Background check before starting residency

[Sea_Bass]

I know they do a criminal background check, but what about past employers?

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[J ROD]

They even call your kindergarten teacher and see how many blocks you could stack........

Shit is DEEP in your background!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

We will not contact past employers. If you listed your past employers on your ERAS application, that was our chance to contact them. That said, I'm a bit worried why you're asking. If you did something "bad enough" at a prior employer, that could always come back to hurt you.

 

[letmeinwillya]

If I did volunteer work for an organization and wasn't paid, should I still list that as an employer?I'm thinking not.

 

[J ROD]

If I did volunteer work for an organization and wasn't paid, should I still list that as an employer?I'm thinking not.

No

 

[Sea_Bass]

We will not contact past employers. If you listed your past employers on your ERAS application, that was our chance to contact them. That said, I'm a bit worried why you're asking. If you did something "bad enough" at a prior employer, that could always come back to hurt you.

I understand that I'm asking an odd question, but I have a good reason to be concerned.

This Friday, I spoke with the 3rd party background check/employment verification company that my new residency program uses, and it turns out that Yes, they do employment verification, including the dates of all my last jobs for the last 7 years, plus asking my former employers whether or not I am trustworthy, honest, punctual, blah blah blah.

The reason I'm extremely concerned about this is because I was let go from my last job part way through my interview season. Here's the story in the shortest possible form: I chose to work for a small practice as a med assistant during my downtime between graduation and residency. (I graduated off-cycle.) It was a big mistake, as the place I worked for had the most toxic, malignant environment. Partway through the winter I gave them 8 weeks notice (8 weeks!) to find someone else to work that job. Out of spite, they fired me on the spot. I promptly filed for unemployment. They filed an appeal and lost since I was fired for no other reason than spite. Their unemployment taxes will now go up considerably and they are FURIOUS about it. In fact, during their unemployment appeal hearing they tried saying I quit voluntarily, that I was rude and unprofessional, but when asked to provide any evidence of this or explain specific examples, they couldn't. That's why I won my case. So yeah, now I have no choice but to relax on FUNemployment til residency starts, which didn't seem so bad until now.

They (a husband and wife team who ran the practice and were the only other employees except for a secretary) pretty much hate me for having the gall to know my rights and stand up for myself. I am 110% certain that if given the opportunity, they would slander me during an employment verification.

For the time being, I'd like to disregard the fact that that could open themselves up to a lawsuit. All I care about is putting these awful people behind me and going into my awesome new residency position with a clean slate.

So I guess all I can do at this point is sign the forms that give them permission to do the background check/employment verification thing and hope for the best, but to be honest, I'm stressed out thinking something bad is going to happen--like the hospital will revoke my contract for something based on what my former employer says about me. It's like I'm in middle school all over again, waiting to get called to the principal's office. Maybe I'll be in huge trouble. Maybe I won't.

Edit: I'd like to reiterate that I have always--in my past professional life, during medical school, during all my rotations, and at all my jobs--conducted myself in a mature and professional manner. There are no conduct incidents in my past, and with this current job I was never accused of doing anything specific. It was just a terrible place to work.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Did you list them on your reference?

 

[lodestar]

some food for thought here...

It would seem LIKELY that your former contentious employer would indeed report negatives about you. Just a guess here, but the PD might want to have a sit-down with you to go over the details.

But in order to renege on you for your residency slot, the program would have to go to a lot of trouble. Your Step scores and other credentials are what they are. They interviewed you and liked what they thought they saw.

I was a banker back in the day (on SDN some because my daughter just matched at a top Ortho program...SDN has benefited us since 2011 when I first started gleaning things about medical schools, and then the Step, etc., here). I crossed swords with a mental case early on in my banking career. He actually wanted to sit on and keep me rather than let me accept a promotional move elsewhere within the bank. The company took his side initially ("might makes right"/perception is reality), which ended my future at that bank (my first employer). Some years later, the guy literally put a gun to his head and blew his brains out-- I KID YOU NOT! He had later then moved on only to fail elsewhere more than once (he might have been bipolar). When I left that first bank some months later for a MUCH BETTER bank, it was said that I had become the first chink in his armor.

