Class of 2015... How ya doing?

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I relate to this on a scary level :lol:

I am between jobs. About to start something new. Scared, excited, happy, all the feelings really.

Saaaaaame. Except I don't start for another two months, so it's more just trying to keep status quo at the clinic until I'm done. And wondering what the new job will be like.

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I was offered a job this week. But it was only a 4-6 month offer to stay on at current place with no plan for contract renewal at that point. The offer was pretty competitive financially, but hiring in my specialty is so seasonal and supply basically equals demand, so there aren't a lot of options for jobs at baseline and likely not many 4-6 months from now when my contract would expire. I have applications in for a couple full time jobs that I'm pretty excited about so even though it's no guarantee I'll be hired by someone else, I turned down the temporary-but-a-sure-thing job so I can in theory accept one of these full time jobs if its offered. I figure worst case I get an extended unpaid vacation after residency?
 
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So kind of in the same vein we were in at the end of May...

I applied for a part-time lab animal gig. I don't know if I'm doing the "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting it to change" thing. I don't know if it's the right thing to keep going after. I dunno how much of it is feeling like the whole field is "the one that got away". Even on my best days at work, I still can't see myself doing GP for my whole life. Which leaves what exactly?

The job listing didn't give the hours so I have no idea if "part-time" is a day a week or a full 20hrs or what. I'm not greatly optimistic for my chances. I have no idea what I'll do if I do get it and it requires cutting back my current GP work. I have no idea how they will react to the fact that I'm half-way done being pregnant. I just saw the ad and applied :shrug:
 
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So kind of in the same vein we were in at the end of May...

I applied for a part-time lab animal gig. I don't know if I'm doing the "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting it to change" thing. I don't know if it's the right thing to keep going after. I dunno how much of it is feeling like the whole field is "the one that got away". Even on my best days at work, I still can't see myself doing GP for my whole life. Which leaves what exactly?

The job listing didn't give the hours so I have no idea if "part-time" is a day a week or a full 20hrs or what. I'm not greatly optimistic for my chances. I have no idea what I'll do if I do get it and it requires cutting back my current GP work. I have no idea how they will react to the fact that I'm half-way done being pregnant. I just saw the ad and applied :shrug:
You got this!
 
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So kind of in the same vein we were in at the end of May...

I applied for a part-time lab animal gig. I don't know if I'm doing the "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting it to change" thing. I don't know if it's the right thing to keep going after. I dunno how much of it is feeling like the whole field is "the one that got away". Even on my best days at work, I still can't see myself doing GP for my whole life. Which leaves what exactly?

The job listing didn't give the hours so I have no idea if "part-time" is a day a week or a full 20hrs or what. I'm not greatly optimistic for my chances. I have no idea what I'll do if I do get it and it requires cutting back my current GP work. I have no idea how they will react to the fact that I'm half-way done being pregnant. I just saw the ad and applied :shrug:

You’ll never know unless you apply! Crossing my fingers for ya :)
 
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I'm having another flare of "I don't wanna be a SAGP forever." I think part of it is I've been off work on maternity leave and then they day before I was supposed to go back tested positive for COVID. I don't want to be a SAHM but I'm dreading returning to the same ol' BS that one of my hospitals deals with. Boss lady is becoming increasingly distant from her hospitals to the point that she isn't seeing any of the crap that's happening. And when I bring it up it's kind of like "Ehhh." I really like my other coworkers, how the main practice is run (unfortunately the second practice has been allowed to slip with supervision) and the quality of medicine we offer. But I don't want to keep working at the second hospital if the same stuff is going to continue. I guess I need to sack up and tell my boss that specifically. Main hospital is further away and slightly longer hours than the second hospital but I enjoy working there more.

I've considered looking for another job (I don't think that's the answer yet) but I just can't get excited about SAGP. However, I feel like there are limited other options, either within vet med or outside of it and that's frustrating :(
 
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I'm having another flare of "I don't wanna be a SAGP forever." I think part of it is I've been off work on maternity leave and then they day before I was supposed to go back tested positive for COVID. I don't want to be a SAHM but I'm dreading returning to the same ol' BS that one of my hospitals deals with. Boss lady is becoming increasingly distant from her hospitals to the point that she isn't seeing any of the crap that's happening. And when I bring it up it's kind of like "Ehhh." I really like my other coworkers, how the main practice is run (unfortunately the second practice has been allowed to slip with supervision) and the quality of medicine we offer. But I don't want to keep working at the second hospital if the same stuff is going to continue. I guess I need to sack up and tell my boss that specifically. Main hospital is further away and slightly longer hours than the second hospital but I enjoy working there more.

I've considered looking for another job (I don't think that's the answer yet) but I just can't get excited about SAGP. However, I feel like there are limited other options, either within vet med or outside of it and that's frustrating :(
I feel you so hard on this. It’s so sad. I actually love being a gp. But I can’t think of a gp hospital I would be happy to be employed at.
 
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I'm having another flare of "I don't wanna be a SAGP forever." I think part of it is I've been off work on maternity leave and then they day before I was supposed to go back tested positive for COVID. I don't want to be a SAHM but I'm dreading returning to the same ol' BS that one of my hospitals deals with. Boss lady is becoming increasingly distant from her hospitals to the point that she isn't seeing any of the crap that's happening. And when I bring it up it's kind of like "Ehhh." I really like my other coworkers, how the main practice is run (unfortunately the second practice has been allowed to slip with supervision) and the quality of medicine we offer. But I don't want to keep working at the second hospital if the same stuff is going to continue. I guess I need to sack up and tell my boss that specifically. Main hospital is further away and slightly longer hours than the second hospital but I enjoy working there more.

