Benefit to Rotating with Residents?

[Lexdiamondz]

well according to coca everyone should already have 1 wards expirence with residents in their 3rd year ideally in the field they are interested in.. you do multiple auditions anyway, so you can fill in the gaps you may have during your first rotation which will be in June/July of 4th year, also this is assuming you have never worked with residents but that’s literally not allowed by coca anymore and you can def get several wards based rotations in your 3rd year at most DO schools. Many people at my school have all of theirs as wards based with residents and mine isn’t even a school that people would consider as a “top” DO school. Regarding how your supposed to decide your specialty, you don’t have to necessarily work with residents to decide, if you enjoy surgery you will know that even with just a preceptor rotation, you do know that residency will suck regardless of specialty and you can get to see how surgery residents function in your 4th year if you weren’t able to do a wards based one in your third year.. the same goes for every specialty. You don’t need to see what an intern does in a particular specialty to decide if that’s what you want to do haha..

Sorry but this is wholly untrue.

If it was, general surgery wouldn't have an attrition rate of 20%, with most of the residents who quit leaving in their PGY1 and PGY2 years and largely to completely different specialties.

For the Media - Embargoed Access to the JAMA Network

Access embargoed news releases, journal articles, and JAMA Report Video releases from The JAMA Network.

media.jamanetwork.com

Why Do Residents Quit General Surgery Residencies? A Study of 789 Graduates from 3 Campuses Who Matched into General Surgery over 40 Years: 1974 to 2015

www.clinicsinsurgery.com

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Sorry but this is wholly untrue.

If it was, general surgery wouldn't have an attrition rate of 20%, with most of the residents who quit leaving in their PGY1 and PGY2 years and largely to completely different specialties.

For the Media - Embargoed Access to the JAMA Network

Access embargoed news releases, journal articles, and JAMA Report Video releases from The JAMA Network.

media.jamanetwork.com

Why Do Residents Quit General Surgery Residencies? A Study of 789 Graduates from 3 Campuses Who Matched into General Surgery over 40 Years: 1974 to 2015

www.clinicsinsurgery.com

I am soo confused, are you saying that 20% of all surgery residents quit because they didn’t have a wards based rotation in their 3rd year hahah? It’s most likely just that they liked surgery but general surgery residency sucks... many are MD students who have been on the wards thier entire 3rd year but still quit....

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I am soo confused

unsurprising

are you saying that 20% of all surgery residents quit because they didn’t have a wards based rotation in their 3rd year hahah? It’s most likely just that they liked surgery but general surgery residency sucks... many are MD students who have been on the wards thier entire 3rd year but still quit....

Let me clarify.

You're saying that you don't need to work with residents to know what you want to do.

I'm saying ideally you should work with residents for most, if not all of your 3rd year so that you can make an informed decision about what you want to do based off of a diverse set of clinical experiences with trainees in multiple specialties. Preceptorships are better suited for 4th year, where you have at least an educated idea of what you want and don't want, and have the pre-requisite knowledge necessary to actually benefit from 1 on 1 teaching and mentorship from an attending (if you are lucky enough to get a good preceptor, that is).

People go in to medical school thinking they want to do X and then do a rotation with residents in Y and change their mind all the time. However, you need to have the full experience of what the pathway to becoming Y actually entails. Doing preceptor-based rotations shows you what the endpoint is, but you never really get to see what reaching that endpoint involves.

If the only residents you've interacted with were surgery residents how will you know if you like peds? or anesthesia? or EM?

No, a wards-based core rotation isn't 100% foolproof in preventing attrition. That being said, at least someone who spent weeks on the wards with residents of a given specialty will have some sort of idea of what the demands of that training pathway will be, and they will additionally be better prepared to enter that pathway come July 1st.

 

[Chibucks15]

Academic medicine isn’t for everyone, and that’s how people can decide without working with residents in the field (again, not suggesting they do that). Some of the new DO schools have crap rotations but the older ones are fine mostly. For the fifth time, Nobody is saying that you should go for preceptor rotations, it’s just that the world isn’t gonna end if you get a chunk of them. I’ve honestly learned just as much without residents than with them. You should get wards rotations and be okay with some preceptor ones. Both points can be true. Everyone’s just talking in circles and getting feisty.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Academic medicine isn’t for everyone, and that’s how people can decide without working with residents in the field (again, not suggesting they do that). Some of the new DO schools have crap rotations but the older ones are fine mostly. For the fifth time, Nobody is saying that you should go for preceptor rotations, it’s just that the world isn’t gonna end if you get a chunk of them. I’ve honestly learned just as much without residents than with them. You should get wards rotations and be okay with some preceptor ones. Both points can be true. Everyone’s just talking in circles and getting feisty.

Academia vs community has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The working with residents part is about knowing whether or not you actually have the ability to get through the training, and preparing you to be an intern once you're in.

If anything, having a good sense of what the workload entails is even *more* important if you're going into community medicine after training. As an academic attending, your clinical workload will always be primarily carried by residents and interns so at some point you definitely wont be busting your arse.

On the contrary, in the community it's just you and maybe a midlevel or two. Your busiest and most challenging days can easily be as heavy as your worst days as a resident, even though the majority of the time they will be less.

Knowing all of this starts at the med student level when you're actually on the wards and can see all of this from top to bottom. Assuming you're paying attention, that is.

 

[musman9853]

unsurprising

Let me clarify.

You're saying that you don't need to work with residents to know what you want to do.

I'm saying ideally you should work with residents for most, if not all of your 3rd year so that you can make an informed decision about what you want to do based off of a diverse set of clinical experiences with trainees in multiple specialties. Preceptorships are better suited for 4th year, where you have at least an educated idea of what you want and don't want, and have the pre-requisite knowledge necessary to actually benefit from 1 on 1 teaching and mentorship from an attending (if you are lucky enough to get a good preceptor, that is).

People go in to medical school thinking they want to do X and then do a rotation with residents in Y and change their mind all the time. However, you need to have the full experience of what the pathway to becoming Y actually entails. Doing preceptor-based rotations shows you what the endpoint is, but you never really get to see what reaching that endpoint involves.

If the only residents you've interacted with were surgery residents how will you know if you like peds? or anesthesia? or EM?

