Big name programs with the most friendly/relaxed residents/faculty?

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SEPsych

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Curious if any of the very top psych programs are known for attracting especially laid back (but still very good) residents compared to the other top programs? I'm all for working hard and learning a lot during residency, but I want to do it in a friendly atmosphere where things aren't always overly formal and the attendings aren't creating artificial stress that doesn't actually need to be there.

To start the discussion, based on what I've heard Im thinking MGH would likely not be what I'm looking for. Heard from people it tends to attract a very driven, formal, "business only" type.

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Care to expand? I had always been told that there is a great deal of variation in "atmosphere" of residency programs in all specialties even among similarly quality programs. Differences of personality between different metro areas, left and right coasts, etc.

Or are you just saying that by definition someone going to one of these programs is not "laid back" as the OP worded it?
 
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Not at UCSF, Stanford, or UCLA. The students are all pretty hard working because the programs work them hard. They have no choice. Now programs that fall under the umbrella of a big name do vary. For example, there are 3 UCLA programs. The reputation goes that the cool smart kids go to Harbor, the more over-achievers go to NPI, and the more laid back go to Olive View. Not sure how it is among the Harvard programs.
 
I think people misinterpreted my question, I know people work hard at all of the big name programs. But working hard is not mutually exclusive to having relaxed personalities.

You can take yourself too seriously, be impersonal, business only, no sense of humor, belittle others for mistakes, etc. working 35 hours a week. And you can be friendly with everyone, relaxed, get to know your colleagues, be patient, funny, etc. working 80 hours a week.
 
I get what you're saying, SEPsych.

As a very gross generalization, folks attracted to and matriculating at big name west coast programs seem to be more chill and laid back than big name east coast counterparts. In general, the faculty/resident is much less forma and much more collegial (flatter org structure). This is also the observation shared from many east coast trained folks.

There are obviously exceptions. Among the top programs, I'd put Longwood and it's residents amongst the most laid back and friendly, but I don't know about it's faculty...
 
The reputation goes that the cool smart kids go to Harbor, the more over-achievers go to NPI, and the more laid back go to Olive View.
That definitely sounds like a "reputation" you'd hear a lot more around Torrance than Westwood...
 
A problem is it's hard to consistently bring in residents of a specific personality type. One could, for example, filter applicants through scores and this and that but the only way we really know personalities is if the applicants worked with us to some degree. Even an interview and personal statement don't have any reliability in studies and won't consistently get the right type of people.

Personally, I want a resident that works hard, loves psychiatry, has good medical skills and is affable, relaxed (within themselves), and has good social skills. It's hard to get that right type of person. Interview only give us a very superficial glimpse. Some terrible people I know are very good interviewers. Good scores only show us the person is a good test-taker. Good interviews only show us the person has public speaking skills. Hitler had that too.

Now seeing an applicant as a medstudent, consistently give a damn, show me he is earnest, inquisitive, pushing the extra-mile, now that's something I can't find out about a typical applicant.

I know an applicant that I worked with side-by-side in the ER (going for medschool) and he's proven to me he'll be a good doctor. I wrote down in my LOR that I insist the reader call me because I'm absolutely serious this guy needs to be accepted. The guy put himself in danger several times to keep other patients safe. That's something you don't see on a USMLE score.

I don't know if any of the residents at my current program read SDN but I was introduced to a large number of them at once and I jokingly yelled out while hitting my fist on the table "I'm going to work you all to death!" I said it sarcastically with an obvious and absurd smile on my face to highlight it was a joke. While at U of Cincinnati, such a thing would've gotten a lot of laughs from the residents there. At SLU. all the residents looked at me in horror. I had to tell them I was joking because I could immediately tell they took it the wrong way. I still think a lot of them didn't know I was. Very different vibe with the residents. I'm noticing a lot of them are very serious (e.g. they talk to me like a samurai talking to a ronin--complete seriousness). I'm going to have to re-tell all of them when they finally start working with me that I'm not like that at all, and tell them to have some fun at the job.
 
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That definitely sounds like a "reputation" you'd hear a lot more around Torrance than Westwood...

I know several iterations of the above reputations. How about this one: NPI has the superstars, Olive View has the most sociable, and Harbor has the hard workers.
NPI has the geeks, Olive View has the easy-going residents, Harbor has the culturally diverse. I could go on and on...
 
