Can you have too much volunteering/clinical experience hours?

[helpabrotherout]

Do you think there's a certain point at which adcoms just stop caring (i.e. diminishing returns) or get suspicious because they think you're either lying or not taking rigorous enough classes? Personally I think anything past 500 hrs. would be when diminishing returns really starts kicking in.

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[SpartanWolverine]

Do you think there's a certain point at which adcoms just stop caring (i.e. diminishing returns) or get suspicious because they think you're either lying or not taking rigorous enough classes? Personally I think anything past 500 hrs. would be when diminishing returns really starts kicking in.

Yep. I think, at that point, getting varied experience is more important than racking up hours for the sake of it. If you're not actively getting something out of the experience... find something new for the ol' CV.

 

[Judson]

I think 500 is a good number. Pre-PA students often tell me they are required to have 1,000-2,000 volunteer hours. I think that's insane. First, it shouldn't be required - do it because you want to. Second, nobody should have 1,000-2,000 hours unless they've been volunteering since day 1 freshman year and multiple times per week. At that point, you probably want to diversify your CV a bit more.

 

[FutureSurgical]

I think 500 is a good number. Pre-PA students often tell me they are required to have 1,000-2,000 volunteer hours. I think that's insane. First, it shouldn't be required - do it because you want to. Second, nobody should have 1,000-2,000 hours unless they've been volunteering since day 1 freshman year and multiple times per week. At that point, you probably want to diversify your CV a bit more.

The PA sister program at a medical school I will be applying to needs at least 200 hours to qualify, but the average amount of hours that ones obtains that is matriculated is ~300 and the average entering age is 24 (which is similar to medical school) because they want people to REALLY explore healthcare in all fields, more than just shadowing 10 doctors for 30 hours each. They usually get EMTs, CNAs, and scribes that either 1. want more in medicine or 2. pre-PAs that took gap years just to rack up the hours.

 

[baxt1412]

if it takes away from other areas in your application, then yes. or if you only have shadowing with ONE doctor, even if it's 100+ hours.

 

[Judson]

The PA sister program at a medical school I will be applying to needs at least 200 hours to qualify, but the average amount of hours that ones obtains that is matriculated is ~300 and the average entering age is 24 (which is similar to medical school) because they want people to REALLY explore healthcare in all fields, more than just shadowing 10 doctors for 30 hours each. They usually get EMTs, CNAs, and scribes that either 1. want more in medicine or 2. pre-PAs that took gap years just to rack up the hours.

200-300 hours seems fair as a requirement to make sure you know what you're future may hold. I don't know what schools my colleagues are referring to when they say they need 1,000-2,000 hours but I find that to be overkill.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

200-300 hours seems fair as a requirement to make sure you know what you're future may hold. I don't know what schools my colleagues are referring to when they say they need 1,000-2,000 hours but I find that to be overkill.

2000 is ridiculous... think about that as FIFTY full-time weeks. After even just 300 hours in an ED, I felt like I got as much as I could from the position.

 

[BeancheBlanco]

No, you can't have "too many" volunteer hours. The more you add, the better. There is always more to learn and if you think you "mastered" a field after 200 hours of volunteering, you are just being naive. However, yes, there are diminishing returns. The first 200 clinical volunteering hours are necessary to being accepted into medical school while the next 200 hours (and so on) are just icing to make you stand out more. A lot of it also depends on what you learned from the experience. If you spent 2000 hours volunteering, it's probably easier to articulate what you learned and draw from more specific examples.

 

[Judson]

2000 is ridiculous... think about that as FIFTY full-time weeks. After even just 300 hours in an ED, I felt like I got as much as I could from the position.

Likewise. I'm just under 300 hours now and I have become complacent. I just cut back my schedule from twice a week to once every other week.

 

[FutureSurgical]

200-300 hours seems fair as a requirement to make sure you know what you're future may hold. I don't know what schools my colleagues are referring to when they say they need 1,000-2,000 hours but I find that to be overkill.