No, a wards-based core rotation isn't 100% foolproof in preventing attrition. That being said, at least someone who spent weeks on the wards with residents of a given specialty will have some sort of idea of what the demands of that training pathway will be, and they will additionally be better prepared to enter that pathway come July 1st.

i mean, shouldn't you base what specialty you do off what the attending lifestyle and job is like? Something like peds, where the vast majority is outpatient, I feel like outpatient preceptorships would give you a better idea of what your career will look like rather than a inpatient peds wing with residents. Obviously if you can do both its best, but i dont think choosing a specialty based on what resident life is like is that great

 

[thumbz]

From 10+ years of experience trolling the depths of SDN and occasionally wading into the shallow end of the gene pool I promise this thread will never get to a resolution where everyone agrees. And it's fine - we can all pretend that every DO student out there (except a few hundred) fills up their whole 4th year with wards based electives. And I happen to only interview the few hundred. And that every DO school has their students do a wards based core in 3rd year (except for the few students who haven't that I've interviewed, but they're the only ones in the country). My program must be some sort of magnet for subpar clinically educated DO's.

As I said to all MSX's reading this, take everyone's advice with a grain of salt.

The problem with preceptorships is you never know what you're gonna get. As an n=1 - I had a preceptor based IM rotation where I worked 7-430 M-F and saw 2 patients/hr while my doc saw 2/hr and I presented and flipped back and forth as they charted.

I had another preceptor based IM (hospitalist) where my attending told me on day 1 I could keep whatever hours I wanted and he would give me an A anyways.

That latter rotation ended up with me getting a better eval... hence why I personally judge preceptor based rotations so harshly. I know EXACTLY what they can be like.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

From 10+ years of experience trolling the depths of SDN and occasionally wading into the shallow end of the gene pool I promise this thread will never get to a resolution where everyone agrees. And it's fine - we can all pretend that every DO student out there (except a few hundred) fills up their whole 4th year with wards based electives. And I happen to only interview the few hundred. And that every DO school has their students do a wards based core in 3rd year (except for the few students who haven't that I've interviewed, but they're the only ones in the country). My program must be some sort of magnet for subpar clinically educated DO's.

As I said to all MSX's reading this, take everyone's advice with a grain of salt.

The problem with preceptorships is you never know what you're gonna get. As an n=1 - I had a preceptor based IM rotation where I worked 7-430 M-F and saw 2 patients/hr while my doc saw 2/hr and I presented and flipped back and forth as they charted.

I had another preceptor based IM (hospitalist) where my attending told me on day 1 I could keep whatever hours I wanted and he would give me an A anyways.

That latter rotation ended up with me getting a better eval... hence why I personally judge preceptor based rotations so harshly. I know EXACTLY what they can be like.

Why are you still interviewing such DO’s then?

 

[Lexdiamondz]

i mean, shouldn't you base what specialty you do off what the attending lifestyle and job is like? Something like peds, where the vast majority is outpatient, I feel like outpatient preceptorships would give you a better idea of what your career will look like rather than a inpatient peds wing with residents. Obviously if you can do both its best, but i dont think choosing a specialty based on what resident life is like is that great

Ideally, yes. That being said, it still requires living like a resident for 3-7+ years in order to get to being an attending, and even if you theoretically find the attending lifestyle and job appealing, the actual training involved to get there may be insurmountable.

You may like the lifestyle of a colorectal surgeon, but can you survive 6 years of Q3 24 hour call, missing birthdays, holidays, weekends, weddings and reunions?

You may think the lifestyle of an EM attending is chill only working 36h weeks and having 18 days off a month, but can you deal with four years of 60 hour weeks where 50% of your shifts are overnights?

Most people end up becoming attendings and it's fine, but a fair number switch specialties or quit medicine altogether. Residency isn't just a minor inconvenience - people have gotten divorces over this **** and had their whole lives upended. Gotta go in with some level of awareness of what you're getting into.

 

[thumbz]

Why are you still interviewing such DO’s then?

You can't tell until you get them out there! It's why I have to ask about wards based experiences. ERAS tells me they did 3 IM rotations and I haven't the slightest idea what they actually looked like. I've had residents do preceptor rotations at large teaching institutions, so I can't use that as a clue. If you did IM at Mayo that doesn't guarantee it wasn't a preceptor based rotation.

And it's not like it's only DO's from brand new schools (which are less likely to get invited to interview). Well established schools have students who manage to slip under the radar - that's what happens when you have huge classes and fragmented rotation coordinators.

So don't get me wrong, I adore that you're getting a solid clinical based curriculum but I 100% guarantee you you're the exception and not the norm.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

You can't tell until you get them out there! It's why I have to ask about wards based experiences. ERAS tells me they did 3 IM rotations and I haven't the slightest idea what they actually looked like. I've had residents do preceptor rotations at large teaching institutions, so I can't use that as a clue. If you did IM at Mayo that doesn't guarantee it wasn't a preceptor based rotation.

And it's not like it's only DO's from brand new schools (which are less likely to get invited to interview). Well established schools have students who manage to slip under the radar - that's what happens when you have huge classes and fragmented rotation coordinators.

So don't get me wrong, I adore that you're getting a solid clinical based curriculum but I 100% guarantee you you're the exception and not the norm.

I agree with you, I am happy that my school gives us the option of wards based experiences in our 3 rd year. Also are you at a former aoa program? As far as the acgme is concerned a DO school is a DO school even if it’s brand new(for the most part). And I’ve seen some pretty great matches to MD prorgams in all specialties from even the newest DO schools, so I don’t think your interviewing habits are universal across the board.. also, I am not advocating this in anyway... but can’t folks just lie to an interviewer like yourself about the type of expirences they had? I mean if I did 3 IM rotations and all were preceptor based even if the sites they were at had residents, couldn’t people just say yea it was wards based and I spent time with residents on a team and went to didactics and blah blah... there’s literally no way to verify is their ? The mspe at my school is fairy generic and I don’t know if the mspe’s go in to that much detail about how the rotation was structured.Even a LOR won’t give that much detail since they will talk about the positive qualities of the student and how good they were and so forth, not about the type of rotation?

 

[Espressso]

And to add on top of this, many people do their entire 4th year as wards based rotations as elective rotations even in fields they are not applying to. Even with covid my school has entire sites that are fully wards based for 4 th year students. This whole thread is a moot point, if you want wards based rotations you can get them in your 4th year....

