Can a Non-Athletic, Nerd Go Into Ortho?

[Brathmore]

My initial impression of ortho was that you had to be athletic/in-shape and non-nerdy to go into it. A couple of spine surgeons I know, however, told me not to worry...that all that was in the past...that it's about merit.

Then I start reading these forums and talking to residents in other specialties, and hear about how ortho is a very "frat-boy" type atmosphere, and that you're basically screwed if on your away rotations everybody doesn't love you. In other words, "fitting in" sounds crucial, and if the culture is really frat-boy or athlete driven, then I tend to think frat-boys and athletes will want to pick future residents just like themselves over people not like them. In other words, given two candidates with equal intelligence and work ethic, why would a bunch of athletes or "frat-boy" type people want to choose someone unlike them rather than someone just like them?

I'm definitely not the frat-boy type, not athletic, nerdy, a little overweight, and to make it even worse, a faithful husband with kids. And I love bones and ortho! But I don't want to roll the dice and not match simply because I'm not the stereotypical ortho dude.

Again, some people (even an ortho chairman) have told me it's not important (but they essentially have to if they want to avoid a lawsuit). Yet the same ortho chairman admitted that everybody in his program had an athletic background.

Are these concerns valid (please be honest)? To make it more concrete, can you tell me about programs where a decent fraction of the residents don't fit the "ortho profile"?

Anything you can do to allay these concerns would be appreciated, because I'm about to cross off ortho simply because I'm convinced I wouldn't match without fitting the right profile.

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[skiz knot]

...and to make it even worse, a faithful husband with kids.

Really? You think we all cheat on our spouses because we are "frat boys" and "athletes"?

Any program/field of medicine that has the ability to be highly selective in choosing their residents will seek out people similar to themselves, to a certain degree. We will want to work along side people with similar attributes, as all programs have extremely qualified applicants. That does NOT mean, however, that we are all "frat boys" or former athletes. Yes, many are, but most are not former Div 1 athletes or getting "rocked" every weekend after getting their fake tanning session done. Ortho tends to attract laid-back, down-to-earth people that are easy to get along with. If you show that you aren't socially awkward (or can fake it during interviews) and are likeable, you will have as good a shot as anybody.

Good luck.

 

[DHT]

Don't worry about it. If you are a well adjusted, hard working, easy to get along with individual, you will not have any problems matching ortho based on your personality. Don't worry too much about the other stereotype because I feel like it is quickly fading.

Every program has a unique feel and you will see that on the interview trail. One of the most important parts of the interview process is to find programs where you feel like you would fit in the best. There are plenty of programs that are full of faithful, married with children residents. There are others full of single frat boys. Just pay attention during the pre-interview dinners and you will get a good sense of the makeup of each program.

The vast majority of programs are full of laid back easy to get along with residents. You won't have any problems finding a program where you'll fit in. Don't let a perceived stereotype keep you from doing something you'll love.

 

[Brathmore]

Skiz Knot,

Whoa...let's not get carried away ("Really? You think we all cheat on our spouses because we are 'frat boys' and 'athletes'?") and misconstrue what I said. I was asking if the comments that I HEARD FROM OTHERS ("frat boys," "athletes" and implicitly, single males on the prowl) were actually true. Not accusing you or anyone else of cheating on their spouses. Forget that I ever said I was "faithful" if that will calm everybody down.

Second, can anyone name specific programs that consistently defy the stereotype? It'll save all of us a lot of traveling and phone calls if you could just point people like me to specific programs and say "XYZ program isn't like the stereotype at all" etc.

Likewise, if you know of programs that, sitting here in 2011, really ARE like the stereotype, pray tell so I don't waste time applying there.

 

[DreamingTheLive]

My initial impression of ortho was that you had to be athletic/in-shape and non-nerdy to go into it. A couple of spine surgeons I know, however, told me not to worry...that all that was in the past...that it's about merit.

Then I start reading these forums and talking to residents in other specialties, and hear about how ortho is a very "frat-boy" type atmosphere, and that you're basically screwed if on your away rotations everybody doesn't love you. In other words, "fitting in" sounds crucial, and if the culture is really frat-boy or athlete driven, then I tend to think frat-boys and athletes will want to pick future residents just like themselves over people not like them. In other words, given two candidates with equal intelligence and work ethic, why would a bunch of athletes or "frat-boy" type people want to choose someone unlike them rather than someone just like them?

