Best path to pain med fellowship?

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PatchAdams25

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Hello!

Just some quick questions about the best path to pain medicine and the future of this field.

With the upcoming merger, do you think that a pain fellowship will be obtainable by DO and MD?

Also, is the anesthesia residency or PM&R residency route better to take if the end goal is pain medicine fellowship?

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Psychiatry or psychology. MD or DO doesn't matter:)
 
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Psychiatry or psychology. MD or DO doesn't matter:)

Interesting... a lot of what I read sounded like PM&R and Anes were the two main feeders into pain management medicine
 
I was being facetious.
 
I was being facetious.

Picking up on online sarcasm has always been a weakness of mine o_O but anyway is the common path Anes or PM&R? And are there different career outlooks for either of these paths
 
Picking up on online sarcasm has always been a weakness of mine o_O but anyway is the common path Anes or PM&R? And are there different career outlooks for either of these paths

The most common path is Anesthesiology (ABA administers the exam for all). The 2nd most common is PM&R (ABPM&R)... then neuro, then psych (ABPN). The newest pathways are Emergency Medicine (ABEM), Family Medicine (ABFM), Radiology, IR/DR, RadOnc (the last 3 under the ABR).

http://www.abms.org/member-boards/specialty-subspecialty-certificates/
 
The most common path is Anesthesiology (ABA administers the exam for all). The 2nd most common is PM&R (ABPM&R)... then neuro, then psych (ABPN). The newest pathways are Emergency Medicine (ABEM), Family Medicine (ABFM), Radiology, IR/DR, RadOnc (the last 3 under the ABR).

http://www.abms.org/member-boards/specialty-subspecialty-certificates/

Are career outlooks/path different for which residency you choose? For example I see that you did a Diagnostic Rad residency followed up by a rad fellowship before you did a pain fellowship. Was the goal of this to implement your rad background into pain medicine?
 
Are career outlooks/path different for which residency you choose? For example I see that you did a Diagnostic Rad residency followed up by a rad fellowship before you did a pain fellowship. Was the goal of this to implement your rad background into pain medicine?

Yes and no. Everyone has a slightly different take on pain. Mine was that it is a diagnostic dilemma. Some of the best diagnosticians in medicine are radiologists and so I pursued that route. I can't tell you have valuable that training has been. General radiologists read a lot of the MSK/spine studies out there but are not qualified (not all radiologists are equal). Many times the major findings are missed and patient suffers. Many pain docs (not all) just review the report (and also have less imaging training than radiologists) so the dx gets missed.

Each specialty has their strengths and weaknesses in regards to pursuing pain medicine. The fellowship is supposed to fill in those gaps, teach interventional procedures and how to properly manage pain medication. There is universal agreement that a pain residency is necessary but no organization is willing to change the education structure for pain medicine in this country.

How does the residency selection affect your future practice? It may or it may not depending on whether or not you want to continue to practice your base specialty. Currently, I'm 100% pain, but that may change in the future. Some anesthesiologists practice operating room anesthesia 1 day a week because it pays well and adds diversity. Most PM&R guys I know don't practice general rehab, but you may have a wheel chair clinic or SCI clinic once a month. Your future practice is molded by you and whoever hired you.
 
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i did an anesthesia based pain fellowship and did an internal medicine residency as well as anesthesia residency i wish i could have also done a PMR residency and a radiology residency and probably would have enjoyed doing both, but my wife told me i had to stop getting any more training, she was tired of it. IMHO the best interventional pain docs for the least amount of time training are PMR residency + anesthesia based pain fellowship, but having witnessed lots of inter departmental rivalry and egos and political BS, perhaps the best prep really is a psych residency concentrating on personality disorders. :)
 
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Yes and no. Everyone has a slightly different take on pain. Mine was that it is a diagnostic dilemma. Some of the best diagnosticians in medicine are radiologists and so I pursued that route. I can't tell you have valuable that training has been. General radiologists read a lot of the MSK/spine studies out there but are not qualified (not all radiologists are equal). Many times the major findings are missed and patient suffers. Many pain docs (not all) just review the report (and also have less imaging training than radiologists) so the dx gets missed.

Each specialty has their strengths and weaknesses in regards to pursuing pain medicine. The fellowship is supposed to fill in those gaps, teach interventional procedures and how to properly manage pain medication. There is universal agreement that a pain residency is necessary but no organization is willing to change the education structure for pain medicine in this country.

