Chicago Area advice

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arin91

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First of all, let me say that this forum is an absolute gem. There is an amazing amount of useful information, and the reader does not need to sift through tons of esoteric garbage to find the real info. Keep it up everyone.

I am currently a third year seriously considering rad. onc. Through my medicine rotation I was able to meet a couple of rad. oncologists and followed them around during the day. Now I want to improve my application by doing research. I am not a student at University of Chicago, but I would like to focus my research efforts at U of C basically because of name recognition, etc. What about Northwestern or Rush? Any advice or thoughts regarding Radiation oncology in the Chicago area would be greatly appreciated. I intend to apply all over the country, but I need to focus on chicago for now because I still need to finish my third year.

Thank you in advance.
Any thoughts and advice are welcome and greatly appreciated.
Arin

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arin --

I'm currently an M4 at Rush going through the app process for Rad Onc. I've done rotations at Rush and NWU and know some folks from the other two programs in the city (UofC and Loyola). The following are just personal opinions from my own experiences and conversations:

1) Rush is probably the bottom of the four currently. After a decade or two of internal turmoil, they seem to be on the road to getting back on track. They are currently in the end stages of the search for a new chair and will likely bring an outsider in who was not involved in the bad blood of the past. Rush rad onc recently got rid of their old cobalt machine and brought in a new puppy so they can start IMRT. They also have just got an impressive infusion of money for updating the program as they see fit. The down side is that they don't stay real busy most of the time. A couple of the faculty are fab, most are average. The residents seem to have a good esprit de corps. Rush has just this year seriously beefed up their conferences and made their new patient QA sessions far more rigorous. The upshot is that Rush is a program in transition, but nobody can tell yet where it will end up. I'm sure whoever is named the new chair will play a major role in defining this.

2) Northwestern is near the other end of the spectrum. They have 3 linacs and a gamma, do a LOT of HDR and prostate brachy and a bit of hyperthermia. A couple of the faculty could easily be at the top tier programs if they really wanted to. Bill Small is one of the best GYN and GI guys around. Kiel and Mittal are great, too. They try to do research at NWU, but it remains primarily a clinical training program. The residents are very cool, and there's nothing malignant about the program at all.

3) UofC is Chicago's research Rad Onc program. The conventional wisdom of this program is similar to what you hear about NCI -- great research but a paucity of patient care. From my conversations with folks there, I'm not sure that's really the case. They work at UofC hospital, the University of Illinois at Chicago hospital, and a community hospital, so these residents get exposure to three very different environments. UofC residents may also have the shortest number of hours per week at the hospital, from what I've seen of Rad Onc programs. If you must stay in Chicago and want to do research, UofC is your best bet. They do some pretty good radiobiology work, but I haven't seen a whole lot of radiation physics research from UofC (I could be wrong, though).

4) Loyola is the last Chicago program, probably #3 if you rank them. Very little substantive research, but I hear they get fantastic clinical exposure. This is the only Chicago rad Onc program out in the burbs, and this likely impacts what they do to some extent. There are a couple of good names at Loyola, and I hear that they work with the residents directly more than the superstars at some programs do. I know the least about this program, so maybe someone more knowledgeable can fill in the gaps....

Again, I'm just a lowly M4 speaking from personal experience and from convos with those at the programs, so take these thoughts for what they're worth.....

Cheers!
 
Thank you for all the info. Very much appreciated. A lof of good info.
Arin
 
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I thought I would put my two cents in as well. I can't speak from personal experience about these programs, but hopefully, I have something useful to add.

First, U of Chicago is considered by most if not all to be a top 10 rad onc program, and is in a level above the other area Chicago programs in terms of national reputation. Its faculty and conferences are often regarded as some of the best in the country. I consider it one of the rad onc power houses along with programs like MSKCC, MD Anderson, Harvard, Michigan, UCSF, etc. Does this really translate into making it a better residency? Not necessarily, but it certainly doesn't hurt at all.

I was in your position when I was an MS III trying to decide on a lab and a research mentor. I can tell you about some of the things that went into my decision. First you need somebody who is going to be a good mentor number one. This does not mean that you have to work with the biggest name in Chicago, but you should steer clear of relative unknowns. You want to work with someone who is nationally known. This way your letter of rec will carry much more weight when you apply (It most likely will be your most important letter as this person will know you very well). Secondly, you need to get published. From an application point of view, if you don't get at least an abstract out of the experience then you are wasting your time. Preferably, you want to be first author. This will boost your application significantly. I would recommend mentioning that you would like a project on which you could be first author when looking for a lab. This may help you later on down the road when it comes time to submit your research for publication. Authorship can get very political at times. One concern about working with junior faculty is that it could be more difficult to be first author. They often work with a senior faculty whom they often feel obligated to place as the senior author, and they are typically first author. You could easily be bumbed to second author regardless of how much work you to do on the project ( I have seen this happen several times). On the other hand, I know some junior faculty who make it easy for med students to be first author because this allows them to get good cheap help for their research. Just have some idea about this before you choose a lab.