But life did not come back to me later and say: "Hey guy, you were RIGHT! The guy was a nut/unbalanced, and you were treated unfairly/screwed! You should have gotten that promotional move!"

I tell my 3 adult children---> life is certainly not always fair. Watch out for yourself, and stand up for yourself as necessary the best that you can.

My other daughter, a budding hospital administration exec (MBA/MHA), had to endure a toxic female area/divisional exec at a huge public hospital (1,000 bed) who kept driving people away by perpetuating a malignant working environment (innuendo/gossip and discord were seemingly fostered). Sure enough, they finally fired the wicked witch...just as I had predicted...and her former obsequious sycophants were then doomed as well. Our daughter had outlasted her and then continued to do well.

Try to put it out of your mind, but if the PD calls you in, think through what you want to say. Point to the OTHER positive references you received. A practice with just 3 full-time people (and 2 of them are married) was simply an incredibly insular environment. Doctors are generally brighter than average (at least in math/science focus things), but that does not also make them reasonable and certainly not knowledgeable about fair employment practices. Any tiny practice risks insularity and self-absorption.

 

[Sea_Bass]

Did you list them on your reference?

I did back in September when I applied through ERAS. It's all over my CV, and I couldn't change it after things went south. The job looks amazing on paper for the access it gave me to direct patient care and honing of my clinical skills. I made sure to mention that during many of my interviews as well, since the question of "What have you been doing with your down time?" always came up.

My new residency program sent me a list of the employers they'd be checking. This toxic place is first on the list.

 

[Sea_Bass]

some food for thought here...

It would seem LIKELY that your former contentious employer would indeed report negatives about you. Just a guess here, but the PD might want to have a sit-down with you to go over the details.

But in order to renege on you for your residency slot, the program would have to go to a lot of trouble. Your Step scores and other credentials are what they are. They interviewed you and liked what they thought they saw.

I was a banker back in the day (on SDN some because my daughter just matched at a top Ortho program...SDN has benefited us since 2011 when I first started gleaning things about medical schools, and then the Step, etc., here). I crossed swords with a mental case early on in my banking career. He actually wanted to sit on and keep me rather than let me accept a promotional move elsewhere within the bank. The company took his side initially ("might makes right"/perception is reality), which ended my future at that bank (my first employer). Some years later, the guy literally put a gun to his head and blew his brains out-- I KID YOU NOT! He had later then moved on only to fail elsewhere more than once (he might have been bipolar). When I left that first bank some months later for a MUCH BETTER bank, it was said that I had become the first chink in his armor.

But life did not come back to me later and say: "Hey guy, you were RIGHT! The guy was a nut/unbalanced, and you were treated unfairly/screwed! You should have gotten that promotional move!"

I tell my 3 adult children---> life is certainly not always fair. Watch out for yourself, and stand up for yourself as necessary the best that you can.

My other daughter, a budding hospital administration exec (MBA/MHA), had to endure a toxic female area/divisional exec at a huge public hospital (1,000 bed) who kept driving people away by perpetuating a malignant working environment (innuendo/gossip and discord were seemingly fostered). Sure enough, they finally fired the wicked witch...just as I had predicted...and her former obsequious sycophants were then doomed as well. Our daughter had outlasted her and then continued to do well.

Try to put it out of your mind, but if the PD calls you in, think through what you want to say. Point to the OTHER positive references you received. A practice with just 3 full-time people (and 2 of them are married) was simply an incredibly insular environment. Doctors are generally brighter than average (at least in math/science focus things), but that does not also make them reasonable and certainly not knowledgeable about fair employment practices. Any tiny practice risks insularity and self-absorption.

Thank you for your input. It always helps to have some perspective from the non-medical field. I would say from my own experiences, what you are saying about these types of toxic personalities is definitely true.

I can only hope you are correct about them not reneging on my contract. FWIW, I don't think my new program will be "out to get me." You never know though. They won't technically sign my contract until I jump through all the hoops (passing a drug screen, etc.), and first year residents are a dime a dozen. They could rescind my offer, put the word out about an open PGY-1 position, and have it filled the next day. At this point, I'm still very expendable.

 

[rokshana]

I did back in September when I applied through ERAS. It's all over my CV, and I couldn't change it after things went south. The job looks amazing on paper for the access it gave me to direct patient care and honing of my clinical skills. I made sure to mention that during many of my interviews as well, since the question of "What have you been doing with your down time?" always came up.

