Black applicants acceptance rates.

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Don't be discouraged from applying to medical school, especially black applicants!

Here are some statistics for Black Applicants:

To be considered an average applicant, you need to maintain at least a 3.0 and a 24 on the MCAT (57.1% acceptance rate).

If you score above a 30 on the MCAT, and you have at least a 2.8 GPA, you start off with a have a 78% chance of being accepted and that increases to 91% with a 3.5 GPA, and above a 3.5 GPA to 95%.

With that being said, don't underachieve, but don't be discouraged from applying.

Black Applicants:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-black-mcatgpagrid.pdf

Members don't see this ad.
 
Do your best. Having a compelling story and a desire is especially important.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I wish I were a URM...

Don't be discouraged from applying to medical school, especially black applicants!

Here are some statistics for Black Applicants:

To be considered an average applicant, you need to maintain at least a 3.0 and a 24 on the MCAT (57.1% acceptance rate).

If you score above a 30 on the MCAT, and you have at least a 2.8 GPA, you start off with a have a 78% chance of being accepted and that increases to 91% with a 3.5 GPA, and above a 3.5 GPA to 95%.

With that being said, don't underachieve, but don't be discouraged from applying.

Black Applicants:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-black-mcatgpagrid.pdf
 
this is a very encouraging post for black students, and I don't see anything troll-ish about it...

I know a lot of black students that have gotten into medical school with 3.2-3.4 GPA's and 24-26 MCAT scores, so the statistics seem quite accurate.
 
The video says that UTHSCSA is #3 in producing black doctors, does anyone know what #1 and #2 are?
 
The video says that UTHSCSA is #3 in producing black doctors, does anyone know what #1 and #2 are?

It would have to be either Howard, Morehouse or Meharry.

Looking at the 2008 stats, these schools had 20 or more black matriculants:
George Washington U, SUNY Upstate, Illinois, North Carolina, Columbia, Drexel, Texas Tech, MU South Carolina and UT Galveston.
 
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It would have to be either Howard, Morehouse or Meharry.

Looking at the 2008 stats, these schools had 20 or more black matriculants:
George Washington U, SUNY Upstate, Illinois, North Carolina, Columbia, Drexel, Texas Tech, MU South Carolina and UT Galveston.


Pretty Impressive, thanks for the Info!

Look like I need to log into AMCAS and send more primaries out to Illinois, Columbia and South Carolina!
 
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....for once being black may actually work to my advantage
 
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Would being black help an fmg get into a residency program?
 
I'll second the OP in that being URM does help, I mean there's a huge under-representation of minorities in the US medical profession and this gap needs to be closed...

I applied with avg. to above avg. stats, nontrad and URM (3.4Ugpa, 4.0Ggpa, 31S) ... I completed at only 7 schools, got 4 interviews, 4 acceptances and 3 scholarships offers... Definitely didn't expect such a favorable outcome going in, especially considering the number of schools I applied to...

EC-wise, i had the regulars (leadership, research, volunteering) plus professional work experience beside my immigrant experiences/background, the only thing unique about my application was an award from the White House..

Goodluck to all applying, don't doubt urselves to pay too much attention to the naysayers... do ur thing n go all out
 
Men lie. Women lie. Numbers don't.

The right numbers in the wrong hands can leave room for misinterpretation and a self fulfilling prophecy of mediocrity.


The research above does not account for a very important fact: Historically black universities and Colleges (HBCUs), namely Howard, Meharry, and Morehouse.

These three school alone comprise a very high percentage of URM admittees each year. Their primary end goal is to graduate physicians whom will serve in underrepresented and underserved communities, and thus have chosen to value dedication in serving underserved communities as a primary criteria in their admissions process. This criteria is very often held at a higher standard than grades and MCAT scores at these schools. Hence, this difference in prioritization may be described as an extremely important counfounder: Which in this case, is an extraneous variable in a statistical model that correlates negatively with the validity of the "numbers" that you believe don't lie.

The afore mentioned schools receive (all together) an average of 15,000 applications a year for an average of approximately 400 seats which equals out to about a 2% acceptance rate, they are highly selective. Furthermore, these schools have produced some of the most respected and well accomplished African American physicians in this country's history. They choose and have historically chosen the best all around minority students, and I assure you their success wasn't achieved by admitting students who content themselves with underachievement and who choose to promote mediocrity to their peers as opposed to stressing the importance of hard work and the need to push ourselves to achieve.

You have clearly chosen to bask in complacency. It is your choice, and I respect it. However, I do not respect your intent on promoting that same complacency, underachievement and mediocrity to other URMs in this sub-forum. Frankly, if you used the time you spend promoting underachievement to instead, do research in a lab, or to better your academic performance, you will be much better served, and all other URMs would be spared of your deleterious message.

I busted my tail in undergrad, as I do now in Medical school and will continue to do in residency and as a professional. My GPA and MCAT scores were above what you've mentioned and the same is the case for most at the HBCUs and for most other URMs at Non-HBCUs. We did not rest and count on race to help us. However, threads and statements like the ones you continue to spread only aid in diminishing URM achievements, and in labeling us as tokens and race opportunists. Your involvement in this subforum is NOT welcomed.

YOUR RACE WILL NOT GET YOU INTO MEDICAL SCHOOL, NOR WILL IT KEEP YOU THERE.
 
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You have clearly chosen to bask in complacency. It is your choice, and I respect it. However, I do not respect your intent on promoting that same complacency, underachievement and mediocrity to other URMs in this sub-forum. Frankly, if you used the time you spend promoting underachievement to instead, do research in a lab, or to better your academic performance, you will be much better served, and all other URMs would be spared of your deleterious message.

I busted my tail in undergrad, as I do now in Medical school and will continue to do in residency and as a professional. My GPA and MCAT scores were above what you've mentioned and the same is the case for most at the HBCUs and for most other URMs at Non-HBCUs. We did not rest and count on race to help us. However, threads and statements like the ones you continue to spread only aid in diminishing URM achievements, and in labeling us as tokens and race opportunists. Your involvement in this subforum is NOT welcomed.

YOUR RACE WILL NOT GET YOU INTO MEDICAL SCHOOL, NOR WILL IT KEEP YOU THERE.
:clap::clap:
 
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@Bernoull: Your comments are very encouraging to hear, for it took me two business-related master degrees to truly be able sort all of the "TOUGH TALK", HARD WORK that some people tend to spout in life.