I know that UC Davis PA program wants at least 1000 hours in a healthcare environment.

 

[Vans42]

I personally had well over 500 hours of non-clinical volunteering (although I was working with people with disabilities) because I had been doing it for 6 years (I took two gap years). It was a huge talking point in all of my interviews and I started doing it before deciding I wanted to go to med school. I also progressed with my responsibilities and got further certification training. In that case, I think that many hours is great. If you are just trying to jam in volunteering hours because you "have to", then it will be pretty suspicious and it won't be as worth it. I recommend doing something that you are passionate about, and don't worry if it is clinical or non-clinical.

 

[Planes2Doc]

If you are doing it for the sake of medical school admissions, then the hour beyond what was needed to get into school is already too much.

But in all actuality, you can't have too much volunteering, especially if you're going to apply to service-focused schools. But of course you need to make sure that it doesn't negatively impact your grades. Also as @Vans42 , cramming a bunch of volunteer hours in a short period of time (such as starting volunteering a few months before applying) will look bad. Longevity is key.

Ultimately though, people are going into overkill mode when it comes to volunteering on SDN. It's kind of sad in hindsight, especially if you were mostly unwillingly providing free labor, and see how much potential earnings you threw away.

 

[kthxbai]

I begin to feel so inadequate... at the time of my application I had:

250 hours of hospital volunteering
240 hours of non-clinical volunteering
1 major community service project

240 hours of shadowing

5000+ hours of research

Somehow it doesn't seem enough compared to the SDN standards.... Ah well.

 

[Gauss44]

I have over 1000 volunteer hours at one hospital department and (sorry folks) but I absolutely love it there. At this stage, I would be delighted to return there after medical school as an employee.

 

[thepocatomyhontas]

I have over 1000 volunteer hours at one hospital department and (sorry folks) but I absolutely love it there. At this stage, I would be delighted to return there after medical school as an employee.

I feel the same way. I love my department too much to switch. I get so much out of even 1 hour there.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

I really want to leave my volunteer position at one hospital. I don't get much from it anymore, and I already have another position I get a lot more from at another, busier hospital. I have been there a year and have about 350 hours. I'm afraid to quit because I'm afraid it will come up in interviews and it will seem like I lack commitment. So, I don't think it would matter if I had 250, 500, or 1000 hours there, it seems to be all about commitment and longevity.

 

[thepocatomyhontas]

I really want to leave my volunteer position at one hospital. I don't get much from it anymore, and I already have another position I get a lot more from at another, busier hospital. I have been there a year and have about 350 hours. I'm afraid to quit because I'm afraid it will come up in interviews and it will seem like I lack commitment. So, I don't think it would matter if I had 250, 500, or 1000 hours there, it seems to be all about commitment and longevity.

Dang that's kind of a hard situation. I'm not sure what you could do, but I'd say that you explain that the other hospital gave you a richer experience and you felt like your time was better spent at the other hospital.

 

[hmoactktey]

I really want to leave my volunteer position at one hospital. I don't get much from it anymore, and I already have another position I get a lot more from at another, busier hospital. I have been there a year and have about 350 hours. I'm afraid to quit because I'm afraid it will come up in interviews and it will seem like I lack commitment. So, I don't think it would matter if I had 250, 500, or 1000 hours there, it seems to be all about commitment and longevity.

If you don't want to volunteer there anymore, then quit. Everyone quits at some point, and 350 hours is waaaaaay more than enough to show your commitment. You will not get asked about it in an interview.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

If you don't want to volunteer there anymore, then quit. Everyone quits at some point, and 350 hours is waaaaaay more than enough to show your commitment. You will not get asked about it in an interview.

Dang that's kind of a hard situation. I'm not sure what you could do, but I'd say that you explain that the other hospital gave you a richer experience and you felt like your time was better spent at the other hospital.

But it is 350 hours in only one year. I'm worried that I would be giving them a reason to reject me by saying I am too exhausted to work full time and then volunteer 10 hours over two days at one hospital and 5 hours one day at the hospital I want to leave.