I'm definitely not the frat-boy type, not athletic, nerdy, a little overweight, and to make it even worse, a faithful husband with kids. And I love bones and ortho! But I don't want to roll the dice and not match simply because I'm not the stereotypical ortho dude.

Again, some people (even an ortho chairman) have told me it's not important (but they essentially have to if they want to avoid a lawsuit). Yet the same ortho chairman admitted that everybody in his program had an athletic background.

Are these concerns valid (please be honest)? To make it more concrete, can you tell me about programs where a decent fraction of the residents don't fit the "ortho profile"?

Anything you can do to allay these concerns would be appreciated, because I'm about to cross off ortho simply because I'm convinced I wouldn't match without fitting the right profile.

So you've decided on Ortho??? (only unclear b/c you've started 3 Uro vs. Ortho vs. ENT threads in each their respective forums in the last couple days)

If so, go for it. I mean, really? Oh, but you should probably find out what ortho docs like to eat so when they steal your lunch from you everyday they'll be satisfied and nobody will get beat-up behind the jungle gym.

Kidding.

 

[Butler]

I'm definitely not the frat-boy type, not athletic, nerdy, a little overweight, and to make it even worse, a faithful husband with kids. And I love bones and ortho! But I don't want to roll the dice and not match simply because I'm not the stereotypical ortho dude.

You know it is not too late to put down the donuts and hit the gym. That way you can at least put up a fight when all those big bad cheating frat boys beat you up and try to steal your lunch . Any residents feel free to go to town on me if I am wrong, but I think a particular residency program's vibe or personality is really a reflection of the residents in it. Just like different medical classes in the same school may have different temperaments or attitude, it is dependent on the people in the class, not the school itself.

(Also, that was comedy above. Don't take it too seriously .)

 

[Jack is Back]

Can a Non-Athletic, Nerd Go Into Ortho?

Nope.

 

[Brathmore]

Nope.

Just so everybody's clear on this:

"Jack is Back" is an MS2 whose 440 posts over the past few months include cute comments on things like ATM fees, politics, and step 1 question guides.

"Butler" is a medical student who doesn't know what kind of surgery he wants to go into (look at his recent posts).

"DreamingTheLive" is a med student who wants to be a GI doctor (look at his recent posts), but is unsure if he can make it.

Give these uninformed opinions their due weight. Also, no more jokes about stealing lunch money.

 

[DreamingTheLive]

Just so everybody's clear on this:

"Jack is Back" is an MS2 whose 440 posts over the past few months include cute comments on things like ATM fees, politics, and step 1 question guides.

"Butler" is a medical student who doesn't know what kind of surgery he wants to go into (look at his recent posts).

"DreamingTheLive" is a med student who wants to be a GI doctor (look at his recent posts), but is unsure if he can make it.

Give these uninformed opinions their due weight. Also, no more jokes about stealing lunch money, ok? I mean, they were so funny I've already gotten a hernia from laughing so hard, and I don't know if I could take much more without exacerbating my incontinence...

Lmao. Whoah kid. No need to get your panties in a bunch, if you can't handle people poking a bit of fun at your post then you definitely don't have the thick skin required to be an ortho doc. Pretty sure everyone's posts were tongue in cheek. I don't really understand what you were trying to accomplish with your "smear campaign" of some posters. Yup, I think GI is pretty cool, I have great stats, but nothing in life is guaranteed, stay humble and stay thirsty my friend. Then again, I'm on surgery right now and they do some pretty gnarly things too....and I'm an ex-jock...and I'm a sucker for PB&J's (with Almond Butter)...thanks in advance.

 

[Butler]

Just so everybody's clear on this:

"Jack is Back" is an MS2 whose 440 posts over the past few months include cute comments on things like ATM fees, politics, and step 1 question guides.

"Butler" is a medical student who doesn't know what kind of surgery he wants to go into (look at his recent posts).

"DreamingTheLive" is a med student who wants to be a GI doctor (look at his recent posts), but is unsure if he can make it.

Give these uninformed opinions their due weight. Also, no more jokes about stealing lunch money, ok? I mean, they were so funny I've already gotten a hernia from laughing so hard, and I don't know if I could take much more without exacerbating my incontinence...