I'm in my 4th year and I disagree with this comment. While my entire fourth year as a DO student is shaping up to be entirely wards based with residents and embedded in med ed I can tell you this sure doesn't seem like the norm at all. Actually, the only way I've been able to set this up is to basically leave the state my school is in, and move back to my home state and become a permanent visiting student. Besides the fact that it's costed me hundreds of dollars on VSAS to do this, it's been really stressful as well (obviously COVID has contributed to this big time). Compare this to many of my friends from class who stayed back in our schools "statewide campus", the majority of their non-auditions are not ward-based, rather preceptor based. Can they make it the other way around, sure, but it likely takes a lot of planning and money as was the case with me. Many students just don't want to do that. And I don't really blame them. It doesn't impact their grad requirements really. They've gotten their one or two wards rotations in third year, the rest is up to our regional deans and staff, and they have to secure rotations in the end, too often with preceptors to fill the holes of the schedule.

This situation sure isn't universal between DO students across the country but imo that's one of the big issues with DO clinical education across the board: it's simply way too variable. Sure you can get ward based rotations for all your rotations if you really want to, but there really isn't a high enough standard for DO schools and their students. The COCA requirement of 1 or whatever ward rotations is weak. And it's not a knock at us DO students personally, we shouldn't take it that way. It's just the faulty system.

I think an easy positive step for DO education would be require all DO schools to have stricter clinical requirements and affiliations with teaching hospitals. And no new DO school should be able to get accreditation without a strong affiliation with a teaching hospital. I don't care about doctor shortages in rural alabama or missu or wherever. Each school should have a teaching hospital or two or three, that can accomodate all their students and their rotations

 

[thumbz]

Nope, I'm ACGME.

I caution your current thinking - we have all seen some great matches from new DO schools. And we have matched now stellar residents from new DO schools. But again, this is the EXCEPTION. When you give the advice you're giving you're basically saying "it doesn't matter where you go to school or what your clinical rotations look like you can match Plastics at Mass General". It's just not true for 99.9% of the students reading your posts.

It's like telling someone to go to SGU because one time they matched someone to Derm at Mayo.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Nope, I'm ACGME.

I caution your current thinking - we have all seen some great matches from new DO schools. And we have matched now stellar residents from new DO schools. But again, this is the EXCEPTION. When you give the advice you're giving you're basically saying "it doesn't matter where you go to school or what your clinical rotations look like you can match Plastics at Mass General". It's just not true for 99.9% of the students reading your posts.

It's like telling someone to go to SGU because one time they matched someone to Derm at Mayo.

Ohh no I get it, I am saying that people from new DO schools who had subpar clinical education were still able to match though, it will all depend on the individual at the end and how much effort they put in to the get best education they can get..

 

[thumbz]

Ohh no I get it, I am saying that people from new DO schools who had subpar clinical education were still able to match though, it will all depend on the individual at the end and how much effort they put in to the get best education they can get..

Boom! Spot on, now we are on the same page.

Students from new DO schools will absolutely continue to have successful matches, maybe just not at their top choices (or top programs). But they can work hard, get great Step/COMLEX scores and with a little luck and a lot of perseverance match at rockstar places.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I'm in my 4th year and I disagree with this comment. While my entire fourth year as a DO student is shaping up to be entirely wards based with residents and embedded in med ed I can tell you this sure doesn't seem like the norm at all. Actually, the only way I've been able to set this up is to basically leave the state my school is in, and move back to my home state and become a permanent visiting student. Besides the fact that it's costed me hundreds of dollars on VSAS to do this, it's been really stressful as well (obviously COVID has contributed to this big time). Compare this to many of my friends from class who stayed back in our schools "statewide campus", the majority of their non-auditions are not ward-based, rather preceptor based. Can they make it the other way around, sure, but it likely takes a lot of planning and money as was the case with me. Many students just don't want to do that. And I don't really blame them. It doesn't impact their grad requirements really. They've gotten their one or two wards rotations in third year, the rest is up to our regional deans and staff, and they have to secure rotations in the end, too often with preceptors to fill the holes of the schedule.

This situation sure isn't universal between DO students across the country but imo that's one of the big issues with DO clinical education across the board: it's simply way too variable. Sure you can get ward based rotations for all your rotations if you really want to, but there really isn't a high enough standard for DO schools and their students. The COCA requirement of 1 or whatever ward rotations is weak. And it's not a knock at us DO students personally, we shouldn't take it that way. It's just the faulty system.

I think an easy positive step for DO education would be require all DO schools to have stricter clinical requirements and affiliations with teaching hospitals. And no new DO school should be able to get accreditation without a strong affiliation with a teaching hospital. I don't care about doctor shortages in rural alabama or missu or wherever. Each school should have a teaching hospital or two or three, that can accomodate all their students and their rotations

I completely agree with you, we need better standards for all schools, I was just saying that you can do more wards based ones like how you are doing, if you want to.. most people don’t want to and I get it.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I'm in my 4th year and I disagree with this comment. While my entire fourth year as a DO student is shaping up to be entirely wards based with residents and embedded in med ed I can tell you this sure doesn't seem like the norm at all. Actually, the only way I've been able to set this up is to basically leave the state my school is in, and move back to my home state and become a permanent visiting student. Besides the fact that it's costed me hundreds of dollars on VSAS to do this, it's been really stressful as well (obviously COVID has contributed to this big time). Compare this to many of my friends from class who stayed back in our schools "statewide campus", the majority of their non-auditions are not ward-based, rather preceptor based. Can they make it the other way around, sure, but it likely takes a lot of planning and money as was the case with me. Many students just don't want to do that. And I don't really blame them. It doesn't impact their grad requirements really. They've gotten their one or two wards rotations in third year, the rest is up to our regional deans and staff, and they have to secure rotations in the end, too often with preceptors to fill the holes of the schedule.

This situation sure isn't universal between DO students across the country but imo that's one of the big issues with DO clinical education across the board: it's simply way too variable. Sure you can get ward based rotations for all your rotations if you really want to, but there really isn't a high enough standard for DO schools and their students. The COCA requirement of 1 or whatever ward rotations is weak. And it's not a knock at us DO students personally, we shouldn't take it that way. It's just the faulty system.

I think an easy positive step for DO education would be require all DO schools to have stricter clinical requirements and affiliations with teaching hospitals. And no new DO school should be able to get accreditation without a strong affiliation with a teaching hospital. I don't care about doctor shortages in rural alabama or missu or wherever. Each school should have a teaching hospital or two or three, that can accomodate all their students and their rotations

Yeah the only people who do their entire 4th year at wards based rotations are the people in audition heavy fields or the rare person with subpar scores who are auditioning like crazy to kiss butt and get interviews.