One must be able to truly discern the practical approach to being successful in academia. My take away, Bernoull, is that I must first "PRODUCE" and show up (early and often). I've also learned that many of these doctors will never be Nobel laureates or discover some biological breakthrough worthy of a Nobel prize.

Moreover, I believe it is safe to say that you can be successful in medical school if you are productive and learn how to use critical reasoning skills to develop a strategic approach to your studies while getting specific advise from people you can trust (like on studentdoctor.net).

Based on my experience, it is better to risk mediocrity (whatever that may be) by using basic knowledge to become successful than to use complex concepts and fail miserably. At least with the basic knowledge, one can objectively determine where one can improve when timely feedback is available. In other words, only use more effort or advanced concepts when the circumstances may dictate. Therefore, discretion is key; therefore, it's nothing too demanding for a medical student or would-be doctor. So, allow the circumstances to dictate your approach to academics--whether basic or more advanced tactics are needed. Be careful not to over analyze other people's comments about the term "HARD WORK", for it's a subjective term for which only your personal experiences can define. Who knows, you may enjoy that "HARD WORK"? In the end, a man must know his limits. When that is realized, then--and only then—can one start to be practical in one's approach to one's studies. Remember that PRODUCTIVITY contains a myriad of versions, and those versions can contain combinations and permutations of failed, mediocre, good, or excellent attempts. Know in which situation each of these versions are acceptable performance results. Learning is a process as well as progress. Be productive...that's all!!!:)
 
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@Bernoull: Your comments are very encouraging to hear, for it took me two business-related master degrees to truly be able sort all of the "TOUGH TALK", HARD WORK that some people tend to spout in life.

One must be able to truly discern the practical approach to being successful in academia. My take away, Bernoull, is that I must first "PRODUCE" and show up (early and often). I've also learned that many of these doctors will never be Nobel laureates or discover some biological breakthrough worthy of a Nobel prize.

Moreover, I believe it is safe to say that you can be successful in medical school if you are productive and learn how to use critical reasoning skills to develop a strategic approach to your studies while getting specific advise from people you can trust (like on studentdoctor.net).

Based on my experience, it is better to risk mediocrity (whatever that may be) by using basic knowledge to become successful than to use complex concepts and fail miserably. At least with the basic knowledge, one can objectively determine where one can improve when timely feedback is available. In other words, only use more effort or advanced concepts when the circumstances may dictate. Therefore, discretion is key; therefore, it's nothing too demanding for a medical student or would-be doctor. So, allow the circumstances to dictate your approach to academics--whether basic or more advanced tactics are needed. Be careful not to over analyze other people's comments about the term "HARD WORK", for it's a subjective term for which only your personal experiences can define. Who knows, you may enjoy that "HARD WORK"? In the end, a man must know his limits. When that is realized, then--and only then—can one start to be practical in one's approach to one's studies. Remember that PRODUCTIVITY contains a myriad of versions, and those versions can contain combinations and permutations of failed, mediocre, good, or excellent attempts. Know in which situation each of these versions are acceptable performance results. Learning is a process as well as progress. Be productive...that's all!!!:)
Well spoken.
I want to echo and expand a little on what I feel Black Surgeon was referring to in his post. If what is considered mediocre academically (i.e. 3.3-3.4 gpa, 28 MCAT etc.) the best you can do then be proud of your accomplishments and continue to pursue medicine with your head held high. I am not degrading individuals who have those stats, nor am I implying that they are not good enough. However, one should not aim to be mediocre and expect to get in to med school on the sole basis that he or she is URM. The overall tone of this thread suggests that as URM's, we can "half step it" during undergrad and expect to get in to med school, almost as if we are entitled to a seat. We are not. This form of thinking is part of the reason why I feel affirmative action needs to be done away with completely. (Sadly, racism is still very much alive and we are just not at a point where we can do this just yet.) In short, to reiterate what some have already written, forget about the idea that we have a high chance of getting in regardless of our stats. Study hard, EC it up, murder the MCAT, apply early and pray hard. The rest will fall into place as it's meant to be.
 
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@Bernoull: Your comments are very encouraging to hear, for it took me two business-related master degrees to truly be able sort all of the "TOUGH TALK", HARD WORK that some people tend to spout in life.

One must be able to truly discern the practical approach to being successful in academia. My take away, Bernoull, is that I must first "PRODUCE" and show up (early and often). I've also learned that many of these doctors will never be Nobel laureates or discover some biological breakthrough worthy of a Nobel prize.

Moreover, I believe it is safe to say that you can be successful in medical school if you are productive and learn how to use critical reasoning skills to develop a strategic approach to your studies while getting specific advise from people you can trust (like on studentdoctor.net).

Based on my experience, it is better to risk mediocrity (whatever that may be) by using basic knowledge to become successful than to use complex concepts and fail miserably. At least with the basic knowledge, one can objectively determine where one can improve when timely feedback is available. In other words, only use more effort or advanced concepts when the circumstances may dictate. Therefore, discretion is key; therefore, it's nothing too demanding for a medical student or would-be doctor. So, allow the circumstances to dictate your approach to academics--whether basic or more advanced tactics are needed. Be careful not to over analyze other people's comments about the term "HARD WORK", for it's a subjective term for which only your personal experiences can define. Who knows, you may enjoy that "HARD WORK"? In the end, a man must know his limits. When that is realized, then--and only then—can one start to be practical in one's approach to one's studies. Remember that PRODUCTIVITY contains a myriad of versions, and those versions can contain combinations and permutations of failed, mediocre, good, or excellent attempts. Know in which situation each of these versions are acceptable performance results. Learning is a process as well as progress. Be productive...that's all!!!:)

I've been meaning to reply to your statements, but I've been hard at work and haven't had the time. However, I've decided to make time tonight.

The talk of "hard work" has nothing to do with what you choose to call "tough talk". It is a reality that I live by and have lived by every day and a reality which those who have succeeded before me have lived and died by on a daily basis. Push yourself to heights which you'd never thought possible, in whichever discipline you choose. There is no secret, natural ability is the exception to the rule, but hard work and perseverance will get you wherever you want to go. Especially when it comes to academics.

