Chances for this Non-Trad Applicant

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surfguy84

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Overall GPA: 2.8
Pre-req GPA: 3.6
MCAT: To be determined. For the most part, I easily handled bio, chem, ochem, and physics. I'm assuming with ample study time, I should be able to pull a decent score.

Other factors:
Strong upward trend. Poor years 2002-2004 brought down my overall GPA. Graduated in 2006.
400+ hours clinical experience
Several months volunteer health work in 3rd world country
I am 29 years old and am currently acting CEO of a successful web start-up. I founded a mobile health/fitness company and have decided to leave the industry, sell my equity stake, and pursue my dream of medicine. I have zero financial motivation/concerns for wanting to become a physician. I simply want to assist the poor, unfortunate, and needy people of this world. I realized this was my true calling during my volunteer work overseas. I'm sure this is very cliche to a lot of you, but it doesn't make it any less sincere.

I feel I am completely competent, intelligent, have shown I can handle medical school classwork, clearly demonstrated leadership abilities, and bring a ton of worldly experience with me. My downside is I screwed up ten years ago during my freshmen and sophmore years of college. In your humble opinions....where do I stand? Many thanks...
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Do post bacc to raise your gpa to at least a 3.0, get a good mcat score, and you have a shot at DO. Or do an SMP if you want to go for MD. DO schools love nontrads btw, so with at least a 3.0 and a great mcat score i think youd have an excellent chance
 
Agree with above. Have you retaken classes? DO schools take the replacement grade and completely drop the original grade, while MD schools do not. They use both.

There are just too many schools with 3.0 automatic cutoffs. If you have retaken some very bad grades and are over 3.0, you probably have a chance at DO. If you are wanting MD, you need to raise above a 3.0. Understand though, that for MD, your numbers still aren't anywhere near competitive. You will like have to also do an SMP. But with a strong upward trend and bad grades from years ago, you MIGHT have a chance. But you have a much better chance at DO with a >3.0 cgpa.
 
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FrkyBgStok said:
Agree with above. Have you retaken classes? DO schools take the replacement grade and completely drop the original grade, while MD schools do not. They use both.

There are just too many schools with 3.0 automatic cutoffs. If you have retaken some very bad grades and are over 3.0, you probably have a chance at DO. If you are wanting MD, you need to raise above a 3.0. Understand though, that for MD, your numbers still aren't anywhere near competitive. You will like have to also do an SMP. But with a strong upward trend and bad grades from years ago, you MIGHT have a chance. But you have a much better chance at DO with a >3.0 cgpa.
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Understood. I have been reading on some DO sites that "numbers aren't everything", "the dean reserves the right to admit any application", etc. Who exactly are these "numbers aren't everything" people who are getting in despite (presumably) <3.0 cGPAs? Forgive me if I come across as a bit pompous, but I don't see how I don't ascend to the top of this group.

It just seems insane that these schools would place such an emphasis on what I did 10 years ago, considering everything else I've done since; not to mention I've done 3.6 work in med school type classes. I have doctors working for me, yet, my school work when I was 18/19 may preclude me from becoming one....something ain't right with this system.

If I retake 4 classes I failed my freshmen/soph year I can raise my GPA to a 3.15 assuming A's. I think this is the route I will go. I sincerely appreciate your feedback...more opinions still welcomed.
 
surfguy84 said:
Understood. I have been reading on some DO sites that "numbers aren't everything", "the dean reserves the right to admit any application", etc. Who exactly are these "numbers aren't everything" people who are getting in despite (presumably) <3.0 cGPAs? Forgive me if I come across as a bit pompous, but I don't see how I don't ascend to the top of this group.

It just seems insane that these schools would place such an emphasis on what I did 10 years ago, considering everything else I've done since; not to mention I've done 3.6 work in med school type classes. I have doctors working for me, yet, my school work when I was 18/19 may preclude me from becoming one....something ain't right with this system.

If I retake 4 classes I failed my freshmen/soph year I can raise my GPA to a 3.15 assuming A's. I think this is the route I will go. I sincerely appreciate your feedback...more opinions still welcomed.
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i don't disagree with you. And the average for DO matriculants is 3.47, so while numbers aren't everything, your cgpa is WAY far away. But the bigger point is that many schools have a 3.0 automatic cutoff. So because of your numbers, your application won't even get looked at by human eyes. You NEED to get to that point.

The problem is that many schools follow an elimination system which is basically:

1) computer determined automatic cut off (generally automatically send secondaries or automatically reject)
2) have people glance at your application for red flags
3) have people look more at your grades and qualifications
4) determine whether to reject, hold, or offer interview
5) interview and decide
6) waitlist, rejection, acceptance.

Rough idea, but with many schools having a computer decide step one, you will never get to the point where people look and see that you did better. Sometimes it doesn't make sense, but med school is very very competitive. Some schools have a 3.25 automatic cutoff, but there are only a couple of those.

you may still be able to get in to the schools that don't automatically cutoff, but some of these schools are brand new or not established. it is worth getting your gpa to 3.15 in order to make yourself competitive at the most schools.

also, there are tens of thousands of applicants. many have similar backgrounds as you without the bad gpa. beauty isn't everything, but if the girl hitting on you at the bar is fugly, you probably aren't going to let her explain how good she is. make sense?
 