 

[hmoactktey]

But it is 350 hours in only one year. I'm worried that I would be giving them a reason to reject me by saying I am too exhausted to work full time and then volunteer 10 hours over two days at one hospital and 5 hours one day at the hospital I want to leave.

One year is a long time. That shows plenty of commitment. When they talk about showing a lack of commitment, they mean leaving the position after one month, or one week, or even after one day. Yes, there are people that do this.

If someone were to ask you about this for some reason (again, never going to happen, I am just humoring your scenario), it is perfectly reasonable to say you wanted a new experience. Every hospital is different, and you will learn different things from each experience.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

One year is a long time. That shows plenty of commitment. When they talk about showing a lack of commitment, they mean leaving the position after one month, or one week, or even after one day. Yes, there are people that do this.

If someone were to ask you about this for some reason (again, never going to happen, I am just humoring your scenario), it is perfectly reasonable to say you wanted a new experience. Every hospital is different, and you will learn different things from each experience.

Yeah. I think the main thing is that I HATE quitting anything. It makes me physically sick. I think I am going to really push to have them change my day to a time other than Friday nights. It's especially hard because I am in a long-distance relationship and this keeps me from leaving on Friday nights to visit my SO over the weekend. If they can't accommodate, I guess I will leave.

 

[LizzyM]

With the 1000+ hours for PAs, the idea is, I think, to have one year of full time employment after college, or full-time for multiple summers, as an EMT or patient care tech, or an equivalent as a volunteer with an ambulance service or something like that. They really value the hands-on experience.

If the number of hours is reasonable for the number of months of effort, I don't have an upper limit I'd say is "too much". I do get exasperated with people who claim 168 hours per week because they were stuck in a specific setting (like a summer camp) 24/7. No one works 168 hrs/wk, except maybe the mommy of triplet toddlers.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I really want to leave my volunteer position at one hospital. I don't get much from it anymore, and I already have another position I get a lot more from at another, busier hospital. I have been there a year and have about 350 hours. I'm afraid to quit because I'm afraid it will come up in interviews and it will seem like I lack commitment. So, I don't think it would matter if I had 250, 500, or 1000 hours there, it seems to be all about commitment and longevity.

If you go from one hospital to another yet still continue volunteering, that is showing commitment. If you quit it all together, then that's not showing commitment. You should be fine, go wherever makes you happier. That's what most people would do anyway. You can also group all of your hospital volunteering together over many hospitals in the same spot on AMCAS.

 

[Planes2Doc]

But it is 350 hours in only one year. I'm worried that I would be giving them a reason to reject me by saying I am too exhausted to work full time and then volunteer 10 hours over two days at one hospital and 5 hours one day at the hospital I want to leave.

Wow, 350 hours in a year is quite excessive! Your volunteering is quite significant time-wise. I think you're looking to deep into this. Most pre-meds will only end up volunteering for 4 hours once a week. 15 hours per week is quite a bit, especially when you're working full-time. So much of doing things you're passionate about might cause you to burn out. Since AMCAS has done away with hours per week, what you can do is a minimum commitment (usually 3-4 months at most hospitals) per year. Just make sure you're actively volunteering when you submit your AMCAS, and you can spread those hours out over all that time. Since you're not asked to mention breaks in the activity, I don't see how it would be dishonest to do this. This will look good, and give you time to breathe since you seem to have a very heavy load. If you keep going on the same path, then maybe consider dropping some of the volunteering so you can focus on grades and MCAT. Those are the most important factors right now.

 

[Annabell Lee]

I've been wondering about diminishing returns in regard to clinical exposure hours.

I just graduated from nursing school (LPN) and have 650 hours if clinical experience from there. I start undergrad this fall, and I plan on working at least part time during school. I'm also going to try to get in plenty of research, volunteering and shadowing, but most of my EC hours will be from working in the hospital.

I will probably end up with a minimum of 3,000 hours experience.

I wonder if adcoms view this as any better than someone with a few hundred hours of clinical experience or if anything above 500 hours is all viewed the same.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I've been wondering about diminishing returns in regard to clinical exposure hours.