What reality do you speak of? Your message is for one to "know his limits"? THE SKY IS THE LIMIT!!! It surprises me to hear such rhetoric from someone with a business background. I too! had plenty of real life experience pre medical school, I too! have seen and learned from those experiences, and I can honestly tell you that "knowing my limits" is the last lesson I've garnished from those years of sweat and tears.

I see your status says pre-med, so I assume you'll be applying and will be in Medical school soon. Well my advice to you is to forget about "knowing your limits", there will be plenty of people and tests to remind you of those "limits" as you progress towards your end goal. The last thing you need is to go into battle with pre-internalized notions about "your limits". Believe in your ability to achieve beyond what you've ever thought possible.


Believe you me, for I've lived through this! Often when you're down despite giving it every ounce of every effort you have, the only thing that will carry you through is that confidence, and that belief in your ability to achieve beyond "limits". Those who believe in their "limits" are those who end up quitting or settling for non-preferred routes.

Good luck.
 
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I've been meaning to reply to your statements, but I've been hard at work and haven't had the time. However, I’ve decided to make time tonight.

The talk of "hard work" has nothing to do with what you choose to call "tough talk". It is a reality that I live by and have lived by every day and a reality which those who have succeeded before me have lived and died by on a daily basis. Push yourself to heights which you'd never thought possible, in whichever discipline you choose. There is no secret, natural ability is the exception to the rule, but hard work and perseverance will get you wherever you want to go. Especially when it comes to academics.

What reality do you speak of? Your message is for one to "know his limits"? THE SKY IS THE LIMIT!!! It surprises me to hear such rhetoric from someone with a business background. I too! had plenty of real life experience pre medical school, I too! have seen and learned from those experiences, and I can honestly tell you that "knowing my limits” is the last lesson I've garnished from those years of sweat and tears.

I see your status says pre-med, so I assume you'll be applying and will be in Medical school soon. Well my advice to you is to forget about "knowing your limits", there will be plenty of people and tests to remind you of those "limits" as you progress towards your end goal. The last thing you need is to go into battle with pre-internalized notions about "your limits". Believe in your ability to achieve beyond what you've ever thought possible.


Believe you me, for I've lived through this! Often when you're down despite giving it every ounce of every effort you have, the only thing that will carry you through is that confidence, and that belief in your ability to achieve beyond "limits". Those who believe in their "limits" are those who end up quitting or settling for non-preferred routes.

Good luck.

Wow just wow...
 
@BlackSurgeon:
Based on your statements concerning "hard work," I commend you for working your own reality, for what you do with your own mind—whether favorable or unfavorable—are the results that will reflect your ability to bend or mold reality to your own will. In short, my experiences have allowed me to move past the platitudes of esoteric phrases and, has, therefore, allowed me to analyze what people really mean when they say things. My premise and conclusions tell me that one needs only to be productive and consistent around a certain subset of knowledge to achieve one's goals.


I'm amazed that you totally missed what I was deliberating in my statements. However, for the medical student, allow me to elaborate. BlackSurgeon, before I proceed, I would say that you have a firm grasp of what you want to do in life and how to achieve those things from your individually contrived perspective. Great! That is a rather common thing to do, but some of us—like me—approach things from a teacher's, philosopher's, and writer's perspective. With this, I take great care in how my words are presented on paper, especially when those words represent the thoughts that I'm attempting to convey to others.


You say that "the sky is the limit," and I say that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, only application matters and theory goes out the window. You tell me to "forget about my limits," but I say that knowing your limits can eventually save you. When I say "know your limits," I was not speaking from a pessimistic point of view, but from a viewpoint that would allow the native to eventually develop and plan a better strategy for achieving the native's goals. BlackSurgeon, I believe in the form of education called, existentialism. In short, it basically says that one has to make decisions and strategic choices based on limited resources, limited skills, and limited time.


BlackSurgeon, I, as an avid student of psychology, am more than sure that at some point while you were tackling your studies on a specific exam and project you decided that you had prepared ENOUGH. Therefore, your hard work was sufficient and, therefore, limited in its outcome. My statements were simply to speak truth to light to what many (and that obviously includes you) consider a given in their approach to studies. However, my comments were not necessarily intended for individuals with your background. I was writing to high achievers, like myself, who may have issues adjusting with their own unrealistic expectations to accomplish their dreams. My perfectionism proved unhealthy in the past, but I overcame it with a different perspective—while nonetheless hard work, it definitely was more realistic and achievable. No need to feign outrage.


So, yes, BlackSurgeon, even if you will not say it, "You Have Limits!" As intelligent or ardent as you are, you do not know everything, and you—quite evidently, as everyone else—live your life and function via a limited amount of resources , whether those resources are presented through time, skills, and/or knowledge. Have faith with those limits, for which you are obviously doing, BlackSurgeon—even while not realizing it. Again, you do not have to be a Nobel Laureate or winner to become a doctor (see previous post). Many people who are successful doctors have a sheer survalistic drive--not necessarily an intellect worthy of a world-renowned academician.


Moreover, I would offer this notion that one should be cautious in expounding their seemingly motivational prescriptions to would-be inquirers if one does not prefer the light of constructive criticism. However, in lieu of getting into a tempest over alternate viewpoints, I would conclude that I respectively disagree on some aspects of your opinions, but your perspective is your perspective—and one that has definitely worked for you. I commend you on that. It, thererfore, does not make you or me wrong or right...just different. It's nothing more than a self-opinionated meandering on each of our accounts.


So, I believe we are basically coming from two sides of the same coin, albeit your side has a more grittier quality than mine, but it's sufficient for the task at hand: which is to become a doctor via hard work and determination. My approach was more cerebral, based on internal mental processes.

No one will give you anything—one must learn how to acquire what one desires even when others choose not to give what one may seek. That's my life, BlackSurgeon.


You said that you busted your butt off to accomplish your goals. Well, kudos to you! Sorry, I can not give out prizes, but I would if I could--not that you would be expecting it. Additionally, hard work is hard work, so your statement is actually encouraging to me--a person who had to learn how not overcomplicate things. However when I said that one must know what results are acceptable in each circumstance, I could add degrees of difficulty to the conversation (i.e. , easy, medium, and hard). Of course, you are not going to approach an easy task with the degree of difficulty used toward a hard task. That would not be an efficient and quite possibly an effective use of your limited resources. In short, one must maintain one's locus of control when challenging any goal. Thereby, I'm promoting practicalityin achieving one's goals--not degenerative, limitation-based cogitation.

