Can someone explain to me....

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Advertising machines: I don't know about where you live, but the newspapers around me are full of ads for hospitals, physician groups, all manner of surgical groups, etc. Who's on the billboards? Not chiros but hospitals and other medical groups. Who has the really nice shiny full color direct mail adverts? Around here it's the medical folks. Do chiros advertise? Of course. Did you exaggerate? Yes.

Only do manipulation: Manipulation is a major treatment method in chiropractic, obviously. But to say DCs "only do manipulation" strongly suggests lack of experience/insight on your part.

Treating autism and GI problems: some DCs get more involved with the diet/nutritional end of things. As such, it makes sense that some DCs help some GI patients. Autism is more of an unknown, but there's no doubt that some autistic kids benefit from dietary changes.

I'm not defending 100% of chiros because I know (believe me, I know) there are some that can be off-the-wall. But, as I said earlier, sweeping generalizations only suggest you don't have a good handle on what chiropractors do.
You accuse me about generalizations, yet you go about your own experience and generalizing what you say you see on newspapers and ads in your area. I don't believe I have exaggerated at all. Here are the course curriculum for 2 chiropractic colleges:

http://www.nycc.edu/webdocs/registrar/DC_Curriculum.pdf
http://www.nwhealth.edu/college-of-chiropractic/curriculum-overview/

Both of these include courses in business and marketing. They make it a central part of their education to make sure you know how to sell your business. This is not something that you find in any medical school, including Caribbean.

When I said "chiropractors only do manipulation," this was in opposite to Osteopathic Physicians practicing medicine. That's a conclusion that anyone being reasonable would have concluded based on what I was saying. Yes, some chiropractors also do nutrition, which is the new thing they push for profits. This includes supplements and other stuff like that. However, chiropractors are not known as "nutritionists" but rather as for doing manipulation.

When I spoke about Chiropractic and Autism, I wasn't speaking about nutritional advice. Here's a website by chiropractors: http://www.chiro.org/research/ABSTRACTS/Autism.shtml where they make claims to doing atlas manipulation and other types of manipulations to treat autism. They also treat gastrointestinal problems with manipulation: http://www.naturalnews.com/029164_chiropractic_digestive_disorders.html lets also not get into bed wetting and another host of conditions they claim to treat through manipulation.

You are defending chiros. You are an apologist. Don't give me crap next time. You're the one that doesn't know what they do.

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chiropractors are very aggressive in encroaching on other people's turf. the latest battle was in texas, where they (almost) got the right to call themselves specialists in acupuncture with 300 hours of training:
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/cont...012/05/24/panel_wants_to_withdraw_rule_a.html

So when an MD does the same 300 hours of acupuncture training they are, what, NOT encroaching on other people's turf?

Not a very good example (a pretty bad one, really).
 
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Not many MDs do acupuncture anyways. The title "specialist" is a little silly for that no matter who does it
 
Not many MDs do acupuncture anyways. The title "specialist" is a little silly for that no matter who does it


But some do, and they do so via that same 300 hours that the earlier guy tried to say chiros use to "encroach" on other people's turf, or some crap like that.
 
But some do, and they do so via that same 300 hours that the earlier guy tried to say chiros use to "encroach" on other people's turf, or some crap like that.

I was agreeing with you (kinda). Acupuncture isn't MD territory even if some do it
 
I don't see a problem with teaching business practice when 90+% of chiros work in a private practice. It prepares them to effectively do what they've been taught.
 
chiropractors are very aggressive in encroaching on other people's turf. the latest battle was in texas, where they (almost) got the right to call themselves specialists in acupuncture with 300 hours of training:
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/cont...012/05/24/panel_wants_to_withdraw_rule_a.html


And, they have attempted to prevent physical therapists from perfomring thrust manipulation in Illinois twice in the last 11 years.


