially true if you go for a job outside pure medicine (for example, is a pharma company going to know what AMCAS GPA is?).

I believe NC State and Stanford are both schools that use 4.3 = A+ for their own GPA calculation purposes.
 
Well when applying for jobs, you should probably report the GPA on your official college transcript. This is especially true if you go for a job outside pure medicine (for example, is a pharma company going to know what AMCAS GPA is?).

I believe NC State and Stanford are both schools that use 4.3 = A+ for their own GPA calculation purposes.

I meant to use the AMCAS GPA (without saying the words AMCAS in it) in place of undergrad GPA. The differences between the two are usually very negligible anyways, so I stick with AMCAS because I like it more. :p

Hm, interesting (I didn't expect Stanford to use it), but completely unnecessary. An A+ doesn't warrant a massive GPA bump compared to an A... they are equal for all intents and purposes.
 
I meant to use the AMCAS GPA (without saying the words AMCAS in it) in place of undergrad GPA. The differences between the two are usually very negligible anyways, so I stick with AMCAS because I like it more. :p

Hm, interesting (I didn't expect Stanford to use it), but completely unnecessary. An A+ doesn't warrant a massive GPA bump compared to an A... they are equal for all intents and purposes.

Your advice about using AMCAS GPA is fine I guess for most people. But if you transfer schools or take classes at another school, then it gets more complicated.

I have a friend at Stanford and she says that in math/science classes, they are essentially given to like the top 1-2% of students in the class. That can be pretty hard to achieve at Stanford so IMO, it's well deserved.
 
Ugh. These questions...
 
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Update: The professor I'm doing research with next year indicated that if I take biochemistry, he'd take it into account with regards to the details of the project I'll be working on. He kind of expects that I'll be taking this course next semester. If any researchers reading this have experience with this kind of situation (research mentor expecting you to take a course), feel free to chime in.
 
Update: The professor I'm doing research with next year indicated that if I take biochemistry, he'd take it into account with regards to the details of the project I'll be working on. He kind of expects that I'll be taking this course next semester. If any researchers reading this have experience with this kind of situation (research mentor expecting you to take a course), feel free to chime in.
I would have thought it very obvious that if a research mentor expects you to take a course to work in their lab, you should probably take it if you're planning on working in their lab...
 
Update: The professor I'm doing research with next year indicated that if I take biochemistry, he'd take it into account with regards to the details of the project I'll be working on. He kind of expects that I'll be taking this course next semester. If any researchers reading this have experience with this kind of situation (research mentor expecting you to take a course), feel free to chime in.

Research mentors will recommend all sorts of classes all of the time because the assumption is that you want to continue doing research on that field. Idk why a researcher would recommend biochemstry though, imho it is useless for research purposes. First semester undergrad biochem is essentially a ton of memorization and some application of basic unifying principles to unknown systems. None of it really helps for any kind of research (and I am a Biochemistry major doing research in a Biochemistry laboratory) until you get to the higher up classes like molecular machines, transport, physical methods, etc. Intro Biochem is a boring **** show. DiffEq, Linear Algebra, Quantum I, Physical Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Mechanics and E/M along with Molecular Biology are the most useful classes for undergraduate researchers imho, ymmv since those are the courses I've taken that I have found immediately useful in my research (I have yet to take Quantum I but holy crap is it useful in the type of research I do). In b4 flame.

That being said, I also have a very difficult time believing that anyone who can do well in upper division physics can't do well in biochemistry. I'm awful at memorization too but if you devote the adequate amount of time to study then you will get an A. All of the answers are in the book, after all, unlike physics where if you don't get it then GG.

If the question is: should I take biochem before or after application (but always before matriculation)? Then the answer is: No one cares, do whatever you want. Imo just study and get an A srsly its not that hard.

If the question is: should I take Biochemistry before the MCAT? Ask someone who has taken the new MCAT. I would say: Yes, def. take it before the MCAT, you will know most important physiological mechanisms before they ever show up on the exam and the test is like 15% biochem or something according to the AAMC. Don't gamble on it unless there's no way you can take it prior to the MCAT to stay on schedule.

If the question is: should I take Biochem because my research mentor told me to? Just ask him/her what he/she wants you to know and learn it on your own. Not worth it. However, mind the first two responses above.
 
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I'm getting curved down in stats now. Beyond pissed, but it's not affecting just me - it's all 200 of us.
OK, curve downs need to be illegal. Someone has to pass a law about this. That's ridiculous and extremely unfair to students who work hard. If everyone does well, everyone should get an A. Why does everything have to fit to some mountain-shaped curve?
 
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Taking the biochemistry course will certainly help you do well on that part of the exam. It might be harder to self study for it.
 
OK, curve downs need to be illegal. Someone has to pass a law about this. That's ridiculous and extremely unfair to students who work hard. If everyone does well, everyone should get an A. Why does everything have to fit to some mountain-shaped curve?

Because I am a snobby tenured professor with a stick up my arse who feels slighted and whose heart sinks when I don't have students who fail, and I will screw over students at the very end because it is more satisfying to me to surprise them with failure. Oh, and [insert comment about playing the old-school card] and I'm giving them a "valuable life-lesson" by being a massive douche. And I have departmental GPA standards to meet, and I'd rather do it this way because this is easiest for me.
 
Because I am a snobby tenured professor with a stick up my arse who feels slighted and whose heart sinks when I don't have students who fail, and I will screw over students at the very end because it is more satisfying to me to surprise them with failure. Oh, and [insert comment about playing the old-school card] and I'm giving them a "valuable life-lesson" by being a massive douche. And I have departmental GPA standards to meet, and I'd rather do it this way because this is easiest for me.

... or maybe he can make the class material insanely difficult and curve up, but apparently that thought never came across him ;)
 
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... or maybe he can make the class material insanely difficult and curve up, but apparently that thought never came across him ;)

Oh no, then that would be convenient for the students, especially the ones who work hard. I can't have that.
 
I plan on self studying biochem next year for the MCAT. The question is, is it also worth taking the biochemistry course and getting a B in it, or will this be worse for my med school applications than not taking the course (and instead getting an A+ in a different science course, i.e. an upper div physics course)? According to the MSAR, most medical schools recommend a college level biochemistry course but do not require it. So, as long as I score well on the MCAT, do you think med schools will count it against me (to the point where it's worth getting a B in the course) if I don't take the course? Thanks in advance.

The following is an excerpt from a real ADCOM meeting:

member 1: "I really love ranob's personal statement, I feel like he would be a great addition to our student body"

member 2: "yeah and his GPA looks solid, I think he will do great at our school"

Dean: "But guys, he got a B in Biochem... there's no friggin way I'm letting this ***** in" (members 1 and 2 nod in agreement)"

...Be careful OP, if you take it, you better get an A
 
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@WedgeDawg
The expectation is because I mentioned I was a premed at one point. It's not so much that it's required to work in the lab as that it could impact the details of the project I'm working on in lab.

@Lucca
Thanks for the great advice

@ski89
The point of the question was to see whether med schools would question my ability if I did not take biochem (given I already have a B in bio and orgo), not the other way around. Congrats on completely misinterpreting it though. All things equal, I'd rather not take the course (until after med school applications) and needlessly lower my GPA.
 
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