Back to number 1 in burn out.

[cyanide12345678]

The new burnout survey by medscape just came out. EM went from 43% to 60% reported burnout.

Medscape: Medscape Access

We are back to no. 1 and by quite a margin.

So are you burned out? Do you have an exit strategy or will you continue EM until you're 60+?

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[EthylMethylMan]

I'm at the tail-end of residency, and I definitely feel crispier than I did as an intern, but not terribly so. I do know that this isn't a sustainable career for me for multiple decades. Luckily I'm starting a fellowship next year that'll get me out of the ED. As of right now I'm planning on mostly doing EM while I'm relatively young, then transitioning to more of my fellowship specialty as I get older. But we'll see if actually doing attending work moves that timeline up a bit.

 

[deleted941485]

I'm at the tail-end of residency, and I definitely feel crispier than I did as an intern, but not terribly so. I do know that this isn't a sustainable career for me for multiple decades. Luckily I'm starting a fellowship next year that'll get me out of the ED. As of right now I'm planning on mostly doing EM while I'm relatively young, then transitioning to more of my fellowship specialty as I get older. But we'll see if actually doing attending work moves that timeline up a bit.

what exactly is your fellowship?

 

[Rekt]

what exactly is your fellowship?

Yeah I don't really see this working? Pain, palliative, ccm? Can't take ten years off then just hop back in. Very part time sports? Hard enough to break into as it is. EMS, admin, wilderness, ultrasound, sim, teaching, resus, etc are all a waste.

 

[bravotwozero]

I actually don’t feel burnt out. My wife has lots of gripes about my schedule, but work on average 10-12 shifts a month.

Some days are crazier than others. I have no intention of carrying on this job until my 60s, as I’m hoping to keep working EM and save up enough to hit FI in 8-10 years. We’ll see…

 

[EthylMethylMan]

what exactly is your fellowship?

Yeah I don't really see this working? Pain, palliative, ccm? Can't take ten years off then just hop back in. Very part time sports? Hard enough to break into as it is. EMS, admin, wilderness, ultrasound, sim, teaching, resus, etc are all a waste.

Hyperbarics. To clarify, I meant that I intend on doing both right out of the gates, because you're totally right that it wouldn't make sense to not use the skillset for that long. But it's totally feasible, and in fact not uncommon, to practice both.

 

[deleted813736]

I work 20x 24 hour shifts every month in a small volume ER. I graduated back in 2020. I feel slightly burnt out and my current job situation also doesn't help. But i generate 750 a year now and i am 'happy'. Looking to retire somewhere between 2025-2030

 

[WilcoWorld]

20x24/mo!?!

 

[rokshana]

What does derm have to burned out about??

 

[AlmostAnMD]

20x24/mo!?!

Has to be a typo

He'd be so delirious after a year of that he would not be able to discern reality from fantasy

Not to mention the innumerable medical mistakes that come with that much fatigue

 

[pkwraith]

Has to be a typo

He'd be so delirious after a year of that he would not be able to discern reality from fantasy

Not to mention the innumerable medical mistakes that come with that much fatigue

one year? I'd start getting delirious after one month

 

[thegenius]

I work 20x 24 hour shifts every month in a small volume ER. I graduated back in 2020. I feel slightly burnt out and my current job situation also doesn't help. But i generate 750 a year now and i am 'happy'. Looking to retire somewhere between 2025-2030

You must work some back-to-back 24 hr shifts as there are only about 30 days in a month. so you work 20 of those 30 days?

 

[bravotwozero]

20x24/mo!?!

Yeah don’t believe that for a second.

 

[Angry Birds]

Has to be a typo

He'd be so delirious after a year of that he would not be able to discern reality from fantasy

Not to mention the innumerable medical mistakes that come with that much fatigue

I don't think it was a typo. It was facetious.

 

[911MD]

Probably legit. I work 31x24/mo. Not looking forward to February.

 

[Birdstrike]

EM has always been #1 in burnout and always will be, regardless of what polls show. It has the perfect recipe, with breakneck pace, acuity, abuse from administration, patients and staff, chronic circadian-rhythm depression and gaslighting from within your own specialty. "Everything is okay, EM is easy and if it doesn't feel that way, you are the problem," you're told. Few better recipes for burnout have ever been created. The military during wartime is one obvious exception.