Furthermore, I understand your angle in this matter. You are saying that, when faced with a dream, one should do whatever it takes or use whatever in their arsenal of resources to acheive their goals. However, at the end of the day, it is still based on discerning one's limitations. There is a difference in knowing your limits and limiting yourself. One is based on "can'ts and cannots" and various contractions while the other is based on finding another method to achieve the same goal or learning to be strategic in bringing an outcome to fruition.


To all future readers:
People with finite knowledge become great things everyday—including doctors. To use what's finite to achieve what is deemed infinite will require faith—or confidence, which ever you prefer. My goal was to encourage individuals to maintain their locus of control and to not permit others or circumstances the opportunity to seize that control. I know many professors who will give low grades (as a result of deliberately difficult tests) to the whole class as a way to weed out individuals, but in the end those same professors will correct the grades based on what actually could have been accomplished by the students. Some students will allow this tactic to derail their plans, because these students are focusing too much on the plan's of the professor. The key is to have faith in yourself regardless of limitations, and trust in your own abilities instead of jedi mind tricks of others. Again, know your limits, because reality definitely does. Great things can be achieved if given the necessary amount of time or resources. Do not defeat yourself before the challenge has begun. Give yourself the opportunity to suceed or fail on your own merit--not by allowing outside stimulators (whether people or circumstances) to influence your thinking to your detriment.

I'm only saying, "Be fair to yourself!" Know what you can achieve with the limited amount of time or resources given. It's called critical reasoning or thinking and prioritizing. Doctors will definitely need these skills. Also, while BlackSurgeon does not expressly indicate this with exact words, he has these skills in addition to a respectable level of tacit knowledge in abundance--at least, through his written content. However, to me "being fair" means, give yourself the opportunity to succeed or fail. Do not allow others to dictate your strategy to be productive and consistent! Many may, unwittingly, discourage others, because these would-be motivators only know how to speak in the terms, phrases, and words for which only they can assess in reference to the unique details surrounding their personal experiences. In the end, you can take no one but yourself through those medical school doors! Your actions determine your success.:)
 
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@BlackSurgeon:

Based on your statements concerning “hard work,” I commend you for working your own reality, for what you do with your own mind—whether favorable or unfavorable—are the results that will reflect your ability to bend or mold reality to your own will. In short, my experiences have allowed me to move past the platitudes of esoteric phrases and, has, therefore, allowed me to analyze what people really mean when they say things. My premise and conclusions tell me that one needs only to be productive and consistent around a certain subset of knowledge to achieve one's goals.


I'm amazed that you totally missed what I was deliberating in my statements. However, for the medical student, allow me to elaborate. BlackSurgeon, before I proceed, I would say that you have a firm grasp of what you want to do in life and how to achieve those things from your individually contrived perspective. Great! That is a rather common thing to do, but some of us—like me—approach things from a teacher's, philosopher's, and writer's perspective. With this, I take great care in how my words are presented on paper, especially when those words represent the thoughts that I'm attempting to convey to others.


You say that “the sky is the limit,” and I say that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, only application matters and theory goes out the window. You tell me to "forget about my limits," but I say that knowing your limits can eventually save you. When I say “know your limits,” I was not speaking from a pessimistic point of view, but from a viewpoint that would allow the native to eventually develop and plan a better strategy for achieving the native's goals. BlackSurgeon, I believe in the form of education called, existentialism. In short, it basically says that one has to make decisions and strategic choices based on limited resources, limited skills, and limited time.


BlackSurgeon, I, as an avid student of psychology, am more than sure that at some point while you were tackling your studies on a specific exam and project you decided that you had prepared ENOUGH. Therefore, your hard work was sufficient and, therefore, limited in its outcome. My statements were simply to speak truth to light to what many (and that obviously includes you) consider a given in their approach to studies. However, my comments were not necessarily intended for individuals with your background. I was writing to high achievers, like myself, who may have issues adjusting with their own unrealistic expectations to accomplish their dreams. My perfectionism proved unhealthy in the past, but I overcame it with a different perspective—while nonetheless hard work, it definitely was more realistic and achievable. No need to feign outrage.


So, yes, BlackSurgeon, even if you will not say it, “You Have Limits!” As intelligent or ardent as you are, you do not know everything, and you—quite evidently, as everyone else—live your life and function via a limited amount of resources , whether those resources are presented through time, skills, and/or knowledge. Have faith with those limits, for which you are obviously doing, BlackSurgeon—even while not realizing it. Again, you do not have to be a Nobel Laureate or winner to become a doctor (see previous post). Many people who are successful doctors have a sheer survalistic drive--not necessarily an intellect worthy of a world-renowned academician.


Moreover, I would offer this notion that one should be cautious in expounding their seemingly motivational prescriptions to would-be inquirers if one does not prefer the light of constructive criticism. However, in lieu of getting into a tempest over alternate viewpoints, I would conclude that I respectively disagree on some aspects of your opinions, but your perspective is your perspective—and one that has definitely worked for you. I commend you on that. It, thererfore, does not make you or me wrong or right...just different. It's nothing more than a self-opinionated meandering on each of our accounts.


So, I believe we are basically coming from two sides of the same coin, albeit your side has a more grittier quality than mine, but it's sufficient for the task at hand: which is to become a doctor via hard work and determination. My approach was more cerebral, based on internal mental processes.

No one will give you anything—one must learn how to acquire what one desires even when others choose not to give what one may seek. That's my life, BlackSurgeon.


You said that you busted your butt off to accomplish your goals. Well, kudos to you! Sorry, I can not give out prizes, but I would if I could--not that you would be expecting it. Additionally, hard work is hard work, so your statement is actually encouraging to me--a person who had to learn how not overcomplicate things. However when I said that one must know what results are acceptable in each circumstance, I could add degrees of difficulty to the conversation (i.e. , easy, medium, and hard). Of course, you are not going to approach an easy task with the degree of difficulty used toward a hard task. That would not be an efficient and quite possibly an effective use of your limited resources. In short, one must maintain one's locus of control when challenging any goal. Thereby, I'm promoting practicalityin achieving one's goals--not degenerative, limitation-based cogitation.