But, in facetguy's defense, I don't think he practices or beleives in the woo that manny find pervasive in the chiropractic profession. In fact, if there were more DCs like him I think most of us would feel better about our patients with musculoskeletal complaints going to a DC.
 
And, they have attempted to prevent physical therapists from perfomring thrust manipulation in Illinois twice in the last 11 years.

I would see that as more 'defending one's turf' than 'encroaching on someone else's turf' as was suggested earlier. The chiro profession isn't alone in doing that.


But, in facetguy's defense, I don't think he practices or beleives in the woo that manny find pervasive in the chiropractic profession. In fact, if there were more DCs like him I think most of us would feel better about our patients with musculoskeletal complaints going to a DC.

I think the woo that many find pervasive in the chiro profession is more perception than reality. Are there plenty of examples of craziness in chiropractic? Sure. But around here it is so often spun as if 99% of DCs are out in left field, which it's been my experience just isn't true.

But I do appreciate the kind words. :)
 
I don't see a problem with teaching business practice when 90+% of chiros work in a private practice. It prepares them to effectively do what they've been taught.

Exactly. To any objective person, this isn't difficult to understand. To someone holding an unnatural bias against chiros, these business-related courses must look like some smoking gun that chiropractors are crooks or something.

The reality is that most MDs, especially these days, will go on to become an employee of a corporation. People like Triage will likely never have to deal with many (or any) of the business-related issues that most DCs have to deal with. Hiring and managing office staff. Choosing a location for your practice. Real estate issues. Contracts. Leasing and/or purchasing equipment. And on and on, right down to which office forms to use. Gee, those business courses really are nefarious now, aren't they?

Most MDs finish their training, get hired somewhere, and go to work. These issues never cross their minds. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Believe me, running a practice/business is a pain in the ass sometimes. But that's how it is.

By the way, there's a thread right now in the Pain Medicine forum discussing how to market a new solo practice. Surely the folks posting there must be charlatans and dirtbags, right? I mean, how dare they? And it's more than once that I've seen it written here on SDN that someone wished they had a business course or two to better prepare them for practice challenges.

Having said all that, it's a pretty good guess that Triage still lives at home with his parents and has no clue about any of this real-world stuff. So maybe I shouldn't fault him for being naive. :smuggrin:
 
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Exactly. To any objective person, this isn't difficult to understand. To someone holding an unnatural bias against chiros, these business-related courses must look like some smoking gun that chiropractors are crooks or something.

The reality is that most MDs, especially these days, will go on to become an employee of a corporation. People like Triage will likely never have to deal with many (or any) of the business-related issues that most DCs have to deal with. Hiring and managing office staff. Choosing a location for your practice. Real estate issues. Contracts. Leasing and/or purchasing equipment. And on and on, right down to which office forms to use. Gee, those business courses really are nefarious now, aren't they?

Most MDs finish their training, get hired somewhere, and go to work. These issues never cross their minds. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Believe me, running a practice/business is a pain in the ass sometimes. But that's how it is.

By the way, there's a thread right now in the Pain Medicine forum discussing how to market a new solo practice. Surely the folks posting there must be charlatans and dirtbags, right? I mean, how dare they? And it's more than once that I've seen it written here on SDN that someone wished they had a business course or two to better prepare them for practice challenges.

Having said all that, it's a pretty good guess that Triage still lives at home with his parents and has no clue about any of this real-world stuff. So maybe I shouldn't fault him for being naive. :smuggrin:

The subject of chiro school business classrs usually comes up as a retort when pro chiro speakers attempt to compare the rigors of education (and to a smaller extent, necessity of availability) to medicine. The arguments are old enough that the context gets lost but I can't think of a reason to bring up your business courses unless you try to tell me that you have just as much training in the doing of the body as I do (you being the token chiro and I being the token medical professional.... I'm not asking you to whip it out right here ;))
 
