Behind-the-scenes Interview Deliberations

[spongioform]

Any residents/attendings willing to shed light on what takes place during rank list deliberations? I realize the variabity must be immense among different programs and specialties, but just general things like-is there a powerpoint with everyone's photo and stats and do members just give their impression of each candidate as their image is shown? at some programs there are scoring sheets that each interviewer has with different subjective qualities...once these are tallied up, is the score the sole determinant? how much do prior stats that were important in obtaining the interview matter once the interview has occured-is it solely interview-based when the meetings occur or do previous data like board scores continue to matter as the list is generated...any other thoughts about what goes on behind the scenes is encouraged. this might not prove useful for this season as many have already completed their interviews, but i think it is educational for the applicants to know how to best optimize their interviews in order for the best chance at a successful match.

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[Cathyran]

I second this. I would love to know how the ranking process works on the other end.

 

[anonperson]

In my residency program, our Chair/PD will go over all of the applicants with us one by one and we'll group them based on thirds (top, middle, low). The actual individualized ranking is up to them. If there is an applicant we don't feel is a good fit and would not want to match, we make our feelings known as well and the leadership takes this into account and will either rank them lowly or not rank them (this is rare if we find an applicant that bad).

At my medical school, a large academic program, I know for the OB GYN department, the applicants would essentially be put on a board (complete with their stats such as Step scores etc) and the residents would have a fairly large say in who they did and did not want in the program.

I know that other programs have less input from their residents and some are strictly based on a point system derived of whatever parameters the program deems important.

 

[group_theory]

For residency

we meet as a group (PD, assistant PD, program coordinator, faculties, residents). A preliminary rank list has been prepared, based on a numerical value (summation of board scores, class rank, clerkship grades, interview scores, etc). Each applicant has a quick profile that basically summarizes your entire ERAS (plus interviews). We review the list, and move people up that we really like, and move people down that we don't like. If there are discrepancies between interview scores (different interviewers gave different scores), we look at the interviewer comments to see why they are different. Sometimes we have a candidate that we really don't like - and we debate whether we should rank that candidate very low, or not rank at all. Sometimes we have a candidate that we really like ... and move that candidate up significantly on the rank list. For the vast majority of candidates, their rank order remains unchanged (not moved up or down). Once we're happy with the final list, the program director will look over the final list one last time before submitting it to NRMP.

Then, like you, we wait for the results.

 

[Buzz Me]

Similar to the above. We've already compiled a tentative rank list based on numbers and interview grades...then we discuss each candidate, one at a time, and change the rankings accordingly. People that have worked directly with the candidate (whether they're from this med school or did an away rotation here) speak up, as do the interviewers. Everyone in the room (large conference room) has each applicant's file.

 

[turkeyjerky]

so what're the discussions about each applicant like? I mean, how long do they last, what level of detail do you guys go into regarding their files, what's the general flavor of discussion like?

 

[Buzz Me]

so what're the discussions about each applicant like? I mean, how long do they last, what level of detail do you guys go into regarding their files, what's the general flavor of discussion like?

For an average-sized residency program, one that interviews around 80-100 applicants? You're looking at spending 2-3 minutes per applicant, tops (this is in the general meeting...note that the preliminary ranking was already done before this).

I can only imagine how quickly the discussions must go in those huge programs that Match 70-100 interns, and therefore rank 200 applicants.

 

[koc123]

I was a obgyn resident at a top NE program. We only have two interview days each year, and residents are encouraged to mingle with the applicants. Some time after the interviews, the residents would meet with the PD and PC and talk about some specific applicants. Residents would recommend applicants that they liked and applicants that they didn't like. For better or worse, the applicants from our medical school would always come under the most scrutiny, because we have worked with them during their rotations. We didn't talk about board scores, but if an applicant had a particularly stellar LOR then it would be brought up. For us, being an obgyn program (which tend to be small-6 residents a year for most programs), we really wanted to match applicants that we would love to have as colleagues for the next few years. We didn't actually see the rank list though. We weren't privy to the specifics of the list-ie how many do they rank, the actual rank order.
That's how we used to do it. I think every program is very different.

 

[Harrison486]

This is a very interesting topic (and one that I have wondered about the entirety of the interview season). Thanks for all the responses.

 

[wannabeOBGYN]

I overheard some residents talking about interview stuff when I was on an ob/gyn away rotation a few months ago. Their PD put everything (including his personal notes from interviews with individual students) online in some sort of locked account and then gave the more senior residents access to look things over and give input.