I know several iterations of the above reputations. How about this one: NPI has the superstars, Olive View has the most sociable, and Harbor has the hard workers.
NPI has the geeks, Olive View has the easy-going residents, Harbor has the culturally diverse. I could go on and on...
I believe these. I think I was just struggling to swallow how widespread any reputation involving psychiatry residents could be with the word "cool"....
 
If a residency "consistently tries to bring in residents of a specific personality type" (paraphrasing Whopper above) - umm, wouldn't that make it be bordering on a cult? Like, "we're all of one mindset at this place." As opposed to: "we seek the most qualified applicants?"

Although I guess if you want to choose your residency program the same way you might choose a fraternity, that's up to you. There are definitely some program directors out there that will be happy to assist you in that.
 
If a residency "consistently tries to bring in residents of a specific personality type" (paraphrasing Whopper above) - umm, wouldn't that make it be bordering on a cult? Like, "we're all of one mindset at this place." As opposed to: "we seek the most qualified applicants?"
Folks tend to reduce qualifications to things like LORs and board scores, but I'd argue that someone's personality and accompanying interpersonal skills come in to play. Any program is going to be evaluating for that. At most places, someone who comes in entitled and arrogant may find themselves shocked to not get ranked despite a 250 step I and AOA. I think a lot of places are going to first look to rule out the Liabilities before evaluating for the Assets. If someone looks like they are going to be difficult to work with and potentially create as much work as they deliver, they may find their Liability overshadows their Asset.

Incidentally, I don't think Whopper is using personality type in the way you are. Most programs have a particular culture and are looking for folks who will be happy and productive members in that community. There are many folks that a program will interview and think "they'll make a good psychiatrist, just not here..."
 
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Folks tend to reduce qualifications to things like LORs and board scores, but I'd argue that someone's personality and accompanying interpersonal skills come in to play. Any program is going to be evaluating for that. At most places, someone who comes in entitled and arrogant may find themselves shocked to not get ranked despite a 250 step I and AOA. I think a lot of places are going to first look to rule out the Liabilities before evaluating for the Assets. If someone looks like they are going to be difficult to work with and potentially create as much work as they deliver, they may find their Liability overshadows their Asset.

Incidentally, I don't think Whopper is using personality type in the way you are. Most programs have a particular culture and are looking for folks who will be happy and productive members in that community. There are many folks that a program will interview and think "they'll make a good psychiatrist, just not here..."

Oh I agree that personality and interpersonal skills are important. My point has a certain context to it. First, some programs take "personality" to an extreme. I know of one program that matched almost entirely one gender for a few years. I'm not going to go into my theory about why that happened, but I'm just saying, you can take this to an extreme.

I think diversity of people in any setting is the way to go. If a program seems overly homogenous, it might be for a reason, and I would say, think carefully before drinking their kool-aid. (Although I fear, most people going into psychiatry have already drunk the kool-aid!) I personally think that psychiatry is no different from any other medical specialty, in that you should expect to occasionally work alongside some human beings who don't happen to fit into your particular junior-high-school-reminiscent idea of what the "in crowd" should be. Some of these people might actually be great psychiatrists. But weeding them out just because we all want to chill with an in-crowd, however defined, is not going to help our profession or the patients.

Of course, for sure, there are some people you meet where it's like, "no I can't work with this person." Even then I hope that people stop to think about why, rather than just basing these decisions on a gut level response, which I think is what fraternities and sororities do, no?
 
All that said, culture does affect residency programs. Some places are more conservative and button down, and others are more laid back, but I think it would be a pointless game to try to sort out those characteristics at the level of individual residents at specific programs. If anything I'd say, look at the larger institution and the location within the US for that kind of information. But to say that one program is "sociable" and one is "geeky" etc. is just bizarre. The Match relies on a computer algorithm, and doesn't care about those things anyway.
 
In general, I think you'll find psych residents to be on the laid back end of the spectrum. There's plenty of disagreement on what constitutes a "top" program, but I think that my program (WashU) was more relaxed in atmosphere than most of the other programs where I interviewed. Everybody hangs out with each other (frequent happy hours), most of the faculty members know most of the residents, everybody is very approachable, and there's a great deal of mutual respect. Some of the attendings do their weekly supervision sessions at bars/restaurants. But if you want, you can get all sorts of intensity out of the program... countless research opportunities, wide array of required and elective rotations, etc.
 
- umm, wouldn't that make it be bordering on a cult? Like, "we're all of one mindset at this place." As opposed to: "we seek the most qualified applicants?"