The subject of chiro school business classrs usually comes up as a retort when pro chiro speakers attempt to compare the rigors of education (and to a smaller extent, necessity of availability) to medicine. The arguments are old enough that the context gets lost but I can't think of a reason to bring up your business courses unless you try to tell me that you have just as much training in the doing of the body as I do (you being the token chiro and I being the token medical professional.... I'm not asking you to whip it out right here ;))

To the best of my recollection, this is the first time I've commented on chiro school business courses and that's only been in response to a comment earlier in the thread. Honestly, back in the day I had limited exposure to business-related courses; hopefully today's chiro students get more of that stuff. Do pro-chiro speakers, as you say, really boast about their business courses?? I can't say I've seen or heard that, especially as a way of trying to exemplify the rigors of education. Did you just make that up, or have you been drinking again? :hungover:
 
To the best of my recollection, this is the first time I've commented on chiro school business courses and that's only been in response to a comment earlier in the thread. Honestly, back in the day I had limited exposure to business-related courses; hopefully today's chiro students get more of that stuff. Do pro-chiro speakers, as you say, really boast about their business courses?? I can't say I've seen or heard that, especially as a way of trying to exemplify the rigors of education. Did you just make that up, or have you been drinking again? :hungover:

you misunderstood me. Most of the time when DC business courses are brought up, IMO, it is done by people on the side of medicine in response to claims by pro-DC people who try to compare the curriculum. "They go to school for 4 years just like you do :prof:" gets met with "yes, but they spread the same amount of anatomy over 3 semesters and spend half an afternoon each day learning the things that people with a BA in business learned :shrug:"

I realize there is probably no way you won't take offense to that.... but... no offense :oops::D
But honestly, at least for me, the only reason I make such comments is because I think people should just put away the measuring sticks. I am pretty slow to bash someone until they obviously exaggerate a mediocre stat to inflate their side of the comparison.
 
you misunderstood me. Most of the time when DC business courses are brought up, IMO, it is done by people on the side of medicine in response to claims by pro-DC people who try to compare the curriculum. "They go to school for 4 years just like you do :prof:" gets met with "yes, but they spread the same amount of anatomy over 3 semesters and spend half an afternoon each day learning the things that people with a BA in business learned :shrug:"

I realize there is probably no way you won't take offense to that.... but... no offense :oops::D
But honestly, at least for me, the only reason I make such comments is because I think people should just put away the measuring sticks. I am pretty slow to bash someone until they obviously exaggerate a mediocre stat to inflate their side of the comparison.

That's not offensive at all, and I now see what you're saying. As I said earlier, I wasn't even aware that chiro business courses come up as a topic of conversation/debate, but it's certainly possible they do. I'll say this without checking my facts (because I don't really give a crap :eek:), but those business courses are done toward the end of the curriculum during clinical phase. So it's not like "Chiro Marketing 101" is displacing "Neuroanatomy" or something. And if memory serves (again, things may have changed these days), these courses were no more than a couple hours per week, not an afternoon every day.

The issue of spreading "the same amount of anatomy" out over 3 semesters is misleading. As you know better than I, medical school curriculum is set up in blocks where you concentrate on a subject almost exclusively for awhile, then move on to another topic. Chiro school is set up in a more traditional manner, where students will take many classes over the course of a semester. As such, while chiro students are studying anatomy they are also studying physiology/pathophysiology, biochemistry, neuroanatomy, biomechanics, chiro technique lab courses, etc. It's not surprising, then, that "the same amount of anatomy" gets spread over 3 semesters.

And one more thing. Earlier you mentioned whipping it out, and just now you talk about measuring sticks. What's the deal?? :laugh:
 
That's not offensive at all, and I now see what you're saying. As I said earlier, I wasn't even aware that chiro business courses come up as a topic of conversation/debate, but it's certainly possible they do. I'll say this without checking my facts (because I don't really give a crap :eek:), but those business courses are done toward the end of the curriculum during clinical phase. So it's not like "Chiro Marketing 101" is displacing "Neuroanatomy" or something. And if memory serves (again, things may have changed these days), these courses were no more than a couple hours per week, not an afternoon every day.

