Cincinnati vs Creighton

[Entadus]

I've had a good time reading some "School X vs School Y" threads but I haven't seen this match-up yet. I'm excited to have options for next year and I really did get a good impression of both schools on interview day. Having said that, I am actually pretty torn about this decision.

Similarities/Commonalities
Coming from CA, the distance is going to be far for either school (technically closer to Nebraska than Ohio though). Cost of living should be comparable, right? And the weather too? Both schools have an integrated (systems based) curriculum with optional (podcasted) lectures and are using P/NP grading for M1-M2 years (though Cincinnati uses internal rankings to split the class into Quintiles). Both schools take computerized exams.

Cincy
-cost: 41K/yr (average of M1 47k oos, M2 43.6k, M3 43.6k, M4 29k) eligible for in-state tuition for M2-M4.
PROS:
-better summer research opportunities (?)
-Fantastic children's hospital ranked #3 in the country
-also a super well-respected Emergency Medicine residency program
-I feel like the clinical clerkships will be more robust here, even in IM and Surg
CONS:
-weekly quizzes during M1 year (I hear these become every other week during organ blocks)
-small headache of becoming an OH resident (paperwork, DMV, etc)

Creighton
cost: 42K/yr (52K tuition and fees - 10K scholarship)
PROS:
-won $10k/year Dean's Diversity Scholarship, making COA roughly equal to what I would be paying at Cincy. Would be nice to put on residency applications
-have a college friend who's a current M1 here
-S.O. has family in Nebraska (4 hours away)
-option to do M3/M4 years in Pheonix instead of Omaha
-Jesuit philosophy/emphasis on service and well-being
-friendly Midwest feel
-better abroad opportunities in Spanish-speaking countries during M1-M2 summer as well as between M3-M4

CONS:
-I've heard the CU hospital in Omaha has had difficulties.... maybe the PHX program is a good way to avoid this?

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[newborn11]

If you have the slightest interest in research, go to Cincinnati. I interviewed at Creighton and the impression that I got from both the students and interviewers was that there were very few research opportunities at the school. Also, as you stated, the CU hospital in Omaha is struggling financially. Would you want a struggling hospital to be your home program when you apply for residency? Nevertheless, Creighton does have great global health and community service opportunities (not to mention a very close-knit environment).

Congrats on your multiple acceptances

 

[repititionition]

Cincinnati was, for me, the surprise hit of my interview season.

I left with (and got from subsequent email conversations with current students) the same impression of strength of clinical training combined with a sort of "right-sized" environment where medical students seemed well integrated in to the clinical ecosystem, not an afterthought to resident and fellow education of some real "heavyweight" schools.

Cincinnati's curriculum also resonated with me - the whole integration of radiology and anatomy seemed obvious in retrospect, and suggests a pretty progressive approach to med-ed that I like (bonus, they've moved a few classes through this curriculum so c/o 2018 will not be the guinea pigs). I really like that they use NBME exams for all blocks as well.

Also, -not- listing Cincinnati's physical facilities as a pro is just nuts. An open-essentially-all-the-time health sciences only gym... that's GOOD? Instruments sprinkled literally all over the building? A bizarrely shoehorned in weightroom directly off the med student lounge? Weird LOTR shire-esque study huts in the atrium? I dunno, but as I said, again, Cincinnati made an incredibly positive impression on me that I was NOT expecting and led me to do a bunch more research (web and contact with students) on the school after my acceptance.

One notable "con" for me is that (and this is direct from the summer research coordinator) only slightly more than half of those that seek funding through the summer research program get it. This stands in marked contrast to many schools where they shout loud and proud "everyone who wants funded research between M1 and M2 gets it. He didn't have numbers on those that eventually get funding directly through a clinical department, though. The summer research program is also heavily weighted - nearly exclusively - towards basic science. This is a major con for me, but I have to imagine that most any clinical department could scrape together a few thousand bucks for a student to jump on a clinical research project.

