Chances at NYC Psychiatry Programs?

[yogalunafly]

Just got SDN so I apologize if I'm making a SDN etiquette error by making a new thread. Couldn't really find specific thread answers. I don't really have an advisor for psychiatry so hoping to get some advice here.

Step 1: 234
Step 2 CK/ CS: July
School: MD School (low-mid tier, in NE region), but resident of Southern state (GA...long story)
Class Rank: Bottom Half
Grades in Clerkship: All PASS except psych (Honors), good evaluations.
AOA: No
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars:Normal extracurriculars, some clinical research with 2 poster presentations. No pubs. Non-psych related research.
Red Flags: No major red flags
Overview of where you want to end up: Would like to end up in NE program (preferably NY/Boston) bcz my spouse works there. Otherwise, also looking at West Coast programs specifically California because of family in that region.

Would really appreciate some advice regarding what programs are possible for me in those regions based on mediocre grades and average application otherwise. I'm not sure what programs are too high of a reach for me. Would Cornell, NYU, Columbia, Mt. Sinai be worth applying to?

Thank you so much!

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[Psychotic]

Sure, apply, but don't expect too much from the Big 4. The same applies to California programs - apply, but don't hold your breath.

Make sure whatever reach programs you apply to, you apply to a sufficient number of ballpark programs - say 20. Then go nuts on the dream/reach programs.

You know there are more than just those 4 programs in NYC, including the coveted Manhattan location?

Also look at Brown in Providence, RI, which satisfies your geographic wants.

What is a non major red flag?

 

[yogalunafly]

Sure, apply, but don't expect too much from the Big 4. The same applies to California programs - apply, but don't hold your breath.

Make sure whatever reach programs you apply to, you apply to a sufficient number of ballpark programs - say 20. Then go nuts on the dream/reach programs.

You know there are more than just those 4 programs in NYC, including the coveted Manhattan location?

Also look at Brown in Providence, RI, which satisfies your geographic wants.

What is a non major red flag?

Hi Psychotic,
Thanks for your reply! I don't have any red flags on my application. I guess just being in the bottom half of my class is a minor red flag? And perhaps not having much psych related research or involvement. I was initially aiming for Pediatrics before I found out I liked psychiatry the best.

I guess I just do not know what my reach schools would be. I'd ideally like Manhattan and there does not seem to be many programs in that area. I was just mainly posting to see if I have a decent chance at the schools in NYC.
From what I can gather, I can increase my chances by doing decent on step 2 and perhaps doing some rotations in the region.

Thanks again for your reply!

 

[lymphocyte]

I was just mainly posting to see if I have a decent chance at the schools in NYC.

I count 17 programmes in NYC and environs. You're an AMG with average Step 1 scores and honours in psych. If you want NYC, you'll get it. No need for away rotations, except for maybe at NYU or Columbia--high tier programmes that would be competitive for even the best applicants. (But away rotations are always double-edged swords.)

To get to the heart of your post: no, you're not particularly competitive for the most competitive programmes on either Coast. Maybe, maybe not. But @Psychotic's advice is spot on.

Have you looked at Montefiore, Beth Israel, or LIJ? Those are less competitive programmes that offer great training.

Of course, doing well on Step 2 won't hurt your application.

 

[hamstergang]

Have you looked at Montefiore, Beth Israel, or LIJ? Those are less competitive programmes that offer great training.

I would look carefully at Beth Israel. They're closing the hospital but keeping it as just psych or something. I don't know the details, but I would be worried without reading a lot more.

 

[lymphocyte]

I would look carefully at Beth Israel. They're closing the hospital but keeping it as just psych or something. I don't know the details, but I would be worried without reading a lot more.

I had no idea. Are the other Icahn-affiliated residencies safe, like Elmhurst or Mt. Sinai? And then there's this:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/mt-sinai-psychiatry-is-a-joke.1106065/

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

I count 17 programmes in NYC and environs. You're an AMG with average Step 1 scores and honours in psych. If you want NYC, you'll get it. No need for away rotations, except for maybe at NYU or Columbia--high tier programmes that would be competitive for even the best applicants. (But away rotations are always double-edged swords.)

To get to the heart of your post: no, you're not particularly competitive for the most competitive programmes on either Coast. Maybe, maybe not. But @Psychotic's advice is spot on.