The issue of spreading "the same amount of anatomy" out over 3 semesters is misleading. As you know better than I, medical school curriculum is set up in blocks where you concentrate on a subject almost exclusively for awhile, then move on to another topic. Chiro school is set up in a more traditional manner, where students will take many classes over the course of a semester. As such, while chiro students are studying anatomy they are also studying physiology/pathophysiology, biochemistry, neuroanatomy, biomechanics, chiro technique lab courses, etc. It's not surprising, then, that "the same amount of anatomy" gets spread over 3 semesters.
It varies school by school (for both chiro and med). I've looked up curricula that have business practice courses each semester of training. Palmer has that (at least this is how I interpret the fundamentals of practice and other such courses).

And my medical school isn't on a block system. While I know they are out there, I don't think that is the norm. We take 3-5 basic science courses at once along with our 1 fluff class which is where we learn interview and physical exam skills. I'm not trying to be overly antagonistic here, but just to compare with Palmer (which I use as a gold standard, forgive me if you disagree)
Anatomy and embryology (palmer 2 classes) = anatomy (med)
histology/cell and cardiac phys, renal phys, endo/repro phys (palmer 5/6 classes) = physiology (1 class, they double dip for the path stuff two having separate sections for each system)
There two classes per semester (ish...) for exams = we actually learn the exam stuff largely in small groups on our own time.
I am seeing at least two different "chiro practice" and "philosophy" courses.....

There might be some forgiveness in there because we will often have multiple lectures from the same class in a day, and usually more than 1 in a week so if someone decides to dice it up differently it is still somewhat of a moot point. The big difference is not what they do within one block/quarter/semester whatever, but that anatomy, neuro, and path are taking at least an academic year, and sometimes up to a year and a half to complete.

The thing that gets me in the comparison, is that there simply isn't anything in any of the anatomy books, neuro books, or phys books that we did not cover to the extent of the depth it was made available within the book, and we did it in 1 semester for each of these subjects with the other classes running at the same time. Now, when someone wants to validate their educational experience by saying "we did a lot"... fine :thumbup: good job, gold star, all that jazz. But if they want to validate it by comparing to my education by saying "We had 3x as much anatomy as you did" well.... personally I view the alternative as medical education + training wheels. Doing the same amount of work in 3x the time isn't impressive so basically I just invite such people to keep their mouths shut before they say something dumb :D

Question for you.... you guys dont prescribe nor will you ever take a knife to someone or do a biopsy (as far as I am aware) so why do they have you guys doing (palmer west) a whole course on renal physiology (that was about 3 weeks for us :shrug:) and histology? I am all for background and foundational information but it seems largely irrelevant.

p.s. this isn't just against DCs, nor is it some ego padding "nobody can do what a doctor does" sort of thing. The same has held true in conversations with PAs, NPs, DVM, DDS, RNs, DPTs, whatever. With medicine as the perceived pinnacle of health training in terms of difficulty, selectivity, whatever (I think you can agree that this is true, focus on the words "perceived" or "selectivity if you must ;)) many people not in that system will feel compelled to validate their choice in front of people who are in that system - this comes from the misconception that we automatically look down on people who don't choose to be MDs, as if we think they weren't good enough to get into an MD school so went elsewhere. I can't even begin to list the people I've known who, upon hearing I am in med school" tell me "yeah, I was gunna do that too, but then I decided not to because of bleh bleh bleh, and figured that working as a cashier at the mall was a better fit" :confused: ok dude... :thumbup: whatever, I suspect pretty strongly that this guy wouldn't feel compelled to rationalize his life choices to his friend, the hair dresser....
Basically it boils down to this... like what you do, and don't pretend like you (anyone) know my situation and I won't feel compelled to point out the inaccuracies in comparison :)



And one more thing. Earlier you mentioned whipping it out, and just now you talk about measuring sticks. What's the deal??