Finally, this is the part of the post where I inflame passions and debate, but if you've seen Cincinnati's match list, it's clear that they're doing something right, and you can just about literally watch he midwestern bias evaporate by looking at the past few years. Last year's list brought many back to the west coast (important to a fellow CA'n).

Good luck with your decision and your waitlists.

 

[alpinism]

I'd go with Cincinnati unless you have some special interest in Creighton or want to end up in Omaha/Phoenix for residency.

You've already hit on most of the important points, but Cincy has better hospitals, better residencies, more research opportunities, costs less, and is in a bigger city with more arts/culture/nightlife/sports.

 

[Entadus]

I guess I was sort of expecting this, but it sure is a shame to see Creighton get clobbered so badly. I feel like everyone really likes Creighton.... until they have to actually turn down another program to attend!

Thanks for the responses so far. Leaning towards Cincy but I am still open to other opinions

 

[call me x]

I guess I was sort of expecting this, but it sure is a shame to see Creighton get clobbered so badly. I feel like everyone really likes Creighton.... until they have to actually turn down another program to attend!

Thanks for the responses so far. Leaning towards Cincy but I am still open to other opinions

I chose Creighton over other options- but they were all equally expensive, so it was an easier decision.....

With your options, having never been to Cincy that does sound like a better option for you, but I just wanted to comment on a few things above:

While Creighton is by no means a research powerhouse, everyone who has wanted to be involved in it had no problems, whether it be in basic or clinical research.

As for the struggling hospital, Creighton is part of the Alegent network and there is no shortage of training opportunities/patients/great attendings; applying to residency hasn't been and will continue to not be problematic for anyone from here.

 

[Entadus]

BUMP. With the costs equalized by a scholarship from Creighton, and with an estimated aid of $Zero from Cincy, I am actually leaning towards Creighton now! Any thoughts?

Would coming from a newer program like the Phoenix track hurt my chances for competitive specialties compared to Cincy?

 

[yoyohomieg5432]

BUMP. With the costs equalized by a scholarship from Creighton, and with an estimated aid of $Zero from Cincy, I am actually leaning towards Creighton now! Any thoughts?

Would coming from a newer program like the Phoenix track hurt my chances for competitive specialties compared to Cincy?

in the OP you said the scholarship makes the cost = the cost of cinci. I'd still go to Cinci even w/ scholarship. As an above poster said, better research, facilities, bigger city with things to do, etc etc.

 

[ace12345]

It's going to be harder for you at Creighton. Even just getting to residency interviews will be a challenge

 

[pyrrion89]

Hey dude. I'd pick Cincinnati over Creighton, even with cost being equal. I think you'll appreciate Ohio over Nebraska once you settle there for at least 4 years. I think Cincinnati has a stronger program, too. Good luck on WL movement!

 

[Entadus]

It's going to be harder for you at Creighton. Even just getting to residency interviews will be a challenge

What are you basing this on? Have you seen the most recent match data at Creighton? (including 15 matching in CA!)
http://www.creighton.edu/publicrela.../2014/march2014/march212014/matchdaynr032114/

I find it hard to believe that someone would be that disadvantaged at the interview stage of the process.

Thanks for the input!

 

[ace12345]

What are you basing this on? Have you seen the most recent match data at Creighton? (including 15 matching in CA!)
http://www.creighton.edu/publicrela.../2014/march2014/march212014/matchdaynr032114/

I find it hard to believe that someone would be that disadvantaged at the interview stage of the process.

Thanks for the input!

Haha I meant physically getting to interviews. You will have to fly every time. And I think a lot of that California data is skewed. A lot of their class is from there.

I personally would go with Cincy, research is a big thing for me. That said, if you really feel better about Creighton then by all means go and never look back. Congrats on all the success.

 

[Member011]

I'd like to point out that from what I saw at Cincinnati there are actually a lot of options for abroad experiences in Spanish-speaking countries. They even have students that do summer research abroad!

Also you didn't list the "friendly mid-west feel" for Cincinnati, but I'd say that everyone I met was very friendly and super helpful. Also any state where people say "pop" instead of "soda" equals midwest for me.

