Change the Degree to MDO?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Dr Air Jordan

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Messages
39
Reaction score
19
Thoughts

MD vs MDO

Medical Doctor vs. Medical Doctor of Osteopathy

This would be so much more clear for patient populations and pre-meds...

Especially with the ACGME/AOA merger... it would be nice if both degrees at least had names that are similar

25% of the DO stigma would go away from this solution alone

Members don't see this ad.
 
MDO is so utterly stupid I cannot believe people actually entertain this idea.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 23 users
who cares? if you don't want DO after your name and need MD, then don't go to a DO school.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Or just have two degree issuing entities (MD and DO) like dentists do (DDS and DMD) and everyone is none the wiser.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 9 users
Thoughts

MD vs MDO

Medical Doctor vs. Medical Doctor of Osteopathy

This would be so much more clear for patient populations and pre-meds...

Especially with the ACGME/AOA merger... it would be nice if both degrees at least had names that are similar

25% of the DO stigma would go away from this solution alone

How'd you calculate this?

Also isn't it taboo to say "osteopathy" nowadays?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
or be that one overly defensive guy who writes "Dr. Bob Jones" instead of "Bob Jones DO" in your white coat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
MDO is so utterly stupid I cannot believe people actually entertain this idea.

This is so true. If DVM and DMD don't mean physician in the minds of the public (rightfully so, of course), why should MDO?

I'd much rather we as a profession focus on increasing public awareness of the degree than coming up with some other name for the degree.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If it ever changes it should just be a DO to MD degree switch where apart from the issuing medical school no difference can be seen in state licensing boards, hospital privileges, or the general public, i.e. Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, Doctor of Medicine vs. University of Southern California, Doctor of Medicine

Other than that I'd rather just keep what I have. I've been called "Doctor" so many times now, been treated like one, been performing the duties of one, been offered the moonlighting money of one, that my attitude for the most part is "whatever." But if the above happened I'd totally change it because everyone knows the MD degree and I wouldn't have to explain myself on those rare occasions. MDO, MDo, OMD, oMD changes are ridiculous and would still require an adequate explanation
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Honesty screw MD or DO and just change it to "D".

AlteredScale, D.
Would trade in MD if they made a new degree. I could be quickfeet, DX

upload_2015-4-15_2-32-56.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
Thoughts

MD vs MDO

Medical Doctor vs. Medical Doctor of Osteopathy

This would be so much more clear for patient populations and pre-meds...

Especially with the ACGME/AOA merger... it would be nice if both degrees at least had names that are similar

25% of the DO stigma would go away from this solution alone
Are you sure 25% of the stigma would go away? I was thinking more 22%.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Thoughts

MD vs MDO

Medical Doctor vs. Medical Doctor of Osteopathy

This would be so much more clear for patient populations and pre-meds...

Especially with the ACGME/AOA merger... it would be nice if both degrees at least had names that are similar

25% of the DO stigma would go away from this solution alone

MDO, how original... No. This wouldn't change stigma at all and would just cause new confusion.

This is so true. If DVM and DMD don't mean physician in the minds of the public (rightfully so, of course), why should MDO?

I'd much rather we as a profession focus on increasing public awareness of the degree than coming up with some other name for the degree.

Haha yeah, because that has worked so well in changing the general public's awareness and understanding already. Despite the huge success of that campaign, I also think I'd prefer to continue kicking the can than starting from scratch on a new bad venture of public recognition.
 
Seriously OP, how much stigma has anyone here even received from patients about being a DO anyways? Sure there is the ACGME and the whole residency business - which is its own monster. But seriously, on any given day at work, how often does anyone even get a patient that is like NOOOO I would NEVER see a DO? At best they are happy you are a DO and legit think you are special (saw this with 2 docs I shadowed, multiple times each), at worst they dont know what it is and you have to spend 30 seconds explaining it? Again, seems like just SDN hype.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Dream on.



Thoughts

MD vs MDO

Medical Doctor vs. Medical Doctor of Osteopathy

This would be so much more clear for patient populations and pre-meds...

Especially with the ACGME/AOA merger... it would be nice if both degrees at least had names that are similar

25% of the DO stigma would go away from this solution alone
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Degrees are fine as is. Just have LCME accredit both and the AMA and other organizations be inclusive in their speaking of higher level practitioners. People who need to know will, those who don't won't care in the slightest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Degrees are fine as is. Just have LCME accredit both and the AMA and other organizations be inclusive in their speaking of higher level practitioners. People who need to know will, those who don't won't care in the slightest.