Have you looked at Montefiore, Beth Israel, or LIJ? Those are less competitive programmes that offer great training.

Of course, doing well on Step 2 won't hurt your application.

You're a medical student - you really don't know how this works until you are on the other side

 

[lymphocyte]

You're a medical student - you really don't know how this works until you are on the other side

I apologise for overstepping.

One of my mentors is a PD in NY, and I'm interested in the area, so I've asked a fair few questions. My advice is based on his feedback.

Did I say something wrong. Perhaps you can correct me and help the OP?

 

[hamstergang]

I had no idea. Are the other Icahn-affiliated residencies safe, like Elmhurst or Mt. Sinai?

I don't really know anything about it other than that this is a thing. I'm sure there are good sources out there if you search around a little.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Hi Psychotic,
Thanks for your reply! I don't have any red flags on my application. I guess just being in the bottom half of my class is a minor red flag? And perhaps not having much psych related research or involvement. I was initially aiming for Pediatrics before I found out I liked psychiatry the best.

I guess I just do not know what my reach schools would be. I'd ideally like Manhattan and there does not seem to be many programs in that area. I was just mainly posting to see if I have a decent chance at the schools in NYC.
From what I can gather, I can increase my chances by doing decent on step 2 and perhaps doing some rotations in the region.

Thanks again for your reply!

Definitely apply to the Big Four and you might get interviews at some of them, but the people who actually match at each of the four are absolutely stellar applicants. Your next best place in the NYC area outside of the Big 4 is probably LIJ because of John Kane (lots of NIH money and a huge name). I know nothing about Einstein, so I won't comment. I would AVOID the other Manhattan programs because of the low quality of residents/teaching/infrastructure, etc. I agree with going for stronger programs in the NE even if they might reaches (Brown, Longwood, Penn, etc) because they have top notch training yet will likely be less competitive for you than the Big 4 in Manhattan. Your Step 1 score is your strongest attribute and matters much more than your class rank, (lack of) research, etc.

Likewise UCSF, Stanford, UCLA-NPI will be long shots, but UCLA Harbor and UCSD might be doable (UCSD is so underrated, but they have absolute legends on faculty- Hagop Akiskal, Dilip Jeste, Walter Kaye, Mark Schuckit, and yes... Stahl).

 

[prok]

Definitely apply to the Big Four and you might get interviews at some of them, but the people who actually match at each of the four are absolutely stellar applicants. Your next best place in the NYC area outside of the Big 4 is probably LIJ because of John Kane (lots of NIH money and a huge name). I know nothing about Einstein, so I won't comment. I would AVOID the other Manhattan programs because of the low quality of residents/teaching/infrastructure, etc. I agree with going for stronger programs in the NE even if they might reaches (Brown, Longwood, Penn, etc) because they have top notch training yet will likely be less competitive for you than the Big 4 in Manhattan. Your Step 1 score is your strongest attribute and matters much more than your class rank, (lack of) research, etc.

Likewise UCSF, Stanford, UCLA-NPI will be long shots, but UCLA Harbor and UCSD might be doable (UCSD is so underrated, but they have absolute legends on faculty- Hagop Akiskal, Dilip Jeste, Walter Kaye, Mark Schuckit, and yes... Stahl).

This is secondhand info, but I don't think UCSD is underrated, at least from the applicant standpoint. Talking to our MS4s, we had two people who matched to those "Big 4" Manhattan programs that didn't get interviews at UCSD or some of the other big name California programs. One of them is from LA and got interviews at other programs in that area. Matching in California seems like it was absolutely brutal this past cycle. I don't have any specific data or anything, but I think OP should probably still apply broadly like any other applicant. Limiting themselves to only high quality programs on the coasts seems really risky.

 

[notdeadyet]

Your next best place in the NYC area outside of the Big 4 is probably LIJ because of John Kane (lots of NIH money and a huge name).

From an alternate POV, I'd recommend LIJ because of John Young, who is an excellent resident educator and brought a lot of positive changes with him to the program.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

I apologise for overstepping.

One of my mentors is a PD in NY, and I'm interested in the area, so I've asked a fair few questions. My advice is based on his feedback.

Did I say something wrong. Perhaps you can correct me and help the OP?

