Best degree for school psychology/working with children

[rbw]

Hi -

I am considering graduate options for school psychology and am mainly interested in working with children who have mental health issues. I am less interested in research and teaching. I have done some research into various types of degrees and am pretty confused, as it seems that a few different types of degrees could get me to where I want to be. So far, the main categories and advantages/disadvantages I'm spotting and am considering are: NASP-approved specialist/master's for school psychology (this is described as "entry level" into school psychology but on the NASP website), PsyDs (this is appealing because it's a PhD but less research/academia focused), traditional PhD (would yield the broadest job opportunities but obviously more time/money), and MSW (seems the less competitive to get into and there seems to be a very wide range of what I could do with this degree, some of it being close to what I want and some of it sounding like not great work).

Can anyone shed more light on these options? Am I missing any others? If I'm not interested in research, would a PhD be a waste of time and money?

My background is also a factor - I took one or two psychology courses in college but majored in history. I have academic research experience in history and graduated with a 3.5+ gpa from an ivy league. I've been working in business research for the last 3 years. I know that I will have to take courses to supplement my lack of experience and basic knowledge (any advice on that too??) and am prepared to make the necessary steps to myself a more attractive candidate for any of these programs, including post-bacc programs/classes at community college, volunteering in counselor roles, etc.

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

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[wesleysmith]

Do you have a certain population of children you want to work with? What kind of work do you wish to do with them? I'm no PhD, but to answer one of your questions; yes, if you are not interested in doing research, a PhD would be a waste of time (well, not a waste, but if you don't want to do research probably a bad idea). Depending on your answers to my questions, and taking your lack of interest in research and academia into consideration, I would definitely look into a good clinical MSW program. You might be interested in a MSW with a Child and Family or Mental Health concentration at a program (or field placement) that lets you work with your target population. Once again, it depends, in the title you mention school psychology; if you wish to work in a school setting, this too can be accomplished with an MSW, but, it may be a better idea to look into a masters in school psychology (someone else will have to shed more light on this topic).

 

[WisNeuro]

if you are not interested in doing research, a PhD would be a waste of time (well, not a waste, but if you don't want to do research probably a bad idea).

My god, this misconception just will not die. I have plenty of friends who completed school psych PhD's. And, just like clinical PhD's, it varies and is usually a good blend of research and clinical work, with the majority going on to do more clinical work. If you plan on doing assessments in that school psych setting, you will need a good understanding of statistics and research or you will just be writing up reports and using instruments with no real idea of what they mean.

 

[wesleysmith]

My god, this misconception just will not die. I have plenty of friends who completed school psych PhD's. And, just like clinical PhD's, it varies and is usually a good blend of research and clinical work, with the majority going on to do more clinical work. If you plan on doing assessments in that school psych setting, you will need a good understanding of statistics and research or you will just be writing up reports and using instruments with no real idea of what they mean.

I should have added after that statement that I did not arrive at that conclusion from personal experience but rather from all of the collective comments on this forum. I see it said time and time again - if you are not interested in doing research than you probably don't want to go the PhD route. Sorry for perpetuating the cycle.

 

[WisNeuro]

I just hate to see people resign themselves to 150k+ in debt when they could go to a fully funded program over a misconception about what the degree entails.

 

[CheetahGirl]

I would look into combined school/clinical psych programs. I feel they prepare you best for whatever your plans are working with children. As WisNeuro mentioned, your training (either PsyD or PhD in combined school/clinical psych) will have a good blend of research and clinical work. If the program does not have a good blend, you will NOT want that program b/c IMO it is deficient in preparing and training you to be an effective psychologist.

The other huge misconception is that the PsyD is the 'non-research' degree. It is not...you will/should be exposed to tons of research; although some programs break it up per their programs requirements, i.e., I know of one PsyD that has the Master's project be a literature review for the dissertation, but other PsyDs/PhDs require an independent separate project at the Master's level and the dissertation can sometime be an extension of that same project. I trained alongside PsyDs and PhDs (some of whom were combined school/clinical psych) and we discussed the pros and cons of our degrees ad nauseaum.