That's what I want. A residency to be with me as the head. For now on I'm going to make the residents at my program where Star Trek uniforms. (Yes I'm joking).

Being more specific and I apologize for not clarifying this, I mean having the personality traits that make one a good resident. I'm not talking about the traits that are neutral and more about the individual such as their musical tastes, religion, food preferences.

Being a qualified applicant in any field and this has been studied in Industrial Psychology (AKA Business/Occupational/Organizational Psychology) has showed that simply looking qualified on paper doesn't translate well into what you see from the person in real-life. Many aspects of being a good worker are based on personality. Again, I don't mean this in a "what the person does on their own time" manner, but their reactions to stress, frustration, histrionicism, social skills, etc. Not their religious or political beliefs (hmm well unless they're for genocide, Nazism but that's extreme), and what they do in matters that are outside of work.

On paper, the aspects I mentioned that I want to see in an applicant can easily be camouflaged by good USMLE scores (could mean the person is just a good test-taker), good LORs (could mean the person just knew those particular attendings that'd write anyone a good letter or is a good shmoozer), and ethical character? You can never figure that out until you really know the person.

A big point of frustration for me is that I've seen the application process in a few different programs and none of them have ever utilized the existing data from Industrial Psychology showing aspects such as interviews and LORs have no validity. I've seen some docs hail the virtues of evidenced-based medicine but not use any evidenced-based data to the application process itself. Any psychiatry program with a psychologist could easily utilize the psychologist to assist in this process.

Some may question why I care about personality traits but say LORs, personal statements, and interviews have no validity. I say this because in studies they have no significance in determining if the person will be a good employee. Use your statistical knowledge. Testimonials have no validity in statistics and that's what a LOR is-TESTIMONY. Interviews? Someone gives me a good interview it only shows me they're a good talker. That's it. Hitler was a great talker. You got to put that in it's place. If someone gives a great interview, just take it that they're a great talker nothing more and nothing to really open the door for that person unless they bring in some type of revelation (Dr. Whopper, I'm doing research on possibly advancing the treatment of schizophrenia with Dr X....I double check and yes he is doing that). Personal statements? Same thing. It's prepared, only what the writer chooses to tell me, and again has no validity in studies.

Another frustration is the reliance medical academia places on scores and "top 10 lists." Several people who go into our field are over-achievers, one-uppers and are at an increased likelihood of growing up in a family that possibly pushed their kids into high achievement, hence the over-emphasis on top lists and 5 star schools. Most of us know that these top lists while having some merit are way off, and that scores do have some validity but are poor indicators of truly judging a person.
 
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I'm a resident at Indiana University and I can say that we have a very chill group of residents. We honestly function more like a family than a group of residents. It's been so refreshing to join the group we have and to share such good camaraderie. We are kept close by a moderate number of total psychiatry residents (6 general + 2 triple board each year) and by having weekly didactics for the entire residents that is separate from our residency class didactics. We also place strong emphasis on recruiting people who have traits of being personable and functioning well within our group. If being with a pretty tight knit and enjoyable resident group is a primary desire for you then I would definitely check out Indiana.

Indiana may not be looked at as 'top name' right now but it is certainly greatly on the rise. Just look at the grant that our new chairman received to look into effects of concussions http://news.medicine.iu.edu/releases/2014/05/ncaa-dod-concussion-grant.shtml
 
The UCLA residents in Bakersfield, UCSF residents in Fresno are known to be a very warm group.
 
I'm a resident at Indiana University and I can say that we have a very chill group of residents. We honestly function more like a family than a group of residents. It's been so refreshing to join the group we have and to share such good camaraderie. We are kept close by a moderate number of total psychiatry residents (6 general + 2 triple board each year) and by having weekly didactics for the entire residents that is separate from our residency class didactics. We also place strong emphasis on recruiting people who have traits of being personable and functioning well within our group. If being with a pretty tight knit and enjoyable resident group is a primary desire for you then I would definitely check out Indiana.

Indiana may not be looked at as 'top name' right now but it is certainly greatly on the rise. Just look at the grant that our new chairman received to look into effects of concussions http://news.medicine.iu.edu/releases/2014/05/ncaa-dod-concussion-grant.shtml

I definitely had that impression when I was interviewing at IU in addition to WashU (which I already mentioned earlier).
 
Include Cincinnati. There's also a good sense of humor here.