 

[ER BlueBlood]

What does derm have to burned out about??

Being bored to death and selling soap

 

[watermanMD]

I'm at the tail-end of residency, and I definitely feel crispier than I did as an intern, but not terribly so. I do know that this isn't a sustainable career for me for multiple decades. Luckily I'm starting a fellowship next year that'll get me out of the ED. As of right now I'm planning on mostly doing EM while I'm relatively young, then transitioning to more of my fellowship specialty as I get older. But we'll see if actually doing attending work moves that timeline up a bit.

Same boat and plan. But I’m going to work a year or two before going back. Gonna do Addiction. Hopefully mix inpatient, outpatient, and some telemedicine to (hopefully) stave off the 🔥. What does the job (hrs, $, setting) look like for hyperbarics? Thought about that briefly as Med student but haven’t given it much thought since. Cool stuff.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I

Same boat and plan. But I’m going to work a year or two before going back. Gonna do Addiction. Hopefully mix inpatient, outpatient, and some telemedicine to (hopefully) stave off the 🔥. What does the job (hrs, $, setting) look like for hyperbarics? Thought about that briefly as Med student but haven’t given it much thought since. Cool stuff.

saved like a mad man. I’m basically FI now mid 40s. Ill keep working though. I cant imagine fully quitting while I have a kid living in my house. Beauty of EM is I can cut back to about 1.5 shifts a week if I want to. For now sticking with a little under 3 shifts per week. Hit the 3 shifts per week during covid as no travel and short vacations.

key is save and invest. Avoid the noise of quick investment returns. Works out for 5% and thats all you hear about. You dont hear about the guy who lost 100k he couldnt afford to blow.

Reality is if you save early compounding saves you. I made almost as much in the stock market last year as I did at work. If you include real estate gains I made way more.

Save, invest, diversify and if possible find passive income. Most accessible option is buying rental real estate but it takes time effort and is a PITA.

 

[i-doctor]

I

saved like a mad man. I’m basically FI now mid 40s. Ill keep working though. I cant imagine fully quitting while I have a kid living in my house. Beauty of EM is I can cut back to about 1.5 shifts a week if I want to. For now sticking with a little under 3 shifts per week. Hit the 3 shifts per week during covid as no travel and short vacations.

key is save and invest. Avoid the noise of quick investment returns. Works out for 5% and thats all you hear about. You dont hear about the guy who lost 100k he couldnt afford to blow.

Reality is if you save early compounding saves you. I made almost as much in the stock market last year as I did at work. If you include real estate gains I made way more.

Save, invest, diversify and if possible find passive income. Most accessible option is buying rental real estate but it takes time effort and is a PITA.

Great advice. However, there is some element of luck involved regarding time frames involved. Sounds like your career as an attending began right near the 2008 stock market low. Perfect timing, saving money and riding the wave up in both the stock market and real estate market since 2008. I know docs who got the short end, losing a lot of net worth (both in stocks and real estate) in 2008-10 just when they had planned to retire, and had to postpone their retirement and work much longer than expected.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Great advice. However, there is some element of luck involved regarding time frames involved. Sounds like your career as an attending began right near the 2008 stock market low. Perfect timing, saving money and riding the wave up in both the stock market and real estate market since 2008. I know docs who got the short end, losing a lot of net worth (both in stocks and real estate) in 2008-10 just when they had planned to retire, and had to postpone their retirement and work much longer than expected.

Yep. Keep firing. Like In basketball and gambling. Market has returned well for a while. Beginning of 2016 sp500 was 2000 now hit near 4800. Nasdaq 100 has been even hotter. Hard to retire during a crash but we usually recover quickly.

 

[Backpack234]

Save, invest, diversify and if possible find passive income. Most accessible option is buying rental real estate but it takes time effort and is a PITA.

This. And for goodness sake, talk to an estate lawyer who practices in your state to find out if you can lose everything in a lawsuit. It's unlikely, but you'll feel much more comfortable when you learn about retirement accounts, trusts, tenancy by the entirety, etc.

 

[Tenk]

I cut back to 11 shifts next month. Can’t wait.