How does the residency selection affect your future practice? It may or it may not depending on whether or not you want to continue to practice your base specialty. Currently, I'm 100% pain, but that may change in the future. Some anesthesiologists practice operating room anesthesia 1 day a week because it pays well and adds diversity. Most PM&R guys I know don't practice general rehab, but you may have a wheel chair clinic or SCI clinic once a month. Your future practice is molded by you and whoever hired you.

Thank you for all of the information Dr. Weiss. I see that you did your Pain fellowship at Upenn. I am a current Upenn student (applying this cycle) who conducts research at Perelman in the Department of Radiology. I have an interest in Diagnostic Radiology, but also want a career where I get to have longitudinal care of patients (and hopefully be part of my own practice). This is where I started to learn about Pain Medicine and it sounded like something I would enjoy. I did not know if radiology provided a path into this but it is awesome to see you have accomplished this, and your patients will surely benefit from your background. Too bad you are not at Upenn anymore, I would have loved the opportunity to speak with you and learn more about Pain medicine. Thanks for all your help!
 
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Thank you for all of the information Dr. Weiss. I see that you did your Pain fellowship at Upenn. I am a current Upenn student (applying this cycle) who conducts research at Perelman in the Department of Radiology. I have an interest in Diagnostic Radiology, but also want a career where I get to have longitudinal care of patients (and hopefully be part of my own practice). This is where I started to learn about Pain Medicine and it sounded like something I would enjoy. I did not know if radiology provided a path into this but it is awesome to see you have accomplished this, and your patients will surely benefit from your background. Too bad you are not at Upenn anymore, I would have loved the opportunity to speak with you and learn more about Pain medicine. Thanks for all your help!

We can chat over the phone any time. PM me.
 
Family Med can do it? Nice. I'm neuro, no problems really. I think you don't see neuro in it because most neurologists don't want to do pain and many of my colleagues think I'm crazy for wanting to specialize in this


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i did an anesthesia based pain fellowship and did an internal medicine residency as well as anesthesia residency i wish i could have also done a PMR residency and a radiology residency and probably would have enjoyed doing both, but my wife told me i had to stop getting any more training, she was tired of it. IMHO the best interventional pain docs for the least amount of time training are PMR residency + anesthesia based pain fellowship, but having witnessed lots of inter departmental rivalry and egos and political BS, perhaps the best prep really is a psych residency concentrating on personality disorders. :)
I will have to disagree that PMR trained doctors are best interventional docs. I would say that its anesthesia by quite a distance simply because of the nature of our training. At least in my experience.
There is a reason why >85% of sponsoring pain medicine fellowships are through anesthesia. And the simple reason is, because in order to be a true pain medicine consultant, one must have mastery over managing pain in an admitted patient and manage peri-operative pain. This is where anesthesiologists excel, like PCA management, regional blocks, opiate titration etc. In the near future, this will become a big deal (it already is becoming) as more and more hospitals are realizing the importance of revenue being tied to inpatient pain control and how significant of an impact this has to the hospitals bottom line, HCAPS scores etc. Discharge times are closely linked to good pain control and coordination of care post-op.
PMR is the same amount as anesthesia in terms of residency years - so I am not sure if one will save time.
However, where anesthesia based pain docs lack, is 1) physical examination and diagnosis skills to actually manage the patient and work on treatment protocols, and ALL fellows should be making this a priority as opposed to worrying about how many stim trial they will do. 2) Documentation which is respected by colleagues, and clearly lays out the thought process behind your choice of intervention - simply anesthesia trained docs arent the greatest in writing notes...IMHo
The latter two can be learned and worked on, but it takes time - I highly recommend Waldman's common pain syndromes book. I also made protocols for myself based on diagnosis that I am not really familiar with, just to make sure I practice in an evidence based manner, like Fibromyalgia rx: a) really question the dx, b) no opiates, c) CBT, d) anti neuopathic pain meds e) low threshold for referral to psych + rheum f) accupuncture/ massage/ weight loss/ physical therapy, etc etc. Not every pain syndrome encountered will be low back pain or neck pain...
As the most effective model is multidisciplinary, I had to learn things that were outside the usual scope of anesthesia. But in all honesty, I think anesthesia trained docs are much superior in manual dexterity and speed at which procedures can be performed since the training is such, i.e. epidurals, catheters, nerve blocks etc. The familiarity with needles, equipment and exposure to manage acute pain etc is unmatched vs. neurology and PMR.
 