Applicants... Feel free to PM for questions!
 
I just left Cincinnati to be faculty at St. Louis. Most of the residents I've met at Cincinnati were very friendly (of course I'm biased, what resident wouldn't be friendly to an attending)? But I can say that there are several factors promoting collegiality that were not in the program where I did residency. I didn't leave the department because I didn't like it there.

One of the inpatient attendings is a recent graduate and he empathizes with the residents and medstudents very well. The same guy is guitarist in a band--a very good band.
Two attendings that just recently left (one is me) also were recent graduates, and we also (at least the residents told us this) were very empathetic and helped them out. One of those guys was also in a band and now hangs out with those residents at social gatherings.
The attending in charge of the medical student curriculum is a former professor of English and is one of those cool-type of teachers.
A current attending is on the geriatric unit and she too just recently graduated from fellowship.
The pharmacist for the psych units is the best one I've ever worked with and this from a guy that worked at several institutions. She is up-to-date on almost everything. If a journal article came out on a med in the last month, most of the time she knows about it.

U of Cincinnati only hires good psychiatrists for their downtown hospital. All of the attendings I mentioned were considered top residents, most of them former chief residents that were considered stellar, but were also very warm and friendly. The department wants doctors working for them that improve the morale. Only doctor that I'd say was very bad wasn't part of their downtown campus and is in a hospital where medstudents and residents do not touch.

A refreshing aspect is that several highly respected attendings (on a national, even international level) are in that department such as Paul Keck, Doug Mossman, and while Nasrallah left months ago I'm including him in this category are approachable and very friendly. None of them ever pulled a narcissistic holier-than-thou attitude. Charles Collins, the head clinical doctor is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Even if you were a resident and you called or e-mailed Nasrallah, he called you back and treated you in a very respectful manner.

Only caveat I'd add is that the new head of the department is someone I don't know well despite having been there for two years and I can't say she fit into the friendly category. Not because she's not, but because I never really got to know her despite often seeing her walking down the hall.
 
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Hardly any psychiatry residency program is going to be malignant. Even at the workhorse programs (MGH, Hopkins) the residents I know are incredibly friendly and say the same about their respective programs. And no, they were not trying to recruit me (these are personal friends). Almost every program will have a few douches here and there, but for the most part, the people who go into psychiatry are quite affable.
 
That's what I want. A residency to be with me as the head. For now on I'm going to make the residents at my program where Star Trek uniforms. (Yes I'm joking).

Being more specific and I apologize for not clarifying this, I mean having the personality traits that make one a good resident. I'm not talking about the traits that are neutral and more about the individual such as their musical tastes, religion, food preferences.

Being a qualified applicant in any field and this has been studied in Industrial Psychology (AKA Business/Occupational/Organizational Psychology) has showed that simply looking qualified on paper doesn't translate well into what you see from the person in real-life. Many aspects of being a good worker are based on personality. Again, I don't mean this in a "what the person does on their own time" manner, but their reactions to stress, frustration, histrionicism, social skills, etc. Not their religious or political beliefs (hmm well unless they're for genocide, Nazism but that's extreme), and what they do in matters that are outside of work.

On paper, the aspects I mentioned that I want to see in an applicant can easily be camouflaged by good USMLE scores (could mean the person is just a good test-taker), good LORs (could mean the person just knew those particular attendings that'd write anyone a good letter or is a good shmoozer), and ethical character? You can never figure that out until you really know the person.

A big point of frustration for me is that I've seen the application process in a few different programs and none of them have ever utilized the existing data from Industrial Psychology showing aspects such as interviews and LORs have no validity. I've seen some docs hail the virtues of evidenced-based medicine but not use any evidenced-based data to the application process itself. Any psychiatry program with a psychologist could easily utilize the psychologist to assist in this process.

Some may question why I care about personality traits but say LORs, personal statements, and interviews have no validity. I say this because in studies they have no significance in determining if the person will be a good employee. Use your statistical knowledge. Testimonials have no validity in statistics and that's what a LOR is-TESTIMONY. Interviews? Someone gives me a good interview it only shows me they're a good talker. That's it. Hitler was a great talker. You got to put that in it's place. If someone gives a great interview, just take it that they're a great talker nothing more and nothing to really open the door for that person unless they bring in some type of revelation (Dr. Whopper, I'm doing research on possibly advancing the treatment of schizophrenia with Dr X....I double check and yes he is doing that). Personal statements? Same thing. It's prepared, only what the writer chooses to tell me, and again has no validity in studies.