Just a few points:

AACOMAS grade forgiveness policy: Each class that one retakes must have the same credit hours as the original course, or greater. The retake need not be at the same school. The course name needn't be identical so long as the course content is demonstrably similar per the course catalogs.

ALL DO schools don't have a 3.0 cutoff. Keep in mind that what is overtly stated and what is actually true may vary (and can change from year to year):
DO GPA cut offs: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7199902&postcount=2

You might benefit from calling your top three or so schools and getting a consultation as to exactly what you'd need to be competitive at their institution. Considering your recent excellent academic work, some schools may feel you have no more to prove.

This link goes to the AACOMAS school MSAR-equivalent and can give you more detailed info about individual school requirements:
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2012cib/2012cib-whole.pdf
 
Catalystik said:
Just a few points:

AACOMAS grade forgiveness policy: Each class that one retakes must have the same credit hours as the original course, or greater. The retake need not be at the same school. The course name needn't be identical so long as the course content is demonstrably similar per the course catalogs.

ALL DO schools don't have a 3.0 cutoff. Keep in mind that what is overtly stated and what is actually true may vary (and can change from year to year):
DO GPA cut offs: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7199902&postcount=2

You might benefit from calling your top three or so schools and getting a consultation as to exactly what you'd need to be competitive at their institution. Considering your recent excellent academic work, some schools may feel you have no more to prove.

This link goes to the AACOMAS school MSAR-equivalent and can give you more detailed info about individual school requirements:
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2012cib/2012cib-whole.pdf
Click to expand...

To you and the above poster; thank you for your feedback. What you guys have said does make sense. I certainly understand the auto-cutoff and the fact that would prohibit human eyes from looking at my application.

I guess my queries are moreso for schools without the auto-cutoff but with avg cGPAs higher than my own. What makes me a particularly strong candidate, imo, is my excurriculars, upward trend, and science GPA...all things a human would have to take into account. But no need to beat a dead horse; I get what you guys are saying.

I have no problem going to a DO school as I have no real desire/need to specialize in and gain acceptance to one of the highly competitive residencies (I'm assuming getting these are much harder from DO school). I would like to stay in California if at all possible for school however, so I think I will contact TUCOM and Western U to see what they think.

Quick question - Should I lay out my credentials, upward trend, etc. and point blank ask them if they feel re-taking UG classes is neccessary at this point of my life? How would you go about tactfully getting the info you want from these schools? Many thanks.
 
surfguy84 said:
To you and the above poster; thank you for your feedback. What you guys have said does make sense. I certainly understand the auto-cutoff and the fact that would prohibit human eyes from looking at my application.

I guess my queries are moreso for schools without the auto-cutoff but with avg cGPAs higher than my own. What makes me a particularly strong candidate, imo, is my excurriculars, upward trend, and science GPA...all things a human would have to take into account. But no need to beat a dead horse; I get what you guys are saying.

I have no problem going to a DO school as I have no real desire/need to specialize in and gain acceptance to one of the highly competitive residencies (I'm assuming getting these are much harder from DO school). I would like to stay in California if at all possible for school however, so I think I will contact TUCOM and Western U to see what they think.

Quick question - Should I lay out my credentials, upward trend, etc. and point blank ask them if they feel re-taking UG classes is neccessary at this point of my life? How would you go about tactfully getting the info you want from these schools? Many thanks.
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Non-trad matriculating in August here. To give you some more perspective...my stats included a 3.3 cgpa, which included a 3.9 postbacc. MCAT was 30+, strong EC's, research, etc

More likely than not, you're going to have to get the cgpa > 3.0. A fair amount of D.O. schools will be raising their minimum gpa from sub-3.0 to an even 3.0 during the upcoming application cycle so one way or another you're going to have to take classes. Keep in mind, though, that your MCAT score will play a significant role in answering "which classes" and "how many." If you're looking for a straight up answer to "are they necessary?" you really need your MCAT score. Assuming A's...the fewer upper level science courses/retakes you complete, the stronger your MCAT is going to need to be.
 
surfguy84 said:
Quick question - Should I lay out my credentials, upward trend, etc. and point blank ask them if they feel re-taking UG classes is neccessary at this point of my life? How would you go about tactfully getting the info you want from these schools? Many thanks.
Click to expand...
I suggest calling to make a phone appointment with a dean or similar admissions counselor rather than expecting instant information, as you want the most knowledgeable person to give you a reliable answer. State that you will be a nontraditional applicant and want to know what will make your application competitive for their school, in light of distant-past academic mediocrity. Then lay it all out, and ask about retakes. Ask what it will take to get past auto screening.

I suspect those two schools are highly-selective, so don't be discouraged by the answers you get (which hopefully won't be the politically-correct pollyanna-ish answer that they look at every application for hidden gold). Also, maybe call the Arizona schools and the two in the Pacific Northwest (if staying closer to home is important), or those near whatever cities you feel might make for an enjoyable 4 years.