I am honestly not sure :laugh::confused:
 
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Exactly. To any objective person, this isn't difficult to understand. To someone holding an unnatural bias against chiros, these business-related courses must look like some smoking gun that chiropractors are crooks or something.

Having said all that, it's a pretty good guess that Triage still lives at home with his parents and has no clue about any of this real-world stuff. So maybe I shouldn't fault him for being naive. :smuggrin:
I'm not saying it's a smoking gun, but rather it shows how important it is for them to advertise and make it a business. Yes, you can argue that it's "good" that their schools do it because it's their livelihood, yet that doesn't take away in any sense from the argument that Chiropractors advertise more and that there is a focus on that. In fact, to "any objective person," as you'd put it, it strengthens my argument that there is more advertisement and thus better known.

Your argument about corporations and not needing to know all that is very sweet and dandy for this day and age, but can you point to a medical school curriculum where business classes were offered in the 1950s and 1960s when the majority of physicians went into private practice? Did they all of a sudden not need to hire anyone? People magically work for them?

As for having no clue for real-world stuff, speak for yourself. I'm a non-traditional student, so I know what's it's like to live outside of the bosom of academia.

Next time you want to respond to me, respond to me. Don't be petty and put it into a response to someone else.

P.S. Don't think I didn't notice how your responses are selective. I showed you how they believe in quack things and you purposely didn't address them because you know you're wrong.
 
I'm not saying it's a smoking gun, but rather it shows how important it is for them to advertise and make it a business. Yes, you can argue that it's "good" that their schools do it because it's their livelihood, yet that doesn't take away in any sense from the argument that Chiropractors advertise more and that there is a focus on that. In fact, to "any objective person," as you'd put it, it strengthens my argument that there is more advertisement and thus better known.

I have news for you. A medical/chiropractic/PT/whatever practice IS a business. Get used to that notion. And what you say above doesn't address the fact that LOTS of medical entities advertise. It's not just a chiro thing.

Your argument about corporations and not needing to know all that is very sweet and dandy for this day and age, but can you point to a medical school curriculum where business classes were offered in the 1950s and 1960s when the majority of physicians went into private practice? Did they all of a sudden not need to hire anyone? People magically work for them?

Practices of all sorts were significantly less complicated in 1950. Like it or not, ours is a more complicated world today.

As for having no clue for real-world stuff, speak for yourself. I'm a non-traditional student, so I know what's it's like to live outside of the bosom of academia.

Uh, OK?

Next time you want to respond to me, respond to me. Don't be petty and put it into a response to someone else.

[YOUTUBE]XzPBUGUM7KQ[/YOUTUBE]



P.S. Don't think I didn't notice how your responses are selective. I showed you how they believe in quack things and you purposely didn't address them because you know you're wrong.

My friend, I've had these discussions for years around here. Believe me, I'm not ducking you.
 
movies have certainly improved in quality since then....

also, I am pretty sure his mole changes sides between the beginning and end of the movie.
 
movies have certainly improved in quality since then....

also, I am pretty sure his mole changes sides between the beginning and end of the movie.

You talkin' to me?

[YOUTUBE]4IXmHqPWxUw[/YOUTUBE]
 
I have news for you. A medical/chiropractic/PT/whatever practice IS a business. Get used to that notion. And what you say above doesn't address the fact that LOTS of medical entities advertise. It's not just a chiro thing.

Practices of all sorts were significantly less complicated in 1950. Like it or not, ours is a more complicated world today.

My friend, I've had these discussions for years around here. Believe me, I'm not ducking you.
See, that's the issue. You're trying to twist the argument to make it seem as if I was arguing something else. You tell me to "get used to that notion" when none of that commentary pertains to the original argument or even my beliefs. The question was "Why do people go to Chiropractors for back pain instead of Osteopathic Physicians?" The answer was, among many other reasons, that Chiropractors put an emphasis on advertisement. I proved that by showing how they have business courses and you further prove it by admitting it's a business and they put an emphasis on that because it's important to get business.