Furthermore, I understand your angle in this matter. You are saying that, when faced with a dream, one should do whatever it takes or use whatever in their arsenal of resources to acheive their goals. However, at the end of the day, it is still based on discerning one's limitations. There is a difference in knowing your limits and limiting yourself. One is based on "can'ts and cannots" and various contractions while the other is based on finding another method to achieve the same goal or learning to be strategic in bringing an outcome to fruition.


To all future readers:
People with finite knowledge become great things everyday—including doctors. To use what's finite to achieve what is deemed infinite will require faith—or confidence, which ever you prefer. My goal was to encourage individuals to maintain their locus of control and to not permit others or circumstances the opportunity to seize that control. I know many professors who will give low grades (as a result of deliberately difficult tests) to the whole class as a way to weed out individuals, but in the end those same professors will correct the grades based on what actually could have been accomplished by the students. Some students will allow this tactic to derail their plans, because these students are focusing too much on the plan's of the professor. The key is to have faith in yourself regardless of limitations, and trust in your own abilities instead of jedi mind tricks of others. Again, know your limits, because reality definitely does. Great things can be achieved if given the necessary amount of time or resources. Do not defeat yourself before the challenge has begun. Give yourself the opportunity to suceed or fail on your own merit--not by allowing outside stimulators (whether people or circumstances) to influence your thinking to your detriment.


I'm only saying, "Be fair to yourself!" Know what you can achieve with the limited amount of time or resources given. It's called critical reasoning or thinking and prioritizing. Doctors will definitely need these skills. Also, while BlackSurgeon does not expressly indicate this with exact words, he has these skills in addition to a respectable level of tacit knowledge in abundance--at least, through his written content. However, to me "being fair" means, give yourself the opportunity to succeed or fail. Do not allow others to dictate your strategy to be productive and consistent! Many may, unwittingly, discourage others, because these would-be motivators only know how to speak in the terms, phrases, and words for which only they can assess in reference to the unique details surrounding their personal experiences. In the end, you can take no one but yourself through those medical school doors! Your actions determine your success.:)



I ascertain from this novel that you are saying pretty much that the end justifies the means. I agree with that statement... I have worked hard all through undergrad, have a list of Ec's and scored above average on the MCAT. However, my brother has a sub par GPA and MCAT score lower than mine (even after taking it three times) and still recieved acceptance in a top twenty school in the nation. Granted, his extracurriculars are amazing all other aspects of his application are questionable. When my brother got accepted into this great school, I was no doubt excited for him but afterwards it did cause me to reflect on my achievements and why they were necessary. My brother had a blast in college really ate up the college experience.. me on the other had a desire to to very well in college and focused entirely on academics....after academics it was the MCAT. I did not have a chance to really devle into other venues much less really experience the college enviroment that twenty somethings are in some right suppose to. I had my nose in a book and eyes on the prize never realizing that the prize could be achieved in other ways. It is not about working hard it is about working smart. I am not saying cutting corners is approriate but I am saying using you strengths to your advantage is. I am not academically gifted person getting good grades and doing well on tests is something I have to definitely work at. However, I am extremely well-versed with people. I have a knack with getting along with almost anybody. Nonetheless, I have neglected this strength and in order to achieve the highest GPA possible.. both of which are not necessary for medical school. To cut this short, working hard is admirable and there are certain instances where there is no other option. However, if a system is set for you to off-set your weakness and praise your strengths... work the system. There is more than one way to get to medical school I do not think one should be angry because an individual goes down the path of least resistance...well back to studying..lol
 
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Whoa, whoa. In college there is plenty of time (unless you have an intense major and also have significant obligations like a 40 hour weekly job) to have fun and study. A lot of people are club members, get a 3.5+ GPA, research, volunteer, and do whatever they want on the weekend while still rocking the MCAT and getting into med school. Its all about time management and effective studying.

I ascertain from this novel that you are saying pretty much that the end justifies the means. I agree with that statement... I have worked hard all through undergrad, have a list of Ec's and scored above average on the MCAT. However, my brother has a sub par GPA and MCAT score lower than mine (even after taking it three times) and still recieved acceptance in a top twenty school in the nation. Granted, his extracurriculars are amazing all other aspects of his application are questionable. When my brother got accepted into this great school, I was no doubt excited for him but afterwards it did cause me to reflect on my achievements and why they were necessary. My brother had a blast in college really ate up the college experience.. me on the other had a desire to to very well in college and focused entirely on academics....after academics it was the MCAT. I did not have a chance to really devle into other venues much less really experience the college enviroment that twenty somethings are in some right suppose to. I had my nose in a book and eyes on the prize never realizing that the prize could be achieved in other ways. It is not about working hard it is about working smart. I am not saying cutting corners is approriate but I am saying using you strengths to your advantage is. I am not academically gifted person getting good grades and doing well on tests is something I have to definitely work at. However, I am extremely well-versed with people. I have a knack with getting along with almost anybody. Nonetheless, I have neglected this strength and in order to achieve the highest GPA possible.. both of which are not necessary for medical school. To cut this short, working hard is admirable and there are certain instances where there is no other option. However, if a system is set for you to off-set your weakness and praise your strengths... work the system. There is more than one way to get to medical school I do not think one should be angry because an individual goes down the path of least resistance...well back to studying..lol
 
Whoa, whoa. In college there is plenty of time (unless you have an intense major and also have significant obligations like a 40 hour weekly job) to have fun and study. A lot of people are club members, get a 3.5+ GPA, research, volunteer, and do whatever they want on the weekend while still rocking the MCAT and getting into med school. Its all about time management and effective studying.



Oh I know. I am involved and do other things. However I am not academically gifted. Many people who do all those things and excel are particularly good at school or at least have been working at it for a long and thus have established optimal studying patterns. I am not one of those people...I really had to grind it out for a couple years to catch up to some of my peers. People are always quick to say XXX is achieveable just do XXX. As a tutor I realize things are rarely that simple for individuals. I think any teacher would tell you that.
 
@chinocochino: I'm where you are now, but I do work 40 hours per week, and I'm being even more successful with less time since I've dialed down the unrealistic expectations which led to past inefficiency and ineffectiveness.