 

[Oso]

Unless you hate Cinci, I would say to go there over Creighton. I think it's a stronger program and will offer more opportunities, especially if you're interested in matching to a competitive specialty. Also, I don't think residency directors will care that you got a 10k/year scholarship, so I wouldn't let that be a factor (since cost of both schools are roughly equal). My $0.02.

 

[drm28922]

I'm currently a student at Creighton and can't say enough good things about it.

As far as research opportunities go I was awarded a research scholarship for this summer, so if you are interested in research the opportunities are there. I'm also working on another research project with a few docs over at the hospital. The Omaha campus is getting a new academic hospital in 2016, so funding is not an issue. The Phoenix campus is excellent as well from what I've heard from M3s and M4s.

100% of our M4 class this year matched this year and 95% matched into their first specialty of choice (many at top tier programs). Many med schools can't say this now that the match has become vastly more competitive the past few years. As far as interviewing at residency programs is concerned you are going to be flying all over no matter where you are located (especially if you are interested in competitive specialities and programs).

In the end your choice should come down to where you think you will be more successful and fit better. This is largely subjective IMO. I chose Creighton because of the way they support their students (and the way the students support each other). If you have any specific questions PM me

 

[kickster]

UCCOM M1 here. UC's biggest strength is that students come out of 4th year EXTREMELY well-prepared for residency. Biggest weakness is pharmacology, they are terrible at teaching pharm, and it's ~20% of Step1 (though I hear they're improving it for the c/o 2018).

While it is very well-respected, I'm not sure that UC's EM residency should be listed as a "pro."

It is awesome having our own gym, but the hours aren't great (IMO). It closes at 9 every night, 4 on Sat, and closed Sun.

Weekly quizzes for 1st semester of M1...yeah that sucked, not gonna lie.

I've always been an OH resident, but I don't think that it takes that much effort to become one. The Financial Aid Office makes sure you stay on top of your stuff for that. Small loophole that many are unaware of is that if you move to northern KY, you can get KY residency immediately and UC has reciprocity with northern KY counties. So...IS tuition for all 4 years.

Lastly, regarding Spanish opportunities at UC, a Spanish elective was just established. I don't know a whole lot about it, but the gist is that you take classes during July after M1 (in the morning only, so you could feasibly still do research). You can count the class as elective credit for 4th year, so you could get another month off in 4th year. Not sure about the translation into actual abroad experience.

 

[blub1212]

Current M2 at Creighton. I just wanted to clarify a few things here.

While Creighton is not a research power-house, there are absolutely opportunities for research and they are restarting their MD/PhD program. Secondly, every single person in my class who wants to be involved in research currently is doing research. In addition to that, most of them were paid to do research over the summer between M1 and M2.

The issue of the hospital having "problems": The old partner (Tenant) sold their share to Alegent. As a result of that transaction, the academic hospital is moving to Bergan-Mercy hospital, which is a much nicer, much bigger hospital. Alegent is investing $300 million over the next two years to make Bergan the new academic center. The move is happening because it is cheaper to renovate Bergan than it is to update the current hospital to the level that Creighton and Alegent would like it to be at.

If having a quiz every week is a big deal to you, M2 year at Creighton has a quiz or exam every week the whole year.

Creighton typically does well in the match, not just to California. Look at the 10 years of data if you would like to: http://medschool.creighton.edu/medicine/admin/staffairs/residency/match/. In reference to your question about Phoenix match, those students matched just as well as the students that stayed in Omaha.

Creighton grades how they give out scholarships, so more money is available the longer you are there. My scholarships have increased every year that I have been here. Creighton has been very generous to me in that aspect. I also agree that residency directors are not going to care that you got a diversity scholarship.

Creighton is not a strictly Pass/Fail system. They have Pass/Fail/Honors. The top 10% of each block honors that block. But there is no ranking whatsoever beyond that.

At the end of the day, you need to pick where you will be happy. Med school sucks no matter how you cut it. Finding a school where you can be happy is a big deal.

Feel free to ask any questions.

