Can a hospital take away your contract PTO and not pay out?

[wholeheartedly]

@Throwawaydoc To clarify did they actually say both that they would not let you use PTO AND say that they wouldn’t roll it over

or did they say they wouldn’t let you use PTO and you read in the contract that you can’t roll over the PTO?

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[Throwawaydoc]

@Throwawaydoc To clarify did they actually say both that they would not let you use PTO AND say that they wouldn’t roll it over

or did they say they wouldn’t let you use PTO and you read in the contract that you can’t roll over the PTO?

Thank you for responding. They never said the would not pay out the PTO. Looking at contract, institutional manual, and program manual.

They just said PTO will be denied. The notice came from GME not Human Resources.

Contract says “Please refer to Program Training Manual for specifics of the policy.”

I then open Program Training Manual, it also is a cut an paste of our contract and states:

“Please refer to Program Training Manual for specifics of the policy.” I did, this is the program training manual and I need to know.

Other comment in the contract and manual both state:

Additional time off beyond what is allowed will be considered unpaid leave which could possibly extend training time.

So next year if I ask for unpaid time off I can technically have it without worrying about extending my training or get shoulder surgery and have time off for recovery that as long as I haven’t exceeded the ACGME regulations of time off for the X number of years of residency?

Max is 20 days a year I believe for X years. 4 year residency = 80 days max total missed, 5 year residency = 100 days max total missed, 6 year residency = 120 days max total missed ?

 

[Piebaldi]

Thank you for responding. They never said the would not pay out the PTO. Looking at contract, institutional manual, and program manual.

They just said PTO will be denied. The notice came from GME not Human Resources.

Contract says “Please refer to Program Training Manual for specifics.”

I then open Program Training Manual, it also is a cut an paste of our contract and states:

“Please refer to Program Training Manual for specifics.” I did, this is the program training manual and I need to know.

Other comment in the contract and manual both state:

“Time off beyond what is allowed is considered an unpaid leave which may extend the training time”.

So next year if I ask for unpaid time off I can technically have it without worrying about extending my training or get shoulder surgery and have time off for recovery that as long as I haven’t exceeded the ACGME regulations of time off for the X number of years of residency?

Max is 20 days a year I believe for X years. 4 year residency = 80 days max total missed, 5 year residency = 100 days max total missed, 6 year residency = 120 days max total missed ?

I think this is unclear - does this mean PTO will be denied for the time being? Inthe future? Forever? Until later? Clearly it wouldn't be unreasonable for themt o deny time off now given the issues with the pandemic. No as mentioned before I don't think they can just say sorry no PTO for you. I'm sure that will need to be discussed eventually. Probably not the best time to discuss now, but I'd say in maybe a month or so when things calm down, should definitely be addressed. Again I don't think they can just say no PTO period. That would have no basis.
Like aPD said his program is delaying vacations which is reasonable. And it would be reasonable if your program did the same. But there is no reason why they would just deny PTO.

 

[Throwawaydoc]

I think this is unclear - does this mean PTO will be denied for the time being? Inthe future? Forever? Until later? Clearly it wouldn't be unreasonable for themt o deny time off now given the issues with the pandemic. No as mentioned before I don't think they can just say sorry no PTO for you. I'm sure that will need to be discussed eventually. Probably not the best time to discuss now, but I'd say in maybe a month or so when things calm down, should definitely be addressed. Again I don't think they can just say no PTO period. That would have no basis.
Like aPD said his program is delaying vacations which is reasonable. And it would be reasonable if your program did the same. But there is no reason why they would just deny PTO.

Denied remainder of academic year per email.

 

[Piebaldi]

Denied remainder of academic year per email.

academic year as in end of june 2020? that's not unreasonable. i would hope and assume that they will add those days to future years. for those graduating i would hope that they will pay whoever is a graduating resident

 

[Throwawaydoc]

academic year as in end of june 2020? that's not unreasonable. i would hope and assume that they will add those days to future years. for those graduating i would hope that they will pay whoever is a graduating resident

Nothing was said. I can’t give too much details to maintain anonymity. My institution has a history of not paying for things.

I just want to make sure before I initiate these talks with the institution I know what I’m facing and if rolling those days over to next year is an option.

 

[Piebaldi]

Nothing was said. I can’t give too much details to maintain anonymity. My institution has a history of not paying for things.