@TechMed07: Albeit with a bit of sarcasm, I thought your response was quite funny, so I'm not taking the "novel reference" personally. I trust that you understand my point, for which you've evidently indicated in your statements. Hard work is a subjective term, but work is truly tacit, which comprises steps to get some order of business completed. Too some it may be hard work, but others my perceive it as a regular run-of-the-mill activity. You summed it up perfectly: work the system, use your strengths, and there are different paths to medical school. I also appreciate this statement as well: "People are always quick to say XXX is achieveable just do XXX. As a tutor I realize things are rarely that simple for individuals. I think any teacher would tell you that."

You said that I wrote a "novel" which again infers that you are approaching your day with a limited amount resources available (e.g. time, energy, etc). At the conclusion of your statement, you indicated that you had to get back to studying which also infers that you had a limited resource available (existentialism) to use toward completing a task. Moreover, with that limited resource, you have shown tact in your accomplishments. Hard work is a cute term, but it should never be an end-all strategy for having a common sensed, practical approach to whatever one does. "In short," LOL, I'm having fun with that phrase, for it denotes being efficient.

Thereby, if hard work is your only option, then work hard; however, if you can find a more expedient, less cumbersome approach, then work smart. So, I agree with you TechMed07, in spite of your seemingly mocking tone from an earlier post. However, we all can stand to learn from one another, including me. So, all insults are forgiven--whether real or imagined. Now, I'm going back to study. This makes my novel complete. ROTFL (while listening to mp3 study notes)...:laugh:
 
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@BlackSurgeon:













Based on your statements concerning "hard work," I commend you for working your own reality, for what you do with your own mind—whether favorable or unfavorable—are the results that will reflect your ability to bend or mold reality to your own will. In short, my experiences have allowed me to move past the platitudes of esoteric phrases and, has, therefore, allowed me to analyze what people really mean when they say things. My premise and conclusions tell me that one needs only to be productive and consistent around a certain subset of knowledge to achieve one's goals.


I'm amazed that you totally missed what I was deliberating in my statements. However, for the medical student, allow me to elaborate. BlackSurgeon, before I proceed, I would say that you have a firm grasp of what you want to do in life and how to achieve those things from your individually contrived perspective. Great! That is a rather common thing to do, but some of us—like me—approach things from a teacher's, philosopher's, and writer's perspective. With this, I take great care in how my words are presented on paper, especially when those words represent the thoughts that I'm attempting to convey to others.


You say that "the sky is the limit," and I say that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, only application matters and theory goes out the window. You tell me to "forget about my limits," but I say that knowing your limits can eventually save you. When I say "know your limits," I was not speaking from a pessimistic point of view, but from a viewpoint that would allow the native to eventually develop and plan a better strategy for achieving the native's goals. BlackSurgeon, I believe in the form of education called, existentialism. In short, it basically says that one has to make decisions and strategic choices based on limited resources, limited skills, and limited time.


BlackSurgeon, I, as an avid student of psychology, am more than sure that at some point while you were tackling your studies on a specific exam and project you decided that you had prepared ENOUGH. Therefore, your hard work was sufficient and, therefore, limited in its outcome. My statements were simply to speak truth to light to what many (and that obviously includes you) consider a given in their approach to studies. However, my comments were not necessarily intended for individuals with your background. I was writing to high achievers, like myself, who may have issues adjusting with their own unrealistic expectations to accomplish their dreams. My perfectionism proved unhealthy in the past, but I overcame it with a different perspective—while nonetheless hard work, it definitely was more realistic and achievable. No need to feign outrage.


So, yes, BlackSurgeon, even if you will not say it, "You Have Limits!" As intelligent or ardent as you are, you do not know everything, and you—quite evidently, as everyone else—live your life and function via a limited amount of resources , whether those resources are presented through time, skills, and/or knowledge. Have faith with those limits, for which you are obviously doing, BlackSurgeon—even while not realizing it. Again, you do not have to be a Nobel Laureate or winner to become a doctor (see previous post). Many people who are successful doctors have a sheer survalistic drive--not necessarily an intellect worthy of a world-renowned academician.


Moreover, I would offer this notion that one should be cautious in expounding their seemingly motivational prescriptions to would-be inquirers if one does not prefer the light of constructive criticism. However, in lieu of getting into a tempest over alternate viewpoints, I would conclude that I respectively disagree on some aspects of your opinions, but your perspective is your perspective—and one that has definitely worked for you. I commend you on that. It, thererfore, does not make you or me wrong or right...just different. It's nothing more than a self-opinionated meandering on each of our accounts.


So, I believe we are basically coming from two sides of the same coin, albeit your side has a more grittier quality than mine, but it's sufficient for the task at hand: which is to become a doctor via hard work and determination. My approach was more cerebral, based on internal mental processes.

No one will give you anything—one must learn how to acquire what one desires even when others choose not to give what one may seek. That's my life, BlackSurgeon.


You said that you busted your butt off to accomplish your goals. Well, kudos to you! Sorry, I can not give out prizes, but I would if I could--not that you would be expecting it. Additionally, hard work is hard work, so your statement is actually encouraging to me--a person who had to learn how not overcomplicate things. However when I said that one must know what results are acceptable in each circumstance, I could add degrees of difficulty to the conversation (i.e. , easy, medium, and hard). Of course, you are not going to approach an easy task with the degree of difficulty used toward a hard task. That would not be an efficient and quite possibly an effective use of your limited resources. In short, one must maintain one's locus of control when challenging any goal. Thereby, I'm promoting practicalityin achieving one's goals--not degenerative, limitation-based cogitation.

Furthermore, I understand your angle in this matter. You are saying that, when faced with a dream, one should do whatever it takes or use whatever in their arsenal of resources to acheive their goals. However, at the end of the day, it is still based on discerning one's limitations. There is a difference in knowing your limits and limiting yourself. One is based on "can'ts and cannots" and various contractions while the other is based on finding another method to achieve the same goal or learning to be strategic in bringing an outcome to fruition.


To all future readers:
People with finite knowledge become great things everyday—including doctors. To use what's finite to achieve what is deemed infinite will require faith—or confidence, which ever you prefer. My goal was to encourage individuals to maintain their locus of control and to not permit others or circumstances the opportunity to seize that control. I know many professors who will give low grades (as a result of deliberately difficult tests) to the whole class as a way to weed out individuals, but in the end those same professors will correct the grades based on what actually could have been accomplished by the students. Some students will allow this tactic to derail their plans, because these students are focusing too much on the plan's of the professor. The key is to have faith in yourself regardless of limitations, and trust in your own abilities instead of jedi mind tricks of others. Again, know your limits, because reality definitely does. Great things can be achieved if given the necessary amount of time or resources. Do not defeat yourself before the challenge has begun. Give yourself the opportunity to suceed or fail on your own merit--not by allowing outside stimulators (whether people or circumstances) to influence your thinking to your detriment.