I've considered looking for another job (I don't think that's the answer yet) but I just can't get excited about SAGP. However, I feel like there are limited other options, either within vet med or outside of it and that's frustrating :(

Yeah, for all the talk about how there is "so much more than SA GP", it really is not easy to break into that "more". Industry and government jobs are very difficult to come by. Most industry jobs want you to have prior experience in industry. I seriously started looking for anything outside of SA GP within about 2 months after graduation and it took just over 3 years to find something, finally. It wasn't that there weren't the occasional good days in SA GP, I just didn't realize how bored I would get with it. Like it barely scratches the surface of what I had learned/knew and what I could do. It was very much, for me, not intellectually stimulating and the constant gripes by people over and over again, plus all the management issues, lack of staff with adequate training, it took a huge toll.

I cringe every time I see someone post in a vet facebook group about being unhappy and everyone is all "just leave" or "there is more than GP".. in theory that is nice, in reality it isn't always practical to just leave or to find that elusive outside of GP job.
 
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Yeah, for all the talk about how there is "so much more than SA GP", it really is not easy to break into that "more". Industry and government jobs are very difficult to come by. Most industry jobs want you to have prior experience in industry. I seriously started looking for anything outside of SA GP within about 2 months after graduation and it took just over 3 years to find something, finally. It wasn't that there weren't the occasional good days in SA GP, I just didn't realize how bored I would get with it. Like it barely scratches the surface of what I had learned/knew and what I could do. It was very much, for me, not intellectually stimulating and the constant gripes by people over and over again, plus all the management issues, lack of staff with adequate training, it took a huge toll.

I cringe every time I see someone post in a vet facebook group about being unhappy and everyone is all "just leave" or "there is more than GP".. in theory that is nice, in reality it isn't always practical to just leave or to find that elusive outside of GP job.
I'm really curious about this, would ER qualify about outside of GP? Would you consider that difficult to break into? Was that not an option for you for whatever reason? Thanks for your insight, I always enjoy it!
 
I'm really curious about this, would ER qualify about outside of GP? Would you consider that difficult to break into? Was that not an option for you for whatever reason? Thanks for your insight, I always enjoy it!

Ahaha no ER is super easy to break into. They’re desperate. Very few people want to. Or rather, not nearly as many people as needed want to. Not a good option for the people who want out of gp for the most part.
 
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I'm really curious about this, would ER qualify about outside of GP? Would you consider that difficult to break into? Was that not an option for you for whatever reason? Thanks for your insight, I always enjoy it!

ER is fairly easy to break into, though it does depend a little on the ER but for the most part, you can get an ER job easily.

However, 80-85% of what I saw on ER was very similar to GP... limping, skin, emergency ear infections, V/D, dog bite wounds. The other 15-20% were true emergencies and that's being generous, probably more like 10-15%... and you still have all the same or similar client complaints, management issues, +/- staff training issues. For some people ER is enough different than GP that it works for them, for others it really isn't all that much different.
 
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ER is fairly easy to break into, though it does depend a little on the ER but for the most part, you can get an ER job easily.

However, 80-85% of what I saw on ER was very similar to GP... limping, skin, emergency ear infections, V/D, dog bite wounds. The other 15-20% were true emergencies and that's being generous, probably more like 10-15%... and you still have all the same or similar client complaints, management issues, +/- staff training issues. For some people ER is enough different than GP that it works for them, for others it really isn't all that much different.
Thank you. I appreciate you guys giving these perspectives.
 
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@Coopah I don’t know that it’s that much different but I think in one that is well-run and with specialists in-house it may be different enough if that makes sense? Still a lot of the same issues.

@DVMDream seriously, it is NOT the versatile degree people make it out to be, at least anymore. I’ve considered applying for lab animal residencies again but there’s only one program remotely nearby and it’s not really that close and I’m sure that as an established practitioner I’m not as competitive as someone just out of school.

I make good money and I don’t know that I would leave vet med entirely but once I pay my loans off it will sure be tempting. There are a lot of things about SAGP I enjoy but there are also things that I don’t enjoy and that I can’t see myself putting up with until I retire. Thanks for commiserating everyone :)
 
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I’ve considered applying for lab animal residencies again but there’s only one program remotely nearby and it’s not really that close and I’m sure that as an established practitioner I’m not as competitive as someone just out of school.
[Anecdotal and different specialty but . . .] Several of the pathology residents and faculty I used to work with came to the program directly from small animal practice. They had done anywhere from 3 years to 10+ years in gp before applying. I don't know anything about how that factored into their applications, but they still got there!
 
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[Anecdotal and different specialty but . . .] Several of the pathology residents and faculty I used to work with came to the program directly from small animal practice. They had done anywhere from 3 years to 10+ years in gp before applying. I don't know anything about how that factored into their applications, but they still got there!

That’s good to know! I think I could get a residency in theory, but the handful of people I’ve spoken to at the programs closest to me have said it’s harder because you’re further out from your experiences (and connections) and some program directors don’t want to have to deal with someone who has already established themselves as a practitioner versus a more malleable new grad. (Which I think has more to do with a person’s personality than how long they’ve been out of school but what do know?) Knowing what I know now, I would have gone for the residency interviews I got after the match. But hindsight is always 20/20 right?

It’s just frustrating to have an expensive, advanced degree that touts such versatility when in reality the field is becoming more and more specialized. I feel like I wouldn’t even be able to get a job as a lab animal caretaker or curator at a local zoo/park because I’m overqualified. I’ve toyed with the idea of applying to a teaching position at a local CC but it’s part-time and the pay cut would be tough.
 
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@DVMDream seriously, it is NOT the versatile degree people make it out to be, at least anymore. I’ve considered applying for lab animal residencies again but there’s only one program remotely nearby and it’s not really that close and I’m sure that as an established practitioner I’m not as competitive as someone just out of school.

