BP/Hrt-rate & Exercise?

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kreno

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I have a question about athletic people and heart/rate blood-presure. I know in athletic people, a normal heart-rate can be below 60. My question is... are blood pressures generally lower in an athletic population?

Second, if someone is out of shape and has a bp of say 140/90... can you except bp to fall after months of exercise (aerobic, etc)?
thanks!

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I have a question about athletic people and heart/rate blood-presure. I know in athletic people, a normal heart-rate can be below 60. My question is... are blood pressures generally lower in an athletic population?

Second, if someone is out of shape and has a bp of say 140/90... can you except bp to fall after months of exercise (aerobic, etc)?
thanks!


good questions, i'm curious to hear the response of others too.

If, by athletic, you mean someone who does a lot of cardio, I would say yes, their blood pressure would be lower as a result. But, one has to take into acccount genetics also, many are predisposed to having high bp even though they may be athletic. Also, I don't think merely weightlifting does as much for lowering blood pressure like cardio does (esp. if the cardio is mixed up, i.e. interval training and long distance).

Also, this argument can't be considered without taking diet into account. So, my 2 cents is this, if someone begins doing cardio regularly and improving their diet, then yes their indiv. bp and resting hr will be somewhat lowered as a result.

But I'm not in med school yet, so someone who knows more please share...
 
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In athletic people I believe their heart rate drops because their heart is more efficient and can maintain cardiac output with fewer beats. However, perfusion is perfusion, so I wouldn't expect their pressure to drop TOO much.

By TOO much, therein lies the answer to the second question. YES, overweight slugs can drop their BP with exercise - the caveat being that it's only like 5 mm Hg and most slugs would rather just take a pill than watch what they eat and exercise - me included!
 
I am pretty athletic and in good cardio shape. My hr is about 55-60 and bp is about 110/65
 
Increased skeletal muscle mass + metabolic byproducts both serve to increase perfusion, thereby decreasing MAP.
 
Blood pressure does seem to correlate with heart rate. When I'm not exercising & eating a lot of junk my bp is 120/80. Now that I'm exercising & eating healthy my bp is 100/72 and my resting pulse is in the 50s. So if you tell a patient that exercise & healthy habits will drop their bp, it is usually true. Meds wouldn't be necessary in these cases if patients actually did what you told them to do. :)
 
Yes athletes will have lower heart rates and blood pressure than the average person. Functional hypertrophy occurs with endurence exercise resulting in a decreased need of frequency of heart beat (ie. during every heart beat, a larger volume of blood is pumped than the avergae person). With healthy ventilation, a very well trained athlete (ie. x-country skiers) can have a resting HR of 35-40 bpm and a BP below 100. Keep in mind that as with any muscle, the more you "work-out" your heart, the more efficient it's metabolic capabilities become. A really good book relating to exercise physiology is: Exercise Physiology by Brooks.
 
"working out" your heart isn't always a good thing as in CHF. the more it pumps against high resistance the more it hypertrophies. the hypertrophy eventually leads to decreased CO. Unfortunately most physicians in practice see much more of this kind of situation than functional hypertrophy.
 
I am not thin. My wife charitably calls me "sturdy." I have a BMI of about 30 and I eat a lot of junk food. I run every day (three to six miles) and my resting pulse is in the low fifties with a BP that runs in the low 120s/low 80s. I can run three miles in 24 minutes without too much effort.

I also have never smoked or done drugs and my drinking career only spanned about six years before I stopped cold-turkey at the age of 25. (I'm 41 now.)


Incidently, the BMI charts say that I would have to get down to 170 (from my current 220) to be at my ideal weight. I know I'm no Mary-Kate Olsen but fifty pounds? Come on. Is any allowance made in those charts for extra muscle mass? I once got down to 200 pounds but there is no way I will ever get down to 170 (what I weighed in high school) unless I am kidnapped by the Taliban and forced to march from Karachi to Kabul.
 
Exercise should have little effect on resting heart rate in the long term. However, blood pressure is significantly lower (meaning closer to normal blood pressure) in the athletic population than in the non-athletic population. This has very little to do with hypertrophy, as hypertrophy is more related to myocardial ischemia than athletic endurance. Hypertrophy has negative effects, as the heart-muscle requires significantly more blood, so there is a higher blood pressure in the coronary arteries, and so there is a compound effect causing the heart to be more ischemic as blood pressure increases which contributes to atherosclerosis. Remember, hypertrophy is related to insufficiency, not exercise. In these cases, we usually prescribe beta-blockers and calcium channel blockers (metoprolol) to control heart rate and blood pressure to prevent further narrowing of the coronary arteries.