 

[peppy]

At one place where I was privvy to the selection process, they would put every applicant's photo in a powerpoint slidehow, then have a meeting where they would show it to all the residents asking if anyone had any impressions positive or negative about the applicant. If an applicant gave off a weird vibe to the residents or the program coordinator, the PD took it seriously.

 

[deleted109597]

If you've seen Animal House, it goes sort of like the scene where they're picking who to join the frat. Minus the beers. Sometimes.

 

[Vita]

If you've seen Animal House, it goes sort of like the scene where they're picking who to join the frat. Minus the beers. Sometimes.

The whole match process is actually really similar to how my school did Sorority matching: Potential members rank their sororities, sororities meet up and discuss all potential members and make an "A" list, a "B" list, etc. Then they get matched up.

 

[LoveSparkle]

From my interview experience, I noticed at some programs the residents definitely had more of a say than others. At one program, residents were actually a part of the interview itself, had access to scores and letters of rec. Other programs just had residents present for lunch.

Personally, I think its a little strange for residents to have access to our full application because in just a few short months we will be a part of their resident team. I think its great (and a good idea) to have them involved in selecting residents based on how you vibe with them, but I don't think they need to know scores and grades.

 

[2012mdc]

From my interview experience, I noticed at some programs the residents definitely had more of a say than others. At one program, residents were actually a part of the interview itself, had access to scores and letters of rec. Other programs just had residents present for lunch.

Personally, I think its a little strange for residents to have access to our full application because in just a few short months we will be a part of their resident team. I think its great (and a good idea) to have them involved in selecting residents based on how you vibe with them, but I don't think they need to know scores and grades.

If a resident is going to interview you like an attending does then I don't really see a problem with them having access to our full application. If they have a legitimate voice in the ranking process then the more info the better.

Residents are too busy and have too much other stuff going to worry about anyone's application after the ranking process. I served on the admissions committee for med school and forgot about people's numbers as soon as the meeting was over. Once the decision is made all that stuff is irrelevant.

 

[turkeyjerky]

From my interview experience, I noticed at some programs the residents definitely had more of a say than others. At one program, residents were actually a part of the interview itself, had access to scores and letters of rec. Other programs just had residents present for lunch.

Personally, I think its a little strange for residents to have access to our full application because in just a few short months we will be a part of their resident team. I think its great (and a good idea) to have them involved in selecting residents based on how you vibe with them, but I don't think they need to know scores and grades.

I think it's silly to be interviewed by someone who doesn't have access to your application. It definitely gives the whole interview a weird vibe. I interview applicants for med school and they don't give us their app--it's really screwy from the interviewer's side.

Why do you think residents shouldn't be able to see your app? I think it's a non-issue. Yeah, they'll be your "co-residents" in a few months, but they'll also be your seniors and supervisors as well. Plus, I doubt anyone's gonna remember what your step 1 score was.

 

[LoveSparkle]

I agree, if someone is interviewing you they should probably have whatever information.. and I also think that no one is remembering numbers and scores. I just ultimately feel the interview process shouldn't be done by residents. Even in medical school - I think its odd to have another student be an interviewer.

I feel like it takes years of experience in teaching to be a good gauge of what a candidate can offer. Anyways, this def isn't the case for residency (or medschool)... I was merely adding that I noticed that residents can definitely play a major role

 

[2012mdc]

I agree, if someone is interviewing you they should probably have whatever information.. and I also think that no one is remembering numbers and scores. I just ultimately feel the interview process shouldn't be done by residents. Even in medical school - I think its odd to have another student be an interviewer.

I feel like it takes years of experience in teaching to be a good gauge of what a candidate can offer. Anyways, this def isn't the case for residency (or medschool)... I was merely adding that I noticed that residents can definitely play a major role

So you don't think young attendings can be a good gauge of what applicants have to offer?

I think it's good to have residents involved. They often can better pick up on things that applicants might hide with attendings. Also they are less removed from the process and understand what it takes to succeed as a resident - the residents involved are usually chiefs from what I've experienced.

 

[LoveSparkle]

So you don't think young attendings can be a good gauge of what applicants have to offer?

I think it's good to have residents involved. They often can better pick up on things that applicants might hide with attendings. Also they are less removed from the process and understand what it takes to succeed as a resident - the residents involved are usually chiefs from what I've experienced.

I totally agree, chiefs and young attendings might be more in tune. I've had interns interview me though...

 

[2012mdc]

I totally agree, chiefs and young attendings might be more in tune. I've had interns interview me though...

Yeah that's not cool.