Have the LCME accredit two degrees? Why? Just merge the two degrees under MD and get this duplication of effort over with. OPP can survive under MD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Have the LCME accredit two degrees? Why? Just merge the two degrees under MD and get this duplication of effort over with. OPP can survive under MD.

Yes, but the way osteo schools have been behaving lately, I'm not sure the schools themselves would survive the LCME.
 
Yes, but the way osteo schools have been behaving lately, I'm not sure the schools themselves would survive the LCME.

So what? If they can't hack it, let them close. If TCMC and some other new MD schools can get LCME accreditation, then perhaps with some negotiation of certain provisions, the well established DO school too could be accredited.

Here's the rub --- The government likes DO schools. DO schools provide much needed primary care providers as well as providers to rural and other underserved areas. They can also turn out these providers at a relatively low cost to the government. So So long as this tradition is upheld, I feel like the government has enough 'clout' to say "Hey, LCME, look, these schools are providing a very valuable service, let's find some common ground, and recognize that while they may not have hundreds of millions of dollars of NIH grants, they nevertheless are providing a very vital service". Perhaps the LCME could find ways to substitute certain requirements that would still meet their standards.

Look, there's already a looming shortage of residencies, we can't keep turning out an endless supply of people with a medical degree but no way to train them. Look at the lawyers...

Also, MDO is stupid and pointless
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Again? Ah man!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Yes, but the way osteo schools have been behaving lately, I'm not sure the schools themselves would survive the LCME.
Hopefully that's the case. Some DO schools (like Liberty) don't deserve to exist. Those that deserve to exist will probably get a lot of LCME support and become important institutions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hopefully that's the case. Some DO schools (like Liberty) don't deserve to exist. Those that deserve to exist will probably get a lot of LCME support and become important institutions.


I think plenty of DO schools could manage quite well under LCME. But plenty like LMU, NYCOM, MUCOM, WCU, etc are going to run into enormous problems. MUCOM for example has no space in the building and limited parking ( GWU, Case, etc were all put on Prob for this). They'll be fined and put on prob for that. LMU & NYCOM will be on prob for falling under a 90% 6 year graduation rate. WCU will have multiple violations on its record and will almost certainly be at risk of closure.

So personally, like with the cases of DO residencies being shut down. I think it's for the best that those programs that cannot be held to a point that ensures adequate and proper education are shut down.
 
I think plenty of DO schools could manage quite well under LCME. But plenty like LMU, NYCOM, MUCOM, WCU, etc are going to run into enormous problems. MUCOM for example has no space in the building and limited parking ( GWU, Case, etc were all put on Prob for this). They'll be fined and put on prob for that. LMU & NYCOM will be on prob for falling under a 90% 6 year graduation rate. WCU will have multiple violations on its record and will almost certainly be at risk of closure.

So personally, like with the cases of DO residencies being shut down. I think it's for the best that those programs that cannot be held to a point that ensures adequate and proper education are shut down.
LCME requirements seem rather onerous.

-diverse nontuition funding
-substantial research program
-higher full time faculty:student ratios
-stricter requirements in terms of student facilities, I assume (as you point out for Marian).

I'm not sure if any DO program would have an easy time meeting these, provided compromises aren't made.
 
I think plenty of DO schools could manage quite well under LCME. But plenty like LMU, NYCOM, MUCOM, WCU, etc are going to run into enormous problems. MUCOM for example has no space in the building and limited parking ( GWU, Case, etc were all put on Prob for this). They'll be fined and put on prob for that. LMU & NYCOM will be on prob for falling under a 90% 6 year graduation rate. WCU will have multiple violations on its record and will almost certainly be at risk of closure.

So personally, like with the cases of DO residencies being shut down. I think it's for the best that those programs that cannot be held to a point that ensures adequate and proper education are shut down.

For MUCOM what do you mean no space in the building? That's crazy to think a medical school is put on accrediting probation for...parking.

I agree though, you either improve to meet standards that are for the benefit of the profession..or shut down.
 
For MUCOM what do you mean no space in the building? That's crazy to think a medical school is put on accrediting probation for...parking.

I agree though, you either improve to meet standards that are for the benefit of the profession..or shut down.


MUCOM does not have adequate amount of student dedicated areas and study rooms. GWU was put on probation for this same violation a few years ago. LCME has two interests, keep undergraduate medical education to a high standard and to protect students against malignant conditions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
LCME requirements seem rather onerous.

-diverse nontuition funding
-substantial research program
-higher full time faculty:student ratios
-stricter requirements in terms of student facilities, I assume (as you point out for Marian).