Exercise is always good for you. It decreases blood pressure by allowing the heart to be more efficient with the oxygen it has.



Regarding bradycardia: it's never healthy for you. Heart rates in the 40s-50s indicate something wrong with your heart. Resting heart rates in the 80s-100s indicate something wrong with your heart as well. It's not as clear as you think.


(cardiology residents and fellows, feel free to edit as you please. :D )
 
There are other factors that you have to take into consideration. I'm in great physical condition - train for triathlons. However, my BP is 150/105 which is pretty bad...mostly due to stress and genetics. Thanks mom!
 
My resting HR is about 60 and my blood pressure is usually 100-95/55-60.
 
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g3pro said:
Exercise should have little effect on resting heart rate in the long term. However, blood pressure is significantly lower (meaning closer to normal blood pressure) in the athletic population than in the non-athletic population. This has very little to do with hypertrophy, as hypertrophy is more related to myocardial ischemia than athletic endurance. Hypertrophy has negative effects, as the heart-muscle requires significantly more blood, so there is a higher blood pressure in the coronary arteries, and so there is a compound effect causing the heart to be more ischemic as blood pressure increases which contributes to atherosclerosis. Remember, hypertrophy is related to insufficiency, not exercise. In these cases, we usually prescribe beta-blockers and calcium channel blockers (metoprolol) to control heart rate and blood pressure to prevent further narrowing of the coronary arteries.

Exercise is always good for you. It decreases blood pressure by allowing the heart to be more efficient with the oxygen it has.



Regarding bradycardia: it's never healthy for you. Heart rates in the 40s-50s indicate something wrong with your heart. Resting heart rates in the 80s-100s indicate something wrong with your heart as well. It's not as clear as you think.


(cardiology residents and fellows, feel free to edit as you please. :D )


Remember, we treat the patient, not the lab result. I won't lose any sleep over an alert, active, marathon runner who has a resting pulse of 45 as an incidental finding.
 
Deanmonster said:
my resting HR is 45 and BP is 140/90. Plus, I have like 5% body fat, so WHY is my BP so high?

i'm similar. but it's only my systolic which gets up in the 130s or 140s while diastolic is 60s to 70s. why is this?
 
g3pro said:
Remember, hypertrophy is related to insufficiency, not exercise. QUOTE]


g3pro, you must have been asleep during physiology lecture. Read this link to brush up on your physiologic hypertrophy.


http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/cvphysiology/HF009.htm

As far as low blood pressure, most clinicians don't worry about it as long as they are asymptomatic. Bradycardia, not sure about but probably the same.
 
Hosehead said:
g3pro, you must have been asleep during physiology lecture. Read this link to brush up on your physiologic hypertrophy.


http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/cvphysiology/HF009.htm

As far as low blood pressure, most clinicians don't worry about it as long as they are asymptomatic. Bradycardia, not sure about but probably the same.


I'm not even in med school yet. That's just what I got from my 5 week long "residency" training/shadowing in cardiology. ;)
 
Both forms of hypertrophy can be bad for the heart. dilation of the chamber leads to a lower pumping force --> heart failure (eventually). concentric hypertrophy on the other hand will increase myocardial ischemia, because the coronary arterioles can't deliver blood as effectively over a longer distance. I was told by my profs. that athletes usually don't get much (concentric)hypertrophy of their heart.

You usually get it if the heart is pushing against a high afterload: aortic stenosis or hypertension, and you can get a dilated ventricle from a high preload, ie regurgitation or increase in circulating volume (as in compensation for heart failure)... I think

As for "bradycardia" I thought it was marker of being in good shape. remember a couple years ago the everyone was really impressed with the President, being an avid runner, having a resting HR of 48.

As for blood pressure there are so many things that contribute that I don't see how just exercise could have much of an influence. There are definite genetic factors contributing to BP. Also fluid loads, and hormone levels.

Being in good shape is relative, I feel like an athlete when I'm around my most of my classmates. But when I get into the gym... it's a different story.
 
I've been in a similiar bind to some of you; the one thing I know about cardiologists is that they don't know jack about BP, HR, exercise, diet. All they care about is pushing meds. If you want to go to an expert, find a guy that has the pathology; he can tell you up the ying yang about the disease/disorder/phenomenon.