I make good money and I don’t know that I would leave vet med entirely but once I pay my loans off it will sure be tempting. There are a lot of things about SAGP I enjoy but there are also things that I don’t enjoy and that I can’t see myself putting up with until I retire. Thanks for commiserating everyone :)

If money weren’t an issue, I kinda want to just work as a tech or receptionist. Become a super support staff. It would be nice to be able to just leave work at work and be done at the end of the day. Wouldn’t it be amazing to just clean up after the last patient and go home and not worry about anything until the next day? It would be amazing if I could just have a new grad be a doctor and I could just mentor *out back* to get the dr fix but not have to deal with any of the other **** because I’m “just a tech/receptionist.” Hell whatevs, I can help fish out dropped pedicles and root tips. I would schedule appts in a smart fashion so that we could maximize patients coming through and revenue without overwhelming the doctor. Just come out of the exam room and tell me what you want done and I’ll get it done for you, sedation and all if you want. I could even make those annoying call backs on behalf of the doctor. I’m really good at dealing with annoying and irate clients. I just don’t like to be doing that when I have gazillion other things to do. Like I could be a DVM’s dream support staff. I will make them look amazing! I just no longer wish to deal with practice owners and managers as the associate DVM.
 
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If money weren’t an issue, I kinda want to just work as a tech or receptionist. Become a super support staff. It would be nice to be able to just leave work at work and be done at the end of the day. Wouldn’t it be amazing to just clean up after the last patient and go home and not worry about anything until the next day? It would be amazing if I could just have a new grad be a doctor and I could just mentor *out back* to get the dr fix but not have to deal with any of the other **** because I’m “just a tech/receptionist.” Hell whatevs, I can help fish out dropped pedicles and root tips. I would schedule appts in a smart fashion so that we could maximize patients coming through and revenue without overwhelming the doctor. Just come out of the exam room and tell me what you want done and I’ll get it done for you, sedation and all if you want. I could even make those annoying call backs on behalf of the doctor. I’m really good at dealing with annoying and irate clients. I just don’t like to be doing that when I have gazillion other things to do. Like I could be a DVM’s dream support staff. I will make them look amazing! I just no longer wish to deal with practice owners and managers as the associate DVM.
Have you found that vet practice owners are better than non vet practice owners? What specifically grated on you the most? I'm interested in owning a practice one day because I think I'd be pretty damn good at it and I want to do it right. So what are some key things that would make you happy with a practice?
 
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Have you found that vet practice owners are better than non vet practice owners? What specifically grated on you the most? I'm interested in owning a practice one day because I think I'd be pretty damn good at it and I want to do it right. So what are some key things that would make you happy with a practice?

I’ve worked for both private and corporate and they both grated on me in different ways. I don’t think it’s legal in my state for a rando nonvet to own a vet hospital (nor would I ever work for such a hospital). I hate that associates are always scapegoated for the most asinine things. I hate how for some reason receptionists and practice managers hold a lot of power, and effectively make lives difficult for vets and often time techs.

For corporate, the management structure is annoying and if your hospital and local management are duds, you’re SOL. Though I felt a lot more appreciated when I worked corporate. My efforts were acknowledged and rewarded, and that was nice. But staff being paid **** and unhappy, and management missing the big picture and understaffing support staff to control payroll made it way less efficient. I could see way more patients and make way more revenue if I could leverage more staff. When corporate makes annoying decisions that then annoy clients, we get the brunt of dealing with the grievances and have no way to address it.

Private practice is a monarchy. Your only recourse if you don’t like the king is to leave the kingdom. Anything that your boss says goes. And the boss is often outdated (not across the board, but it’s hard to stay current for a lot of owners who had been working insane hours to keep their businesses afloat). And boss is often not a good business person. Or a good HR person. I don’t ever want anyone to dictate how I do medicine, especially if it is not to elevate quality and they don’t have evidence to back it up. Sure, I will absolutely consider the cost benefits of xyz and totally get that things have to make business sense. But it kills my soul when boss essentially commits malpractice because even if I steer far clear of boss’s cases, I end up involved with those cases eventually. Also, I will never answer to lay staff, but again this goes back to receptionists and practice managers who have no clue end up with a lot of power in many clinics. I hate bosses that try to micromanage what I do. If what I’m doing is medically sound, is profitable, clients are happy, and the staff doesn’t have issues with it, I need to be left alone. I don’t need to be a punching bag for whatever issues boss is going through. A lot of people in vet med suffer from mental illness. Honestly that’s probably a component of how people become vets. And I 100% understand how debilitating it is, but it should not affect how I am treated. Also, when you have an assistant or tech or manager who thinks they are a doctor, boss needs to shut that **** down ASAP. Issues boil because that kind of behavior is allowed.

There is only so much I can do in a day. If boss makes me responsible for more than that, either quality is going to go down, something isn’t going to get done, or I’m going to do everything well to the detriment of my own health. And 99% of the time, it’s going to end up the latter. Owners tend to become owners because they want control over everything and/or want associates to deal with **** they don’t want to anymore.

I hear practice owners saying they are great practice owners all the time. I know very few associates who feel their boss is awesome. Most who are still relatively happy say they like being a vet despite their employer, not because of them. Sometimes it takes a year or two before the rose colored glasses come off. So good luck with that.

Also, I think a lot of it has to do with the nature of the job itself. There are a lot of stressors on all sides both on associates and owners. I think it’s hard to actually be a good boss, not necessarily that these people are evil or anything.
 
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I’ve worked for both private and corporate and they both grated on me in different ways. I don’t think it’s legal in my state for a rando nonvet to own a vet hospital (nor would I ever work for such a hospital). I hate that associates are always scapegoated for the most asinine things. I hate how for some reason receptionists and practice managers hold a lot of power, and effectively make lives difficult for vets and often time techs.

For corporate, the management structure is annoying and if your hospital and local management are duds, you’re SOL. Though I felt a lot more appreciated when I worked corporate. My efforts were acknowledged and rewarded, and that was nice. But staff being paid **** and unhappy, and management missing the big picture and understaffing support staff to control payroll made it way less efficient. I could see way more patients and make way more revenue if I could leverage more staff. When corporate makes annoying decisions that then annoy clients, we get the brunt of dealing with the grievances and have no way to address it.