I just want to make sure before I initiate these talks with the institution I know what I’m facing and if rolling those days over to next year is an option.

well obviously none of us can tell you specifically, but again i think it is reasonable to say hey residents wont have time off this year but dont think that they can just screw you like this. i would wait and not discuss now - things are still kind raw currently so it might come off as not so great. in a month or so as mentioned i would bridge the topic and say - hey! so how about them vacation days so we dont burn out? it's important for resident wellness! which it is. and also talk w ur fellow residents. dont be confrontational. discuss it calmly.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Thank you for responding. They never said the would not pay out the PTO. Looking at contract, institutional manual, and program manual.

They just said PTO will be denied. The notice came from GME not Human Resources.

Contract says “Please refer to Program Training Manual for specifics of the policy.”

I then open Program Training Manual, it also is a cut an paste of our contract and states:

“Please refer to Program Training Manual for specifics of the policy.” I did, this is the program training manual and I need to know.

Other comment in the contract and manual both state:

Additional time off beyond what is allowed will be considered unpaid leave which could possibly extend training time.

So next year if I ask for unpaid time off I can technically have it without worrying about extending my training or get shoulder surgery and have time off for recovery that as long as I haven’t exceeded the ACGME regulations of time off for the X number of years of residency?

Max is 20 days a year I believe for X years. 4 year residency = 80 days max total missed, 5 year residency = 100 days max total missed, 6 year residency = 120 days max total missed ?

Honestly, I think what you have here is a situation where they GME is trying to deal with keeping staff safe and available for pandemic response, so they canceled PTO for the immediate future. They’re probably up to their eyeballs in this situation and just haven’t communicated how they’re going to deal with the PTO situation on the backend yet. My guess is even if some policy says x, y, z it will probably be adjusted for this situation. I’m guessing they’ll either change to pay it out or let you roll it over.

I’d just try politely asking if under the circumstances you’ll be able to roll it over into next year. Doesn’t need to be a confrontational sort of thing.

Given the way things are going at my facility, they might be just trying to work out the details behind the scenes with HR and various different residency program requirements and get everything in line before they communicate the rest. That might take a bit.

 

[<L>]

That sounds like an emergency "All hands on deck!"- type proclamation that may have been made without thinking things through completely.

Unrelated to the vacation issue this seems like something that's rather common. My employer tried to mandate that all of our outpatient providers come into work to run their newly-established telehealth clinics from their regular offices in case of "emergency" for "mobilization" if needed. Now of course they couldn't say what type of emergency would require this or what type of mobilization this would require given that everyone in the entire metro area is now only a 20 minute drive from work because the highways are empty. Thankfully some departments pushed back. Others didn't.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Unrelated to the vacation issue this seems like something that's rather common. My employer tried to mandate that all of our outpatient providers come into work to run their newly-established telehealth clinics from their regular offices in case of "emergency" for "mobilization" if needed. Now of course they couldn't say what type of emergency would require this or what type of mobilization this would require given that everyone in the entire metro area is now only a 20 minute drive from work because the highways are empty. Thankfully some departments pushed back. Others didn't.

Weird. My goal as infection preventionist is to get as many people out of the building who don’t absolutely need to be there.

 

[Mass Effect]

Unrelated to the vacation issue this seems like something that's rather common. My employer tried to mandate that all of our outpatient providers come into work to run their newly-established telehealth clinics from their regular offices in case of "emergency" for "mobilization" if needed. Now of course they couldn't say what type of emergency would require this or what type of mobilization this would require given that everyone in the entire metro area is now only a 20 minute drive from work because the highways are empty. Thankfully some departments pushed back. Others didn't.

This is pretty crazy. So if one provider is Covid positive but asymptomatic, that one provider will infect the other 20 providers in the office. And now you've got 20 people out and unable to help in case of that "emergency" that requires "mobilization."

Glad there was pushback on that nonsense.

 

[<L>]

This is pretty crazy. So if one provider is Covid positive but asymptomatic, that one provider will infect the other 20 providers in the office. And now you've got 20 people out and unable to help in case of that "emergency" that requires "mobilization."

Glad there was pushback on that nonsense.

They're starting to talk about "returning to normal" with outpatient clinics "Depending on what the governor decides with our stay at home order", but COVID hospitalizations are still rising in my metro area and I'm just sitting in my home office expecting this to run until June.