Exactly. You are repeating information based on one person, who is definitely going to have a biased view. Until I went through the process of applying, interviewing, getting rejected from certain places, seeing where people in my med school class with better and worse numbers than I had interviewed/were denied interviews, seeing who else was interviewing at the places I was interviewing, seeing where everyone matched, seeing who my co residents were, and finally, seeing what kinds of applicants my program recruits, where else they are looking, who matches with us, etc I really had no idea.

Ultimately, for most applicants, the two most important factors are step 1 score and where you went to med school.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

This is secondhand info, but I don't think UCSD is underrated, at least from the applicant standpoint. Talking to our MS4s, we had two people who matched to those "Big 4" Manhattan programs that didn't get interviews at UCSD or some of the other big name California programs. One of them is from LA and got interviews at other programs in that area. Matching in California seems like it was absolutely brutal this past cycle. I don't have any specific data or anything, but I think OP should probably still apply broadly like any other applicant. Limiting themselves to only high quality programs on the coasts seems really risky.

Again, you are a med student basing information from one med school class. UCSD is a well respected department with a top notch program, but in academic psychiatry circles (which again most people don't understand until at least residency), it's not quite viewed on the same level as UCLA NPI, UCSF, or Stanford. Similarly on the east coast, a friend at Mass General said, "we don't even consider Columbia to be on the same level as us... a distant #2"

 

[prok]

Again, you are a med student basing information from one med school class. UCSD is a well respected department with a top notch program, but in academic psychiatry circles (which again most people don't understand until at least residency), it's not quite viewed on the same level as UCLA NPI, UCSF, or Stanford. Similarly on the east coast, a friend at Mass General said, "we don't even consider Columbia to be on the same level as us... a distant #2"

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything about the prestige or quality of these programs. I think we're talking about different things here. Purely from an application perspective, these are competitive regions and pretty much all of the programs mentioned here are competitive programs within those regions. The people sending out these applications only have about as much information as someone like me, so they may not know what programs are considered a step down in academic circles.

Nobody seems to know exactly what the match is like nowadays, but being picky both about location and about prestige seems risky.

 

[lymphocyte]

Ultimately, for most applicants, the two most important factors are step 1 score and where you went to med school.

At the risk of irritating you even more...

These kinds of insider posts are really helpful. So is it generally 50:50, gestalt, one SD higher than the mean and they don't care about the school anymore, etc.? And I'd imagine the most prestigious programmes are much more pedigree conscious?

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

At the risk of irritating you even more...

These kinds of insider posts are really helpful. So is it generally 50:50, gestalt, one SD higher than the mean and they don't care about the school anymore, etc.? And I'd imagine the most prestigious programmes are much more pedigree conscious?

Each program is different, and each program director has his or her own quirks. I can't answer for what individual people value (tbh I personally would take an accomplished FMG with high scores and work ethic over a below average US MD from a top 25 school- but other people feel differently) , but in looking back on my experience with the process and being somewhat involved in recruitment, I can tell you that above all else med school and Step 1 score are the most important factors because they are comparable across all applicants. And several PDs who post on this site have echoed this in other threadsNow, if you are an MD PhD (or have done an equivalent amount of research) this may be the only major exception.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything about the prestige or quality of these programs. I think we're talking about different things here. Purely from an application perspective, these are competitive regions and pretty much all of the programs mentioned here are competitive programs within those regions. The people sending out these applications only have about as much information as someone like me, so they may not know what programs are considered a step down in academic circles.

Nobody seems to know exactly what the match is like nowadays, but being picky both about location and about prestige seems risky.

Again, you are a med student going off of what an already-matched class says. And where any one applicant interviews/doesn't interview is not reflective of the process as a whole or competitiveness of a program. A solid program will have, say >1000 applications for 100 interview slots for 10-16 match slots, and the PD/selection committee will have to be judicious about whom they extend interview invitations especially now that more people are applying more places to ensure they get a desirable intern class. And it's not uncommon for really strong programs (but not the MGH/UCSF level) to not immediately extend invites to the best of the best applicants because they know they will likely want an MGH or UCSF or whatever.

And obviously there's nothing wrong with applying broadly and aiming high (and I would recommend any decent applicant to go for the top programs because you never know...), but you have to be realistic too.