I'm applying for rads so obviously interns can't interview me but I've never had a resident below a PGY5 interview me.

Interview season starts before interns are even halfway done. Using interns as interviewers doesn't seem logical

 

[wannabeOBGYN]

I totally agree, chiefs and young attendings might be more in tune. I've had interns interview me though...

I've had residents ranging from intern to chief interview me. I think rising chiefs make the most sense as interviewers, since they're the ones who will essentially be in charge of the interns. I agree with you and others that interns are not a wise choice for interviews, and I don't think second years are either.

 

[smq123]

Personally, I think its a little strange for residents to have access to our full application because in just a few short months we will be a part of their resident team. I think its great (and a good idea) to have them involved in selecting residents based on how you vibe with them, but I don't think they need to know scores and grades.

As a resident who has interviewed several applicants for the past two seasons, I can tell you that I don't have access to your grades and scores. All I know is whether or not you passed Step 1, 2, and CS, or whether you haven't taken them yet. And since you've been offered an interview, it's a guarantee that you've passed Step 1 and 2....otherwise you wouldn't have been offered an interview.

I also don't have access to your personal statement.

Just because I have some printouts from ERAS in front of me doesn't mean I've flipped through your entire application. I was given a packet from ERAS that included extracurriculars, work experience, and demographics, but nothing else.

I totally agree, chiefs and young attendings might be more in tune. I've had interns interview me though...

I actually think it is a very GOOD sign that interns are interviewing you. It indicates that a program actually values the opinions of the interns. It's not unusual for programs to basically ignore everything that an intern says, and for interns to have NO say about the incoming class. That, to me, would be a worse sign.

(Or it's a sign that they don't want the interns to blab to you about how miserable they are.)

Just because someone is an intern doesn't mean that they're too emotionally immature to interview you. You don't need years of experience as a physician to know if you want to spend the next few years working with the person on the other side of the desk.

 

[2012mdc]

As a resident who has interviewed several applicants for the past two seasons, I can tell you that I don't have access to your grades and scores. All I know is whether or not you passed Step 1, 2, and CS, or whether you haven't taken them yet. And since you've been offered an interview, it's a guarantee that you've passed Step 1 and 2....otherwise you wouldn't have been offered an interview.

I also don't have access to your personal statement.

Just because I have some printouts from ERAS in front of me doesn't mean I've flipped through your entire application. I was given a packet from ERAS that included extracurriculars, work experience, and demographics, but nothing else.



I actually think it is a very GOOD sign that interns are interviewing you. It indicates that a program actually values the opinions of the interns. It's not unusual for programs to basically ignore everything that an intern says, and for interns to have NO say about the incoming class. That, to me, would be a worse sign.

(Or it's a sign that they don't want the interns to blab to you about how miserable they are.)

Just because someone is an intern doesn't mean that they're too emotionally immature to interview you. You don't need years of experience as a physician to know if you want to spend the next few years working with the person on the other side of the desk.

I've had residents directly comment on my scores and grades so at least some programs are giving residents full applications.

I think it's very valid to give junior residents an input and we interact with them at the pre-IV dinners and at lunch. I just rather be interviewed by a chief resident who can better answer questions about call schedules, the differences between various rotations and different sites, any malignant attendings etc. Chiefs also have a better idea of what it takes to succeed in the program.

 

[smq123]

I think it's very valid to give junior residents an input and we interact with them at the pre-IV dinners and at lunch. I just rather be interviewed by a chief resident who can better answer questions about call schedules, the differences between various rotations and different sites, any malignant attendings etc. Chiefs also have a better idea of what it takes to succeed in the program.

Fair enough.

I just don't think it's a huge deal to be interviewed by an intern provided that you also get a chance to talk with chief residents at some point. I don't particularly think an intern is all that much less qualified to figure out who they want to work with next year than a PGY-3. Some of our interns had to interview job applicants before coming to med school.

It's also sometimes a question of who has enough time to sit down and interview people. Sometimes, it's an intern.

It's also beneficial to us, when we rank applicants. Sadly, we've had applicants who were really really nice to senior residents and attendings, but were not all that nice to interns, even those that gave the interview or the tour. Not a good sign.

 

[docmed2012]

So do the PDs share with their residents who they are planning to rank in the top 10? Or do they pretty much just get input from their residents on applicants and keep the ROL information confidential for the most part?

 

[Buzz Me]

During our rank order list meeting, the entire ranking (of all the competitive applicants) is made public to everyone in the conference room.

 

[jcu]

During our rank order list meeting, the entire ranking (of all the competitive applicants) is made public to everyone in the conference room.