If you want to be any type of psychologist, don't fear the research. It is supports our field (as you'll see where the arguments for or against many interventions are based on evidence-based practices...and if there is no research support, then one questions why that method?!). The math is not too terribly difficult, except when you are taking certain stats courses, but it's all logic. And basically, computer programs run all your stats, you may only learn the fundamentals & equations behind the numbers-crunching (like to calculate effect size), but unless you want to go into research...there isn't too much you need to commit to memory on a daily basis. If there are other aspects of research (besides math/stats) that you may shy away from, all you need is a really good stats professor (or good stats tutor if your program does not have one) to get you through the degree.

Good luck! Working with children is extremely rewarding and enjoyable.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I should have added after that statement that I did not arrive at that conclusion from personal experience but rather from all of the collective comments on this forum. I see it said time and time again - if you are not interested in doing research than you probably don't want to go the PhD route. Sorry for perpetuating the cycle.

I think the message you might be describing is that many folks here suggest that if all an individual wants to do is psychotherapy, then a doctorate isn't the most efficient means of reaching that goal. Relatedly, if folks aren't interested in learning how to conduct, apply, and critically digest research and other aspects of scholarly inquiry, then again, doctoral-level study (whether it be a PhD or PsyD) isn't the way to go. And finally, many folks here feel/have said that any doctoral program (whether it be PhD or PsyD) should provide adequate training in, and exposure to the aforementioned research/scholar inquiry (and I see that CheetahGirl addressed all these points as well).

I think you've hit the major options I can think of (and CheetahGirl mentioned the combined school/clinical idea). Just one quick clarification--in general a Ph.D. program won't cost you more than a Psy.D. program, as the former typically come with tuition remission and/or a stipend. Ph.D. programs do tend to last 1-2 years longer on average, though.

 

[WisNeuro]

. Ph.D. programs do tend to last 1-2 years longer on average, though.

I will gladly take 1-2 extra years of schooling in place of a couple hundred thousand dollars of debt that would take me forever to pay off

 

[cab1234]

I will gladly take 1-2 extra years of schooling in place of a couple hundred thousand dollars of debt that would take me forever to pay off

If you need me I'll be tithing 15% of my income to the Dept of Education for the next 10 years (and I'm lucky it's only 10).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think the message you might be describing is that many folks here suggest that if all an individual wants to do is psychotherapy, then a doctorate isn't the most efficient means of reaching that goal. Relatedly, if folks aren't interested in learning how to conduct, apply, and critically digest research and other aspects of scholarly inquiry, then again, doctoral-level study (whether it be a PhD or PsyD) isn't the way to go. And finally, many folks here feel/have said that any doctoral program (whether it be PhD or PsyD) should provide adequate training in, and exposure to the aforementioned research/scholar inquiry (and I see that CheetahGirl addressed all these points as well).

Great summary.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I will gladly take 1-2 extra years of schooling in place of a couple hundred thousand dollars of debt that would take me forever to pay off

You jest about this…but there are plenty of people in that exact position. I tried to minimize what loans I took, but I'm still stuck with repayment for the next 10-15 years (albeit at a low consolidated interest rate).

I did the math a few months back for some of the pricier programs and I got numbers $250k+ after accounting for compound interest earned during deferment. That is a *HUGE* chunk of change for a median income <$100k.

 

[WisNeuro]

You jest about this…but there are plenty of people in that exact position. I tried to minimize what loans I took, but I'm still stuck with repayment for the next 10-15 years (albeit at a low consolidated interest rate).

Oh, I know I'm in the minority. I fortunately had over half of my undergrad paid for by scholarship. Having worked since 12 I paid off the rest with minimal help from parents. Worked 70 hours a week between two jobs in my year between undergrad and grad. Fully funded grad program, and working on several research projects as an independent evaluator and psychometrist helped out financially in grad school to avoid taking out loans. No debt for me. It's not easy, but it's possible.