Heck in 4th year MD students also do the absolute easiest rotations they can get away with to meet graduation requirements.

There’s not a lot of people willing to go deeper in debt and move just to work harder. Especially after apps go out.

 

[SLC]

you cant literally "learn how to act" like a resident in one rotation... also many residents suck at teaching.

To be honest, many residents also suck at being residents.

 

[Mass Effect]

Ohh no I get it, I am saying that people from new DO schools who had subpar clinical education were still able to match though, it will all depend on the individual at the end and how much effort they put in to the get best education they can get..

But that's exactly the point. The people with subpar clinical education schedules should put in the "effort" and fight to be on resident teams because it IS about the individual overcoming the crappy clinical education standards of DO schools. A person rotating in all preceptor-based rotations and learning next to nothing is likely not going to be matching in a top program and is not going to suddenly be a superstar intern if they do.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I think some of you are taking this way too personally. It's not necessarily an anti-DO comment, just a comment against the current system, which I think everyone can admit has flaws. My school, which is considered one of the "top" DO schools, has huuuuge variability in its clinical rotations. We have some M3 sites that are 100% wards-based and others that are 100% preceptor-based, others in the middle. And even that is variable, because at the 100% preceptor-based sites, many of the rotations end up actually being wards-based (there's a doc listed as your official "preceptor", but you really work with the resident team). Sure, in a perfect world everyone would look for every opportunity to find wards rotations, but the reality is that not everyone does. SDN is biased with the crowd willing to go the extra mile a lot of the times, but most students just want to make it through as unscathed as possible.

It's not a personal attack. It's an attack against our schools. My school made it even harder this year for students at a preceptor-based site to get exposure to wards. We get multiple electives in M3, and they used to have it set up where you could apply for your electives at a particular institution-- there are several large academic centers nearby, so this would guarantee you good wards-based electives M3. Now, they just have you rank your electives by specialty, so if you rank cardiology first you may get the wards-based one, or you may get one with some 70 y/o doc in his outpatient office. Furthermore, like I mentioned, I requested to have a wards-based IM rotation for my core IM month because I know I want to do IM, and I was essentially told "no, we don't take requests it's not fair blah blah". Ok great, but the outcome of that is that I know people who got that rotation who have absolutely zero interest in IM, so who exactly is that system benefitting? Our schools need to be held accountable, it is far too often the case with DO schools where it feels like the schools are actively working against the success of their students.

 

[musman9853]

But that's exactly the point. The people with subpar clinical education schedules should put in the "effort" and fight to be on resident teams because it IS about the individual overcoming the crappy clinical education standards of DO schools. A person rotating in all preceptor-based rotations and learning next to nothing is likely not going to be matching in a top program and is not going to suddenly be a superstar intern if they do.

but not all people want to go to rockstar top tier academic residencies. not everyone wants to be a superstar intern who ends up being chief resident. if you do, more power to you! but that shouldnt necessarily be the default approach imo

 

[MLNS]

but not all people want to go to rockstar top tier academic residencies. not everyone wants to be a superstar intern who ends up being chief resident. if you do, more power to you! but that shouldnt necessarily be the default approach imo

Being chief has literally 0 to do with clinical acumen and 100 to do with being a suck-up. It’s an academic waste of a year not a clinical flourishing use of a year to those who rock.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I think some of you are taking this way too personally. It's not necessarily an anti-DO comment, just a comment against the current system, which I think everyone can admit has flaws. My school, which is considered one of the "top" DO schools, has huuuuge variability in its clinical rotations. We have some M3 sites that are 100% wards-based and others that are 100% preceptor-based, others in the middle. And even that is variable, because at the 100% preceptor-based sites, many of the rotations end up actually being wards-based (there's a doc listed as your official "preceptor", but you really work with the resident team). Sure, in a perfect world everyone would look for every opportunity to find wards rotations, but the reality is that not everyone does. SDN is biased with the crowd willing to go the extra mile a lot of the times, but most students just want to make it through as unscathed as possible.

It's not a personal attack. It's an attack against our schools. My school made it even harder this year for students at a preceptor-based site to get exposure to wards. We get multiple electives in M3, and they used to have it set up where you could apply for your electives at a particular institution-- there are several large academic centers nearby, so this would guarantee you good wards-based electives M3. Now, they just have you rank your electives by specialty, so if you rank cardiology first you may get the wards-based one, or you may get one with some 70 y/o doc in his outpatient office. Furthermore, like I mentioned, I requested to have a wards-based IM rotation for my core IM month because I know I want to do IM, and I was essentially told "no, we don't take requests it's not fair blah blah". Ok great, but the outcome of that is that I know people who got that rotation who have absolutely zero interest in IM, so who exactly is that system benefitting? Our schools need to be held accountable, it is far too often the case with DO schools where it feels like the schools are actively working against the success of their students.

Honestly, the idea that you could graduate medical school without wards-based IM or GS in your MS3 year is pretty embarrassing.

Like, come on. That's some midlevel ****.

Preceptor based psych or peds or even obgyn, sure. But medicine? What?

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Honestly, the idea that you could graduate medical school without wards-based IM or GS in your MS3 year is pretty embarrassing.

Like, come on. That's some midlevel ****.

Preceptor based psych or peds or even obgyn, sure. But medicine? What?

Yup. I had wards-based GS and am lucky that a lot of my "preceptor" based rotations have actually ended up being with resident teams. I'm on an IM subspecialty now with a resident team. But it's just infuriating how our schools actively work against us, at the very least they should be able to prioritize giving us wards-based rotations in our field of interest if the rotation is available. It's honestly just pure laziness, they'd rather hit whatever button randomly generates our schedules than try and work with us.

 

[lernaeann]

I think theres already a requirement that at least 1 rotation has to be wards based with residents, most people at my school have several such rotations, and many have all wards based with residents. Stuff like FM will be preceptor based everywhere....

It is a COCA accreditation requirement to have at least one rotation in 3rd year with residents. That added to the few away/audition rotations early 4th year, there is your 3+ ward base rotations right there.

I can tell you both that this isn't the case at my school, or at many others.