Anyhow, there is no strong correlation between BP and athleticism. If you look at the general population, within a certain weight range, and age, and height, and compare them to athletes within a similiar range, you won't find a statistical difference in BP or HR. For example, my mom hardly exercises at all, isn't what I would consider athletic, and has a pretty low resting HR (55 bpm), but her BP is considered borderline 140/90. My sister is the same, except her BP is optimal 120/80 (she can barely run 3 miles without getting tired). I, on the other hand, have a wide ranging resting HR (i've seen it get to low 50s sometimes in the morning, but in the day, it's usually 72), high systolic BP (140-150/60), but I can run and swim and surf like no tommorrow. No matter how much exercise I do, and strict no sodium/low fat diet I follow (By the way, my cholesterols levels are phenomenal, my LDLs are a low 76, and my HDLs are an unusually high 67 -- cardiologist said he's never seen anything like that; also, lab panels came back very normal and good), my BP doesn't drop at all. I've come to the conclusion that some people just produce abnormally high amounts of renin and that there isn't anything that can be done. I take an ARB now and my BP goes down to 100/50 sometimes. Usually, it's below 120/80 now.

Anyhow, I think exercise does help to lower BP a little (a statistically significant 5 - 10 mm Hg in a sedentary person) in people of normal weight. Weight loss can affect BP HUGE in an overweight person. BP of 150 doesn't mean you're going to have a heart attack or stroke or kidney failure, it will just put you in statistically at a higher risk (just your chances of getting those will be higher, but not guaranteed). My father had high BP since 35 and he's 65 now with no health problems. He has had a full stress echocardiogram and no hypertrophies, myopathies, kidney disease, etc...

BTW, and as a side note, I do know alot of good athletes that have higher than normal or high BP. This one guy I know can run a 10k in under 38 minutes. That's averaging 6:15 miles for 6.2 miles :eek: and has a BP of 155.

And to answer that other guy's question about high systolic, and low diastolic, that typically means that your veins are in good shape and that blood flows easily throughout your vascular system between beats. High systolic means you either have CAD (coronary artery disease; for a young guy, that is HIGHLY unlikely), high cardiac output based on some pathology (most likely andergenic -- typically in african americans), vasoconstriction (based on angiotensin renin feedback system), or some underlying pathology like diabetes mellitus that may be causing water retention and higher blood volume. Anyhow, high systolic hammers your arteries and arterioles and should be reduced. Go see a doctor for meds.
 
g3pro said:
I'm not even in med school yet. That's just what I got from my 5 week long "residency" training/shadowing in cardiology. ;)


So why are you in the MD forum, posting like you know what you are talking about?


ps metoprolol doesn't prevent narrowing of coronary arteries, it is a B1 antagonist
 
Hosehead said:
g3pro said:
Remember, hypertrophy is related to insufficiency, not exercise. QUOTE]


g3pro, you must have been asleep during physiology lecture. Read this link to brush up on your physiologic hypertrophy.


http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/cvphysiology/HF009.htm

As far as low blood pressure, most clinicians don't worry about it as long as they are asymptomatic. Bradycardia, not sure about but probably the same.


Actually, physiologic hypertrophy due to exercise IS technically a pathological condition. Along with the "physiologic" hypertrophy, you get very pathologic cardiac ischemia. The hypertrophy develops as a compensatory mechanism to counter chronic systemic ischemia caused by the excessive exercise. The idea is that your body increases ejection fraction to increase the oxygen content of the average stroke, as oxygen demand exceeds supply. For this reason, professional marathon runners often present with the same chronic ischemia as you'd expect from 80y.o. men with PMH of MI. Read any of these articles if you don't believe me. You have to look at the high frequencies of the QRS complex to see it in some cases, but its there.

http://www.eng.tau.ac.il/~abboud/publications.html

Not trying to be a know-it-all, I just figure you could've been a little more tactful in the way you attempt to "educate" people.

HamOn
 
HamOnWholeWheat said:
Actually, physiologic hypertrophy due to exercise IS technically a pathological condition. Along with the "physiologic" hypertrophy, you get very pathologic cardiac ischemia. The hypertrophy develops as a compensatory mechanism to counter chronic systemic ischemia caused by the excessive exercise. The idea is that your body increases ejection fraction to increase the oxygen content of the average stroke, as oxygen demand exceeds supply. For this reason, professional marathon runners often present with the same chronic ischemia as you'd expect from 80y.o. men with PMH of MI. Read any of these articles if you don't believe me. You have to look at the high frequencies of the QRS complex to see it in some cases, but its there.

http://www.eng.tau.ac.il/~abboud/publications.html

Not trying to be a know-it-all, I just figure you could've been a little more tactful in the way you attempt to "educate" people.