 

[Cinclus]

I work 10-11 shifts/month, am feeling confident in my skills after being out several years (lost the new attending terror), and have FU money due to investments. My job is currently not too bad. I enjoy most of my interactions with coworkers and even patients. If things change, then, well...there's the FU money. I don't worry unnecessarily about admin, metrics, blahblahblah. I enjoy refining my knowledge and skills. FU money is great burnout prevention. When I decide this EM thing is over, I have already created that which will keep me busy, fulfilled, and entertained.

 

[Backpack234]

I work 10-11 shifts/month, am feeling confident in my skills after being out several years (lost the new attending terror), and have FU money due to investments. My job is currently not too bad. I enjoy most of my interactions with coworkers and even patients. If things change, then, well...there's the FU money. I don't worry unnecessarily about admin, metrics, blahblahblah. I enjoy refining my knowledge and skills. FU money is great burnout prevention. When I decide this EM thing is over, I have already created that which will keep me busy, fulfilled, and entertained.

How long did it take to build up that FU money? I guess if you YOLO'd TSLA in the last 3 years you could easily be at 2M. Following index funds even saving 80% of income it still would have taken 3-4 years to get to 1M.

Also, I used to not worry about admin and metrics. Then patient satisfaction scores became a criteria for employment...

 

[Cinclus]

How long did it take to build up that FU money? I guess if you YOLO'd TSLA in the last 3 years you could easily be at 2M. Following index funds even saving 80% of income it still would have taken 3-4 years to get to 1M.

Also, I used to not worry about admin and metrics. Then patient satisfaction scores became a criteria for employment...

Started the particularly good investments about 2 years before I began medical school. Took about 7 years for them to make me FI. I had FU levels of money as a second-year resident.

 

[bravotwozero]

I’ve thought about the idea of owning a short term/vacation rental property. Problem is those places usually have sky high real estate prices to begin with. Places like Vail, San Diego, Palm Springs have insane property values that would make it difficult to cash flow.

 

[Backpack234]

Started the particularly good investments about 2 years before I began medical school. Took about 7 years for them to make me FI. I had FU levels of money as a second-year resident.

That’s…awesome.

Seriously though. Congrats! Most of us are hundreds of thousands of debt in residency. You’re in a good spot.

 

[emergentmd]

How long did it take to build up that FU money? I guess if you YOLO'd TSLA in the last 3 years you could easily be at 2M. Following index funds even saving 80% of income it still would have taken 3-4 years to get to 1M.

Also, I used to not worry about admin and metrics. Then patient satisfaction scores became a criteria for employment...

Put half in stocks, half in RE. One of the two should do well. RE almost never drops and if it does, pay it off and cashflow to FI. My portfolio is 50% tesla stock so hope they will keep up the momentum.

 

[emergentmd]

I’ve thought about the idea of owning a short term/vacation rental property. Problem is those places usually have sky high real estate prices to begin with. Places like Vail, San Diego, Palm Springs have insane property values that would make it difficult to cash flow.

If you want to get into STRs, I would highly recommend finding a place near where you live. We bought a lakefront one hr from Austin 5 yrs ago for 475K and put 300K for a complete renovation/dock. We did VRBO from the beginning and goal was essentially pay for the mortgage/carrying costs while we get to use it all the time. Best decision from an investment and lifestyle standpoint. We get to use it 10 times/yr, family/friends love to go out there essentially for free. A summer 3 night stay would run 5K with all the VRBO fees. Plus the cash flow is ridiculous and essentially booked 5 months straight in the Summer. My best and most lucky decision ever to get a nice place to vacation/relax, cash flow, and have ridiculous appreciation. I would have taken 2 of the 3 looking back.

Buy something close, so if it doesn't cash flow you atleast have a great vacation spot but I bet in 5-10 yrs it will cash flow along with appreciation.

We ended up buying another lake front Precovid that has sky rocketed. Looking to buy another but nothing is under 1.5M even for a fixer up.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Started the particularly good investments about 2 years before I began medical school. Took about 7 years for them to make me FI. I had FU levels of money as a second-year resident.

BTC or ETH I'm assuming.

