Can someone break down the extracurricular activity requirements for me?

[comura]

I'm a nontraditional student who recently decided to pursue medicine. I am completely new to requirements and want to find out what exactly is expected outside of my MCAT score and academics. This information will help me gauge and pace my scheduling (such as when to take the MCAT so it doesn't expire and determine when my application is ready).

Upon searching recent and older threads about this topic, there seems to be differing information compared to just a few years ago. Some examples below -

- Minimum recommended hours of clinical vs non-clinical seems to have changed. 100 - 150+ was acceptable a few years ago, but now there's a push for 250+ for each category. The difference appears to be between applying after one year vs 2 years.

- As an animal lover, I have been volunteering my time at an animal shelter for the past 10 years. Just a few years ago, volunteering at a humane society appeared to be an acceptable form of non-clinical volunteering. Over the past year or two, I've sensed that there is a push for a more specific type volunteering (helping underserved populations), and less about just giving one's time to something one enjoys doing. Is volunteering at an animal shelter no longer acceptable?

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Overall, can someone break down what exactly is acceptable (both duties and amount of hours) and what is not for the upcoming and future app cycles?

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[Mr.Smile12]

I'm a nontraditional student who recently decided to pursue medicine. I am completely new to requirements and want to find out what exactly is expected outside of my MCAT score and academics. This information will help me gauge and pace my scheduling (such as when to take the MCAT so it doesn't expire and determine when my application is ready).

Upon searching recent and older threads about this topic, there seems to be differing information compared to just a few years ago. Some examples below -

- Minimum recommended hours of clinical vs non-clinical seems to have changed. 100 - 150+ was acceptable a few years ago, but now there's a push for 250+ for each category. The difference appears to be between applying after one year vs 2 years.

- As an animal lover, I have been volunteering my time at an animal shelter for the past 10 years. Just a few years ago, volunteering at a humane society appeared to be an acceptable form of non-clinical volunteering. Over the past year or two, I've sensed that there is a push for a more specific type volunteering (helping underserved populations), and less about just giving one's time to something one enjoys doing. Is volunteering at an animal shelter no longer acceptable?

--------------------------------------------

Overall, can someone break down what exactly is acceptable (both duties and amount of hours) and what is not for the upcoming and future app cycles?

Welcome to the forums.

Clarifying: 150 hours for non-clinical and total clinical (which would include 50 shadowing) is generally the threshold to avoid having your application screened out. This reflects the numbers reported within the entire application pool, and that minimum basically takes care of a significant number of applications for subsequent screening.

To run with the "big dogs" (aka "brand schools," the 50 so-called "T20" schools, Ivy+), you need more hours. At least 250-300 is recommended to stay in the pack. Some service oriented schools' applicant pools claim more hours (750+) in their community service/service orientation experiences.

Read the definitions of the preprofessional competencies regarding your animal shelter work. It's not just about simple altruism to address various community needs.

Charting Your Purpose by Writing Your Professional Oath - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

How to Assess Your Pre-Professional Competencies - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[KaiBuzz]

The Univ of Utah SOM includes their recommended ECs in the Activity Recommendations section of this document:

MD Application Requirements

medicine.utah.edu

The Univ of Utah Pre-Health Advising office offers these recommendations:

General Preparation - Preprofessional - Academic Advising Center - The University of Utah

advising.utah.edu

I believe these guidelines apply to most medical schools.

 

[comura]

Sorry for clogging the forum with one of these questions. Just trying to make sure I'm getting the right experiences.

Would food delivery to hospice patients be considered clinical or non-clinical? If non-clinical, is this the type of non-clinical volunteering that is acceptable by adcoms?

 

[LunaOri]

Non-clinical. Acceptable.

 

[ablanco]

I would imagine the animal volunteering is a nice addition to your application and shares a unique passion of yours. Would likely come up in an interview as a point of conversation. I would err on also having non-clinical volunteering that directly impacts humans as that fits more the mission of schools.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

It's fine.

Charting Your Purpose by Writing Your Professional Oath - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

How to Assess Your Pre-Professional Competencies - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[chilly_md]

Sorry for clogging the forum with one of these questions. Just trying to make sure I'm getting the right experiences.

Would food delivery to hospice patients be considered clinical or non-clinical? If non-clinical, is this the type of non-clinical volunteering that is acceptable by adcoms?

I have merged your threads for these kinds of questions. In general, someone likely has previously posted about a certain activity or other common question, and you can utilize the search feature to look for those past threads.

 

[comura]

I have merged your threads for these kinds of questions. In general, someone likely has previously posted about a certain activity or other common question, and you can utilize the search feature to look for those past threads.

Thanks. The issue with some of the past threads, as I have pointed out in my initial thread, is the info can be 'outdated.'

 

[chilly_md]

Thanks. The issue with some of the past threads, as I have pointed out in my initial thread, is the info can be 'outdated.'

Advice in WAMC from the last few years will be accurate, especially from verified accounts. Things did not change drastically that fast.

 

[Hollow Knight]

MANDATORY: Shadowing at least 100 hours, ideally with a primary care physician at some point. Clinical experience (idk about hours). Volunteering experience (don't freak out about hours, but do it longitudinally).

Sort of optional if you know you don't want T20s: research. Get a poster, abstract, anything to get published. Clinical research is easier than basic science.

Optional: leadership, bringing water to a village somewhere, starting a nonprofit, etc. Do what you like.

I personally think obsessing over hours is a bit silly. Yeah, you want more than like 20, but if you just build it into your schedule and do like a couple hours a week for a couple of years you'll have enough.

 

[LindaAccepted]

MANDATORY: Shadowing at least 100 hours, ideally with a primary care physician at some point. Clinical experience (idk about hours). Volunteering experience (don't freak out about hours, but do it longitudinally).