Private practice is a monarchy. Your only recourse if you don’t like the king is to leave the kingdom. Anything that your boss says goes. And the boss is often outdated (not across the board, but it’s hard to stay current for a lot of owners who had been working insane hours to keep their businesses afloat). And boss is often not a good business person. Or a good HR person. I don’t ever want anyone to dictate how I do medicine, especially if it is not to elevate quality and they don’t have evidence to back it up. Sure, I will absolutely consider the cost benefits of xyz and totally get that things have to make business sense. But it kills my soul when boss essentially commits malpractice because even if I steer far clear of boss’s cases, I end up involved with those cases eventually. Also, I will never answer to lay staff, but again this goes back to receptionists and practice managers who have no clue end up with a lot of power in many clinics. I hate bosses that try to micromanage what I do. If what I’m doing is medically sound, is profitable, clients are happy, and the staff doesn’t have issues with it, I need to be left alone. I don’t need to be a punching bag for whatever issues boss is going through. A lot of people in vet med suffer from mental illness. Honestly that’s probably a component of how people become vets. And I 100% understand how debilitating it is, but it should not affect how I am treated. Also, when you have an assistant or tech or manager who thinks they are a doctor, boss needs to shut that **** down ASAP. Issues boil because that kind of behavior is allowed.

There is only so much I can do in a day. If boss makes me responsible for more than that, either quality is going to go down, something isn’t going to get done, or I’m going to do everything well to the detriment of my own health. And 99% of the time, it’s going to end up the latter. Owners tend to become owners because they want control over everything and/or want associates to deal with **** they don’t want to anymore.

I hear practice owners saying they are great practice owners all the time. I know very few associates who feel their boss is awesome. Most who are still relatively happy say they like being a vet despite their employer, not because of them. Sometimes it takes a year or two before the rose colored glasses come off. So good luck with that.

Also, I think a lot of it has to do with the nature of the job itself. There are a lot of stressors on all sides both on associates and owners. I think it’s hard to actually be a good boss, not necessarily that these people are evil or anything.
Thank you! This is extremely helpful. What I hear is that you feel like a lot of the time you end up being the outlet for stressors of either the practice manager or the boss, whomever that might be, and that you want more independence for how you treat your patients. You want to be fairly compensated and have the respect and support staff that you deserve. I've definitely got the Rose colored glasses on still but if I ever do move into practice ownership I hope I can accomplish this.
 
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Have you found that vet practice owners are better than non vet practice owners? What specifically grated on you the most? I'm interested in owning a practice one day because I think I'd be pretty damn good at it and I want to do it right. So what are some key things that would make you happy with a practice?


I could talk all day long about this. Like, really, could get into some absolutely asinine things I have seen throughout the past 4 years.

I have worked at a clinic that did have a non-vet practice owner and holy hell... it was worse than anything else I have ever seen. This isn't to say the ones owned by vets were any better, but damn I am surprised this clinic is still open. It was the place of nightmares. They were legitimately bragging about the fact they only have on the job trained techs, which, I was one, there is nothing necessarily "wrong" with that, but please, acknowledge there can be lack of knowledge present there. If I tell you it is becoming, has been and is very clearly a glaringly obvious problem with the clinic, don't brush it off and tell me "you have the best staff around", when I have had to spent weeks stopping your staff from killing themselves, patients or expensive medical equipment, it isn't cute to brag about how "awesome" your untrained staff is.

Overall, I would say what drove me insane about practice from the owners, office managers, etc was the unwillingness to listen to me. It didn't matter what it was regarding, but it felt like I had zero voice/input/opinion, that I was just a warm body there to churn and burn through cases as quickly as possible, treat and street the patient and get on to the next so that the revenue could keep flowing. I think what would help associate satisfaction is to just listen to what we are saying. If I say "hey, can you please punt that potentially blocked cat to ER, I really don't feel comfortable adding that into the schedule given what else I have going on today," just trust me. Trust my judgement. Don't look at the schedule and go "I don't see the big deal, you can fit it in between this vaccine and this ear appointment." The schedule isn't the ONLY thing a vet is doing. I may have planned on calling Mrs. Jones during that maybe 10 minute reprieve to tell her that Fluffy does indeed have lymphoma. Don't tell me I can do the cat during lunch. It is MY lunch, if I want to volunteer what should be my mental break through the day for a patient that is one thing, but don't be volunteering MY time for me. Maybe I had plans to call an ill relative during lunch. Or get an update on my nieces/nephews simple medical procedure, but I have been thinking about it all day. Or maybe my own pet is in the ER and I want to call for an update during my lunch. Maybe I was planning on calling to schedule my own doctor appointments during lunch. I don't, didn't and try to not discuss my personal life during work, unless it is necessary (aka I might need to leave because of what is going on).

Overall, the hierarchy in almost every clinic was that of listening to office managers, receptionists and vet techs/assistants over the associate DVM. The opinion of lay staff was always held in higher regard than that of the associate. If a receptionist didn't like you, your life became hell from the rest of the staff as well. Knock down anyone who attempts to take the position of "dr tech" .... this is the tech who has been present for usually 5+ years and thinks they are basically a DVM, they ignore the associate vet or vets, do exactly the opposite of what they say, tell clients things that aren't true, etc... if your clinic can't survive without this person, your clinic can't survive.

Remember that your associates are what bring in the money to the clinic, not the OM, techs, reception, etc. The associates. Treat everyone well. Don't give your receptionists power over your vets. I can't tell you how many clinics I have been in that have told their receptionists to ignore when an associate says that they can't see something because of a full schedule and to schedule everything, anything and anyone. When you pass that power to a receptionist to basically veto what the DVM says, it sets everything up for failure.

I could keep going. I have so many examples of how clinics are so poorly set up to prioritize basically anyone and everyone over the associate DVM, it outstanding. I wish I had known what all those "other things" vets were quietly dealing with that really as a vet tech I would have never been able to see/witness.
 
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I wish I had known what all those "other things" vets were quietly dealing with that really as a vet tech I would have never been able to see/witness.