I'm not sure if any DO program would have an easy time meeting these, provided compromises aren't made.

Wait...so it is too much to ask a graduate school that trains physicians to have more faculty, more research, and better facilities, while at the same time funding these goals without charging students more? Oh, the humanity!!!

Seriously, people who want to maintain the osteopathic status quo need to stop cheapening the degree. It is strange that those of us who want to see the standards of our schools and residency programs improved are always cast as the DO-haters when nothing could be further from the truth. I don't want any schools or residencies to close, but I also don't want to keep seeing osteopathic students spend all of third year in outpatient clinics. There is a lot of room for improvement. Why do some keep insisting that the bar be lowered?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
I also don't want to keep seeing osteopathic students spend all of third year in outpatient clinics. There is a lot of room for improvement. Why do some keep insisting that the bar be lowered?

Unfortunately, I think the rebuttal you will get from the 'osteopathic establishment' is that, "our mission is to first and foremost train primary care physicians who will serve their communities". Ergo, because most primary care is delivered in an outpatient setting, training their students predominantly in this model would seem both appropriate and sufficient.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Wait...so it is too much to ask a graduate school that trains physicians to have more faculty, more research, and better facilities, while at the same time funding these goals without charging students more? Oh, the humanity!!!

Seriously, people who want to maintain the osteopathic status quo need to stop cheapening the degree. It is strange that those of us who want to see the standards of our schools and residency programs improved are always cast as the DO-haters when nothing could be further from the truth. I don't want any schools or residencies to close, but I also don't want to keep seeing osteopathic students spend all of third year in outpatient clinics. There is a lot of room for improvement. Why do some keep insisting that the bar be lowered?
Has anyone on here ever actually detaited such accounts? By no means am I defending such occurrences (I agree with your post, fyi); however, has anyone actually gone through third year without spending one single rotation inpatient????
 
Has anyone on here ever actually detaited such accounts? By no means am I defending such occurrences (I agree with your post, fyi); however, has anyone actually gone through third year without spending one single rotation inpatient????


Some students from LMU for example. Idk about every rotation, but I know that they on occasion end up doing IM rotations within small clinics and that the school doesn't do its job in getting them hospitals.
 
I think plenty of DO schools could manage quite well under LCME. But plenty like LMU, NYCOM, MUCOM, WCU, etc are going to run into enormous problems. MUCOM for example has no space in the building and limited parking ( GWU, Case, etc were all put on Prob for this). They'll be fined and put on prob for that. LMU & NYCOM will be on prob for falling under a 90% 6 year graduation rate. WCU will have multiple violations on its record and will almost certainly be at risk of closure.

So personally, like with the cases of DO residencies being shut down. I think it's for the best that those programs that cannot be held to a point that ensures adequate and proper education are shut down.
The truth is that COCA doesn't care about us. They only care about their pockets. We need LCME to put an end to them.
 
The truth is that COCA doesn't care about us. They only care about their pockets. We need LCME to put an end to them.

And truth is that we can. There will be more newly minted and trained DOs now more than ever and that number will significantly overtake older DOs. Numbers inevitably will win any conversation.
 
And truth is that we can. There will be more newly minted and trained DOs now more than ever and that number will significantly overtake older DOs. Numbers inevitably will win any conversation.
Probably not. Take me for example. As soon as I get that match envelope, I don't want anything to do with the AOA. It'll always be the ones drinking the kool-aid that will get into the AOA power.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Probably not. Take me for example. As soon as I get that match envelope, I don't want anything to do with the AOA. It'll always be the ones drinking the kool-aid that will get into the AOA power.

Maybe. But I don't think anyone is asking you to march or anything. Just to show support for changes.
 
Has anyone on here ever actually detaited such accounts? By no means am I defending such occurrences (I agree with your post, fyi); however, has anyone actually gone through third year without spending one single rotation inpatient????

For real? I respectfully assume that you are still in your pre-clinical years and have not experienced the wonder and joy of trying to arrange third year rotations.

At COMP and COMP-NW, many students will have one, two, or three of their three required third year "internal medicine" clerkships at outpatient offices. AFAIK, as long as the preceptor is boarded in IM, it counts as "internal medicine." This is not apocryphal anecdote. I'm not the only person who has noticed this phenomenon at my school and others. I worked hard to make sure that all of my IM rotations were inpatient as well as being located in the same town at the same hospital. If I had let me school handle it, who knows where I would've ended up. Many of my classmates were not so lucky. I think that the reason you don't hear more about it is because there are apologists out there that downplay the significance of weaker clinical experiences at DO schools and they tend to shout down dissenting voices as self-loathing DO-haters.