You might want to worry about getting into and through medical school before you concern yourself with what specialty you want to practice. Because someone needs to take a chill pill before he starts smearing randos on an internet forum like a wannabe Rambo. Your actions don't match up with your words mate. You say your love Ortho but then go on fishing expeditions on the other surgical subspecialty forums; ex http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=867392 and http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=11781070#post11781070 (we can use the see previous post tab too ) . Little hypocritical don't you think? And a comment on your tact, it is not a good idea to start stereotyping a whole specialty, with what some might consider borderline insulting descriptions, when you are asking for advice from those that are members of it.

It is time to thicken up that skin a bit and show some refinement. You're playing with the big boys now. With the lack of a similar post in the Gen Surg forum, some might get the impression that you are in it for the money and prestige rather than any true love of surgery. "Don't do surgery if you can imagine yourself being happy doing anything else" is frequently said by surgeons on this forum. Go into it for the wrong reasons and you will be miserable no matter what the call schedule is. But hell, what do I know? I am just a lowly medical student who doesn't know what kinda surgery I want to go into.

 

[ddmo]

You don't have to be athletic at all. You do need to be hard working, thick skinned, and enjoyable to be around.

Based on the types of threads you are starting and your responses above I would be a little concerned that you might not fit those criteria. That being said, there are always exceptions.

 

[Brathmore]

Could anyone name specific programs that consistently defy the ortho stereotypes that I've heard about (& referenced above)?

Likewise, could anyone identify programs that, sitting here in 2011, really ARE like the stereotype?

I think this would be very informative, not only for me, but for readers of this thread. Thanks.

 

[skiz knot]

Could anyone name specific programs that consistently defy the ortho stereotypes that I've heard about (& referenced above)?

Likewise, could anyone identify programs that, sitting here in 2011, really ARE like the stereotype?

I think this would be very informative, not only for me, but for readers of this thread. Thanks.

Who is going to report their program is full of "Meatheads"?

Almost all programs have a variety of personalities. There are a disproportionate number of "Jocks" because they are the type of people that would typically be interested in the field of orthopaedics. It is not a requisite feature of an application. I can not imagine adcoms going through an application and throwing it out because the person wasn't a high level athlete. Your application will get looked at because you were thought to be a highly qualified, interesting applicant.

 

[Brathmore]

Who is going to report their program is full of "Meatheads"?

Almost all programs have a variety of personalities. There are a disproportionate number of "Jocks" because they are the type of people that would typically be interested in the field of orthopaedics. It is not a requisite feature of an application. I can not imagine adcoms going through an application and throwing it out because the person wasn't a high level athlete. Your application will get looked at because you were thought to be a highly qualified, interesting applicant.

Skiz Knot,

The reason my question is relevant is because I understand that in ortho, considerable importance is placed on the away rotation and, of course, the interview. Both are tremendously subjective. If you do an away rotation at a place full of "Meatheads" (your words, not mine), you can almost bet that they're going to give better marks to another "meathead" than to, say, a non-meathead who talks about non-meathead stuff (who knows what this would be - chess? art? ballet? whatever you want). Of course, the "meatheads" will never say that they chose someone because they were another meathead--they'll say things like "So and so works really hard..." or "so and so has a really great personality." But when you get down to it, those assessments are influenced in some manner by just liking the kind of person they were dealing with--one of their own.

You're probably right that people will be reluctant to say their program is full of "meatheads," but I see no reason why people can't speak up about their program if it's emphatically not full of those types of people.

Yes, yes, yes...we all know that every ortho program selects a "wide variety" of people (wink, wink). But maybe a few people can raise their hand and direct special attention to programs they know about (perhaps where they did an away, where they interviewed, or where they're at), and talk about how that place does defy the "stereotype" that most certainly exists about ortho. For example, as DHT said in the comments above, "There are plenty of programs that are full of faithful, married with children residents. There are others full of single frat boys." That's a great start - can anyone add to this by naming specific places that would fit in each category?

You see, the stereotype isn't going to go away unless people provide some level of concrete evidence that the stereotype isn't actually true, and with respect to such evidence, the more the better. Finally, if anyone feels like this is just too sensitive a topic to discuss in an anonymous forum, just send me a private message

 

[ddmo]

Finally, if anyone feels like this is just too sensitive a topic to discuss in an anonymous forum, just send me a private message

You are the one that appears to be a sensitive, delicate soul, unable to tolerate the bullying and oppression of the "Jocks."

While I could care less if someone likes sci-fi or is married, I do get irritated that a person would write paragraphs on how they want to find a more "non-athletic" friendly program, and then want specifics.

This whiny, poor me, can't we all get along attitude is the antithesis of what I look for in a colleague.