My new residency program sent me a list of the employers they'd be checking. This toxic place is first on the list.

then you may want to get ahead of the check and let the PD know that you and that company parted on unfriendly terms.

 

[lorettau]

This situation is EERILY similar to one of my own (except I worked for the husband/wife duo before medical school). It was a highly toxic work environment with a male physician and female office "manager" + one secretary and two medical assistants. They had never kept a medical assistant for longer than 6 months (and the practice had been open for > 5 years). During my employment I became pregnant. They fired me when they found out (ummm that's not legal...) and I ended up applying for unemployment. I later miscarried. Despite the toxic environment, I was willing to stick things out until after the baby was born - they refused to keep me as an employee, stating I would have to miss "too many" days for doctor's appointments (which isn't true at all - the Ob/Gyn I saw had evening/weekend hours). I received unemployment benefits for six months, as allowed. Two YEARS later they appealed (on the appeal deadline). It was a nightmare and I'm STILL dealing with their nonsense (keep in mind I was employed by them for a total of 6 months - over 5 years ago!!!). I've never had an issue with ANY other job in the past (and I'm a fairly non-traditional student that worked in the medical field for several years before going to medical school). I have no idea what these employers would say about me, but I can't imagine they'd be very complimentary despite being a model employee (they're also highly bitter because their unemployment tax went up when they fired me).

Anyways, I totally get where you're coming from. I thought I was the only one in this predicament. I hope it works out in the end for both of us. Sorry you're going through this to.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Is there a document trail from the unemployment decision? If so, I would just let the PD know exactly what you shared here. State that you can provide the documentation from the unemployment hearing if desired.

 

[Sea_Bass]

Is there a document trail from the unemployment decision? If so, I would just let the PD know exactly what you shared here. State that you can provide the documentation from the unemployment hearing if desired.

I have definitely saved all my unemployment documents. They state that I filed for unemployment, it was appealed by my employer, and the state unemployment agency ultimately ruled in my favor. Although it doesn't go into detail, that speaks volumes in and of itself.

I submitted all my paperwork to my residency program today. I am debating whether to bring this up beforehand or just see if it even becomes an issue. If I try to get out ahead of it, I might just bring more attention myself and come across as paranoid and untrusting (I'm a believer in the Streisand Effect). But a strong case can be made for doing the opposite as well. I think I'll sleep on it...

 

[Rad review 1234]

May I ask which state is your residency that required such extensive background investigation?
Do you apply for an official medical license or a residency training permit ?

 

[Sea_Bass]

May I ask which state is your residency that required such extensive background investigation?
Do you apply for an official medical license or a residency training permit ?

PM'ed you.

 

[Sea_Bass]

Figured I'd post on this thread again to sort of bookend things...

I ultimately decided not to tell my program about my horrible ex-employer. I wanted to just let things play out naturally. In the end, I collected unemployment up until orientation, I never heard anything from the 3rd party background check people, and my hiring/orientation process went as smooth as any new PGY-1 could hope for.

I got my first paycheck yesterday and things are going great. I've received a few PMs from people in similar situations so hopefully posting my experience helps.

 

[Law2Doc]

Figured I'd post on this thread again to sort of bookend things...

I ultimately decided not to tell my program about my horrible ex-employer. I wanted to just let things play out naturally. In the end, I collected unemployment up until orientation, I never heard anything from the 3rd party background check people, and my hiring/orientation process went as smooth as any new PGY-1 could hope for.

I got my first paycheck yesterday and things are going great. I've received a few PMs from people in similar situations so hopefully posting my experience helps.

While I am glad it worked out for you, at the risk of being controversial, the teaching point is not really the one you are suggesting -- of running for luck and "letting things play out naturally". It's to NOT BURN BRIDGES by seeking unemployment in the first place if you are a pre-professional and have other avenues. A lot of people have left toxic employment settings without burning bridges. Many had the legal option of applying for unemployment but rather than accept it and the ill will and adversarity that may come with it wisely chose instead to do odd jobs to make ends meet until they found other full time employment, rather than "collect employment up until orientation". You milked every drop out of a subsidy system that wasn't really ever meant for doctor-bound pre-professional individuals and were fortunate it didn't come back to bite you in the form of a nasty reference. So that's really what others should learn from this. Just saying.