At COMP-NW, certain students rotate with a podiatrist for their "general surgery" rotation. IMHO, if there isn't ****, it isn't general surgery. A 3rd year clerkship should be an introduction into the very basics of a given specialty. I'm not saying DPMs aren't surgeons/do surgeries; I'm just saying this that is not at all a foundational experience for someone who has never rotated on a surgical service.

Unfortunately, I think the rebuttal you will get from the 'osteopathic establishment' is that, "our mission is to first and foremost train primary care physicians who will serve their communities". Ergo, because most primary care is delivered in an outpatient setting, training their students predominantly in this model would seem both appropriate and sufficient.

I agree that many osteopathic schools (mine included) have a clear focus on primary care. It's my opinion that those experiences are what residency is for. Third year clerkships ought be an opportunity to see various specialties in and out of the hospital. In this way, the students have an opportunity to see for themselves what context they would like to practice medicine in. It shouldn't be the default just because we allow the bar to be set so low.

FWIW, I doing think raising the bar has anything to do with changing the initials behind our names.

@meliora27, I am not implying that you're part of the status quo in my second paragraph ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
For real? I respectfully assume that you are still in your pre-clinical years and have not experienced the wonder and joy of trying to arrange third year rotations.

At COMP and COMP-NW, many students will have one, two, or three of their three required third year "internal medicine" clerkships at outpatient offices. AFAIK, as long as the preceptor is boarded in IM, it counts as "internal medicine." This is not apocryphal anecdote. I'm not the only person who has noticed this phenomenon at my school and others. I worked hard to make sure that all of my IM rotations were inpatient as well as being located in the same town at the same hospital. If I had let me school handle it, who knows where I would've ended up. Many of my classmates were not so lucky. I think that the reason you don't hear more about it is because there are apologists out there that downplay the significance of weaker clinical experiences at DO schools and they tend to shout down dissenting voices as self-loathing DO-haters.

At COMP-NW, certain students rotate with a podiatrist for their "general surgery" rotation. IMHO, if there isn't ****, it isn't general surgery. A 3rd year clerkship should be an introduction into the very basics of a given specialty. I'm not saying DPMs aren't surgeons/do surgeries; I'm just saying this that is not at all a foundational experience for someone who has never rotated on a surgical service.



I agree that many osteopathic schools (mine included) have a clear focus on primary care. It's my opinion that those experiences are what residency is for. Third year clerkships ought be an opportunity to see various specialties in and out of the hospital. In this way, the students have an opportunity to see for themselves what context they would like to practice medicine in. It shouldn't be the default just because we allow the bar to be set so low.

FWIW, I doing think raising the bar has anything to do with changing the initials behind our names.

@meliora27, I am not implying that you're part of the status quo in my second paragraph ;)
O, I wasnt trying to debate-- just genuinely curious. Appreciate your input, sir.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
O, I wasnt trying to debate-- just genuinely curious. Appreciate your input, sir.

I should clarify that I have never heard of a single student spending their entire third year in an outpatient setting. I wouldn't be surprised, however. To be honest, if that did happen, it wouldn't be the end of the world if that student knew where their weaknesses might be and how to address them. It just is less than ideal.
 
Degrees are fine as is. Just have LCME accredit both and the AMA and other organizations be inclusive in their speaking of higher level practitioners. People who need to know will, those who don't won't care in the slightest.
Huh?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
At COMP and COMP-NW, many students will have one, two, or three of their three required third year "internal medicine" clerkships at outpatient offices.
There were no tracks in Pomona for the Class of 2017 which had all outpatient IM.

I am surprised to hear about the DPM thing, though. Rotations, especially core rotations, really ought to be done with MDs or DOs.
 
There were no tracks in Pomona for the Class of 2017 which had all outpatient IM.

I am surprised to hear about the DPM thing, though. Rotations, especially core rotations, really ought to be done with MDs or DOs.

All outpatient IM? That sounds terrible.
 
It sounds terrible and it didn't happen in Pomona.

Gotcha. I think I mentally added a comma when I read your post, which made me think it was all outpatient.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
There were no tracks in Pomona for the Class of 2017 which had all outpatient IM.

I am surprised to hear about the DPM thing, though. Rotations, especially core rotations, really ought to be done with MDs or DOs.

I wasn't talking about 2017. Nor did I say that the only scenario was one in which all three IM rotations were outpatient. Even one is a waste of time, especially in our curriculum since third year includes FM and OMM (which is often FM as well).
 
Top