 

[Old_Mil]

I work 20x 24 hour shifts every month in a small volume ER. I graduated back in 2020. I feel slightly burnt out and my current job situation also doesn't help. But i generate 750 a year now and i am 'happy'. Looking to retire somewhere between 2025-2030

You broke the code, my friend. Those are the kinds of shops where EM is sustainable.

 

[Old_Mil]

It's possible. I did some moonlighting at a shop where I could have worked maybe 15x24 a month without going nuts. It was a unique situation, didn't pay much on an hourly basis, but you saw a handful (one, not two) of patients a day. If you lived locally, you could work this gig from your own living room. To this day I regret that I couldn't sign on there full time. Great staff, you could go into the cafeteria at lunchtime and they would ask you what they could make you for lunch today.

 

[Kryptocoin]

Seems like no one learned anything from 2008. We've now entered speculative buying. People are paying 2x asking for a shack in my city. I see doctors with 5-10 real estate portfolios. Life is good! The euphoria is palpable.

What happens during an economic downturn? The NASDAQ briefly entered bear territory on Friday. Market crash---->job layoffs----> tenants can't pay rent--->foreclosures---->underwater mortgages---> housing collapse----->rinse and repeat q18 years.

 

[GassYous]

Seems like no one learned anything from 2008. We've now entered speculative buying. People are paying 2x asking for a shack in my city. I see doctors with 5-10 real estate portfolios. Life is good! The euphoria is palpable.

What happens during an economic downturn? The NASDAQ briefly entered bear territory on Friday. Market crash---->job layoffs----> tenants can't pay rent--->foreclosures---->underwater mortgages---> housing collapse----->rinse and repent q18 years.

There are several people advertising classes teaching other doctors how to leverage their existing properties to put down payments on others and buy cash flowing properties. But what happens when you can't afford to keep making those payments? I'd love to get into real estate but everything just seems like it's in a bubble atm. But people have been saying that for years so who knows?

 

[Kryptocoin]

There are several people advertising classes teaching other doctors how to leverage their existing properties to put down payments on others and buy cash flowing properties. But what happens when you can't afford to keep making those payments? I'd love to get into real estate but everything just seems like it's in a bubble atm. But people have been saying that for years so who knows?

The sad thing is a lot of the people teaching these "courses" make more money from the courses than from actual real estate investments. Robert Kiyosaki charges $10-50k to attend his courses and touts 100% financing (!!!). It's all a legal scam imho.

 

[deleted1114045]

Seems like no one learned anything from 2008. We've now entered speculative buying. People are paying 2x asking for a shack in my city. I see doctors with 5-10 real estate portfolios. Life is good! The euphoria is palpable.

What happens during an economic downturn? The NASDAQ briefly entered bear territory on Friday. Market crash---->job layoffs----> tenants can't pay rent--->foreclosures---->underwater mortgages---> housing collapse----->rinse and repent q18 years.

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[cyanide12345678]

It's possible. I did some moonlighting at a shop where I could have worked maybe 15x24 a month without going nuts. It was a unique situation, didn't pay much on an hourly basis, but you saw a handful (one, not two) of patients a day. If you lived locally, you could work this gig from your own living room. To this day I regret that I couldn't sign on there full time. Great staff, you could go into the cafeteria at lunchtime and they would ask you what they could make you for lunch today.

I think rural EM is definitely the way to go. I feel fairly relaxed at work now.

As some of you know, i took a $60/hour pay cut to go from my 20k volume single coverage with 9 ish hours of MLP coverage to a 8000 annual volume shop.

My income dropped from $260/hr IC to $200/hr w2. But im definitely happier at work. During day shift I'll see between 12 to 18 in 12 hours. So between 1 to 1.5 patients per hour. The ER is 6 beds, so if it gets "busy", patients just wait outside and you just relax and wait for workups to come back to do disposition and to get a bed. During night shift i see 4 to 10 patients in 12 hours, can usually squeeze in 2-4 hours of sleep usually. Last night shift i saw 4 patients. Last day shift i saw 11.

Overall between nights and days i probably average 1 patient per hour probably. So getting 200/hr for a sustainable job, i can't complain about, plus some excellent University benefits - 401k matching, access to 457b, the usual benefits otherwise.