As in, the top 20? 30? 40?

 

[Buzz Me]

As in, the top 20? 30? 40?

We have a big program. So at least top 30.

 

[docmed2012]

Wow thats interesting....I have heard of a few programs where they discuss each applicant, but the residents don't get to see the final ROL.

 

[Sheldor]

I've seen a fellowship rank meeting where they made the list all together using 8.5x11 photos of all the applicants and a cork board! Moral of the story, make sure you use a good picture for ERAS.

 

[2012mdc]

I've seen a fellowship rank meeting where they made the list all together using 8.5x11 photos of all the applicants and a cork board! Moral of the story, make sure you use a good picture for ERAS.

Our school emphasized this (as well as told us they would reject bad pictures) but I feel like it's common sense. You're applying for residency, why wouldn't you use a good photo in which you appear professional? I guess I'm giving med students too much credit though

 

[Buzz Me]

Our school emphasized this (as well as told us they would reject bad pictures) but I feel like it's common sense. You're applying for residency, why wouldn't you use a good photo in which you appear professional? I guess I'm giving med students too much credit though

Having gone through the other side of this process, you'd be amazed at how many applicants either (1) don't include a photo, or (2) don't have a professional take the photograph.

 

[K31]

Our school emphasized this (as well as told us they would reject bad pictures) but I feel like it's common sense. You're applying for residency, why wouldn't you use a good photo in which you appear professional? I guess I'm giving med students too much credit though

Our dean tells a story about an otherwise excellent applicant that wasn't ranked because of the photo. That was a pretty extreme case, but it happens (and no, it wasn't an obscene photo).

(Sorry for being vague, but the details are pretty identifiable and I try to maintain anonymity so far as my school is concerned).

 

[2012mdc]

Having gone through the other side of this process, you'd be amazed at how many applicants either (1) don't include a photo, or (2) don't have a professional take the photograph.

I thought it was required to have a photo.

Our school told us not to worry about getting it done professionally. They just said dress professionally and use a white background (like a white wall indoors). I've seen interviewers pull up my pic with my file and it looked fine IMO

Some people used the professional pictures we took with our white coats but I hated mine so I didn't use it.

 

[bandw14]

My school arranged for a professional photographer, and we got several to choose from. Suits and ties.

 

[Buzz Me]

I've seen interviewers pull up my pic with my file and it looked fine IMO

I'm sure it looked fine. I'm just saying, it's those little things (when all else is equal) that make the difference between otherwise similar applicants.

For those trying to save money on taking professional photos...really? After all the money you'll spend on interviews (flights, hotels, rental cars, parking, etc.)? What's another $100?

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm sure it looked fine. I'm just saying, it's those little things (when all else is equal) that make the difference between otherwise similar applicants.

For those trying to save money on taking professional photos...really? After all the money you'll spend on interviews (flights, hotels, rental cars, parking, etc.)? What's another $100?

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Obv if the pics are crappy or unprofessional, fine. Otherwise that'd be a ridiculous reason to downgrade an applicant. You might as well choose the person with the rolex over the one with a seiko, obv they'd be a better resident.

 

[Buzz Me]

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Obv if the pics are crappy or unprofessional, fine.

That's what I'm saying. There are applicants who take their own photos, thinking, "hey, this looks fine," when in reality, it doesn't. Out of focus, camera too close, poor lighting, distracting shadows on background, grainy quality film...

 

[VisionaryTics]

That's what I'm saying. There are applicants who take their own photos, thinking, "hey, this looks fine," when in reality, it doesn't. Out of focus, camera too close, poor lighting, distracting shadows on background, grainy quality film...

"Hrm, the way the shadows cut obliquely behind the candidate speaks to his lack of clinical knowledge..."

 

[Smurfette]

I'm sure it looked fine. I'm just saying, it's those little things (when all else is equal) that make the difference between otherwise similar applicants.

For those trying to save money on taking professional photos...really? After all the money you'll spend on interviews (flights, hotels, rental cars, parking, etc.)? What's another $100?

It's doable for far less than $100. I went to JCPenney's or Sears with some of their "photo studio" coupons in hand---ones designed for people to take their cheesy family photos and stuff. Got the cheapest package with the size photo my school told us we needed. Cost me about $20, took maybe 20-30 minutes tops on a Saturday and looks professional.

 

[mcl]

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Obv if the pics are crappy or unprofessional, fine. Otherwise that'd be a ridiculous reason to downgrade an applicant. You might as well choose the person with the rolex over the one with a seiko, obv they'd be a better resident.