I did live in a low cost of living city and don't have children to worry about, so that helps too.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I also want to chime in that the understanding of research and how to interpret it and apply it is why the research experience is so valuable. That is one reason that a psychologist is considered an expert in the field. If you want to be the best school psychologist, then become a real psychologist and attend a rigorous doctoral program. I did not pay $250k for my degree and I attained a PsyD and in my opinion it was clearly worth it. If I had attended a fully-funded program then i would have less debt but that's water under the bridge.

One more reason to become a psychologist is that you might want to work in other areas ten to 20 years from now. Here is an anecdote for you. I knew a psychologist who worked as a school psychologist in a couple of states for the first 20 years of his career. When I met him he had started working as the Executive Director for a mental health company that was contracting to provide community mental health services for various counties in the state and his goal was to improve the service delivery and bring evidence-based practices to the forefront. he used the research to do that. He subsequently went to work at the state level to guide policy-makers as the head of DFS. If he had obtained a MA and worked as a school psychologist, then he would be limited still to that job.

I would suggest that if you have the ability and desire to become a psychologist, then why would you want to limit yourself? Most psychologists are not pure researchers or pure anything for that matter regardless of whether or not they have a PhD or PsyD. Final note, many master's level folks that I have worked with have expressed regret to me about not "going all the way" and being a psychologist.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Unfortunately, most (and I do mean more than 50%…probably upwards of 75%+) current students do not have a firm grasp on the actual economics of day to day practice. They look at the higher-end of salaries, assume they can make that money, and they underestimate costs for things like overhead (if they want a PP on the side or as a FT gig), which allows them to minimize their concern about the growing debt associated with grad school.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I agree that we should help them understand the economics and to avoid schools that crank out 100s of grads that don't match, but sometimes it seems that we say "if you don't want to be a researcher, then become a master's level practitioner." I never wanted to be a researcher, and I have found that there are so many aspects of what I do that I didn't even know were part of a psychologists role and skill set when I was a newly graduated BA in Psych. Program development is one that we don't mention much, but that can also be part of what we do. I am in the process of working with the Orthopedic surgeon to set up a pain management program with collaboration between the physical docs and the psychological docs. Advising on legal and ethical challenges and providing expert testimony is also something that I am asked to do as a psychologist. All of these aspects of my job involve research in varying ways so it is vital that I have a solid background in research methodology and statistics.

 

[mcvcm92]

Thought I would chime in as a entering first-year Psy.D student. I am attending a program that has great financial aid (e.g., graduate fellowships and assistantships) and strong employment outcomes in local school districts. Although students rarely complete APA accredited internships, my program is geared towards preparing highly competent school psychologists that predominantly work in the K-12 school system. I strongly believe that all school psychologists (even those that work in K-12) should be trained at the doctoral level in order to fully comprehend the research behind psychoeducational / statistical measures being administered, and also, be able to conduct research within their school (e.g., program evaluation)!

 

[smalltownpsych]

Thought I would chime in as a entering first-year Psy.D student. I am attending a program that has great financial aid (e.g., graduate fellowships and assistantships) and strong employment outcomes in local school districts. Although students rarely complete APA accredited internships, my program is geared towards preparing highly competent school psychologists that predominantly work in the K-12 school system. I strongly believe that all school psychologists (even those that work in K-12) should be trained at the doctoral level in order to fully comprehend the research behind psychoeducational / statistical measures being administered, and also, be able to conduct research within their school (e.g., program evaluation)!