Another frustration is the reliance medical academia places on scores and "top 10 lists." Several people who go into our field are over-achievers, one-uppers and are at an increased likelihood of growing up in a family that possibly pushed their kids into high achievement, hence the over-emphasis on top lists and 5 star schools. Most of us know that these top lists while having some merit are way off, and that scores do have some validity but are poor indicators of truly judging a person.

Very interesting whopper. I'm curious. What aspects of an interview or application yare valuable or could be useful in predicting a good resident?

Or if you could design a process or an interview technique that was evidence based for finding these desirable characteristics of a good resident, what would it consist of?and

I think this topic you bring up is fascinating and it surprises me it doesn't interest more people. Given the stakes of hiring a problem resident or hiring a group of residents that are not good workers or who are poor team players.
 
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This is true and also at the same program different classes can have different personalities.

Hardly any psychiatry residency program is going to be malignant. Even at the workhorse programs (MGH, Hopkins) the residents I know are incredibly friendly and say the same about their respective programs. And no, they were not trying to recruit me (these are personal friends). Almost every program will have a few douches here and there, but for the most part, the people who go into psychiatry are quite affable.
 
From my experience, the programs that are malignant are the ones that are in the bottom of the barrel, not university programs, and accept applicants that would have otherwise had problems getting to other places. There are exceptions.

While what I stated may cast no sympathy for the residents because obviously a good candidate shouldn't go to such a program, as I mentioned, scores and such don't accurately reflect what's going on. Some of these residents are in a hell-hole and would make good physicians and don't deserve to be in a situation on the order of a slave.

What aspects of an interview or application yare valuable or could be useful in predicting a good resident?
In studies, and I hate saying this, the only things that seems to yield anything of value is the standardized exam scores and grades. (The crowd: I thought you said you hate rating a candidate on their USMLE!!!! Kill him!). Hear me out.

It turns out that standardized exams are highly manipulative in the test maker's ability to modify and study it. With years of experimental questions, being able to put it through the statistical ringer, this and that, these tests do yield something that is of some substance.

It's just that as we know, it's not a good indicator and that's my point. It's not good but it's the only one out there that yields something of benefit other than grades.

Grades? Even less useful than standardized exams though still having some statistical validity.

SO WTF are we supposed to do? I hate saying it but we don't really have much but given the above knowledge here's where it does help us.
1-Do not overemphasize USMLE scores. This does not make a good candidate. If the guy screws up as a resident and his USMLE score rocked, this should have pretty much no bearing given that the proof is in the pudding and that is the resident's performance, not their board score.

2-Forget about interviews (in general-see below). This just proves that the resident is a good talker. I'm sick and tired of faculty and residents saying "yeah well he gave a good interview, accept him" just based on that. The fact that they're a good talker could be a bad thing in some ways, especially if the resident is found to be unethical, socially manipulative, and stretching the truth.

3-Interviews, LORs, and personal statements do have relevance (despite what I said) if there's something exceptional in there. Truly exceptional. E.g. the LOR is written by a doctor you know and you know they are a good judge of character. In which you call that doctor up and double check. LORs are testimony but testimonies could be relevant usually only in the case that it's from a known reliable and valid source.

Interviews: only relevant if the person brings up something truly exceptional that can be verified.
Personal statement: same too. Only if there's something very exceptional and verifiable. Some cases I've seen, a candidate from a third world country, grew up in a warzone, came to America with her family, paid for her own education, is currently helping the rest of her family get to America.

4-Volunteer work of exceptional scale: This is usually not possible in medical school but volunteering on a level that proves they just didn't do it as a fraternity requirement or just to fill their application to prove they care (by seeing those homeless people that they feel are lower than scum) doesn't prove anything to me. Exceptions: A vet that works with Wounded Warrior Project, someone that does hundreds of hours of volunteer work a year.

5-Exceptional life experience: E.g. former sgt in the marines, saw combat, may even have a Purple Heart, former business owner, former exceptional leadership experience-e.g. not only had a leadership position but did something for real with it, not just got elected to some bogus office due to class popularity. E.g. while on office wrote the manual on safety on campus and brings it in and it's thorough. People only do that if they give a damn and did a good job.

6- Knowledge of something in the field that is truly exceptional. E.g. I read Young Man Luther by Erik Erikson in high school. A guy comes in and can tell me about it, I'm more convinced the guy really wants to be in mental health.