This. What people don’t understand is that techs, managers, receptionists, or whatever have NO IDEA what it’s like to be in our shoes whatsoever. Many think they do. Many think they know what makes a good doctor. Some even think they know better. But they don’t. They have no idea what concerns we have, what we actually fear, and what stressors we actually have or what our motivations really are.
 
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Knock down anyone who attempts to take the position of "dr tech" .... this is the tech who has been present for usually 5+ years and thinks they are basically a DVM, they ignore the associate vet or vets, do exactly the opposite of what they say, tell clients things that aren't true, etc..

This is actually one of the things I am most afraid of going into practice after graduation and why I'm considering other careers besides straight clinical medicine. How prevalent do you guys think these kinds of techs are? We're taught to appreciate how helpful techs are (and most in our teaching hospital are phenomenal), but what is that line between them being helpful and them trying to "play doctor" through or in spite of you?
 
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I really do appreciate my clinic so much after hearing so much from others. It's a father-son duo who own the place, and while there is definitely some PITA that comes from having family involved, they take probably 80% of my suggestions and I think a lot of my personal job satisfaction is that I've helped build, improve this clinic in the couple years I've been here.

Practice manager does practice manager stuff. Vets do vet stuff. Reception... well, we won't talk about the receptionists. :laugh: We're salaried with quarterly bonuses built on across-clinic production, not individually, which I think is a really reasonable way to still encourage people to work hard but there's no need to tussle about who gets credit for what and whatnot. I anesthetized and did 80% of the chart for my boss' pyometra this morning because I had a second - he knocked out two rooms in the late afternoon so I could get another pyo on the table this afternoon. When we had an insulin OD'd hot mess express whose owner loves me come in while I was mid extractions, the tech threw in the IV, he pushed the dextrose and put on the freestyle libre, I called the owner and there's no worry about who gets credit for the labwork or the hospitalization or whatever, animals just get fixed.

Yeah it's really annoying when my other boss takes three hours to make phone calls in the morning and sees nada patients. But there are so many other benefits that it's one of the major things keeping me at my current job despite the commute really sucking.
 
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I could keep going. I have so many examples of how clinics are so poorly set up to prioritize basically anyone and everyone over the associate DVM, it outstanding. I wish I had known what all those "other things" vets were quietly dealing with that really as a vet tech I would have never been able to see/witness.
Reading these experiences make me feel really lucky about where I work. Doctors have the final say in what gets put on their schedules, and receptionists know to come ask when they have someone on the phone they're trying to squeeze in. There has also been a lot of training about what's an actual emergency and what's a client emergency, and how to shift the latter category into actual open appointment slots instead of asking us about the super needy people every time. And I feel lucky that we have an emergency hospital in town that we can shift cases to when we're just too busy but they obviously need attention today.

There are still days when I don't get my lunch, but it's usually my choice because I want to sedate something or I added an extra surgery that I probably shouldn't have but I really wanted to do it. And sometimes it's an owner's fault because they scheduled a vaccine appointment, but they really meant that their ancient animal is trying to die. But I generally don't get pressured into doing things I don't want to do, and I really love that about my job.
 
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This is actually one of the things I am most afraid of going into practice after graduation and why I'm considering other careers besides straight clinical medicine. How prevalent do you guys think these kinds of techs are? We're taught to appreciate how helpful techs are (and most in our teaching hospital are phenomenal), but what is that line between them being helpful and them trying to "play doctor" through or in spite of you?

It really depends on the practice culture. I’ve worked at two hospitals where no one would dare. It was very clear what was doctor stuff, and everyone knew not to toe that line. I’ve worked at two hospitals where it was a huge problem. A lot of it has to do with what is *allowed* to happen. In a clinic where it is not tolerated, those techs fall in line or they leave.

The thing is, the most experienced and knowledgeable techs know enough to know the harm they would be doing to play doctor. I actually know a couple of techs who are knowledgeable enough that they could prob play one and be fine, but they are never the ones to cross that line. It’s usually a “little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing” type of situation. The ones who like to play doctor are stupid enough to think the know enough.
 
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It's a father-son duo who own the place, and while there is definitely some PITA that comes from having family involved, they take probably 80% of my suggestions and I think a lot of my personal job satisfaction is that I've helped build, improve this clinic in the couple years I've been here
Ooh, how does that compare to the husband/wife duos? I worked for a husband/wife situation and seriously, never again. Husband manager was a psychopath. I didn’t mind the wife until the very end, but I had very little respect for her for being married to that twit on a personal level and also for allowing him to wreck the place pissing off associate after associate, client after client. It takes a special someone to burn through 8 doctors in a year.

But the second half of that sentence I think is what it comes down to. Being able to make impact on the hospital and being appreciated for it.

For one of my jobs, I pretty much built the place from the ground up, trained staff, and set up a well oiled machine. In a year since the clinic was acquired, revenue tripled. I never said no out of my own volition as long as my staff was ok with it, and performed so many after hours procedures and surgeries and emergencies and house call euthanasias beyond my shift and helped grow the business. There were multiple months where out of 2 full time doctors and 2 part time doctors, I brought in 50% of gross. The clinic developed a really good reputation in the community. I did all that on straight salary after taking a $30-40k pay cut from my last job. I wanted to be a part of something bigger I guess. But long story short, I ended up feeling super unappreciated. And my mentally ill absentee boss (this is not an insult, she legitimately cannot function due to mental illness sometimes) it turns out also had major control issues and felt the need to always do annoying ass things to make my life difficult for no reason just to show me she was the one in control. At one point I had a sit down where I said either she trusts me or she doesn’t, because I’m out of there if she doesn’t. Then she gave me a sob story about how it’s her and not me, and that she’s not at a good place and has issues and she’s taking it out on me. So I said cool, fine, we can try this again. Well ya fool me once, shame on you, ya fool me twice.... so I left. Yeah after this, never again. I’m not pouring my heart and soul into something that is not mine.
 