I think I'm finally happy with emergency medicine as a career. Gone are the days of seeing 4-5 per hour in the first 3-4 hours of coming to work.

I highly recommend anyone burned out in emergency medicine to consider rural medicine.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Seems like no one learned anything from 2008. We've now entered speculative buying. People are paying 2x asking for a shack in my city. I see doctors with 5-10 real estate portfolios. Life is good! The euphoria is palpable.

What happens during an economic downturn? The NASDAQ briefly entered bear territory on Friday. Market crash---->job layoffs----> tenants can't pay rent--->foreclosures---->underwater mortgages---> housing collapse----->rinse and repeat q18 years.

Some of it is euphoria, some of it is truly market fundamentals, depends on the market.

The fundamentals have changed:

1) huge investment capital going in to single family homes. In my town, investors are buying up 20-25 percent of inventory, up from traditionally around 7 to 10 percent. This increases demand.

2) very high inflation numbers leading to increasing prices of assets. Cost to build has increased significantly, real estate prices will increase as cost of replacement increases. Real estate has always been considered a hedge against inflation.

3) very low inventory still. Inventory needs to go much much higher for any real crash. Supply and demand is favoring price increases. If supply remains constrained, then prices will keep rising.

4) very low interest rates still means housing is affordable, the monthly payments are manageable. Even if there fed increases rates 6 times this year, these rates are still historically extremely low.

I think the price increases will slow down in 2022 but probably will still continue going up, the supply just isn't there with very heavy demand especially with massive smart capital buying homes. There will be a correction at some point, but probably not 2022 as the supply demand fundamentals don't support a massive price drop. Maybe once interest rates are finally above 4.5 or 5 percent?

I'm personally too lazy to invest in active real estate, but in 2021 i put in 340k in passive syndications. To date i own shares in 11 syndications which own about 20 or so apartments around the US. Probably will double my money by 2026, while enjoying depreciation tax benefits and getting rental checks.

 

[Kryptocoin]

Some of it is euphoria, some of it is truly market fundamentals, depends on the market.

The fundamentals have changed:

1) huge investment capital going in to single family homes. In my town, investors are buying up 20-25 percent of inventory, up from traditionally around 7 to 10 percent. This increases demand.

2) very high inflation numbers leading to increasing prices of assets. Cost to build has increased significantly, real estate prices will increase as cost of replacement increases. Real estate has always been considered a hedge against inflation.

"This time it's different"

Every crash is brought on by a different set of events. The next crash won't be due to subprime lending as in 2008.

Keep in mind that some of this demand is not organic. Average US salary is $51k and average home price is $375k. That's a 7x home-to-income ratio. Way above the recommended max of 3-to-1 ratio. So who's buying all these homes? Companies like Blackrock and big real estate firms are buying up everything in sight in most big cities , creating an artificial inflated market. If the feds drastically increase interest rates and they can't meet their loan burden, the music stops.

 

[deleted941485]

"This time it's different"

Every crash is brought on by a different set of events. The next crash won't be due to subprime lending as in 2008.

Keep in mind that some of this demand is not organic. Average US salary is $51k and average home price is $375k. That's a 7x home-to-income ratio. Way above the recommended max of 3-to-1 ratio. So who's buying all these homes? Companies like Blackrock and big real estate firms are buying up everything in sight in most big cities , creating an artificial inflated market. If the feds drastically increase interest rates and they can't meet their loan burden, the music stops.

These firms will buy site unseen at times. No questions. All cash deals. 99% of homebuyers can’t compete. They fix them up a bit and the rent them. They LOVE renting to families because they can jack up the rents. Once the kid is in the school system and they make friends families are reluctant to uproot so they just put up with it.

Just adding another layer of nonsense to the equation. Don’t get mad it’s just the invisible hand of the market putting it’s invisible fingers right up your ass.

 

[Kryptocoin]

These firms will buy site unseen at times. No questions. All cash deals. 99% of homebuyers can’t compete. They fix them up a bit and the rent them. They LOVE renting to families because they can jack up the rents. Once the kid is in the school system and they make friends families are reluctant to uproot so they just put up with it.