 

[Blitz2006]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned St. Lukes Roosevelt. I think thats a pretty decent 2nd tier NYC program, on par with LIJ/Einstein/BI.

LIJ is a great program, I think its the location that may pull it down.

Also consider SUNY Downstate. You will see a lot of psychopathology, high volume. King's County Hospital makes you develop a thick skin....

 

[lymphocyte]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned St. Lukes Roosevelt. I think thats a pretty decent 2nd tier NYC program, on par with LIJ/Einstein/BI.

LIJ is a great program, I think its the location that may pull it down.

Also consider SUNY Downstate. You will see a lot of psychopathology, high volume. King's County Hospital makes you develop a thick skin....

St. Luke's merged with Mt. Sinai. Seems like a lot of consolidation happening there (as per the post above re: Beth Israel). Might you have any insights on its long-term stability? It seems like something they might not mention during interviews...

 

[lymphocyte]

no they have completely separately residency programs

Pardon, I meant the Mt. Sinai hospital system. Yes there's Mt. Sinai proper, but the hospital system seems to be also gobbling up smaller hospitals around it and consolidating.

 

[hamstergang]

no they have completely separately residency programs

Child fellowships have merged, though. I have a friend there who didn't know how things were going to be sorted out for a while.

 

[liftaway]

hi everyone, long time lurker new poster here as well. also not sure of SDN etiquette but was hoping to get some insight on my chances given that i'm looking to do residency in NYC too. my partner just got a job in NYC so i'm geographically limited to the city.

Step 1: 216
Step 2 CK/ CS: July/ took in May and waiting for results
School: MD school (mid tier in NE region), originally from NYC, heard that my ivy league undergrad pedigree could help me, but i doubt anyone cares
Class Rank: maybe somewhere in middle? we don't have rankings yet
Grades in Clerkship: all excellent (including psych), 2 honors
AOA: No
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: a year of research before med school, 3 pubs, 6 abstract/posters, basic ECs with 2 leadership positions, humanities background
Letters: will have 2 psych letters (one from clerkship director), 1 letter from director of IM specialty dept
Red Flags: No
Overview of where you want to end up: there are obviously the upper tier programs in NYC, but it seems like on SDN all the others are described as IMG sweatshops...

how many NYC programs would you recommend i apply to? i am intending on doing 2 away rotations at NYC at the big 4. sorry if i shouldn't have hijacked this thread!

 

[MiddleRoad]

no they have completely separately residency programs

It's correct to highlight this recent merger because it's likely Beth Israel will no longer have a residency soon since their hospital is being closed by the Mt Sinai system.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Pardon, I meant the Mt. Sinai hospital system. Yes there's Mt. Sinai proper, but the hospital system seems to be also gobbling up smaller hospitals around it and consolidating.

Almost zero chance of BI/SLR residencies merging with Sinai proper residency because 1) there is a huge difference in quality of the resident (literally apples and oranges) and 2) Sinai's admin is controlled by psychiatrists (Ken Davis is CEO and Dennis Charney is Dean... Eric Nestler is also chair of neuroscience). The flagship hospital will continue to maintain and grow an elite department with elite residents.

As mentioned above, BI's future is up in the air, so who knows what will happen there. Maybe SLR's department+residency will also end and will be isntead filled with purely clinical Sinai attendings who can generate a lot of revenue by seeing lots of patients

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

hi everyone, long time lurker new poster here as well. also not sure of SDN etiquette but was hoping to get some insight on my chances given that i'm looking to do residency in NYC too. my partner just got a job in NYC so i'm geographically limited to the city.

Step 1: 216
Step 2 CK/ CS: July/ took in May and waiting for results
School: MD school (mid tier in NE region), originally from NYC, heard that my ivy league undergrad pedigree could help me, but i doubt anyone cares
Class Rank: maybe somewhere in middle? we don't have rankings yet
Grades in Clerkship: all excellent (including psych), 2 honors
AOA: No
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: a year of research before med school, 3 pubs, 6 abstract/posters, basic ECs with 2 leadership positions, humanities background
Letters: will have 2 psych letters (one from clerkship director), 1 letter from director of IM specialty dept
Red Flags: No
Overview of where you want to end up: there are obviously the upper tier programs in NYC, but it seems like on SDN all the others are described as IMG sweatshops...

how many NYC programs would you recommend i apply to? i am intending on doing 2 away rotations at NYC at the big 4. sorry if i shouldn't have hijacked this thread!