HamOn

Goldarnit! Is running good for me or not? Have the approximately 30,000 miles I have run since I was fifteen been for nothing?

Somebody please clarify this because on my last EKG I had a little bit of LV hypertrophy which I was assured was normal for a runner.
 
AF_PedsBoy said:
By TOO much, therein lies the answer to the second question. YES, overweight slugs can drop their BP with exercise - the caveat being that it's only like 5 mm Hg and most slugs would rather just take a pill than watch what they eat and exercise - me included!
With exercise AND weight loss, you can definitely drop your BP more than 5 mmHg. I've seen it in patients.

Now, if you look at a cross-section, sure some athletes will have high BPs. But if those athletes stopped exercising and gained 50 lbs, their BP would be higher.

A little bit of LVH on an EKG doesn't mean anything in a healthy athlete. LVH with "strain" (ST/T abnormalities) is somthing to pay more attention to. Running is much better for you than sitting on a couch eating potato chips. Also, thinner people can have larger-looking voltages because there isn't all that fat in the way.
 
so basically no one really knows? any fellows out there that really do know by any chance?
 
kreno said:
so basically no one really knows? any fellows out there that really do know by any chance?

My god, some folks enjoy giving bad information. Ok, for you're initial question:

From: Exercise Physiology, Human Bioenergetics and Its Applications, 3rd edition. by Brooks et al. 2000

"Endurance training reduces resting and submaximal exercise systolic, diastolic, and mean arterial blood pressures. Diastolic and mean arterial BP are reduced at maximal exercise. Training has no effect on maximal systolic BP. However, weight loss, which may occur with endurance training, tends to reduce exercise blood pressure. The mechanism of reduced blood pressure at rest is not known..."

I hope this clarifies.
 
Panda Bear said:
Goldarnit! Is running good for me or not? Have the approximately 30,000 miles I have run since I was fifteen been for nothing?

Somebody please clarify this because on my last EKG I had a little bit of LV hypertrophy which I was assured was normal for a runner.


Before I give my opinion on this I just want to qualify that I'm only a 2nd year medical student, but I've been doing the early stages of research on high frequency QRS analysis of EKG's as part of a PhD program with NASA. I'm definitely no cardiologist, so take it with a grain of salt.

I know its a cliche, but everything in moderation. Running is absolutely better than lethargy. However, that's not to say that running 25 miles a day is better than running 10 miles a day. There's a lot of evidence out there suggesting that the chronic systemic hypoxia induced by excessively prolonged aerobic activity (we're talking about running a marathon every day here) can cause significant ischemia. The presence of ST segment abnormalities are a very LATE and TRANSIENT sign of cardiac damage. The vast majority of pts experiencing acute MI have no detectable ST-segment abnormalities at all, and they're in a full blown heart-attack. Don't quote me on this, but the last figure I read (in one of the Abboud articles I mentioned earlier) was that only 26% of acute infarct show ST-segment abnormalities, only to be later verified by the obligatory CK-MB, or Trop-I. ST segment abnormalities are usually temporal, and thus are not reliable for diagnosing ischemia or infarct.

So essentially, if I were a runner, and I frequently saw ST-segment abnormailities, I would certainly be concerned. Hypertrophy is a physiologic response to meet an increased demand. How is that "demand" manifested? Ischemia!

I definitely don't want to step on anyone's toes or anything. You just have to think a little about what causes hypertrophy, and then remember that "normal" physiologic hypertrophy from exercise does not imply "healthy".

HamOn
 
My BP was 145/90 during school, and 100/70 now that school's out for the summer. And I don't even think I'm that stressed! I don't know what would happen if I actually felt as stressed as some of my classmates seem.
 
Hey Panda Bear,

There is no way to make that determination based on an EKG. You COULD have left ventricular hypertrophy based on the voltage readings of the EKG, but they would have to make that confirmation with a echocardiogram using ultrasound. You could have a thin chest wall, and that could be the reason for your abnormal EKG, or you could have been nervous, or you could have been running around before your EKG was done. Anyhow, having an "athletic heart" as LVH is sometimes called isn't good. Having a big heart does not equal having an more efficient heart. Lance Armstrong has a heart 1/3 larger than the average man, but his left ventricle is also larger. In LVH, the pathology manifests itself in a smaller chamber. Essentially, the heart walls/muscle is bigger, making it more stronger, but the smaller chamber produces less volume of output per heart beat or stroke and becomes less efficient.
 
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