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I will have to disagree that PMR trained doctors are best interventional docs. I would say that its anesthesia by quite a distance simply because of the nature of our training. At least in my experience.
There is a reason why >85% of sponsoring pain medicine fellowships are through anesthesia. And the simple reason is, because in order to be a true pain medicine consultant, one must have mastery over managing pain in an admitted patient and manage peri-operative pain. This is where anesthesiologists excel, like PCA management, regional blocks, opiate titration etc. In the near future, this will become a big deal (it already is becoming) as more and more hospitals are realizing the importance of revenue being tied to inpatient pain control and how significant of an impact this has to the hospitals bottom line, HCAPS scores etc. Discharge times are closely linked to good pain control and coordination of care post-op.
PMR is the same amount as anesthesia in terms of residency years - so I am not sure if one will save time.
However, where anesthesia based pain docs lack, is 1) physical examination and diagnosis skills to actually manage the patient and work on treatment protocols, and ALL fellows should be making this a priority as opposed to worrying about how many stim trial they will do. 2) Documentation which is respected by colleagues, and clearly lays out the thought process behind your choice of intervention - simply anesthesia trained docs arent the greatest in writing notes...IMHo
The latter two can be learned and worked on, but it takes time - I highly recommend Waldman's common pain syndromes book. I also made protocols for myself based on diagnosis that I am not really familiar with, just to make sure I practice in an evidence based manner, like Fibromyalgia rx: a) really question the dx, b) no opiates, c) CBT, d) anti neuopathic pain meds e) low threshold for referral to psych + rheum f) accupuncture/ massage/ weight loss/ physical therapy, etc etc. Not every pain syndrome encountered will be low back pain or neck pain...
As the most effective model is multidisciplinary, I had to learn things that were outside the usual scope of anesthesia. But in all honesty, I think anesthesia trained docs are much superior in manual dexterity and speed at which procedures can be performed since the training is such, i.e. epidurals, catheters, nerve blocks etc. The familiarity with needles, equipment and exposure to manage acute pain etc is unmatched vs. neurology and PMR.

Almost entirely incorrect. Only benefit is managing potential complications.
All else goes to PMR. Acute pain skills are those of the crna or order sets making pca a cookbook. Inpatient procedures have no carryover to outpatient skills.
 
^why are >85% ACGME pain fellowships anesthesia based then?
Why do pain fellowships want anesthesia grads? Infact there is a HUGE bias.

"all else goes to PMR"? what exactly do you mean by that. I am sorry, I would have to disagree with that.
 
^why are >85% ACGME pain fellowships anesthesia based then?
Why do pain fellowships want anesthesia grads? Infact there is a HUGE bias.

"all else goes to PMR"? what exactly do you mean by that. I am sorry, I would have to disagree with that.

Best combination is CRNA with subspecialty certification in naturopathy. It is gluten and MSG free as well!
 
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Managing post-operative and inpatient pain with pumps and catheters has little relevance in the real world of chronic Pain Medicine. I did a lot of this in my fellowship, both in the cancer and general hospital setting. PCAs, tunneled epidurals, etc etc. It was interesting to learn, but it has been of zero use to me in practice. The regional blocks one might employ in the hospital setting can be useful in chronic pain practice depending on the pathology you see.

I will say that managing airway and codes is a definite advantage to the anesthesiologists.
 
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Damn it, as a psych resident, I was hoping for more love from pain docs for psychiatry!
 
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The best pain medicine physicians are the best trained and hardest working. Whatever program you choose, realize there are going to be inherent deficiencies and the burden is upon you to get that exposure. I had to take vertebroplasty courses through medtronic in maryland to supplement deficiencies at UPENN during my training.
 
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Damn it, as a psych resident, I was hoping for more love from pain docs for psychiatry!
You won't get much love since most on here are either PMR or are anesthesiologists, but if you can get a fellowship, AND if you can develop the procedural skills, you're probably more equipped to be a great Pain MD than anyone from any specialty, since there's tremendous psychopathology amongst many chronic pain patients. And I say this as an Emergency Physician who went through an ACGME pain fellowship (after being in practice for 8 years), and felt that was a great, and broad background for pain medicine.