I don't think you would fit in. Perhaps urology, ENT, or whatever would be better for you.

 

[DHT]

Skiz Knot,

The reason my question is relevant is because I understand that in ortho, considerable importance is placed on the away rotation and, of course, the interview. Both are tremendously subjective. If you do an away rotation at a place full of "Meatheads" (your words, not mine), you can almost bet that they're going to give better marks to another "meathead" than to, say, a non-meathead who talks about non-meathead stuff (who knows what this would be - chess? art? ballet? whatever you want). Of course, the "meatheads" will never say that they chose someone because they were another meathead--they'll say things like "So and so works really hard..." or "so and so has a really great personality." But when you get down to it, those assessments are influenced in some manner by just liking the kind of person they were dealing with--one of their own.

You're probably right that people will be reluctant to say their program is full of "meatheads," but I see no reason why people can't speak up about their program if it's emphatically not full of those types of people.

Yes, yes, yes...we all know that every ortho program selects a "wide variety" of people (wink, wink). But maybe a few people can raise their hand and direct special attention to programs they know about (perhaps where they did an away, where they interviewed, or where they're at), and talk about how that place does defy the "stereotype" that most certainly exists about ortho. For example, as DHT said in the comments above, "There are plenty of programs that are full of faithful, married with children residents. There are others full of single frat boys." That's a great start - can anyone add to this by naming specific places that would fit in each category?

You see, the stereotype isn't going to go away unless people provide some level of concrete evidence that the stereotype isn't actually true, and with respect to such evidence, the more the better. Finally, if anyone feels like this is just too sensitive a topic to discuss in an anonymous forum, just send me a private message

Let me help you get your priorities straight:

Do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT pick a specialty based on your perceptions of residency. Residency is temporary suffering for any surgical specialty that only lasts 5-7 years. You have the rest of your life to think about. You have to do something you actually love doing or your will look back on your life and regret not having bigger balls and just doing it. You have 30-40 years to commit to your specialty, don't let 5 years of perceived pain make your decision.

When you are an attending, you can be as dorky as you want, and everyone around you has to like it. You can have debates with yourself about who is better, Capt. Picard or Capt. Kirk. You can reflect on how awesome Battlestar Galactica was. You can talk about how kickass the last episode of Glee was. IT DOESN"T MATTER. What will matter is if you are miserable grinding out CT scans all day when you would much rather be fixing bones.

The reason you aren't getting responses about "meathead" programs is that no one wants to call out other programs. I for one wouldn't want someone talking trash about my program, so I won't talk trash either. I won't bother to mention the programs full of lots of different types of people because it's MOST of them. By the time you actually apply to residency, an entire class will have come and gone, so nothing you hear today would matter at all. You'll have to figure it out like the rest of us did: go on lots of interviews and figure out where you fit in the best.

My advice to you is to stop worrying about fitting in. Figure out what you want to spend THE REST OF YOUR LIFE DOING. Trust me, you'll manage wherever you end up. Even if you don't make a single friend in residency, in the end you'll still be an orthopaedic surgeon.

 

[Wozo30]

To be honest if you are that concerned about not being able to fit in with residents around you in what you have stated is a discipline that is stereotyped to be full of athletes and frat boys. Perhaps there are a lot of past athletes or even at the least sports fans, and maybe a "typical" ortho resident's idea of a good time involves beer pong and hot wings and not a gin gimlet and the opera. But honestly, I am sure there are plenty of contraries to the stereotype in each program. To find one that is all "nerds" is improbable, but I strongly believe it would be just as improbable to find a "Jersey Shore" residency as well. But honestly try to be more malleable and rather than searching for a residency that fits all of your traits, expand yourself to find ways that your personality can fit into a residency.

DHT has some good advice also: "My advice to you is to stop worrying about fitting in. Figure out what you want to spend THE REST OF YOUR LIFE DOING. Trust me, you'll manage wherever you end up. Even if you don't make a single friend in residency, in the end you'll still be an orthopaedic surgeon."

 

[SlickNickMD]

Does Ortho have a combine as part of their evaluation process? I used to run a 4.4 40 before I became a sloppy med student maybe I can get back in the gym during my next, less demanding rotation

 

[ddmo]

Does Ortho have a combine as part of their evaluation process? I used to run a 4.4 40 before I became a sloppy med student maybe I can get back in the gym during my next, less demanding rotation

Yes. Board scores + Max Bench > 450

 

[DHT]

Yes. Board scores + Max Bench > 450

Those were 2009 stats. I believe its up to 460 now.