I'm only saying, "Be fair to yourself!" Know what you can achieve with the limited amount of time or resources given. It's called critical reasoning or thinking and prioritizing. Doctors will definitely need these skills. Also, while BlackSurgeon does not expressly indicate this with exact words, he has these skills in addition to a respectable level of tacit knowledge in abundance--at least, through his written content. However, to me "being fair" means, give yourself the opportunity to succeed or fail. Do not allow others to dictate your strategy to be productive and consistent! Many may, unwittingly, discourage others, because these would-be motivators only know how to speak in the terms, phrases, and words for which only they can assess in reference to the unique details surrounding their personal experiences. In the end, you can take no one but yourself through those medical school doors! Your actions determine your success.:)

I will not respond to your rebuttal, other than to say that I believe it to be out of scope, oxymoronic, and circular at best.

This is a Medical forum, and thus my involvement on this forum is goal oriented, I give practical advice based on personal experience on a subject which I live through and a process which I have gone through. I am not interested in contriving metaphysical theories about life success.
 
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I respectfully disagree, Black Surgeon, that my comments are oxymoronic, out of scope, or even circular at best. However, I would say that your partial and yet stunningly superficial rebuttal served as needless banter for this forum. I can not believe that you've proven yourself to be an imperceptive reader based on the unnecessary drivel in your response. I truly stand in awe that two other members (i.e., Techmed07 and chinocochino) understood the point that I was making.


I even clarified my statements in addition to providing appreciation for your accomplishments, yet only to receive ongoing egotism. Oh, the circular reference could be due to the very necessary elaborations that were offered. Unfortunately, you easily become offended when someone provides an alternate viewpoint that challendges your thinking. The mere fact that I delineated my thoughts provides an opportunity for readers on StudentDoctor.com to expand their horizons by considering other's perspectives. If you're taking my comments as an assault on what you consider intellectual puritanism, I respond by saying get over it: your opinion is not gospel. Albeit useful, the sum of your experiences is not the holy grail to all paths to medical school. I'll offer my opinion whenever I consider it necessary to do so. In short, my cognitive acumen is not stymied by your infinitesimally miniscule assaults on my intellect. I'm still standing and writing and typing on this forum.


Take care, BlackSurgeon, for I hope you prove to be a most excellent surgeon.


Otherwise, this debate is over. :cool:
 
I respectfully disagree, Black Surgeon, that my comments are oxymoronic, out of scope, or even circular at best. However, I would say that your partial and yet stunningly superficial rebuttal served as needless banter for this forum. I can not believe that you've proven yourself to be an imperceptive reader based on the unnecessary drivel in your response. I truly stand in awe that two other members (i.e., Techmed07 and chinocochino) understood the point that I was making.


I even clarified my statements in addition to providing appreciation for your accomplishments, yet only to receive ongoing egotism. Oh, the circular reference could be due to the very necessary elaborations that were offered. Unfortunately, you easily become offended when someone provides an alternate viewpoint that challendges your thinking. The mere fact that I delineated my thoughts provides an opportunity for readers on StudentDoctor.com to expand their horizons by considering other's perspectives. If you're taking my comments as an assault on what you consider intellectual puritanism, I respond by saying get over it: your opinion is not gospel. Albeit useful, the sum of your experiences is not the holy grail to all paths to medical school. I'll offer my opinion whenever I consider it necessary to do so. In short, my cognitive acumen is not stymied by your infinitesimally miniscule assaults on my intellect. I'm still standing and writing and typing on this forum.


Take care, BlackSurgeon, for I hope you prove to be a most excellent surgeon.


Otherwise, this debate is over. :cool:

I do not need your appreciation. Your acknowledgement offers me no personal sense of validation, and lastly, I have never claimed to be (nor do I believe that I am) accomplished.

I Know who you are in spite of the computer screen you've chosen to hide behind, and it is a shame and sad that this is the way you've chosen to address me, especially after the way you ended things. The respect I have for you is "infinitesimally miniscule". Say hello to D and Chris.

You've fooled me in the past, but I have completely moved on, and will never allow it to happen again.
 
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I do not need your appreciation. Your acknowledgement offers me no personal sense of validation, and lastly, I have never claimed to be (nor do I believe that I am) accomplished.

I Know who you are in spite of the computer screen you've chosen to hide behind, and it is a shame and sad that this is the way you've chosen to address me, especially after the way you ended things. The respect I have for you is "infinitesimally miniscule". Say hello to D and Chris.

You've fooled me in the past, but I have completely moved on, and will never allow it to happen again.


What is your problem exactly?
 
Dude, your big words are hard to understand. Its fine to be erudite and well-spoken, but you're busting out vocab words like its a spelling bee.

I respectfully disagree, Black Surgeon, that my comments are oxymoronic, out of scope, or even circular at best. However, I would say that your partial and yet stunningly superficial rebuttal served as needless banter for this forum. I can not believe that you've proven yourself to be an imperceptive reader based on the unnecessary drivel in your response. I truly stand in awe that two other members (i.e., Techmed07 and chinocochino) understood the point that I was making.


I even clarified my statements in addition to providing appreciation for your accomplishments, yet only to receive ongoing egotism. Oh, the circular reference could be due to the very necessary elaborations that were offered. Unfortunately, you easily become offended when someone provides an alternate viewpoint that challendges your thinking. The mere fact that I delineated my thoughts provides an opportunity for readers on StudentDoctor.com to expand their horizons by considering other's perspectives. If you're taking my comments as an assault on what you consider intellectual puritanism, I respond by saying get over it: your opinion is not gospel. Albeit useful, the sum of your experiences is not the holy grail to all paths to medical school. I'll offer my opinion whenever I consider it necessary to do so. In short, my cognitive acumen is not stymied by your infinitesimally miniscule assaults on my intellect. I'm still standing and writing and typing on this forum.


Take care, BlackSurgeon, for I hope you prove to be a most excellent surgeon.