I just graduated from nursing school (LPN) and have 650 hours if clinical experience from there. I start undergrad this fall, and I plan on working at least part time during school. I'm also going to try to get in plenty of research, volunteering and shadowing, but most of my EC hours will be from working in the hospital.

I will probably end up with a minimum of 3,000 hours experience.

I wonder if adcoms view this as any better than someone with a few hundred hours of clinical experience or if anything above 500 hours is all viewed the same.

After a certain amount of time it all begins to look the same. At least the service-focused schools will LOVE you!

 

[Annabell Lee]

After a certain amount of time it all begins to look the same. At least the service-focused schools will LOVE you!

Do they like paid experience? Because that's what my 3,000+ hours would be from. I ask because my top choice seems service focused.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Do they like paid experience? Because that's what my 3,000+ hours would be from. I ask because my top choice seems service focused.

As long as you reach a large number of volunteer hours (at least 500) and have non-clinical volunteer with longevity, the paid experiences should be the dressing on the salad.

 

[VanEman]

USUHS completed a study that produced some astounding results---they determined that self-reported clinical volunteering hours correlated negatively with success in medical school. Not clear why that would be. I wonder if people who spend a lot of time as clinical volunteers may be covering for low GPA/MCAT, or adcoms admit them with lower GPA/MCAT thinking their experience will make them successful. Hmmmm

 

[Planes2Doc]

USUHS completed a study that produced some astounding results---they determined that self-reported clinical volunteering hours correlated negatively with success in medical school. Not clear why that would be. I wonder if people who spend a lot of time as clinical volunteers may be covering for low GPA/MCAT, or adcoms admit them with lower GPA/MCAT thinking their experience will make them successful. Hmmmm

Really? That's quite shocking! I'd imagine that it's the other way around. The people who have a laundry-list full of activities that accumulate hundreds or thousands of hours (ZERO to Mother Teresa applicants) usually have good grades and MCATs since they are very academically capable, and are most attractive for ADCOMs. The people with most service likely will end up gunning for high paying lifestyle specialties. If people pile on a bunch of activities and end up biting off more than they can chew, they will likely sink themselves before ever applying to medical school. I've seen some people do this, but usually with paid clinical work (not volunteering), since that is a larger commitment.

 

[Annabell Lee]

USUHS completed a study that produced some astounding results---they determined that self-reported clinical volunteering hours correlated negatively with success in medical school. Not clear why that would be. I wonder if people who spend a lot of time as clinical volunteers may be covering for low GPA/MCAT, or adcoms admit them with lower GPA/MCAT thinking their experience will make them successful. Hmmmm

I wonder how much of that is caused by seeing stuff done the wrong way.
I know some people who go into nursing school having worked in hospitals who have trouble answering test questions because they base their knowledge on what they've seen. Or they have trouble keeping regs straight because their facility policy is drilled into their head.

 

[VanEman]

Really? That's quite shocking! I'd imagine that it's the other way around. The people who have a laundry-list full of activities that accumulate hundreds or thousands of hours (ZERO to Mother Teresa applicants) usually have good grades and MCATs since they are very academically capable, and are most attractive for ADCOMs. The people with most service likely will end up gunning for high paying lifestyle specialties. If people pile on a bunch of activities and end up biting off more than they can chew, they will likely sink themselves before ever applying to medical school. I've seen some people do this, but usually with paid clinical work (not volunteering), since that is a larger commitment.

Here's the reference:
Does self-reported clinical experience predict performance in medical school and internship?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22239331

Application essays and future performance in medical school: are they related?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23330895

 

[LizzyM]

After a certain amount of time it all begins to look the same. At least the service-focused schools will LOVE you!

If the service is paid employment as an LPN, then it isn't volunteer service.