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I could talk all day long about this. Like, really, could get into some absolutely asinine things I have seen throughout the past 4 years.

I have worked at a clinic that did have a non-vet practice owner and holy hell... it was worse than anything else I have ever seen. This isn't to say the ones owned by vets were any better, but damn I am surprised this clinic is still open. It was the place of nightmares. They were legitimately bragging about the fact they only have on the job trained techs, which, I was one, there is nothing necessarily "wrong" with that, but please, acknowledge there can be lack of knowledge present there. If I tell you it is becoming, has been and is very clearly a glaringly obvious problem with the clinic, don't brush it off and tell me "you have the best staff around", when I have had to spent weeks stopping your staff from killing themselves, patients or expensive medical equipment, it isn't cute to brag about how "awesome" your untrained staff is.

Overall, I would say what drove me insane about practice from the owners, office managers, etc was the unwillingness to listen to me. It didn't matter what it was regarding, but it felt like I had zero voice/input/opinion, that I was just a warm body there to churn and burn through cases as quickly as possible, treat and street the patient and get on to the next so that the revenue could keep flowing. I think what would help associate satisfaction is to just listen to what we are saying. If I say "hey, can you please punt that potentially blocked cat to ER, I really don't feel comfortable adding that into the schedule given what else I have going on today," just trust me. Trust my judgement. Don't look at the schedule and go "I don't see the big deal, you can fit it in between this vaccine and this ear appointment." The schedule isn't the ONLY thing a vet is doing. I may have planned on calling Mrs. Jones during that maybe 10 minute reprieve to tell her that Fluffy does indeed have lymphoma. Don't tell me I can do the cat during lunch. It is MY lunch, if I want to volunteer what should be my mental break through the day for a patient that is one thing, but don't be volunteering MY time for me. Maybe I had plans to call an ill relative during lunch. Or get an update on my nieces/nephews simple medical procedure, but I have been thinking about it all day. Or maybe my own pet is in the ER and I want to call for an update during my lunch. Maybe I was planning on calling to schedule my own doctor appointments during lunch. I don't, didn't and try to not discuss my personal life during work, unless it is necessary (aka I might need to leave because of what is going on).

Overall, the hierarchy in almost every clinic was that of listening to office managers, receptionists and vet techs/assistants over the associate DVM. The opinion of lay staff was always held in higher regard than that of the associate. If a receptionist didn't like you, your life became hell from the rest of the staff as well. Knock down anyone who attempts to take the position of "dr tech" .... this is the tech who has been present for usually 5+ years and thinks they are basically a DVM, they ignore the associate vet or vets, do exactly the opposite of what they say, tell clients things that aren't true, etc... if your clinic can't survive without this person, your clinic can't survive.

Remember that your associates are what bring in the money to the clinic, not the OM, techs, reception, etc. The associates. Treat everyone well. Don't give your receptionists power over your vets. I can't tell you how many clinics I have been in that have told their receptionists to ignore when an associate says that they can't see something because of a full schedule and to schedule everything, anything and anyone. When you pass that power to a receptionist to basically veto what the DVM says, it sets everything up for failure.

I could keep going. I have so many examples of how clinics are so poorly set up to prioritize basically anyone and everyone over the associate DVM, it outstanding. I wish I had known what all those "other things" vets were quietly dealing with that really as a vet tech I would have never been able to see/witness.
This is so useful thank you. I certainly hope I wouldn't do some of these things but I can imagine how it can get lost in perspective. Thank you.
 
This is actually one of the things I am most afraid of going into practice after graduation and why I'm considering other careers besides straight clinical medicine. How prevalent do you guys think these kinds of techs are? We're taught to appreciate how helpful techs are (and most in our teaching hospital are phenomenal), but what is that line between them being helpful and them trying to "play doctor" through or in spite of you?

A good tech is worth their weight in gold. A good tech will know where the line is and they respect that line. To be honest, the good techs don't want to be/play or even pretend to play doctor. There is a big difference between a tech going "hey, psst, Dr are you sure this is the dose of medication you want for this patient, seems a bit much based on my experience" and a tech rolling their eyes and telling you your dose is wrong so they are going to do a different dose. A good tech knows how to have your back, has the knowledge to recognize what are common doses/amounts of medications for a particular weight range and will gently alert you when something seems off.


The dr. tech just changes medication doses, doesn't ask what your plan B would be if a client declines treatment, they just come up with their own. Not uncommon for them to come back and be all "yeah that owner and I don't agree with your assessment so, actually, this is what they want you to do and what I told them we should be doing." They undermine you, complain about you, some will outwardly even say "I can be a Dr, I have been doing this long enough, I practically am a Dr." Have even had some extract teeth without consulting me first... they just do it. They boss around anyone and everyone and often the rest of the staff are on edge or feel like they are walking on eggshells around this person. The Dr. tech will even decline to do things that you have asked them to do. Had one refuse to give treatment to a patient because it wasn't the way she wanted it to be done.

There is a very stark contrast between a good tech and the Dr. tech, that you really won't question which a person is being.
 
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@Coopah I think it's interesting to hear everyone's different perspectives and experiences, thanks for asking!

Both jobs I've worked have been vet-owned. The things that bother me about my current place are different than my first job. You asked what are key things that would make me happy - for me it comes down to quality of medicine offered (why I left my first job) and then support staff. My current place has some amazing techs, receptionists and kennel staff but two dud managers. My previous manager was amazing but the techs were all a bunch of 20y/o girls learning as they went.

@batsenecal I think it's a two-sided coin re: "doctor techs" - on the one hand, the more experienced techs are generally the ones that know more and are more inclined to be the sort to step on your toes. On the other hand, I LOVE my experienced techs who are like, "Oh, blocked cat? We need to do x/y/z while you're talking to the owner." Having a tech that can think like a doctor is amazing - they anticipate your needs, from setting up for a procedure to prepping an owner for bad news to even knowing what drugs/dosages I might want.