Otherwise, this debate is over. :cool:
 
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I do not need your appreciation. Your acknowledgement offers me no personal sense of validation, and lastly, I have never claimed to be (nor do I believe that I am) accomplished.

I Know who you are in spite of the computer screen you've chosen to hide behind, and it is a shame and sad that this is the way you've chosen to address me, especially after the way you ended things. The respect I have for you is "infinitesimally miniscule". Say hello to D and Chris.

You've fooled me in the past, but I have completely moved on, and will never allow it to happen again.

@BlackSurgeon: Other than responding to your comments and picturing a rather disgruntled looking avatar in image of Cornell West, I DO NOT KNOW YOU!!!

Therefore, please do not attach me with some other people who have misused in some past encounter. I only wanted to read some positive, beneficial comments about medical school from people who have matriculated in medical school with unique experience. In this case, the experience was for underrepresented individuals (i.e., African Americans and other minorities).

@chinocochino: I'll try to talk in a more standard way of English, which would be similar to coffee-table conversation. However, it is hard for me to do that in the phase of someone who is belittling me for providing constructive criticism at the most and an alternate viewpoint at the least.

I've had many African-Americans with stern views on achievement in life who did not benefit me in academic career in the past. Moreover, when I heard BlackSurgeon speaking, it just reminded me of a great deal of past disappointment and discouragement, so I was making a plea to BlackSurgeon and others to be careful about how they paint a picture in order to motivate others (i.e., inquiring minds on StudentDoctor.com). In other words, that picture--even if it was meant to do some good--could deliver more adverse affects.

Somehow my remarks served as an unintended insult to BlackSurgeon, resulting in the present unfortunate tempest that now exists.

@BlackSurgeon: I apologize for any insults that I have particpated in whether real or imagined.

I understand that my remarks may have caused you to reflexively perceive that I was devaluing your life experiences. If this is so, I can not say it enough, "I apologize and you obviously know a great deal." I, therefore, will not post any additional emoticons, for those may serve as unintended teasing on my part. Again, I'm remorseful for unknowingly instigating this most unpleasant experience.
 
I unfortunately had to choose less preferred routes, because I was battling anxiety disorder that caused a great deal of unrealistic expectations. I wanted to do so well that I never let up on myself. I constantly derided my accomplishments, never giving myself a break from self-criticism even when I knew I actually did my best. Moreover, I truly believed that I should have received counseling for my issue that I've obviously suffered from since early childhood. My anxiety would get so paralyzing that it would cause me to hold my breath until my chest and neck was flooded with aches of pain.

It took me a while to get over the constantly foreboding mood of impending doom or the agony of defeat when even placing a piece of paper in the wrong place or throwing away some unnecessary newspaper. Goodness, I"ve always thought about what it would be like to be a doctor. You guys are probably younger than me, so I understand if I'm viewed with a certain level of suspicion. But I've always admired good students even thought at times my want to do well while not accepting that my "tastes" and "expectations" would mostly exceed my abilities.

However, with time, I learned to lower my expectations which actually worked for me, since I thought everything that I produced should be the equivalent to a world-renown masterpiece.

So, BlackSurgeon, I truly admire you, and I'm even a little envious of you, because you made it to medical school without being a fanciful scholar but a person who worked hard and was persistent. So, in lieu of doubting myself, I should have trusted in my abilities despite what my tastes allowed me to perceive. I was scared to risk being exposed as a fraud--even though I knew I was, indeed, no fraud. I guess somehow I took up the voice of all critics from my past--especially of a highly critical significant other: my mother. She always criticized me as well as my aunts and uncles. She was not responsible to take primary care of me, so I was raised along with my older brother and two of my younger siblings. I never was good at taking more criticism on top of my own unrealistic criticism. In the past, the additional criticism would cause me to freeze or shutdown while having this massive pressure on my chest and tightness in the neck, which would cause both to ache with pain. Now, at the age of 33, I'm still thinking about medical school--this would total nine (9) at this point. I have an MBA (general business) and MPA (professional accountancy), but I've always thought about medicine.

So, I've encountered anxiety issues in the past, for which I should have elicited some form of counseling, but an economically challenged background prevented that.

So, I regret that I may have projected some of those same restrictive voices on to BlackSurgeon which caused me to perceive his remarks as negative. This is why I used to phrase "to know your limits", because I was using a self-therapeutic application to "tone it down."
 
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@chinocochino:This is not just about my writing. I tend to do the same thing in just about all areas of my life. However, I'm having more success by believing that I have what it takes to succeed without making it too difficult.This is what caused me to not be able to perform to standard in the past because I end up overdoing it. So, you see, when others come and demand more without knowing how intense my inner life is, I end up shutting down only to find that the remarks were not targeted at me.

In short, I'll try to do better--I hope this is not OCD or something. Okay, let me take that remark back. I'm just a person who cares about his work---that's all. Now, I'll repeat and meditate on that phrase for a while.

Now, his majesty is leaving the forum. Until next time....:laugh: Oh, I couldn't help but use another emoticon. They're so addictive...
 
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@ check077 I truly understand where you are coming from. I am also a full time professional and part bread winner for my family (my father lost job while I was in gradschool), and I had to learn how to curb my unrealistic expectations. It wasn't until this semester when I started taking organic, after a bad side effect to caffeine (2 cans of coca cola) that I decided I needed to be more realistic with my constraints, and learn how to work within my limits. And I have been less stressed, and have been doing better with work and school.
 
This is why StudentDoctor.com is such a great place. It allows one to socialize with others of similar experiences--however, unique they may be.

So, now, I come with the idea or premise that I should give myself the total opportunity to succeed or fail--regardless of limitations. I realize that reassurance in my past successes will more than make up for any negative internal criticism that may be presently limiting or challenging me.

It is--as you say, Djuobah--learning how to tact down those unrealistic expectations and use what you have. With that being said, Medical Schools want a whole person--not just a walking encyclopedia with indifference to the human experience. So, I believe encouraging comments like yours will always be welcomed on this board. Thanks again for offering your perspective. :thumbup:
 
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Welp I know I'm going to med-school. Hahahaha :zip:
:laugh::roflcopter:
 
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Touchy topic and many good viewpoints. Just hope we all can realize our vast capabilities and provide to the communities at large


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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@Edris2 :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Opf7X7C.jpg
 
Mighty suspicious timing given the sentiments expressed by the minority in another active URM thread.
 
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