Keep in mind that this is the AVERAGE, you'll need at least a 500 to match at a top tier program.

 

[mtwop]

You make yourself sound like a big wuss (can't say the other word). I would steer clear of anything surgical if I were as sensitive as you. Just because you are a dork doesn't mean you are any more intellectually stimulating. Ortho docs aren't as dumb as they're cracked up to me. Ever worked a real job before med school? Rich kids don't deal well with anything but praise. If this is you.......think about family med-they are "nice"

 

[SlickNickMD]

You make yourself sound like a big wuss (can't say the other word). I would steer clear of anything surgical if I were as sensitive as you. Just because you are a dork doesn't mean you are any more intellectually stimulating. Ortho docs aren't as dumb as they're cracked up to me. Ever worked a real job before med school? Rich kids don't deal well with anything but praise. If this is you.......think about family med-they are "nice"

Who says ortho docs are dumb? The average board scores and grades say otherwise

 

[mtwop]

Cracked up to be* ..........definitely not saying they're dumb if you read the context. Avg of 240 is just ridiculous.....here's to hoping

Who says ortho docs are dumb? The average board scores and grades say otherwise

 

[Jack is Back]

Skiz Knot,

The reason my question is relevant is because I understand that in ortho, considerable importance is placed on the away rotation and, of course, the interview. Both are tremendously subjective. If you do an away rotation at a place full of "Meatheads" (your words, not mine), you can almost bet that they're going to give better marks to another "meathead" than to, say, a non-meathead who talks about non-meathead stuff (who knows what this would be - chess? art? ballet? whatever you want). Of course, the "meatheads" will never say that they chose someone because they were another meathead--they'll say things like "So and so works really hard..." or "so and so has a really great personality." But when you get down to it, those assessments are influenced in some manner by just liking the kind of person they were dealing with--one of their own.

You're probably right that people will be reluctant to say their program is full of "meatheads," but I see no reason why people can't speak up about their program if it's emphatically not full of those types of people.

Yes, yes, yes...we all know that every ortho program selects a "wide variety" of people (wink, wink). But maybe a few people can raise their hand and direct special attention to programs they know about (perhaps where they did an away, where they interviewed, or where they're at), and talk about how that place does defy the "stereotype" that most certainly exists about ortho. For example, as DHT said in the comments above, "There are plenty of programs that are full of faithful, married with children residents. There are others full of single frat boys." That's a great start - can anyone add to this by naming specific places that would fit in each category?

You see, the stereotype isn't going to go away unless people provide some level of concrete evidence that the stereotype isn't actually true, and with respect to such evidence, the more the better. Finally, if anyone feels like this is just too sensitive a topic to discuss in an anonymous forum, just send me a private message

Just look at the resident pictures on each website, duh.

 

[45408]

Just look at the resident pictures on each website, duh.

Way too obvious.

 

[Untraditional]

http://www.pittsburghmagazine.com/Pittsburgh-Magazine/May-2011/A-Day-in-the-Life-of-Dr-Freddie-Fu/


5'3
Has a funny accent and girl hands
Wears $350 jeans
World-class Ortho Baller

 

[SLUser11]

http://www.pittsburghmagazine.com/Pittsburgh-Magazine/May-2011/A-Day-in-the-Life-of-Dr-Freddie-Fu/


5'3
Has a funny accent and girl hands
Wears $350 jeans
World-class Ortho Baller

I didn't see any OR time in his schedule....

 

[Untraditional]

I didn't see any OR time in his schedule....

He's Freddie Fu, man. The OR schedules its time for HIM.

 

[Jack is Back]

He's Freddie Fu, man. The OR schedules its time for HIM.

HE looks nerdy.

 

[OGofMedicine]

Do what you want.
It's your life.
Don't let anyone or a stereotype, keep you from your passion.
I sure as hell won't, and I'm pretty sure that you would want to give your kids this same message.

PS: I'm just starting my undergrad in the spring, so in no way am I a know it all... but it's common sense that you can only live your life. You only get one shot at it. At the end of the day.... DO YOU!

 

[PharmaTope]

i think this would be a good time to look at yourself and start doing ATG squats until you puke.

i would not want to see any ortho doc who didn't lift weights. i also wouldnt take health advice from an overweight family or IM doc.

squats, deadlifts, benchpress. get to it