When I first started my second job after a couple years out, I did things a little differently than the other doctors in my practice and the techs were definitely not afraid to say, "Why are you doing it that way?" But I took it as an opportunity to prove to them that I know what I'm doing by explaining my drug choices or rationale behind whatever I was doing. I honestly was impressed that they cared enough to ask.
 
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How many support staff per doctor would you say is necessary?

Ideally I would want at least two to myself when I'm seeing appointments - one tech to help me in the room and a second to help the tech with blood draw, nail trim, rads, etc. We also have someone whose main job is to process lab samples, and a few extra assistants floating around to help with tech only appointments.
 
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How many support staff per doctor would you say is necessary?

Depends on a number of things. How well trained/knowledgeable/independent they are, the number of doctors working, whether you have breaks built in to the day, how busy your practice is, and how fast the doctors move. Essentially as many as you need so that the doctor is never waiting for support staff and is able to spend all their time doing doctor things. That’s going to be different for each clinic.

There needs to be enough receptionists that they don’t need help answering phones all day from other staff, and that there is not a bottleneck in flow for check in/cash out of clients.

There needs to be enough techs/assistants to have adequate history taken, have all vaccines and dewormers drawn up, have ear cytologies taken (and bonus if they can read), pet vitals taken to the extent they need to be all before I go in; enough support staff to do treatments and diagnostics after my PE, full meds, and for someone to go over care instructions for puppies/kittens/sick pets. And to keep that flow going with tech appts running in and out. If I want to see the maximum number of patients, I need techs working with my last patient/clients, AND I need the next one being loaded and prepared, while I’m in with the current patient.

To actually maximize things like that, a few things have to also happen:

*there needs to be someone other than myself that can reasonably answer and assure clients about their pets, whether it be triage over the phone, or continued update about a case. This person has to be pretty experienced because they need to have enough medical experience and common sense to know what things they can address, and what they really need me to address. I need to be on the same page with them, and I need to be able to trust that even if they take care of the issue, they let me in on what is going on. “Fluffy the Urinary cat from two days ago is still straining a little and having hematuria so the owner was concerned. He is passing a good amount of urine and otherwise is himself, and they still have bupe, prazosin and onsior. I told them to continue to make sure he is passing urine and if there is any question on that front to call back ASAP or take to ER. I reiterated again for you that without xrays we can’t rule out stones. Owner elected to wait on that, so I told her if it doesn’t resolve within another couple of days they really should.” This amazing type of tech is worth their weight in gold, and acts as my extra arm. If I just have 5 lay kids off the street, even if they know how to hit a vein and take xrays, there isn’t enough thinks I can have them do to keep going because I have to stop and take care of so many things they can’t. If I don’t have anyone to talk to a client properly about a cat who is pissing out of the box and troubleshooting that, I’m stuck on the phone for 30 min instead.

*there needs to be a couple of amazing people communicators who can be there for client emotional support, be it for tough situations or for client complaints. Without these guys and those in above bullet, I am drowing in messages from clients. I hate clinics where staff simply take messages and leaves them for the doctors and have no ability to deal with it. Though I Would rather take care of those myself if the staff can’t be trusted to handle it properly or not keep me in the loop about it. It’s my license on the line after all.

*at least a couple of technically advanced techs that I can trust to induce anesthesia, get a patient monitored and prepped as I’m finishing the last case. So I can just come out from finishing up whatever I was doing and start whatever procedure needs to be done. Like those who I trust to troubleshoot and start cpr while someone runs and gets me from a room 50 feet away. Those that can reliable take good radiographs and quality check those.

*entire team that can communicate well and keep track of the flow so clients/patients aren’t forgotten and keep moving

*staff that can take concise but complete history (and consistently get it in the record) and also can extract from the client what the goal of that appt is, AND figure out ahead of time what preventatives, vaccines, etc... they are interested in so those can be prepared ahead of time so we aren’t waiting for it at the end. Staff also need to be good about understanding wellness protocols so they can figure it out and all I have to do is a very quick check (or even be better, be solid enough I don’t have to check, but it takes a lot of experience to get there).

*staff need to be able to go over estimates with the owner and be in good communication with me about what the priorities are. The fewer “the owner want to talk to you about it first” the better.

*a good amount of tasks staff need to complete on their own time so that they can keep busy during short down times. We can’t afford to have staff sitting around.

With a full schedule and never ending supply of patients that want to be seen, I can easily use 6 support staff as the only doctor on and keep everyone busy. Two up front, 3 in the back. Ideally cross trained so anyone can be pulled to help where needed. One that floats and also takes care of some admin things during down times. If this means I see 30 pets, majority of them sick in a day and the hospital also sees a bunch of tech appts, it would be absolutely chaos if my staff were not competent and able to mostly self govern.
 
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. On the other hand, I LOVE my experienced techs who are like, "Oh, blocked cat? We need to do x/y/z while you're talking to the owner." Having a tech that can think like a doctor is amazing - they anticipate your needs, from setting up for a procedure to prepping an owner for bad news to even knowing what drugs/dosages I might want.

Ah but the key is having a tech who can think like a doctor but know their limitations and have enough knowledge to know the acceptable variabilities between doctors. The ones who know what you’ll need for things and gets that **** ready, but know when to ask, “so what do you want for X?” The good ones are also very respectful of newbies and help support them. They understand that new grads have a wealth of knowledge from school that they need to grow into, and that not knowing the practical applications of xyz means that they’re stupid.

I’ve encountered a few techs who really are amazing and could probably take over some of the doctoring, but know how to do that with you still being in charge and making sure you’re comfortable with what they’re doing. The more knowledgeable the techs are, the better!