Just adding another layer of nonsense to the equation. Don’t get mad it’s just the invisible hand of the market putting it’s invisible fingers right up your ass.

Classic signs of market euphoria.

“When the tide goes out, you see who is swimming naked.”-WB

 

[cyanide12345678]

"This time it's different"

Every crash is brought on by a different set of events. The next crash won't be due to subprime lending as in 2008.

Keep in mind that some of this demand is not organic. Average US salary is $51k and average home price is $375k. That's a 7x home-to-income ratio. Way above the recommended max of 3-to-1 ratio. So who's buying all these homes? Companies like Blackrock and big real estate firms are buying up everything in sight in most big cities , creating an artificial inflated market. If the feds drastically increase interest rates and they can't meet their loan burden, the music stops.

Yes, the average person is being priced out. But that does also strengthen the rental market. Anything that is in the buy box for black rock and others gets an extremely aggressive cash offer.

The music will stop when interest rates become much higher, but even with 6 or so increases this year, rates will still be at all time lows. I just don't think 2022 is the year of the crash. The rates will still be very reasonable, and this demand isn't going away in 10 months.

So then the question is that if the market is going to keep going up another 8 to 12 percent, why not just buy now, time in the market is always more important than timing the market.

 

[Kryptocoin]

Yes, the average person is being priced out. But that does also strengthen the rental market. Anything that is in the buy box for black rock and others gets an extremely aggressive cash offer.

The music will stop when interest rates become much higher, but even with 6 or so increases this year, rates will still be at all time lows. I just don't think 2022 is the year of the crash. The rates will still be very reasonable, and this demand isn't going away in 10 months.

So then the question is that if the market is going to keep going up another 8 to 12 percent, why not just buy now, time in the market is always more important than timing the market.

That's true for stocks (unless you're buying stocks on the margin) but I'm not so sure if that's true for real estate. Most investors can wait out a downturn in the stock market since they are not buying stocks on the margin. But in a real estate in a downturn, you still have mortgage due every month. How long can you wait it out if you have 5 real estate units? People that bought at the peak of the market in 2006/2007 were still underwater a decade out.

 

[cyanide12345678]

That's true for stocks (unless you're buying stocks on the margin) but I'm not so sure if that's true for real estate. Most investors can wait out a downturn in the stock market since they are not buying stocks on the margin. But in a real estate in a downturn, you still have mortgage due every month. How long can you wait it out if you have 5 real estate units? People that bought at the peak of the market in 2006/2007 were still underwater a decade out.

Most investors who are doing it properly will have cash reserves and emergency funds for each property in case of prolonged vacancy or emergency repairs. 6 months is plenty of time to replace a tenant that isn't paying, depending on the state. Worst case scenario you lower your rental rates to improve vacancy, there will always be a price point where you will have a renter, regardless an experienced investor who has a cash flowing property with some cash reserves has flexibility and can wait. Also the pool of renters goes up in a crash as people are losing their homes and switching to becoming renters.

 

[Groove]

That's true for stocks (unless you're buying stocks on the margin) but I'm not so sure if that's true for real estate. Most investors can wait out a downturn in the stock market since they are not buying stocks on the margin. But in a real estate in a downturn, you still have mortgage due every month. How long can you wait it out if you have 5 real estate units? People that bought at the peak of the market in 2006/2007 were still underwater a decade out.

Part of the reason I've never been a fan of real estate investing. The only real advantage to me is that you can more easily leverage debt for theoretical increased ROI compared to margin investing for stocks. Then again, that can easily go against you. I also don't like the lack of liquidity. Human's crave the tangible nature of real estate though so I get it. You can drive past the property, feel it, touch it, etc.. "Here is something that is MINE!". More headaches IMO. I'd much rather expose myself to real estate through a REIT vs the real thing but to each his own. Any time I've calculated savings through tax deductions, etc.. it doesn't make up for transaction/management/maintenance/etc. costs.