There's nothing that really sets you apart, but you could very well get interviews at any or all of the big four (one of the big four in particular had some questionable interviewees when I interviewed there), but actually matching will be difficult because of the sheer competitiveness of these places. In most cases externships are a waste of time, but if you really shine and click with the residents (and you have to take an honest look at yourself because an externship could easily backfire- this happens often at my program), it might get the residents/possibly attendings to sell you to the PD (this happened once at my program, but the applicant was strong on paper anyway and prob would have had a good shot without the externship).

Though it won't make up for your Step 1 score, put some considerable effort into Step 2 (though again, 250s on Step 2 are becoming more of the norm...)

Your ivy league undergrad degree may get you an interview invite (seen this happen) and might be a nice talking point particularly if you interview with an alum, but I doubt it would have a huge impact on where you are ranked. Impact of research is hard to say (some faculty may love it, others may not care).

As mentioned above, LIJ is the next best behind the big four.

 

[liftaway]

There's nothing that really sets you apart, but you could very well get interviews at any or all of the big four (one of the big four in particular had some questionable interviewees when I interviewed there), but actually matching will be difficult because of the sheer competitiveness of these places. In most cases externships are a waste of time, but if you really shine and click with the residents (and you have to take an honest look at yourself because an externship could easily backfire- this happens often at my program), it might get the residents/possibly attendings to sell you to the PD (this happened once at my program, but the applicant was strong on paper anyway and prob would have had a good shot without the externship).

Though it won't make up for your Step 1 score, put some considerable effort into Step 2 (though again, 250s on Step 2 are becoming more of the norm...)

Your ivy league undergrad degree may get you an interview invite (seen this happen) and might be a nice talking point particularly if you interview with an alum, but I doubt it would have a huge impact on where you are ranked. Impact of research is hard to say (some faculty may love it, others may not care).

As mentioned above, LIJ is the next best behind the big four.

Thanks so much for the feedback and helpful insight. Do you think I have a shot at the mid tier programs though (Montefiore, St. Luke's, BI)?

 

[BigBear123]

Thanks so much for the feedback and helpful insight. Do you think I have a shot at the mid tier programs though (Montefiore, St. Luke's, BI)?

Just FYI, BI is closing in ~2 years. Would definitely not recommend applying there. The situation for their current residents is not good.

 

[DPYN]

NYC psych was fairly competitive last year and expect it will be tougher if BI psych residency is downsized. However, that seems highly unlikely as Sinai seems to be sending most of their behavioral health services to the new 'downtown' campus. Would stay tuned.

 

[Journey05]

I'm a current PGY-3 at MSSLR. Feel free to PM for any questions you have regarding our program as I have really have enjoyed my residency training here. Visit the recently updated website (http://www.slrpsychiatry.org) too. In general, I agree there is almost zero percent chance of our residency merging. We have received global notifications that BI residents will be doing rotations at other Mt Sinai hospital systems during their closing down/reconstruction into "Mount Sinai Downtown." BI residents lost their housing nearby and they are currently being offered housing at our MSSLR's site (near columbus circle). The only changes I have noticed in our program is that the child inpatient unit is now at St. Luke's, along with merger of the child psychiatry fellowship. For residency, there is some administrative changes (basically moving some of Mt Sinai child attendings/directors to help with our child caseload/teaching). We recently had an increase of hiring new attendings for our inpatient and CL services.
As far as I know, they are planning to move the ECT program all to MSSL with overall plan of making psychiatry a center for excellence at St. Lukes. It's important to ask all these questions on interview day to get the most updated information. I would not overlook this program, as you will become a solid psychiatrist, in addition we have a union which provides amazing benefits (2nd highest salary in the city (1st would be LIJ), subsidized housing with spacious studies/1bedrooms/2bedrooms, reimbursed step 3, high $ book allowance/meal money, and shuttles to get from roosevelt to St. Lukes. If you are looking for a research career, I would probably not make this program a priority but there are definitely research opportunities (I have been working with researchers from Mt Sinai main every week which has been great). These are the first things that come to my mind - hope it helps.