 

[Mass Effect]

but not all people want to go to rockstar top tier academic residencies. not everyone wants to be a superstar intern who ends up being chief resident. if you do, more power to you! but that shouldnt necessarily be the default approach imo

Ever heard the saying "shoot for the moon and even if you fail, you'll land among the stars"? I'm not saying you should be applying to Yale plastics, but even if you want to do FM, in this day and age and being a DO, you should probably apply pretty broadly and do whatever you can to guarantee a match. Going into this with the state of mind of "I don't want to go to a rockstar top tier academic residency so this doesn't affect me" is what usually ends poorly.

Being chief has literally 0 to do with clinical acumen and 100 to do with being a suck-up. It’s an academic waste of a year not a clinical flourishing use of a year to those who rock.

Depends on specialty and place. Most specialties don't require an extra year (in fact I think only IM does?). Rather you're chief during your last year of residency. Agree that it isn't necessarily the most rockstar resident (or sucking up). It's about who's best for whatever the job entails and that varies widely by institution and specialty.

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

I am honestly afraid at the moment given the experience I have had on my last 4 rotations. They are all preceptor based, and my duties have honestly been minimal. The most rigorous one so far was my rural primary care rotation In FM, which was only outpatient and I saw about 5-7 patients per day Monday - Thursday.

My IM rotations combined were 2/3 outpatient, and what inpatient work I did included “carrying” 2-3 patients. That includes basically pre-charting, pre-rounding, present to preceptor who rarely gave feedback be it good or bad, actual rounding, and then progress note. Did no procedures. Barely did anything of substance beyond disturbing my patients in the AM with my questions.

I was so disappointed with those rotations...my school has no wards based rotation set up for me this year. I have a community hospital rotation that I am trying to get changed from community gen surg which will be my 3rd surg rotation despite the fact I have 0 interest in going into surgery. My clinical department has been difficult to work with to say the least. So at this point, my wards rotations will probably have to be in 4th year when I am trying to impress PD’s.

I know this sounds like a vent, but I just wanted to add to this discussion with my n=1. I am starting to feel woefully unprepared. The lack of structured learning within the clinical experiences, constructive criticism, rigorous discussion regarding management, procedural skill development, and the lack of interaction with residents or interns I feel is significantly stunting my growth.

 

[musman9853]

Ever heard the saying "shoot for the moon and even if you fail, you'll land among the stars"? I'm not saying you should be applying to Yale plastics, but even if you want to do FM, in this day and age and being a DO, you should probably apply pretty broadly and do whatever you can to guarantee a match. Going into this with the state of mind of "I don't want to go to a rockstar top tier academic residency so this doesn't affect me" is what usually ends poorly.



Depends on specialty and place. Most specialties don't require an extra year (in fact I think only IM does?). Rather you're chief during your last year of residency. Agree that it isn't necessarily the most rockstar resident (or sucking up). It's about who's best for whatever the job entails and that varies widely by institution and specialty.

I totally understand that, but you also dont need to have a 250 step and 10 pubs to go to something like peds or psych

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I am honestly afraid at the moment given the experience I have had on my last 4 rotations. They are all preceptor based, and my duties have honestly been minimal. The most rigorous one so far was my rural primary care rotation In FM, which was only outpatient and I saw about 5-7 patients per day Monday - Thursday.

My IM rotations combined were 2/3 outpatient, and what inpatient work I did included “carrying” 2-3 patients. That includes basically pre-charting, pre-rounding, present to preceptor who rarely gave feedback be it good or bad, actual rounding, and then progress note. Did no procedures. Barely did anything of substance beyond disturbing my patients in the AM with my questions.

I was so disappointed with those rotations...my school has no wards based rotation set up for me this year. I have a community hospital rotation that I am trying to get changed from community gen surg which will be my 3rd surg rotation despite the fact I have 0 interest in going into surgery. My clinical department has been difficult to work with to say the least. So at this point, my wards rotations will probably have to be in 4th year when I am trying to impress PD’s.

I know this sounds like a vent, but I just wanted to add to this discussion with my n=1. I am starting to feel woefully unprepared. The lack of structured learning within the clinical experiences, constructive criticism, rigorous discussion regarding management, procedural skill development, and the lack of interaction with residents or interns I feel is significantly stunting my growth.

If that makes you feel better, all my rotations are also preceptor based for this year except for one and that's IM, and I've also had very little feedback and very minimal responsibilities so far as well.

 

[Espressso]

I am honestly afraid at the moment given the experience I have had on my last 4 rotations. They are all preceptor based, and my duties have honestly been minimal. The most rigorous one so far was my rural primary care rotation In FM, which was only outpatient and I saw about 5-7 patients per day Monday - Thursday.

My IM rotations combined were 2/3 outpatient, and what inpatient work I did included “carrying” 2-3 patients. That includes basically pre-charting, pre-rounding, present to preceptor who rarely gave feedback be it good or bad, actual rounding, and then progress note. Did no procedures. Barely did anything of substance beyond disturbing my patients in the AM with my questions.

I was so disappointed with those rotations...my school has no wards based rotation set up for me this year. I have a community hospital rotation that I am trying to get changed from community gen surg which will be my 3rd surg rotation despite the fact I have 0 interest in going into surgery. My clinical department has been difficult to work with to say the least. So at this point, my wards rotations will probably have to be in 4th year when I am trying to impress PD’s.

I know this sounds like a vent, but I just wanted to add to this discussion with my n=1. I am starting to feel woefully unprepared. The lack of structured learning within the clinical experiences, constructive criticism, rigorous discussion regarding management, procedural skill development, and the lack of interaction with residents or interns I feel is significantly stunting my growth.

This is kind of my point from earlier, the variability between one's clinical exposure is less than ideal. My experience wasn't like this above, but the fact that it's this variable a flaw in the system. DO students should want the system to change too.

 

[Neopolymath]

This is kind of my point from earlier, the variability between one's clinical exposure is less than ideal. My experience wasn't like this above, but the fact that it's this variable a flaw in the system. DO students should want the system to change too.

It's hard to even convince your classmates of the importance of focusing strongly on inpatient experience much less actual academic ward based experience. Most people I know don't even give a **** that most of their rotations are outpatient even if some are with residents. That's terrible in my opinion. Medical education needs to work from inpatient and go to outpatient later after competency. Our own DO students don't even realize the pointlessness of "doing things" on preceptor rotations and they fall for that excuse from the school hook line and sinker. The only reason the schools promote this is that it covers up for them having no infrastructure or investment in it. They can just lie and say preceptors work and it will make you an FM doc. Anything to cover up that DO schools are parasites that just expect other schools and residencies to take care of their students.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I totally understand that, but you also dont need to have a 250 step and 10 pubs to go to something like peds or psych

Of course not, but you should be trying to learn as much as you possibly can because quite literally lives will depend on it for the next 40 years of your career.