There were practices in the 90s too, but I appreciate the irony in someone claiming sweeping generalizations to do them himself.

And yes, you are ducking.
 
I'm honestly curious about this. How many people on these forums considered law school? I find more debate about argument technicalities than anything else. And, at least to my amateur eyes, they're always pretty good battles!

Not passing judgement by any means, but just curious if anyone ever considered/noticed it.

OK, intermission is over. Continue debate.
 
I'm honestly curious about this. How many people on these forums considered law school? I find more debate about argument technicalities than anything else. And, at least to my amateur eyes, they're always pretty good battles!

Not passing judgement by any means, but just curious if anyone ever considered/noticed it.

OK, intermission is over. Continue debate.

actually my mom wanted me to do this rather than med school :laugh:
 
See, that's the issue. You're trying to twist the argument to make it seem as if I was arguing something else. You tell me to "get used to that notion" when none of that commentary pertains to the original argument or even my beliefs. The question was "Why do people go to Chiropractors for back pain instead of Osteopathic Physicians?" The answer was, among many other reasons, that Chiropractors put an emphasis on advertisement. I proved that by showing how they have business courses and you further prove it by admitting it's a business and they put an emphasis on that because it's important to get business.

There were practices in the 90s too, but I appreciate the irony in someone claiming sweeping generalizations to do them himself.

And yes, you are ducking.

Alright, this is becoming useless now. So a few final thoughts:

The answer to the original question of "Why do people go to chiros for back pain instead of DOs?" is that there are something like 60,000 chiros out there who have been treating primarily back pain for over 100 years now, to which the general population has simply made the association "chiro -- back pain", whereas there are a very tiny number of DOs who emphasize manual therapy in their practices while at the same time there are DOs out there practicing every specialty, most of which have nothing to do with back pain. It's that simple. You can argue all day that it's because chiropractors are masters of advertising or master business people, but that's incorrect in my view (it's incorrect, but I'll say "in my view" to be polite).

You don't yet understand that medical practices are businesses. That's fine. Who cares. But I'm confident that someday you'll come to understand, so hang in there.
 
Alright, this is becoming useless now. So a few final thoughts:

The answer to the original question of "Why do people go to chiros for back pain instead of DOs?" is that there are something like 60,000 chiros out there who have been treating primarily back pain for over 100 years now, to which the general population has simply made the association "chiro -- back pain", whereas there are a very tiny number of DOs who emphasize manual therapy in their practices while at the same time there are DOs out there practicing every specialty, most of which have nothing to do with back pain. It's that simple. You can argue all day that it's because chiropractors are masters of advertising or master business people, but that's incorrect in my view (it's incorrect, but I'll say "in my view" to be polite).

You don't yet understand that medical practices are businesses. That's fine. Who cares. But I'm confident that someday you'll come to understand, so hang in there.
That's just sad when someone who has nothing going for them tries to be condescending. So sad you keep pushing the lie that I don't understand they are businesses :rolleyes:

For anyone interested, here's the original argument on my part:

I feel think there are multiple factors going on: 1. Chiropractors are advertising machines. They have special courses for their graduates to learn how to market their business. 2. Chiropractors only do manipulation, whereas DOs practice medicine, which creates more of that "Chiropractors fix backs and necks" mentality. Even they fight against this because they believe they are primary care practitioners that can treat even things like autism and gastrointestinal problems. 3. Many DOs don't do manipulation and very few of them have done residency in it. 4. People are ignorant about their options, which is tied to all 3 previous reasons.
As anyone without an agenda can see, I covered his "in his view" argument already.

seems my "sweeping generalizations" = his too.

Thanks for trying.
 
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