If you are so inclined, it would be great if you'd post the information you get for the sake of others in your shoes.
 
Catalystik said:
I suggest calling to make a phone appointment with a dean or similar admissions counselor rather than expecting instant information, as you want the most knowledgeable person to give you a reliable answer. State that you will be a nontraditional applicant and want to know what will make your application competitive for their school, in light of distant-past academic mediocrity. Then lay it all out, and ask about retakes. Ask what it will take to get past auto screening.

I suspect those two schools are highly-selective, so don't be discouraged by the answers you get (which hopefully won't be the politically-correct pollyanna-ish answer that they look at every application for hidden gold). Also, maybe call the Arizona schools and the two in the Pacific Northwest (if staying closer to home is important), or those near whatever cities you feel might make for an enjoyable 4 years.

If you are so inclined, it would be great if you'd post the information you get for the sake of others in your shoes.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Hopefully I'll be able to have this call and glean this info, in the next week or so. I'll keep you guys updated in this thread.
 
One last question...I've read a decent amount on Carib med schools. I realize carib grads have a very tough time landing a competitive residency. As I've explained, I have no desire to land or work in a competitive field of medicine.

If I'm content with doing IM, pediatrics, psych, etc. would a Carib school be acceptable?
 
surfguy84 said:
One last question...I've read a decent amount on Carib med schools. I realize carib grads have a very tough time landing a competitive residency. As I've explained, I have no desire to land or work in a competitive field of medicine.

If I'm content with doing IM, pediatrics, psych, etc. would a Carib school be acceptable?
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It's absolutely acceptable. The decision to attend a carib school is often compared to the decision to attend a D.O. school. There's more than enough debate on this issue on sdn. It's a very personal decision.

As I'm sure you're aware, a carib acceptance will be easier to get than any US medical school acceptance (be it allo or osteo)
 
yankeefan18 said:
It's absolutely acceptable. The decision to attend a carib school is often compared to the decision to attend a D.O. school. There's more than enough debate on this issue on sdn. It's a very personal decision.

As I'm sure you're aware, a carib acceptance will be easier to get than any US medical school acceptance (be it allo or osteo)
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This is wrong.

OP- A Caribbean school will cause you to have a very tough time getting any residency. You have an easy fix by retaking a couple classes. Caribbean is a last resort. Going to a DO school would be exponentially better. And just because you have no desire for a competitive specialty now, doesn't mean you won't. And you will have better luck with non-competitive specialties in decent areas as a DO.

Don't go caribbean if at all possible.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
This is wrong.

OP- A Caribbean school will cause you to have a very tough time getting any residency. You have an easy fix by retaking a couple classes. Caribbean is a last resort. Going to a DO school would be exponentially better. And just because you have no desire for a competitive specialty now, doesn't mean you won't. And you will have better luck with non-competitive specialties in decent areas as a DO.

Don't go caribbean if at all possible.
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How was any information presented incorrect? OP asked if it was acceptable to go to a carib school and practice medicine. The answer to that is unequivocally yes. There are without a doubt disadvantages to attending a carib school -- anyone applying to medical school knows this -- but it is absolutely a legitimate way to earn the right to practice medicine.

Whether you agree with it or not, debates often arise between choosing D.O. or carib. ("comparing" may be a misleading word in my earlier post) but there are countless debates. Though many sdn'ers, including myself, believe D.O. is a more ideal option than carib, interjecting personal biases that make it appear there are NOT debates is misleading and not in the OP's best interest.

It is my understanding that OP is looking to gain as much exposure to different ways to achieve their career goals. It's up to the OP to do some research on the different options presented and make their own decision as to what will be best for them.
 
yankeefan18 said:
How was any information presented incorrect? OP asked if it was acceptable to go to a carib school and practice medicine. The answer to that is unequivocally yes. There are without a doubt disadvantages to attending a carib school -- anyone applying to medical school knows this -- but it is absolutely a legitimate way to earn the right to practice medicine.

Whether you agree with it or not, debates often arise between choosing D.O. or carib. ("comparing" may be a misleading word in my earlier post) but there are countless debates. Though many sdn'ers, including myself, believe D.O. is a more ideal option than carib, interjecting personal biases that make it appear there are NOT debates is misleading and not in the OP's best interest.

It is my understanding that OP is looking to gain as much exposure to different ways to achieve their career goals. It's up to the OP to do some research on the different options presented and make their own decision as to what will be best for them.
Click to expand...

Sorry. The word choice seemed to imply that choosing to go Caribbean could be considered a good choice. If you are not saying that, then I agree and I apologize.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
Sorry. The word choice seemed to imply that choosing to go Caribbean could be considered a good choice. If you are not saying that, then I agree and I apologize.
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Yeah not to worry - I can see how it could be misinterpreted.

Anywho back to the OP: though many of us concur that D.O. would be a better choice, there are those physicians (and aspiring physicians) that simly want the M.D. after their names. You should have a pretty good idea of potential career options at this point. As alluded to earlier, the MCAT is going to be a major pivot point for you in making a decision so study hard and good luck.
 
What exactly happens to those who dont match? Is that it? Game is over, you're not going to be a doctor, find something else?
 
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