7- Something just so out of the ordinary: A buddy of mine, a DO with average scores got into opthamology residency. He told me during interviews, he was asked to bring in something to prove he really wanted that field. He brought a copy of the first printed opthamology book ever. I forgot how old it was but it was hundreds of years old and had damage from bookworms (though now clean). HE said it as his dream to get into the field. His book was convincing. This got him into that very competitive field.

8- Something that you can read in between the lines that shows this candidate is good.
E.g. a buddy of mine, a graduated chief resident, went out of his way to accept two candidates into his program that were kicked out of other programs. What? That usually blacklists you. EXACTLY. See some people kicked out of programs were unfairly kicked out. They were still good residents and this is especially true of malignant programs. Whenever he saw someone kicked out, if he detected something that showed it was not fair, he'd dig deeper and try to figure it out. Candidates like that are usually thankful for the rest of their lives for the second chance. Out of that list he got, he was able to verify that those two did likely get kicked out unfairly. They turned out to be the best two residents of their year in the program.

9-THE BEST INDICATOR, ALWAYS is knowing how good the applicant is because you've seen them do the work.

The entire process typically used with scores and such only allow one to weed applicants out of the pile. One cannot humanly give each application the time each one deserves when there's hundreds to thousands and you have only a few dozen hours to prune it down to a few dozen.

When the process, however, gets to that few dozen you can give more time and investigation.
 
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From my experience, the programs that are malignant are the ones that are in the bottom of the barrel, not university programs, and accept applicants that would have otherwise had problems getting to other places. There are exceptions.

While what I stated may cast no sympathy for the residents because obviously a good candidate shouldn't go to such a program, as I mentioned, scores and such don't accurately reflect what's going on. Some of these residents are in a hell-hole and would make good physicians and don't deserve to be in a situation on the order of a slave.

In studies, and I hate saying this, the only things that seems to yield anything of value is the standardized exam scores and grades. (The crowd: I thought you said you hate rating a candidate on their USMLE!!!! Kill him!). Hear me out.

It turns out that standardized exams are highly manipulative in the test maker's ability to modify and study it. With years of experimental questions, being able to put it through the statistical ringer, this and that, these tests do yield something that is of some substance.

It's just that as we know, it's not a good indicator and that's my point. It's not good but it's the only one out there that yields something of benefit other than grades.

Grades? Even less useful than standardized exams though still having some statistical validity.

SO WTF are we supposed to do? I hate saying it but we don't really have much but given the above knowledge here's where it does help us.
1-Do not overemphasize USMLE scores. This does not make a good candidate. If the guy screws up as a resident and his USMLE score rocked, this should have pretty much no bearing given that the proof is in the pudding and that is the resident's performance, not their board score.

2-Forget about interviews (in general-see below). This just proves that the resident is a good talker. I'm sick and tired of faculty and residents saying "yeah well he gave a good interview, accept him" just based on that. The fact that they're a good talker could be a bad thing in some ways, especially if the resident is found to be unethical, socially manipulative, and stretching the truth.

3-Interviews, LORs, and personal statements do have relevance (despite what I said) if there's something exceptional in there. Truly exceptional. E.g. the LOR is written by a doctor you know and you know they are a good judge of character. In which you call that doctor up and double check. LORs are testimony but testimonies could be relevant usually only in the case that it's from a known reliable and valid source.

Interviews: only relevant if the person brings up something truly exceptional that can be verified.
Personal statement: same too. Only if there's something very exceptional and verifiable. Some cases I've seen, a candidate from a third world country, grew up in a warzone, came to America with her family, paid for her own education, is currently helping the rest of her family get to America.

4-Volunteer work of exceptional scale: This is usually not possible in medical school but volunteering on a level that proves they just didn't do it as a fraternity requirement or just to fill their application to prove they care (by seeing those homeless people that they feel are lower than scum) doesn't prove anything to me. Exceptions: A vet that works with Wounded Warrior Project, someone that does hundreds of hours of volunteer work a year.

5-Exceptional life experience: E.g. former sgt in the marines, saw combat, may even have a Purple Heart, former business owner, former exceptional leadership experience-e.g. not only had a leadership position but did something for real with it, not just got elected to some bogus office due to class popularity. E.g. while on office wrote the manual on safety on campus and brings it in and it's thorough. People only do that if they give a damn and did a good job.