I also spoke with residents at programs near my medical school on who they thought would be the best person with whom I should work. I got down to two or three names with this alone and it was the smartest move I made. Residents know the general qualities you will need in a mentor, and more importantly they know rad onc, the polictics of the program, and they know these people much better than you do. Originally, I wanted to do research with the biggest name at my med school's program, but the residents discouraged this. They said he was way too busy to mentor residents let alone med stundents and that I would be compeletly on my own if my project hit a dip in the road (most do at one time or another). A good mentor will be there for you every step of the way, but especially so when your project feel as if it is going nowhere. A good mentor will write an outstanding letter of rec for you. A good mentor will be your number one advisor and ally when you apply. A great mentor will get on the phone and make calls to get you in somewhere.

You also want a project that can be completed a few months before you apply so that you can submit an abstract. If you work on a major clinical study, it could take years to accumulate the data. Not such a bad thing if you were an MS I, but not so helpful for an MS III. There are plenty of basic science, physics projects, and clinical research projects that can be completed in l2 months or less. As for project selection as a medical student, I personally think it is better to do a less groundbreaking project thas a great chance of leading to publication than working on a sexier project which has a greater risk of not getting published. You will look so much better having a first author abstract on the world's most boring rad onc project than talking about why your unpublished research on the succesor to IMRT called APRT (short for Almost Published Research Topic) during your interview. Programs are looking for individuals that have taken the iniative to do research, developed a project, completed a project, and published their results. The reality of research projects is that beauty is typically in the eye of the beholder anyway. Meaning that whatever project you decide on will bore to death 90% of the people who read your application. We all like to think that our projects are special and ground-breaking, but most research is simply about making mundane and incremental contributions to the field.

You would also like your project to really give you an inside track at the program where you do it. Specifically, will doing research at U Chicago be enough to get you in there. It will certainly help you, but will the program seriously consider someone without a Ph.D. for their program. I don't have the answer to that, but I can tell you the following. Last year UCSF, Stanford, MD Anderson, and Harvard had a combined 17 positions in rad onc. 8 of those spots went to women (one of whom had a Ph.D.), the other nine spots went to guys. Of the men, seven were M.D.-Ph.D. and two were regular M.D.'s who had extensive reseach publications and experience (Howard Hughes Fellow, several first author papers, presentations at ASTRO, from prestigous medical schools, etc.). The point is that it can be very difficult to get into some of the very top programs (of which U Chicago is one) without a Ph.D. these days or at least lots of research. If you are doing basic science research at U Chicago, then you might be even in a more difficult position because they will have their pick of many top-notch superstar M.D.-Ph.D.'s with major basic science experience to choose from when you apply. It can be very difficult to stand out in this crowd. Even if the program really likes you it can be difficult to justify choosing an M.D. with one year of research experince with an abstract or two when they will have M.D.-Ph.D. applicants with multiple first author publications in journals such as nature, science, cell, etc. Working with a great mentor at a place like Northwestern may give you all of the benefits of U Chicago for buffing up your application and also boost your chances at program where you may not need a Ph.D. to get in.
 
XRTboy,
Thank you for your input.

U of C is not even in my wildest dreams. I realize competition is very stiff. To be perfectly honest, I'll be happy if I match at all basically because I am not coming from a very prestigous school. But I do not want to use that as an excuse. I'd rather try and fail. Having said that, Northwestern and U of C are the two locations I have narrowed my choices to.
Dr. Bill Small was mentioned previously in one of the posts about Northwestern, and he was also mentioned by one of the Rad Onc attendings at Lutheran General, so I'll try to get in touch with him. Also there is another attending at U of C, Dr. Haraf who I plan on speaking to as well.

Are there any specific attendings who I should contact who have a good reputation in the residents and are also receptive to med students?
Thank you
Arin
 
Arin91,
Research in Rad-Onc is awesome. If you think you might like basic science research, do a lab project by all means. But, if you just want to put it on your CV, why go through the hassle? Lab work is time consuming, not as easy as it seems, and hardly ever works the way you think it is going to (trust me!). Plus you're an M3. When are you going to find time to get into the lab during your rotations? I would consider the option of getting involved in a clinical research investigation. You can do the work at night and on the weekends if necessary, and as a physician you will always be able to use this experience to help you understand the literature.

That's just my opinion, I'm an M4 currently applying to programs.

Joe
 
Joe,
Whatever type of research I do, it will be clinical. I don't have time to do basic lab research. Not to mention that I am did plenty of it in undergrad and I don't want to do it anymore. I will definitly concentrate on some sort of a clinical study, hopefully retrospective chart review or clinical investigaion of a new treatment or something. Hopefully something will become available.

Thank you for your input.
Arin
 
I am bringing this thread back from the dead because I am in the same position as the O.P. was 8 long years ago.

I'm a third year medical student in Chicago(no home program) looking to get involved in clinical research. The best advice I saw in this thread was to ask a resident about who to approach to get involved in research. I've had research advisors that were too busy to help me in the past and would prefer to avoid that pitfall in the future.

Since I don't know any residents in radonc in Chicago I thought I should ask here for advice.

All guidance is very much appreciated. If you have would prefer to contact me in private please do so ;).
 
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