I know that sounds hyperbolic, but there's truth in it.

 

[Mass Effect]

I totally understand that, but you also dont need to have a 250 step and 10 pubs to go to something like peds or psych

How getting a 250 and 10 pubs comparable to saying you should work on a resident team at an academic center? The former is way above average. The latter is expected. Let me say that again -- it's expected. It's the bare minimum. A more sound comparison would be a 215 and 1 pub. When I work with an intern, I literally expect that they have learned from working on resident teams. The above mindset is why we see so many panicked posters on match week failing to match even to peds or psych.

 

[Chibucks15]

How getting a 250 and 10 pubs comparable to saying you should work on a resident team at an academic center? The former is way above average. The latter is expected. Let me say that again -- it's expected. It's the bare minimum. A more sound comparison would be a 215 and 1 pub. When I work with an intern, I literally expect that they have learned from working on resident teams. The above mindset is why we see so many panicked posters on match week failing to match even to peds or psych.

Again, while I agree with your premise, have you seen THAT many interns that just cannot function in a resident team? Like it isn’t rocket science to fit into one...I have yet to encounter anybody that has that issue, except for brand new M3s that are just terrified of everything and speaking and such.

if it’s as common as you make it out to be I have vastly underestimated how socially inept our profession is haha

 

[Mass Effect]

Of course not, but you should be trying to learn as much as you possibly can because quite literally lives will depend on it for the next 40 years of your career.

I know that sounds hyperbolic, but there's truth in it.

This exactly. I'm stunned by the number of people who are making excuses for subpar education. Us saying this is a failing of DO schools is nothing against the students. It's against the schools. Instead of focusing on improving education and clinical rotations for their students, the DO world is consumed with adding more and more schools to the universe, quality be damned. What they don't get is the focus on the influx of schools instead of improving clinical education at the existing ones is what's going to hurt DOs more than anything else.

 

[Mass Effect]

Again, while I agree with your premise, have you seen THAT many interns that just cannot function in a resident team? Like it isn’t rocket science to fit into one...I have yet to encounter anybody that has that issue, except for brand new M3s that are just terrified of everything and speaking and such.

if it’s as common as you make it out to be I have vastly underestimated how socially inept our profession is haha

You're missing the point. We're not saying "if you don't end up on resident teams as an MS3, you'll flunk out of residency." We're saying that if you want a shot at being the best intern you can be, you should be on resident teams. I have seen plenty of interns that are bad. They need a lot of hand-holding, a lot of supervision, a lot of confidence boosting, and a lot of teaching. Many of these people get through because to even get that far, they have certain skills that help them succeed. They're smart, they have a strong work ethic, and they will bust their ass to succeed. But I've seen plenty that made me nervous. You will too. You're just too early in training to recognize it. Check out the general residency forum if you want to see what happens to the ones who don't have those skills to pull them through -- they're either on endless remediation plans or they get terminated for incompetence.

 

[Chibucks15]

You're missing the point. We're not saying "if you don't end up on resident teams as an MS3, you'll flunk out of residency." We're saying that if you want a shot at being the best intern you can be, you should be on resident teams. I have seen plenty of interns that are bad. They need a lot of hand-holding, a lot of supervision, a lot of confidence boosting, and a lot of teaching. Many of these people get through because to even get that far, they have certain skills that help them succeed. They're smart, they have a strong work ethic, and they will bust their ass to succeed. But I've seen plenty that made me nervous. You will too. You're just too early in training to recognize it. Check out the general residency forum if you want to see what happens to the ones who don't have those skills to pull them through -- they're either on endless remediation plans or they get terminated for incompetence.

?? The beginning of your answer and the end directly contradict themselves. But I've also seen interns who are from 'better' MD schools who need hand holding and everything where I felt more confident than they seem to even when I was an M4 with like 1 less patient. While there is a portion of it related to type of rotation it isn't as black and white as you are portraying it (in my experiences), it depends on the person themselves.

In regards to your previous post about DO expansion, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. Or at least when you speak to this nobody is. All anyone has literally ever said is that having some preceptor based rotations is not the end of the world, and some can be beneficial. My best LOR came from preceptor ones because they actually get to know you and aren't on service for 1 week. And even moreseo I only really see attendings when its rounding time, then they have plenty else to do.

It is not feasible for every medical school to have ward based rotations in every specialty. In the Midwest for example there just isn't a large enough concentration of residencies in diverse enough fields to support this. Nobody is agreeing with the nonsense explosion of DO (and a few MD) schools with the residency bottleneck as it is.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Again, while I agree with your premise, have you seen THAT many interns that just cannot function in a resident team? Like it isn’t rocket science to fit into one...I have yet to encounter anybody that has that issue, except for brand new M3s that are just terrified of everything and speaking and such.

if it’s as common as you make it out to be I have vastly underestimated how socially inept our profession is haha

Literally all the time.

Being able to function on an inpatient team has almost nothing to do with "fitting in" and everything to do with understanding your role and efficiently and competently executing tasks associated with that role. The number of interns I've seen over the years who for months would spend hours after signout cleaning things up because they had no idea how to function was staggering.

If you've never had to pre-round on an inpatient service before, how are you supposed to suddenly as a PGY-1 preround on 10 patients, talk to nurses, review labs, write notes and place orders?

Residency is literally a job. If you have only limited exposure to that job prior to starting, you are probably going to have a steep learning curve and many weeks/months of fxking up before you're finally half decent at it.

Literally every single *actual* doctor in this thread disagrees with you, this **** matters a lot more than you think it does.

 

[Chibucks15]

Literally all the time.

Being able to function on an inpatient team has almost nothing to do with "fitting in" and everything to do with understanding your role and efficiently and competently executing tasks associated with that role. The number of interns I've seen over the years who for months would spend hours after signout cleaning things up because they had no idea how to function was staggering.

If you've never had to pre-round on an inpatient service before, how are you supposed to suddenly as a PGY-1 preround on 10 patients, talk to nurses, review labs, write notes and place orders?