If I ended up getting a property, it would be something like a condo/turn key property at a location where I like to vacation where I wouldn't mind renting it out when I'm not there, etc.. Some of these resort places are ridiculous though and sell you the condo wanting 50% rental revenue. No thanks.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Part of the reason I've never been a fan of real estate investing. The only real advantage to me is that you can more easily leverage debt for theoretical increased ROI compared to margin investing for stocks. Then again, that can easily go against you. I also don't like the lack of liquidity. Human's crave the tangible nature of real estate though so I get it. You can drive past the property, feel it, touch it, etc.. "Here is something that is MINE!". More headaches IMO. I'd much rather expose myself to real estate through a REIT vs the real thing but to each his own. Any time I've calculated savings through tax deductions, etc.. it doesn't make up for transaction/management/maintenance/etc. costs.

If I ended up getting a property, it would be something like a condo/turn key property at a location where I like to vacation where I wouldn't mind renting it out when I'm not there, etc.. Some of these resort places are ridiculous though and sell you the condo wanting 50% rental revenue. No thanks.

Real estate is more steady. Leverage imo is key. You can find 20% cash on cash on occassion and have upside as well. It’s a pain in the butt but I think it’s wise for diversification.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Real estate is more steady. Leverage imo is key. You can find 20% cash on cash on occassion and have upside as well. It’s a pain in the butt but I think it’s wise for diversification.

Does not have to be a pain in the butt if you just go the syndication route. I'm now at a point where i can review a deal within 5 minutes to even see if its worth going into the details. Plenty of very good deals pop up fairly frequently. Though most syndications don't have 20 percent cash on cash, though the IRR is usually around 17-22 % depending on the type of deal, but most of the money is on the sale and disposition of the asset. Most of them are around 6-8 percent cash on cash. The best cash on cash deals I've seen that I'm invested in gave 12% ish cash on cash - both of them are offices. One of them is the building next to the Willis tower, it's a 20 something floors building which is the headquarters of nielsen. The other is an office building across the great mall of America with tenants like the IRS.

But 20 percent cash on cash is usually only possible in single family homes in terrible C minus or D neighborhoods where you can get a SFH for 50 to 100k or something like that. That 20 percent cash on cash return comes with it's own set of issues when your rental clientele isn't the best. The only other 20+ percent cash on cash return that you see is with short term rentals, which obviously are a lot more work and active management.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Does not have to be a pain in the butt if you just go the syndication route. I'm now at a point where i can review a deal within 5 minutes to even see if its worth going into the details. Plenty of very good deals pop up fairly frequently. Though most syndications don't have 20 percent cash on cash, though the IRR is usually around 17-22 % depending on the type of deal, but most of the money is on the sale and disposition of the asset. Most of them are around 6-8 percent cash on cash. The best cash on cash deals I've seen that I'm invested in gave 12% ish cash on cash - both of them are offices. One of them is the building next to the Willis tower, it's a 20 something floors building which is the headquarters of nielsen. The other is an office building across the great mall of America with tenants like the IRS.

But 20 percent cash on cash is usually only possible in single family homes in terrible C minus or D neighborhoods where you can get a SFH for 50 to 100k or something like that. That 20 percent cash on cash return comes with it's own set of issues when your rental clientele isn't the best. The only other 20+ percent cash on cash return that you see is with short term rentals, which obviously are a lot more work and active management.

Gotta scrounge for deals. Overall your post is spot on.

 

[deleted1114045]

Does not have to be a pain in the butt if you just go the syndication route. I'm now at a point where i can review a deal within 5 minutes to even see if its worth going into the details. Plenty of very good deals pop up fairly frequently. Though most syndications don't have 20 percent cash on cash, though the IRR is usually around 17-22 % depending on the type of deal, but most of the money is on the sale and disposition of the asset. Most of them are around 6-8 percent cash on cash. The best cash on cash deals I've seen that I'm invested in gave 12% ish cash on cash - both of them are offices. One of them is the building next to the Willis tower, it's a 20 something floors building which is the headquarters of nielsen. The other is an office building across the great mall of America with tenants like the IRS.

But 20 percent cash on cash is usually only possible in single family homes in terrible C minus or D neighborhoods where you can get a SFH for 50 to 100k or something like that. That 20 percent cash on cash return comes with it's own set of issues when your rental clientele isn't the best. The only other 20+ percent cash on cash return that you see is with short term rentals, which obviously are a lot more work and active management.

Why can you make more money on run down properties where poor people live? That seems counter-intuitive.