USUHS completed a study that produced some astounding results---they determined that self-reported clinical volunteering hours correlated negatively with success in medical school. Not clear why that would be. I wonder if people who spend a lot of time as clinical volunteers may be covering for low GPA/MCAT, or adcoms admit them with lower GPA/MCAT thinking their experience will make them successful. Hmmmm

You are misreporting this paper. It was clinical experience, not clinical volunteering. Those with clincial experience include former health professionals such as nurses and EMTs who move on to medical school and who may be less succesful academically in medical school compared with students who did not have clinical experience. Also, consider that this was done at Uniformed Services which may be attracting two different groups that are much different than the students at other med schools: graduates of the service academies who are unlikely to have obtained clinical experience but to highly intelligent, have a strong academic work ethic, and have an undergrad GPA that was not necessarily very strong (because of the rigor of the service academies). The other group would be former military medics who have extensive clinical experience but who may not have attended schools as rigorous as the military academies or top academic institutions in the US (3.85 from service academy is not equal to 3.85 from mostly community college pre-req classes). So, I could see how these results may have come out as they did.

We know that those who major in the health professions and who are admitted to med school have the lowest average GPA and MCAT. It may well be that they get in based on clinical experience. We may now see that controlling for undergrad GPA, the clinical experience is not going to close the gap in med school GPA and step 1 exams compared with more traditional students.

 

[VanEman]

If the service is paid employment as an LPN, then it isn't volunteer service.

You are misreporting this paper. It was clinical experience, not clinical volunteering. Those with clincial experience include former health professionals such as nurses and EMTs who move on to medical school and who may be less succesful academically in medical school compared with students who did not have clinical experience. Also, consider that this was done at Uniformed Services which may be attracting two different groups that are much different than the students at other med schools: graduates of the service academies who are unlikely to have obtained clinical experience but to highly intelligent, have a strong academic work ethic, and have an undergrad GPA that was not necessarily very strong (because of the rigor of the service academies). The other group would be former military medics who have extensive clinical experience but who may not have attended schools as rigorous as the military academies or top academic institutions in the US (3.85 from service academy is not equal to 3.85 from mostly community college pre-req classes). So, I could see how these results may have come out as they did.

We know that those who major in the health professions and who are admitted to med school have the lowest average GPA and MCAT. It may well be that they get in based on clinical experience. We may now see that controlling for undergrad GPA, the clinical experience is not going to close the gap in med school GPA and step 1 exams compared with more traditional students.

The study included "clinical experience" whether it was paid or volunteer. What I find most remarkable is that so many demands and requirements placed on medical school applicants, like volunteer hours, letters of reference, essays, and interviews, appear--- in the few studies being done on them ---not correlate with anything. How can our medical care system hope to have "evidence based" medicine when even the medical schools refuse to study and use what predicts success? However poor they may be as predictors, sGPA and MCAt trump everything else.

 

[Planes2Doc]

The study included "clinical experience" whether it was paid or volunteer. What I find most remarkable is that so many demands and requirements placed on medical school applicants, like volunteer hours, letters of reference, essays, and interviews, appear--- in the few studies being done on them ---not correlate with anything. How can our medical care system hope to have "evidence based" medicine when even the medical schools refuse to study and use what predicts success? However poor they may be as predictors, sGPA and MCAt trump everything else.

Especially when the ECs aren't being done out of genuine interest. If they are only the result of strategically checking boxes, then what do they actually say about the applicant, if anything at all?

 

[Aerus]

The study included "clinical experience" whether it was paid or volunteer. What I find most remarkable is that so many demands and requirements placed on medical school applicants, like volunteer hours, letters of reference, essays, and interviews, appear--- in the few studies being done on them ---not correlate with anything. How can our medical care system hope to have "evidence based" medicine when even the medical schools refuse to study and use what predicts success? However poor they may be as predictors, sGPA and MCAt trump everything else.

I think the main reason is because they just need a metric to weed more applicants out. With 5000+ apps, even if you use insane requirements to weed out your pool to 500, you can still pick top notch applicants from that pool of 500. No matter how amazing a person without a whole lot of clinical experience is, there will be a person with a lot of clinical experience just as amazing.