Why don't the students at your program complete APA internships? Is it because it is focused on working in a school which I imagine there are not too many of those available? I also want to put out there, having worked in several different capacities in school settings as well as having a fair amount of inpatient experience, it would be a good idea for a psychologist who plans on working in schools to get some experience in other settings, as well. My inpatient experience has been invaluable when working in a school setting especially when confronted with self-harm and SI as well as knowing what severe depression and psychosis looks like as opposed to the mild to moderate that you tend to see in school.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Why don't the students at your program complete APA internships? Is it because it is focused on working in a school which I imagine there are not too many of those available? I also want to put out there, having worked in several different capacities in school settings as well as having a fair amount of inpatient experience, it would be a good idea for a psychologist who plans on working in schools to get some experience in other settings, as well. My inpatient experience has been invaluable when working in a school setting especially when confronted with self-harm and SI as well as knowing what severe depression and psychosis looks like as opposed to the mild to moderate that you tend to see in school.

I believe it's somewhat common (or at least not uncommon) for school psych folks to go the non-APA accredited route, depending on career goals. Although if one wants to practice outside of schools, then I'd imagine finding an accredited internship would be a priority.

 

[mcvcm92]

Why don't the students at your program complete APA internships? Is it because it is focused on working in a school which I imagine there are not too many of those available? I also want to put out there, having worked in several different capacities in school settings as well as having a fair amount of inpatient experience, it would be a good idea for a psychologist who plans on working in schools to get some experience in other settings, as well. My inpatient experience has been invaluable when working in a school setting especially when confronted with self-harm and SI as well as knowing what severe depression and psychosis looks like as opposed to the mild to moderate that you tend to see in school.

I believe it's somewhat common (or at least not uncommon) for school psych folks to go the non-APA accredited route, depending on career goals. Although if one wants to practice outside of schools, then I'd imagine finding an accredited internship would be a priority.

Students generally do not complete APA internships because most are solely interested in working in K-12 schools, which rarely (if ever) ask about whether an applicant conducted an APA internship. The program I will begin requires students to do a 3 day/week internship in a non-school setting (e.g., hospital, community clinic) in their fourth year, which I am so excited for, so yes I do agree that school psychs should have experience in more than just the school setting. Treating kids requires understanding that they exist in many systems that are always interacting.

The only school psych Psy.D/Ph.D students that I have heard of being very interested in doing an APA internship are those interested in academia or the very few interested in working in a more non-traditional setting (at least for a school psych) like a hospital or psychiatric center.

 

[CheetahGirl]

These reasons in the above posts are why I suggest a combined clinical/school program because you 'clock in' enough hours to be competitive for a great APA internship.

Hofstra (in NY) has an awesome combined school/clinical PhD program and I know of friends who have gone on to do internships at places like Montefiore Medical Center (which is highly-competitive, pays well, and they gave all their interns an iPad, i.e. nice perk).

 

[rbw]

Thank you so much for all the replies and advice, everyone. It's really given me some things to think about. I don't dislike research and academia and am actually more academically-inclined than not, but the biggest drawback for me is that with my background (very few college psych classes, no relevant research work, no relevant work experience, and no college math courses), I'd have a very long way to go before I can even apply to a program, especially if it's for a doctorate. Otherwise, I am fine with, and would welcome, a program that is more intensive and longer...it's just the road to get there that I'm afraid I won't pass.

Can anyone offer advice on what first steps I should take? Take undergraduate-level psych and math classes? Try to get relevant work experience? Etc?

 

[mcvcm92]

These reasons in the above posts are why I suggest a combined clinical/school program because you 'clock in' enough hours to be competitive for a great APA internship.

Hofstra (in NY) has an awesome combined school/clinical PhD program and I know of friends who have gone on to do internships at places like Montefiore Medical Center (which is highly-competitive, pays well, and they gave all their interns an iPad, i.e. nice perk).

Just to clarify to potential readers, Hofstra no longer has a Ph.D in school/clinical. It has a Ph.D in clinical and a Psy.D in school/community. Students in the later do not complete APA accredited internships; they actually conducted 2 half-time internships (one in year 3 and one in year 4).