Residency is literally a job. If you have only limited exposure to that job prior to starting, you are probably going to have a steep learning curve and many weeks/months of fxking up before you're finally half decent at it.

From my experience though as an M4, there would be times I would be given a larger number of patients but even then the interns would do more and most of my job consisted of chasing down lab values and making phone calls. To be completely honest, while yes having a decent amount of patients helps you get efficient in notes and such, most of the nonsense busy work M4s do really doesn't prepare you for anything other than being a secretary haha I see your point though.

Every resident I've talked to has mentioned specifically that "nothing you really do will fully prepare you for residency" when asked about what to do during COVID site closures and limiting students, etc. So I've taken that to heart since its been mentioned at every place I've interviewed at. There's gonna be a learning curve regardless, with some people bigger than others for a variety of reasons. I've rotated with all types of med students and there isn't some hard and fast rule that DOs or IMGs are 'inferior' when you get into the rotations. There's been people who suck from all training paths. So making hard and fast generalized statements on here really doesn't help people who just come by to read comments. Just put your head down and work hard is all you can really do. Again, so nobody comes after me needlessly, nobody is saying DO schools don't need to up their education game, but just because its somewhat more prevalent in DO world doesn't mean the same crap doesn't happen all over.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

From my experience though as an M4, there would be times I would be given a larger number of patients but even then the interns would do more and most of my job consisted of chasing down lab values and making phone calls. To be completely honest, while yes having a decent amount of patients helps you get efficient in notes and such, most of the nonsense busy work M4s do really doesn't prepare you for anything other than being a secretary haha I see your point though.

Every resident I've talked to has mentioned specifically that "nothing you really do will fully prepare you for residency" when asked about what to do during COVID site closures and limiting students, etc. So I've taken that to heart since its been mentioned at every place I've interviewed at. There's gonna be a learning curve regardless, with some people bigger than others for a variety of reasons. I've rotated with all types of med students and there isn't some hard and fast rule that DOs or IMGs are 'inferior' when you get into the rotations. There's been people who suck from all training paths. So making hard and fast generalized statements on here really doesn't help people who just come by to read comments. Just put your head down and work hard is all you can really do. Again, so nobody comes after me needlessly, nobody is saying DO schools don't need to up their education game, but just because its somewhat more prevalent in DO world doesn't mean the same crap doesn't happen all over.

Tell me something - when you're not around, who do you think does all that busy work of chasing down lab values and making phone calls? The intern, and that's in addition to the prerounding, and the med recs, and getting imaging protocolled, and writing notes, and writing discharge summaries, and taking new admits, and doing procedures, etc.

It's true that nothing truly prepares you for residency. That being said, there's a huge difference between being able to hit the ground running vs running into walls over and over because you don't know your head from your @ss.

Again, literally every actual doctor in this thread disagrees with the notion that having a large number of preceptor based rotations your M3 year is inconsequential. It's not. This **** matters alot.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Tell me something - when you're not around, who do you think does all that busy work of chasing down lab values and making phone calls? The intern, and that's in addition to the prerounding, and the med recs, and getting imaging protocolled, and writing notes, and writing discharge summaries, and taking new admits, and doing procedures, etc.

It's true that nothing truly prepares you for residency. That being said, there's a huge difference between being able to hit the ground running vs running into walls over and over because you don't know your head from your @ss.

Again, literally every actual doctor in this thread disagrees with the notion that having a large number of preceptor based rotations your M3 year is inconsequential. It's not. This **** matters alot.

I get the concern about this as DOs apparently have a much harder time getting experience in this area (I graduated MD school in 2010 and in all of 3rd year only 6 weeks were spent without residents). The goal should be to get as many team-based rotations as possible. You won't get 100% of that, and that's OK, but that should be the goal you shoot for.

I precept DO students now (literally just sent her off to see a patient so I have time to finish this post). I think I'm a good teacher - we talk about each patient she sees, I assign readings that we then go over. BUT, if the day gets really busy or have a meeting or really anything that derails the day, the quality of my teaching absolutely suffers. Resident teams are designed around the need for teaching to take place. That's one of the expectations every day. So all other things being equal, teaching on resident teams should be better. Its the usual slightly overlapping bell curves chart we all know by now. I'm sure there are some resident teams that I teach better than, but most should be design be better than what I can manage.

 

[Chibucks15]

Tell me something - when you're not around, who do you think does all that busy work of chasing down lab values and making phone calls? The intern, and that's in addition to the prerounding, and the med recs, and getting imaging protocolled, and writing notes, and writing discharge summaries, and taking new admits, and doing procedures, etc.

It's true that nothing truly prepares you for residency. That being said, there's a huge difference between being able to hit the ground running vs running into walls over and over because you don't know your head from your @ss.

Again, literally every actual doctor in this thread disagrees with the notion that having a large number of preceptor based rotations your M3 year is inconsequential. It's not. This **** matters alot.

For literally the 10th time, I am not saying that. Idk how much more explicitly I can put this. I've mentioned it directly in every post I've had. I'm saying that there will not be some apocalyptic failure if you do some preceptor based rotations at some point during your clinical training. It simply is not feasible to have every med student in the country do entirely ward based rotations for every specialty. People end up just fine (mostly), but there are people that are going to fail regardless.

Obviously there is some massive communication failure because half the stuff you mentioned the intern doing an M4 legally cannot do (in the hospitals I have rotated at). So as super life changing as it is to observe an intern doing a med rec or writing orders, or 'learning' how to make a phone call, most of intern duties you have to learn on the fly. So idk what you want people to really do when they literally will have no choice in the matter for the most part, especially when students are getting kicked out of hospitals left and right due to PPE shortages. This is a waste of my time, sorry that my direct experiences are apparently super terrible and I'm going to fail as a doctor because I did some preceptor rotations and enjoyed them.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I get the concern about this as DOs apparently have a much harder time getting experience in this area (I graduated MD school in 2010 and in all of 3rd year only 6 weeks were spent without residents). The goal should be to get as many team-based rotations as possible. You won't get 100% of that, and that's OK, but that should be the goal you shoot for.

I precept DO students now (literally just sent her off to see a patient so I have time to finish this post). I think I'm a good teacher - we talk about each patient she sees, I assign readings that we then go over. BUT, if the day gets really busy or have a meeting or really anything that derails the day, the quality of my teaching absolutely suffers. Resident teams are designed around the need for teaching to take place. That's one of the expectations every day. So all other things being equal, teaching on resident teams should be better. Its the usual slightly overlapping bell curves chart we all know by now. I'm sure there are some resident teams that I teach better than, but most should be design be better than what I can manage.