It's a detail thing. We expect an applicant for a serious, professional job to provide an appropriate photo. Not a glamor-shot photo, not an artsy photo taken from a weird angle, not an afterthought photo with a camera phone taken of him/herself while driving. (Yea, I've gotten all of those). It's like applicants who can't pay attention to a small detail like that are screaming "I don't care!" and that's the impression our faculty and residents get before they even meet the applicant.

So, yes, my program has moved applicants down on the rank list because of the photo they submitted.

 

[drizzt3117]

It's a detail thing. We expect an applicant for a serious, professional job to provide an appropriate photo. Not a glamor-shot photo, not an artsy photo taken from a weird angle, not an afterthought photo with a camera phone taken of him/herself while driving. (Yea, I've gotten all of those). It's like applicants who can't pay attention to a small detail like that are screaming "I don't care!" and that's the impression our faculty and residents get before they even meet the applicant.

So, yes, my program has moved applicants down on the rank list because of the photo they submitted.

My point is that if an applicant submits a tasteful head/shoulders shot of themselves in professional attire against a plain background, there's no need to have it professionally done.

 

[2012mdc]

My point is that if an applicant submits a tasteful head/shoulders shot of themselves in professional attire against a plain background, there's no need to have it professionally done.

I agree. My school approves all of our photos before they upload them into ERAS. They had no issues with such pictures.

 

[greenegal]

It's a detail thing. We expect an applicant for a serious, professional job to provide an appropriate photo. Not a glamor-shot photo, not an artsy photo taken from a weird angle, not an afterthought photo with a camera phone taken of him/herself while driving. (Yea, I've gotten all of those). It's like applicants who can't pay attention to a small detail like that are screaming "I don't care!" and that's the impression our faculty and residents get before they even meet the applicant.

So, yes, my program has moved applicants down on the rank list because of the photo they submitted.

Agreed. Our program has even moved people down our rank list for not having a photo at all. After all the people we've seen during the interview season, sometimes that's what reminds us who you are.

 

[WildMed16]

I'm fairly surprised to be reading that so many people got professional pics done. My school recommends getting a passport photo taken. They certainly do not approve them before uploading to ERAS. I thought it was more common sense than that.

I had my wife take a head and shoulder shot of me in a shirt and tie. I stood in front of a light background. I got to do any adjustments I saw fit. Cost me $0 and I looked good. I mean really good

 

[Sheldor]

I'm fairly surprised to be reading that so many people got professional pics done. My school recommends getting a passport photo taken. They certainly do not approve them before uploading to ERAS. I thought it was more common sense than that.

I had my wife take a head and shoulder shot of me in a shirt and tie. I stood in front of a light background. I got to do any adjustments I saw fit. Cost me $0 and I looked good. I mean really good

There's also a difference between you looking good and the picture looking good. It's fairly easy to tell the difference between the photo you are talking about and one taken professionally. Even though you are wearing the same clothes and using the same smile, the ultimate product will be different.

I doubt it hurt you, but still, it is noticeable. My personal opinion, is why risk it?

 

[drizzt3117]

There's also a difference between you looking good and the picture looking good. It's fairly easy to tell the difference between the photo you are talking about and one taken professionally. Even though you are wearing the same clothes and using the same smile, the ultimate product will be different.

I doubt it hurt you, but still, it is noticeable. My personal opinion, is why risk it?

You'd be surprised how much difference you can make with a little photoshop; as long as you take the picture in a well-lot room you'll be fine. I actually do photography professionally (weddings, engagements etc) and as long as the raw material is ok (lighting/background) you'll be fine.

 

[Sheldor]

You'd be surprised how much difference you can make with a little photoshop; as long as you take the picture in a well-lot room you'll be fine. I actually do photography professionally (weddings, engagements etc) and as long as the raw material is ok (lighting/background) you'll be fine.

Agreed. That is what I was meaning by professional. If you have a working knowledge of photoshop and lighting for portrait photography then you can probably take your own.

 

[umz]

My school has a multimedia service thats available for school promo work, etc. I think they charged $30 & it's as good as it gets--done in studio, nice background, photoshopped as much as you want. I'm pretty good with photoshop & considered doing it myself, but this guy did it much faster than i could have. I thought it was worth it.

 

[killerleaf]

Actually, the biggest thing is: When you show up to interview, try to at least resemble the photo you sent in. If you have: cut your hair, changed the color, got contacts, and lost (or gained) 50 pounds, resubmit your picture. Please. Or else do not be offended if you are not recognized!