 

[Raryn]

While I am glad it worked out for you, at the risk of being controversial, the teaching point is not really the one you are suggesting -- of running for luck and "letting things play out naturally". It's to NOT BURN BRIDGES by seeking unemployment in the first place if you are a pre-professional and have other avenues. A lot of people have left toxic employment settings without burning bridges. Many had the legal option of applying for unemployment but rather than accept it and the ill will and adversarity that may come with it wisely chose instead to do odd jobs to make ends meet until they found other full time employment, rather than "collect employment up until orientation". You milked every drop out of a subsidy system that wasn't really ever meant for doctor-bound pre-professional individuals and were fortunate it didn't come back to bite you in the form of a nasty reference. So that's really what others should learn from this. Just saying.

I think it's somewhat disingenuous to basically give people the advice that they shouldn't take advantage of their legal right to unemployment after being terminated from a job. We pay into (either directly or via the employer putting in money that could have otherwise gone to pay us) unemployment insurance for a reason, and knowing your rights is anything but foolish.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think it's somewhat disingenuous to basically give people the advice that they shouldn't take advantage of their legal right to unemployment after being terminated from a job. We pay into (either directly or via the employer putting in money that could have otherwise gone to pay us) unemployment insurance for a reason, and knowing your rights is anything but foolish.

There are many choices in life that are legally permitted that but aren't wise. IMHO this is one. It's sometimes not a bad idea to bank goodwill by leaving something on the table. So this person got everything he was entitled to but at a great tactical cost, which was foolish and could very well have come back to bite him. That's the lesson here. So sure "know your rights" but think long and hard before you exercise them because a good reference might be worth more to you down the road than a couple of bucks, especially in this career path. It's the classic Pyrrhic victory issue -- don't win the battle but lose the war.

 

[neuroace]

We will not contact past employers. If you listed your past employers on your ERAS application, that was our chance to contact them. That said, I'm a bit worried why you're asking. If you did something "bad enough" at a prior employer, that could always come back to hurt you.

Do you contact the applicants medical school and find out records they have on the student?

 

[PDTY]

Do you contact the applicants medical school and find out records they have on the student?

That is a lot of work. We are looking at hundreds of applications, and then "many" interviewed applicant applications. In special circumstances would I reach out to the school, and it would be over something that occurred in medical school. If the MSPE references something, I would look into it. But to go back and ask everyone's research mentor, past employer, past volunteer coordinator.... I'd rather go walk my dog. 100+ times.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Do you contact the applicants medical school and find out records they have on the student?

Weird question, and most of the "records" they have on you beyond what is already shared via MSPE is protected by FERPA. I suppose counseling (both career and mental health) and other medical records are included in this. What exactly are you trying to ask here?

 

[neuroace]

Weird question, and most of the "records" they have on you beyond what is already shared via MSPE is protected by FERPA. I suppose counseling (both career and mental health) and other medical records are included in this. What exactly are you trying to ask here?

That is a lot of work. We are looking at hundreds of applications, and then "many" interviewed applicant applications. In special circumstances would I reach out to the school, and it would be over something that occurred in medical school. If the MSPE references something, I would look into it. But to go back and ask everyone's research mentor, past employer, past volunteer coordinator.... I'd rather go walk my dog. 100+ times.

Say if someone stupidly admitted to feeling anxiety upon re-sitting a subject in 1st year, and this was noted down by the stage convenor... But as an IMG- i mean, we don't have to include *everything* on our MSPE- i've heard you can just include your clinical med school grades if you're part of a twinning system.

This particular thing really stresses me.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Say if someone stupidly admitted to feeling anxiety upon re-sitting a subject in 1st year, and this was noted down by the stage convenor... But as an IMG- i mean, we don't have to include *everything* on our MSPE- i've heard you can just include your clinical med school grades if you're part of a twinning system.

This particular thing really stresses me.

... I have no idea what you just said. Once again, in English?

Regardless, programs are WAY too busy to call schools (especially foreign ones!) to check up on applicants. Plus in the US it would probably be a match violation.

Relax.