Prior to fellowship, and in ED, I saw lots of ortho, neuro stuff, every type of acute or chronic pain complaint under the sun, did tremendous amounts of procedures, read imaging, dealt with tremendous drug-seeking, drug-abuse, and heard every possible story one could tell to manipulate for inappropriate drugs. More importantly, I dealt with codes and cardiac arrest of opiate abusers of all ages, saving some lives, while being unable to save many others, having made the dreaded walk down the hallway to notify many a family member their loved one was dead from opiates. I carry this with me, every prescription I write and know intimately the death and dread that can come from inappropriate opiate use and prescribing. In my opinion, the most important skill for a Pain physician in 2016 and beyond, is to know when NOT to prescribe an opiate. You won't save many (maybe zero) lives in Pain, but you sure can contribute to the loss of many if you're fast and loose with you're prescribing.
 
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By show of hands, how many people have trained - at an ACGME accredited pain medicine fellowship - a psychiatrist, a neurologist, PM&R, or anesthesiologist?

Well, I have....so I think I have a unique or at least a good voice on this matter. I have also worked with IR trained pain docs.

My opinion has changed several times in my career. At first I thought anesthesiology, because I was biased (I am an anesthesiologist) - then decided...because of the musculoskeletal hoopla stuff that PM&R is the best path.

But after training the psychiatrist - it was clear that ...hands down...they make the best pain physicians. It isn't really even close (well...it is close....but to be dramatic and all...).

IF the psych fellow works hard procedurally...and gets good at looking at images, learning anatomy, driving a needle, and is bold at self-learning, then they will be fine in that arena. But all the other stuff that pain physicians need,....well they bring to the table some big guns and serious weight.

But in the end it is kind of a silly question. Each field brings tremendous strength to the discipline. That is obvious when you train a fellow from each field. It's fun to watch...and also interesting to watch how each field lacks in skill as well. Anesthesiologist really struggle with clinic at first. Psych really struggles with procedures and imaging. PM&R struggle with realizing that they are - in fact - NOT the most important people in the world and others have meaningful ways to contribute also (that was for steve's benefit).
 
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I should add...neurologists don't struggle with much. They are pretty well rounded coming into the field. Perhaps they are the best.....I need to train more to decide.
 
By show of hands, how many people have trained - at an ACGME accredited pain medicine fellowship - a psychiatrist, a neurologist, PM&R, or anesthesiologist?

Well, I have....so I think I have a unique or at least a good voice on this matter. I have also worked with IR trained pain docs.

My opinion has changed several times in my career. At first I thought anesthesiology, because I was biased (I am an anesthesiologist) - then decided...because of the musculoskeletal hoopla stuff that PM&R is the best path.

But after training the psychiatrist - it was clear that ...hands down...they make the best pain physicians. It isn't really even close (well...it is close....but to be dramatic and all...).

IF the psych fellow works hard procedurally...and gets good at looking at images, learning anatomy, driving a needle, and is bold at self-learning, then they will be fine in that arena. But all the other stuff that pain physicians need,....well they bring to the table some big guns and serious weight.

But in the end it is kind of a silly question. Each field brings tremendous strength to the discipline. That is obvious when you train a fellow from each field. It's fun to watch...and also interesting to watch how each field lacks in skill as well. Anesthesiologist really struggle with clinic at first. Psych really struggles with procedures and imaging. PM&R struggle with realizing that they are - in fact - NOT the most important people in the world and others have meaningful ways to contribute also (that was for steve's benefit).

Wow. Encouraging to hear, thanks. I'm definitely worried about matching.

Hopefully PDs in Pain think like you 1 year from now!
 
Wow. Encouraging to hear, thanks. I'm definitely worried about matching.

Hopefully PDs in Pain think like you 1 year from now!

If you are truly interested, go for it full force - elective rotations (focus on the programs open to psych), publications, know your anatomy, PE, meds, review analgesics, get good LORs and do well on your in-service (despite it being psych). If you fail the first year, don't give up and apply again, you WILL get it if you are dedicated. Learning how to drive a needle is the easy part, diagnosing them correctly and being able to think outside the box is the challenge. Oh, and don't be weird.
 
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Also, is the anesthesia residency or PM&R residency route better to take if the end goal is pain medicine fellowship?

At this point, for getting into your fellowship of choice, I believe that the answer would be anesthesia > PM&R >> neuro/psych/etc.

In terms of how good of a pain physician that you will become, a lot of it depends on the person themself. With that said, I'd initially favor an anesthesia resident in the fluoro suite/OR. (FWIW, I'm neuro.)
 
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