Sort of optional if you know you don't want T20s: research. Get a poster, abstract, anything to get published. Clinical research is easier than basic science.

Optional: leadership, bringing water to a village somewhere, starting a nonprofit, etc. Do what you like.

I personally think obsessing over hours is a bit silly. Yeah, you want more than like 20, but if you just build it into your schedule and do like a couple hours a week for a couple of years you'll have enough.

Shadowing is not something that all schools require or even value. I spoke today for our podcast to Dr. Mike Woodson of Tulane Medical and asked him about shadowing. They don't require it all. I've seen 40-50 hours of shadowing recommended by schools that do want to see it, but not all schools want it. I'm not saying that there isn't one school out there that may like to see 100 hours, but most don't and they do want to see something like EMT, scribing, medical assistant or volunteering or something where the applicant is actually doing something other than watching.

If you do shadowing, shadowing someone in primary care interacting with patients is ideal.

Dr. Woodson's concerns about shadowing were 1) not every med school applicant has the connections and relationships to be able to shadow a doctor. 2) Shadowing is passive. He wasn't opposed to shadowing, but he clearly would have preferred do see participatory activity in a clinical setting along with shadowing if someone has it.

And he's not the only admissions director with that view.

 

[gyngyn]

MANDATORY: Shadowing at least 100 hours, ideally with a primary care physician at some point. Clinical experience (idk about hours). Volunteering experience (don't freak out about hours, but do it longitudinally).

Sort of optional if you know you don't want T20s: research. Get a poster, abstract, anything to get published. Clinical research is easier than basic science.

Optional: leadership, bringing water to a village somewhere, starting a nonprofit, etc. Do what you like.

I personally think obsessing over hours is a bit silly. Yeah, you want more than like 20, but if you just build it into your schedule and do like a couple hours a week for a couple of years you'll have enough.

100 hours is way more than needed! If you want to do an extra 50-60 hours, that's fine.
Some activities or experiences can be a proxy for shadowing, as well.
You are right that we want make sure you have primary care experience, though.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Shadowing is not something that all schools require or even value. I spoke today for our podcast to Dr. Mike Woodson of Tulane Medical and asked him about shadowing. They don't require it all. I've seen 40-50 hours of shadowing recommended by schools that do want to see it, but not all schools want it. I'm not saying that there isn't one school out there that may like to see 100 hours, but most don't and they do want to see something like EMT, scribing, medical assistant or volunteering or something where the applicant is actually doing something other than watching.

If you do shadowing, shadowing someone in primary care interacting with patients is ideal.

Dr. Woodson's concerns about shadowing were 1) not every med school applicant has the connections and relationships to be able to shadow a doctor. 2) Shadowing is passive. He wasn't opposed to shadowing, but he clearly would have preferred do see participatory activity in a clinical setting along with shadowing if someone has it.

And he's not the only admissions director with that view.

FWIW I'll take a little issue because Tulane's MSAR needs to be updated (accessed 3/20/2024).

Tulane does say they recommend but not required. 80% of their matriculating classes consistently have some shadowing. This is the challenge of "trust what I say" versus "trust the data."

NB: their MSAR profile also says they do not require SJT's when they have required Casper for a few years now. Yes, I know how difficult it is updating your own program's MSAR profile and website, but it hopefully will be done by the end of the month knowing that prospective applicants have been accessing MSAR since January.

 

[LindaAccepted]

FWIW I'll take a little issue because Tulane's MSAR needs to be updated (accessed 3/20/2024).

Tulane does say they recommend but not required. 80% of their matriculating classes consistently have some shadowing. This is the challenge of "trust what I say" versus "trust the data."

NB: their MSAR profile also says they do not require SJT's when they have required Casper for a few years now. Yes, I know how difficult it is updating your own program's MSAR profile and website, but it hopefully will be done by the end of the month knowing that prospective applicants have been accessing MSAR since January.

Thanks @Mr.Smile12 I can't link to the IV because it hasn't been posted yet (it should be up in about 2 weeks) , but he really was clear that Tulane does NOT require shadowing. Furthermore he describes it as a "privileged" activity that not everyone has access to. Therefore Tulane doesn't want to require it. In the past I've also interviewed other adcom who said the same thing.

You're certainly right that Tulane needs to update its MSAR listing.

Regarding the SJT, their web site says applicants are "encouraged" to take the CASPER. In the interview Dr. Woodson said they are using it not so much for evaluative purposes but to see if they will want to require it in the future.

Regarding the 80% of Tulane accepted applicants have shadowing, that could be because so many applicants who are otherwise qualified also do shadowing. And 20% were admitted without shadowing, probably because they had scribing or other valued clinical exposure. Again, if 20% were admitted without it, it's not required.

I'd also like to quote the podcast interview with Dr. Sunny Nakae, Senior Associate Dean at CUSM, author or premed Prep: Advice for a Medical School Admissions Dean, and formerly at Northwestern Feinberg and Loyola Stritch, said "Again, I want to focus on the learning that shadowing is supposed to get. You can get exposure to health professions, to medicine, via these other means. Some people get it through taking care of someone in their own family, growing up with a person with a chronic illness, or a sibling that has a disability. Again, what kind of insights have you gained from those experiences? I think it’s helpful to be able to shadow and get in there, but plenty of people have gotten into medical school not doing that."

Finally, I am NOT opposed to shadowing. It is an excellent place to start exploring clinical medicine. My main points are:

1. Not all schools require it.
2. 100 hours as a minimum is excessive at most schools that do require it. Some of those hours could be better spent in participatory clinical activities.
3. Some medical schools and application readers value more participatory clinical exposure than shadowing. And it is never "enough" on its own.

Best,
Linda