The ones that scare me are the ones who knows how to induce an animal with x drug dosage, but don’t know when things should be altered. Or know how certain conditions are treated with Y regimen (let’s say apoquel and abx for hot spots) and assumes that is how things should be done all the time and don’t realize that’s not ok in certain patients or that there are similar presenting issues. Which is all fine, as long as they didn’t start diagnosing and treating animals in any capacity, whether it be talking to the client prematurely about it, arguing with the doctor about it, badmouthing the new grad doctor because they must be doing it wrong, or just dosing animals with in house medications/drugs without the doctor’s approval.

I usually find that the super knowledgeable amazing tech and dr. Tech are two different people. Not so much a “ooh I would love how knowledgeable she is if she didn’t overstep” situation.
 
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Totally this

BCBD4CDD-0D4A-4352-A7FE-86684C388A6C.png

Dr. Tech is on mt stupid.

that’s usually where 4th year students start and they get squashed into the valley of despair really fast in clinics. By the time you graduate, you’re slowly climbing up.

the amazing tech is like mostly up the slope of enlightenment and they are smart enough to know they just don’t ever want to be a doctor. They help newbies achieve their greatness. I’m forever grateful for the ones that raised me
 
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Ah but the key is having a tech who can think like a doctor but know their limitations and have enough knowledge to know the acceptable variabilities between doctors. The ones who know what you’ll need for things and gets that **** ready, but know when to ask, “so what do you want for X?” The good ones are also very respectful of newbies and help support them. They understand that new grads have a wealth of knowledge from school that they need to grow into, and that not knowing the practical applications of xyz means that they’re stupid.

Wow. A lot has happened since I last logged into SDN. I was one of those lucky ones who was able to transition from SAGP to industry. Also, had a baby 6 days after my insurance kicked in at my then new job. Phew.

Anyway, I have nothing to add about the previous discussion except to answer this question. My previous workplace was a father/son clinic, with the son's wife serving as practice manager. It was a 2.5-3 Dr. clinic while I was there. The PM responsibilities were "too much for one person", so they divided the role into PM and OM. Then the PM did some shady **** and "left". And then came back w/ no announcement to the staff - she literally just walked back in one day and stayed. She played doctor a LOT. Note: She was not a tech... she only had superficial knowledge by association. Communication was either non-existent or consisted of post-it notes left at random computers (I once heard what the monthly special was 10 days into the month from my own mother who brought her dog into the clinic for said special). I did not have a desk so I was constantly fighting for a place to type notes. They low-balled me when offering me a renewal contract, and then fired me at my "annual review" - my first one ever in 2.5 years of working there. I learned later that the newest receptionist left her wife and had a baby with my previous associate, and they are now in a polygamous relationship (really not judging this one, just trying to make the point that there were many degrees of relationships in this clinic and all were a challenge as an associate). So my experience in father/son clinics and husband/wife clinics is horrible and I will never ever work in such a setting again.
 
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Wow. A lot has happened since I last logged into SDN. I was one of those lucky ones who was able to transition from SAGP to industry. Also, had a baby 6 days after my insurance kicked in at my then new job. Phew.

Anyway, I have nothing to add about the previous discussion except to answer this question. My previous workplace was a father/son clinic, with the son's wife serving as practice manager. It was a 2.5-3 Dr. clinic while I was there. The PM responsibilities were "too much for one person", so they divided the role into PM and OM. Then the PM did some shady **** and "left". And then came back w/ no announcement to the staff - she literally just walked back in one day and stayed. She played doctor a LOT. Note: She was not a tech... she only had superficial knowledge by association. Communication was either non-existent or consisted of post-it notes left at random computers (I once heard what the monthly special was 10 days into the month from my own mother who brought her dog into the clinic for said special). I did not have a desk so I was constantly fighting for a place to type notes. They low-balled me when offering me a renewal contract, and then fired me at my "annual review" - my first one ever in 2.5 years of working there. I learned later that the newest receptionist left her wife and had a baby with my previous associate, and they are now in a polygamous relationship (really not judging this one, just trying to make the point that there were many degrees of relationships in this clinic and all were a challenge as an associate). So my experience in father/son clinics and husband/wife clinics is horrible and I will never ever work in such a setting again.

Girl you have seen SOME ****. I’m glad you have found somewhere else. Good riddance.

And all that after the first terrible place too. Woof.
 
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Girl you have seen SOME ****. I’m glad you have found somewhere else. Good riddance.

And all that after the first terrible place too. Woof.

Omg that first place... I drove by there every day on my way to place #2. Fortunately I won't have to drive by there ever again as we are moving almost an hour away, which puts my commute at 25 minutes!!! I've been driving 1+hr each way for 4 years. I'm exhausted. So is my car.

I am actually interviewing for a different position where I work on Thursday. I figure regardless the outcome, I will be happy. But I will basically never have the opportunity to apply for this position again so I went for it. We will see what happens!!
 
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Just wanted to pop in and say hello. I feel like I'm not on SDN as much so didn't want to really post with the "new normal" people who probably don't even know who I am haha.

I am LOVING my not-so-new-anymore job. I still marvel how things have come full circle almost six years after graduation. I am so glad I kept my ear to the ground and kept trying to break back into it. It paid off in the best way :)

On the personal front, my babies just turned 1 and I think my husband has been cured of his desire for a bigger family :laugh: They're a boatload of trouble and I still daydream about what it would be like to have just ONE baby at a time but I wouldn't trade it. (Well, maybe I would some days...)

I hope you all are doing well :biglove:
 
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Just wanted to pop in and say hello. I feel like I'm not on SDN as much so didn't want to really post with the "new normal" people who probably don't even know who I am haha.

I am LOVING my not-so-new-anymore job. I still marvel how things have come full circle almost six years after graduation. I am so glad I kept my ear to the ground and kept trying to break back into it. It paid off in the best way :)

On the personal front, my babies just turned 1 and I think my husband has been cured of his desire for a bigger family :laugh: They're a boatload of trouble and I still daydream about what it would be like to have just ONE baby at a time but I wouldn't trade it. (Well, maybe I would some days...)

I hope you all are doing well :biglove:
I might PM you with a question. Glad you’re doing well :biglove: :biglove:
 
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