6- Knowledge of something in the field that is truly exceptional. E.g. I read Young Man Luther by Erik Erikson in high school. A guy comes in and can tell me about it, I'm more convinced the guy really wants to be in mental health.

7- Something just so out of the ordinary: A buddy of mine, a DO with average scores got into opthamology residency. He told me during interviews, he was asked to bring in something to prove he really wanted that field. He brought a copy of the first printed opthamology book ever. I forgot how old it was but it was hundreds of years old and had damage from bookworms (though now clean). HE said it as his dream to get into the field. His book was convincing. This got him into that very competitive field.

8- Something that you can read in between the lines that shows this candidate is good.
E.g. a buddy of mine, a graduated chief resident, went out of his way to accept two candidates into his program that were kicked out of other programs. What? That usually blacklists you. EXACTLY. See some people kicked out of programs were unfairly kicked out. They were still good residents and this is especially true of malignant programs. Whenever he saw someone kicked out, if he detected something that showed it was not fair, he'd dig deeper and try to figure it out. Candidates like that are usually thankful for the rest of their lives for the second chance. Out of that list he got, he was able to verify that those two did likely get kicked out unfairly. They turned out to be the best two residents of their year in the program.

9-THE BEST INDICATOR, ALWAYS is knowing how good the applicant is because you've seen them do the work.

The entire process typically used with scores and such only allow one to weed applicants out of the pile. One cannot humanly give each application the time each one deserves when there's hundreds to thousands and you have only a few dozen hours to prune it down to a few dozen.

When the process, however, gets to that few dozen you can give more time and investigation.

I'm not sure why you had to go as far as a vet needing a purple heart to be equivalent to a former business owner.
 
Good catch. I think I'd find more cache in a man or woman who volunteered to potentially put themselves in harms way versus someone who tried to make their own buck.


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If a guy had a purple heart or other medal and poor scores, I'd likely put them in a higher category than someone with great scores and nothing else.
I'm not sure why you had to go as far as a vet needing a purple heart to be equivalent to a former business owner.
I didn't say purple heart = former business owner. The two are qualitatively different.

One thing I forgot to mention is I've noticed if LOR writers specifically mention they want to be contacted to verify that the applicant is good, this is also another very good sign and reliable.
 
If a guy had a purple heart or other medal and poor scores, I'd likely put them in a higher category than someone with great scores and nothing else.

I didn't say purple heart = former business owner. The two are qualitatively different.

One thing I forgot to mention is I've noticed if LOR writers specifically mention they want to be contacted to verify that the applicant is good, this is also another very good sign and reliable.
I was pretty sure you didn't equate getting shot in war to selling scentsy candles. With your multiple qualifiers that were latched onto being a vet it felt that "just" being a vet wasn't really that important.
 
Anything else you're "feeling"?

I'm feeling a disturbance in the Force.
My mistake, I'll take it for how it was grammatically written. "Purple heart or don't bother mentioning it."

Your "what makes a good applicant checklist" appears to be based on your feelings. I didn't think I'd get chastised for sharing mine.
 
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Wasn't meant to be taken as such. I bear no animosity and only wish to spread good-will.

I never said "purple heart or don't bother mentioning it." If you want to take it for how it was literally written, I never wrote what was in the quotes.

A thing about the Internet and forums. Written word does not communicate well especially when there is a disagreement. People infer things that were never meant to be taken that way, and lack of response for hours to days can only worsen the problem.

If you really want to talk about it in detail, there are other medals that suggest more character traits. A bad soldier could still get a purple heart. It simply means the person was wounded while in service against an enemy with a specific type of injury and not others. Other medals actually necessitate more thorough investigations. The purple heart was only thrown in as an example.

As for it being based on my feelings, it's actually based on years of experience that gave consistent results on top of evidenced-based data for an applicant process. My original point is the admission process for several residencies is not rooted in an evidenced-based process and from what I've seen appears to be based on a traditional approach, often times conducted by physicians who espouse evidenced-based medicine, but do not know that LORs and personal statements have no validity. There is a plethora of data available for the admissions process. An entire field of scientific study is devoted towards it.

If one doesn't know where to start, a textbook on Industrial Psychology could be a good start. I don't know if this textbook is good but it does have chapters devoted towards the subject.
http://books.google.com/books?id=EVx5K2ECbMsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=industrial psychology&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pz4gVOHFEdazyASygIHwBA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=industrial psychology&f=false
 
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