 

[deleted448265]

Curious if any Creighton students can address this:

A number of Creighton students have told me that they felt like the school has not prepared them well enough for step 1 (either in terms of some content, or their testing style to get your more acquainted with the test). As I was told, I guess step 1 changed in format around 2009. Prior to this, CU students rocked step 1, but have struggled a little ever since step 1 changed. I have heard that the school has been slowly updating their curriculum to better prep their students for step 1, but my impression is that it hasn't been fast enough and it could be a while before CU is really back up to speed vis a vis their curriculum for better step 1 prep. Understandably, this is concerning -- why make an inherently hard test any more difficult than it needs to be? Can any Creighton students speak to this?

 

[blub1212]

Curious if any Creighton students can address this:

A number of Creighton students have told me that they felt like the school has not prepared them well enough for step 1 (either in terms of some content, or their testing style to get your more acquainted with the test). As I was told, I guess step 1 changed in format around 2009. Prior to this, CU students rocked step 1, but have struggled a little ever since step 1 changed. I have heard that the school has been slowly updating their curriculum to better prep their students for step 1, but my impression is that it hasn't been fast enough and it could be a while before CU is really back up to speed vis a vis their curriculum for better step 1 prep. Understandably, this is concerning -- why make an inherently hard test any more difficult than it needs to be? Can any Creighton students speak to this?

This is absolutely true. The average step 1 scores for Creighton students tends to be under the national average (http://medschool.creighton.edu/?id=1332). We have a new dean and a new associate dean of medical education within that last year, who are working to change this. They hired an NBME consultant to come in and help teach the faculty how to write better boards-style questions, and this summer they will start the process of completely revamping the preclinical curriculum.

While Creighton students tend to do below average on Step 1, they tend to do above average on Step 2.

So, while step 1 scores is a concerning issue with Creighton, I think the new leadership will address it appropriately.

 

[DermViser]

This is absolutely true. The average step 1 scores for Creighton students tends to be under the national average (http://medschool.creighton.edu/?id=1332). We have a new dean and a new associate dean of medical education within that last year, who are working to change this. They hired an NBME consultant to come in and help teach the faculty how to write better boards-style questions, and this summer they will start the process of completely revamping the preclinical curriculum.

While Creighton students tend to do below average on Step 1, they tend to do above average on Step 2.

Wow, all medical schools should do this. That being said, their "item-writing manual" and online interactive item writing tutorial" have been on the website for anyone to see. So it's not like it's a mystery how they write test questions.

Also, all schools' students usually do better on Step 2 vs. Step 1, so that isn't really anything special.

 

[bofocion]

I've had a good time reading some "School X vs School Y" threads but I haven't seen this match-up yet. I'm excited to have options for next year and I really did get a good impression of both schools on interview day. Having said that, I am actually pretty torn about this decision.

Similarities/Commonalities
Coming from CA, the distance is going to be far for either school (technically closer to Nebraska than Ohio though). Cost of living should be comparable, right? And the weather too? Both schools have an integrated (systems based) curriculum with optional (podcasted) lectures and are using P/NP grading for M1-M2 years (though Cincinnati uses internal rankings to split the class into Quintiles). Both schools take computerized exams.

Cincy
-cost: 41K/yr (average of M1 47k oos, M2 43.6k, M3 43.6k, M4 29k) eligible for in-state tuition for M2-M4.
PROS:
-better summer research opportunities (?)
-Fantastic children's hospital ranked #3 in the country
-also a super well-respected Emergency Medicine residency program
-I feel like the clinical clerkships will be more robust here, even in IM and Surg
CONS:
-weekly quizzes during M1 year (I hear these become every other week during organ blocks)
-small headache of becoming an OH resident (paperwork, DMV, etc)

Creighton
cost: 42K/yr (52K tuition and fees - 10K scholarship)
PROS:
-won $10k/year Dean's Diversity Scholarship, making COA roughly equal to what I would be paying at Cincy. Would be nice to put on residency applications
-have a college friend who's a current M1 here
-S.O. has family in Nebraska (4 hours away)
-option to do M3/M4 years in Pheonix instead of Omaha
-Jesuit philosophy/emphasis on service and well-being
-friendly Midwest feel
-better abroad opportunities in Spanish-speaking countries during M1-M2 summer as well as between M3-M4

CONS:
-I've heard the CU hospital in Omaha has had difficulties.... maybe the PHX program is a good way to avoid this?