Basically this.

My institution has an affilate community hospital where many DO and caribbean med students rotate. They get more 1:1 time with attendings but the attendings who are paid based on RVUs will let teaching fall to the wayside in the name of efficiency. Sure, the students there will have the opportunity to do more stuff like procedures, but literally every day from 4pm to 8pm when volumes are at peak, their education suffers. Hell, I moonlight there and I know I'm a worse teacher there than when I'm doing shifts at our academic site.

On the contrary, our main academic site is connected to an MD school and a residency. They get daily didactics and get to attend our weekly conference. They get to actually see what our day to day is and by design have structured time to go over plans, talk about differentials and clinical decision making. They get to network w residents and learn about other programs we've interviewed at or rotated at or know people at. Sure, they're not doing chest tubes and central lines but they'll be ready for that as residents and are a lot less likely to **** the bed on July 1st.

 

[Mass Effect]

?? The beginning of your answer and the end directly contradict themselves. But I've also seen interns who are from 'better' MD schools who need hand holding and everything where I felt more confident than they seem to even when I was an M4 with like 1 less patient. While there is a portion of it related to type of rotation it isn't as black and white as you are portraying it (in my experiences), it depends on the person themselves.

In regards to your previous post about DO expansion, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. Or at least when you speak to this nobody is. All anyone has literally ever said is that having some preceptor based rotations is not the end of the world, and some can be beneficial. My best LOR came from preceptor ones because they actually get to know you and aren't on service for 1 week. And even moreseo I only really see attendings when its rounding time, then they have plenty else to do.

It is not feasible for every medical school to have ward based rotations in every specialty. In the Midwest for example there just isn't a large enough concentration of residencies in diverse enough fields to support this. Nobody is agreeing with the nonsense explosion of DO (and a few MD) schools with the residency bottleneck as it is.

For literally the 10th time, I am not saying that. Idk how much more explicitly I can put this. I've mentioned it directly in every post I've had. I'm saying that there will not be some apocalyptic failure if you do some preceptor based rotations at some point during your clinical training. It simply is not feasible to have every med student in the country do entirely ward based rotations for every specialty. People end up just fine (mostly), but there are people that are going to fail regardless.

Obviously there is some massive communication failure because half the stuff you mentioned the intern doing an M4 legally cannot do (in the hospitals I have rotated at). So as super life changing as it is to observe an intern doing a med rec or writing orders, or 'learning' how to make a phone call, most of intern duties you have to learn on the fly. So idk what you want people to really do when they literally will have no choice in the matter for the most part, especially when students are getting kicked out of hospitals left and right due to PPE shortages. This is a waste of my time, sorry that my direct experiences are apparently super terrible and I'm going to fail as a doctor because I did some preceptor rotations and enjoyed them.

Has it occurred to you that we've read and understood every word you've written, including the bolded type, and that our responses are not due to miscommunication but rather due to your downplaying something we think is much more important?

 

[hallowmann]

I get the apprehension about focusing on this issue. It's a clear weakness at a number of schools, and it's often something that students have limited control over. It's also true, as @Mass Effect said, that most students will do OK in residency because even with a steeper learning curve in the first 3 months, they have the skills to bridge that gap.

What most of us on here are emphasizing is that it's in your best interest for your education to rotate on teams as much as possible. If you have any say, you should aim to be rotating at hospitals with residency programs and resident teams in ideally as many fields as you can, and at very least IM. It need not be every rotation, but there are literally students who's only experience with residents was one rotation in outpatient FM.

There's also another inherent benefit to being in places with residencies that no one really talks about. You learn a lot about the programs there, you learn about the application process, and you learn more about what you need to know on your interviews. As a student rotating, you get a unique view from the inside of that residency program, and you can see some of the strengths and weaknesses, which helps a lot with the process.

In addition, if you are a weaker student or borderline for your specialty, you can get some good face time with the program and have a solid backup if you are well liked. I was super paranoid as a student, and so one thing I explicitly did was go to a clinical site with multiple residencies, so that if I wanted to, I could have that as my backup. I also went out of my way to rotate at a big academic site for inpatient IM just to make sure I had that experience early in 3rd year. It was rough, busy and made me hate inpatient, but I sure as hell learned a lot.

Another nice thing about being at a site with residencies is the level of didactics. My site wasn't the best by any means, but for a half day a week there were didactics for everyone. I learned a lot there about actual clinical work. In addition, we had more opportunities for board review and Level 2 PE practice than any of my friends at hospitals with just preceptors. The place is made for teaching, so even on the bad teaching teams, you still usually learn something. Come to think of it, there's a lot of hidden benefits to being at a place with plenty of residents, which is partly why some of us are recommending it. You don't know what you miss out on.

Again, can you overcome this if you have no choice, sure. Do you need all your rotations to be resident team based, no. But you should strive to do as many as you can.

 

[openstage]

Probably two dumb questions but I'll ask:
1) How do you specifically request a resident based rotation vs a preceptor based? Does that usually require an away rotation not connected to your medical school affiliated hospitals?
2) Does your medical school find such requests to be insulting / ungrateful? Maybe this second question is impossible to answer.

 

[DO2015CA]

Probably two dumb questions but I'll ask:
1) How do you specifically request a resident based rotation vs a preceptor based? Does that usually require an away rotation not connected to your medical school affiliated hospitals?
2) Does your medical school find such requests to be insulting / ungrateful? Maybe this second question is impossible to answer.

No matter how respectful you are they see you as ungrateful so stop caring what they think and advocate for yourself

 

[openstage]

No matter how respectful you are they see you as ungrateful so stop caring what they think and advocate for yourself

Perhaps - but these aren't these some of the people you may network with, attend conferences with, look to join their research projects, need letters from etc...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Perhaps - but these aren't these some of the people you may network with, attend conferences with, look to join their research projects, need letters from etc...

No.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Probably two dumb questions but I'll ask:
1) How do you specifically request a resident based rotation vs a preceptor based? Does that usually require an away rotation not connected to your medical school affiliated hospitals?
2) Does your medical school find such requests to be insulting / ungrateful? Maybe this second question is impossible to answer.

1) You just ask your clinical coordinator or whoever's in charge of your schedule at your school. Then, you probably get told "no" 9/10 times
2) Who cares