choosing not to fellowship - the road less traveled

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

tirral

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
46
Reaction score
10
Hi SDNeuro,

I'm beginning my Neuro PGY-2 year, and my classmates are all thinking about which subspecialty field of Neurology they may be interested in. As a med student, I thought I mostly want to do general outpatient PP Neurology with some hospital call mixed in, joining a mid-sized group in a mid-sized city someplace. As such, I had not planned on doing a fellowship. I still feel this way. I'd like to learn enough neurophys in PGY3 and 4 to do basic EMG/EEG, but otherwise do not feel particularly strongly about any field of Neurology and would like to see it all.

However, there's this sense in my program (and, from what I gather, universally in Neuro programs) that everybody fellowships, and if you don't, you are hamstringing your chances of landing a job. Those of you who have applied for jobs, do you think this is true? I know the number of people choosing to fellowship has gone up from ~50% to ~90% in the past 10 years. Does this arms race mean everyone in the field has to stay in training for 5-6 years or more?

I'd like to have the confidence to say, "To hell with the crowd, I'm doing it my way," but at the same time I don't want to limit my family's options for locations. My wife is pursuing a social sciences PhD and will finish about the same time I finish residency. She will have the more limited job options between the two of us, so I'd like to be as flexible / competitive as possible for her, so that her career can dictate where we go next. If not fellowshipping is going to hurt us there, then maybe I'm doomed to spend another 2 years at PGY-pay.

Would love to hear from those of you who are general PP neurologists who didn't fellowship. Also interested in hearing from anyone who has been interviewing/hiring recently-graduated Neurologists, in any context (academic or PP). And anyone who is going through the job search now, or who's recently finished looking for jobs. Thanks for any advice you may have.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Hi SDNeuro,

I'm beginning my Neuro PGY-2 year, and my classmates are all thinking about which subspecialty field of Neurology they may be interested in. As a med student, I thought I mostly want to do general outpatient PP Neurology with some hospital call mixed in, joining a mid-sized group in a mid-sized city someplace. As such, I had not planned on doing a fellowship. I still feel this way. I'd like to learn enough neurophys in PGY3 and 4 to do basic EMG/EEG, but otherwise do not feel particularly strongly about any field of Neurology and would like to see it all.

However, there's this sense in my program (and, from what I gather, universally in Neuro programs) that everybody fellowships, and if you don't, you are hamstringing your chances of landing a job. Those of you who have applied for jobs, do you think this is true? I know the number of people choosing to fellowship has gone up from ~50% to ~90% in the past 10 years. Does this arms race mean everyone in the field has to stay in training for 5-6 years or more?

I'd like to have the confidence to say, "To hell with the crowd, I'm doing it my way," but at the same time I don't want to limit my family's options for locations. My wife is pursuing a social sciences PhD and will finish about the same time I finish residency. She will have the more limited job options between the two of us, so I'd like to be as flexible / competitive as possible for her, so that her career can dictate where we go next. If not fellowshipping is going to hurt us there, then maybe I'm doomed to spend another 2 years at PGY-pay.

Would love to hear from those of you who are general PP neurologists who didn't fellowship. Also interested in hearing from anyone who has been interviewing/hiring recently-graduated Neurologists, in any context (academic or PP). And anyone who is going through the job search now, or who's recently finished looking for jobs. Thanks for any advice you may have.

You will not be out of a job if you choose to do general neurology and decline the pursuit of a fellowship. You just have to keep your expectations realistic.

Most community hospital that employ general neurologists, expect the following:
1) Inpatient call duties and lots of it with the bluk of patients consisting of: Dizzy patients, TIAs, strokes, pseudostrokes, anoxic brain injury post cardiac arrest, seizures/pseudoseizures, altered mental status
2) General clinic consisting mainly of dizzy patients, pain patients with pseudoneurological symptoms (e.g. back pain, neck pain, fibromyalgia), MS, Parkinsons, headaches. The latter few you of course may refer to a fellowship trained individual whenever beyond your management or outside of your comfort zone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I ended up deciding to do combined neurophysiology (EMG/EEG). I figure this gives me some extra exposure to these modalities while keeping me a generalist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
^ @tirral did you feel pressured into doing some sort of fellowship by your residency program, or are the jobs available for fellowship-less general neurologists not that great? I'm an MS4 that's been interviewing this cycle for Neuro residency and only 1 program mentioned preparing residents for fellowship-less independent practice (either as a neurohospitalist or community general neurologist).
 
The jobs are available, you just don't hear about them in the academic setting.

I've loved working at a major academic center with access to so many experts, but one of the problems with learning from a bunch of sub-sub-specialists is you get used to the idea that everyone needs to have a very specific niche. In the neuro department at my institution, there are around 100 neurologists, and only a handful practice exclusively general neurology. Maybe 25% practice general neurology plus something else (movement, MS, etc). The majority of the non-hospitalist attendings just see one kind of patient. And the hospitalists don't do clinic.

This leaves the trainee with the impression that all neurology is basically subspecialty neurology, and if you don't do a fellowship, well then you aren't really a neurologist. It is not possible to get a job at my institution without having done a fellowship of some kind (even then, a fellowship is necessary but not sufficient). However there are many community hospitals and practices out there for which this is certainly not the case.

Regarding the necessity of doing a fellowship if planning to go into a community practice, stroke helps with neurohospitalist jobs but it is not a prerequisite. EMG helps with outpatient jobs but it is not a prerequisite. Around here the epilepsy folks seem to all stay in the academy - ours is the only hospital in the area with the resources to support an epilepsy surgery program.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I am a current pgy-1 and am also considering going into pp general neurology without pursuing fellowship. I realize I still have time to decide but I also sense the “you must do a fellowship” mentality at my program too. If I have no desire at all to pursue academic medicine is it really necessary? I feel like the demand for general Neuro will only continue to increase drastically. I am from the suburbs of Chicago and wait times for new pts there are currently 3-4 months. Any other opinions will be greatly appreciated.
 
I am a current pgy-1 and am also considering going into pp general neurology without pursuing fellowship. I realize I still have time to decide but I also sense the “you must do a fellowship” mentality at my program too. If I have no desire at all to pursue academic medicine is it really necessary? I feel like the demand for general Neuro will only continue to increase drastically. I am from the suburbs of Chicago and wait times for new pts there are currently 3-4 months. Any other opinions will be greatly appreciated.
A good chunk of neurologists go into academia so you’ll most likely be advised to do a fellowship. I will only do a fellowship if I either consider an academic career or to gain skills/credentials that are necessary for the job (NCC, neurointerventional, etc). Otherwise I won’t succumb to the scheme.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I am the managing partner of a 5 neurologist group. Two of us have Fellowships and 3 do not. In a general neurology practice it does not make a critical difference as long as you are comfortable with EMG/NCT and EEG.

I will hire you as long as you are competent, personable and hard working.
 
Top