Naw Bro, just chill and in 5 days Andys going to give both of of us a call and we will be on our way to Hanover. Keep the Faith!
On a more serious note Id lean towards Cincy.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

This is absolutely true. The average step 1 scores for Creighton students tends to be under the national average (http://medschool.creighton.edu/?id=1332). We have a new dean and a new associate dean of medical education within that last year, who are working to change this. They hired an NBME consultant to come in and help teach the faculty how to write better boards-style questions, and this summer they will start the process of completely revamping the preclinical curriculum.

While Creighton students tend to do below average on Step 1, they tend to do above average on Step 2.

So, while step 1 scores is a concerning issue with Creighton, I think the new leadership will address it appropriately.

So what does this mean for the class of 2018? Will these changes be here in time?

 

[blub1212]

So what does this mean for the class of 2018? Will these changes be here in time?

I doubt any meaningful changes will occur by the time class of 2018 arrives in 3 months. It takes a little longer than that to revamp a curriculum.

Something that is important to understand, is while board scores have been below average, it hasn't been like Creighton students have been way below average. The last couple of years, class averages have been a couple of points under the national average. While I find this unacceptable, it still isn't the end of the world. In addition, Creighton students tend to do well in the match (this year's M4s had people match in derm, plastics, neuro surg, urology....) and historically have very good 3rd and 4th years.

 

[Endure]

Since you've already decided on Creighton, I would like to point out that their Phoenix campus includes the Barrow Neurological Institute, which is arguably the most advanced neurological treatment center in the country. Certainly something to look forward to if you're interested in the neurosciences.

 

[Entadus]

Since you've already decided on Creighton, I would like to point out that their Phoenix campus includes the Barrow Neurological Institute, which is arguably the most advanced neurological treatment center in the country. Certainly something to look forward to if you're interested in the neurosciences.

Thanks! Yeah the Barrow institute was a (small) factor in my decision. Probably will be my best bet at Neurosurg (though I am not dead-set on that specialty by any means). All's well that ends well, and so even though it was heartbreaking to withdraw from Cincy, I was surprised the next day with news that Creighton was doubling my scholarship to $20K/year. Woot!

And thanks again to everyone who contributed advice. I read and thought about all of it and came very close to choosing Cincinnati. Like people have pointed out before, SDN'ers will typically prefer the school ranked higher in the USNWR, which is understandable... But I finally decided that Creighton would be a better fit for me due to personal reasons. The philosophy of service and cura personalis is more important to me than the extra reputation that comes with Cincy and its clinical training. While I am not Catholic by any means (or even religious), I'm no atheist either. I am an introspective and spiritual person by nature, and I appreciate the Jesuit approach to contemplation linked to righteous action. I think going to Creighton will be the kick in the pants that I need to become the sort of doctor (and person) I want to be.

So thanks, SDN. I am happy with my decision and looking forward to August.

 

[Endure]

And thanks again to everyone who contributed advice. I read and thought about all of it and came very close to choosing Cincinnati. Like people have pointed out before, SDN'ers will typically prefer the school ranked higher in the USNWR, which is understandable... But I finally decided that Creighton would be a better fit for me due to personal reasons. The philosophy of service and cura personalis is more important to me than the extra reputation that comes with Cincy and its clinical training. While I am not Catholic by any means (or even religious), I'm no atheist either. I am an introspective and spiritual person by nature, and I appreciate the Jesuit approach to contemplation linked to righteous action. I think going to Creighton will be the kick in the pants that I need to become the sort of doctor (and person) I want to be.

So thanks, SDN. I am happy with my decision and looking forward to August.

Onward and upward. You'll do great there. Congratulations!