Class size: 45th Mary McMillan Lecture

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DesertPT

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For those of you who may have read or heard the 45th Mary McMillan Lecture by James Gordon, and any others who may be able to comment:

I just read this and was very intrigued, not sure if it's totally legal for me to download it and re-upload it here for those who don't have access to a PTJ subscription, so bear with me.

Among several things discussed, Dr. Gordon essentially made the claim that the physical therapy academy should be consolidated into a much smaller number of substantially larger programs (class sizes comparable to medical and pharmacy schools, well upwards of 100-150 students per class). His argument for this is that large programs with larger faculties will be more likely to have the infrastructure/resources/economies of scale to be able to produce high quality research and propel academic physical therapy forward. He feels that the many new programs with little research output that have proliferated in recent years are essentially holding the PT academy back, to paraphrase.

All I've ever heard is that PT school is very different than medical school or pharmacy school in that the class sizes must, of necessity, be much smaller (much more hands-on coursework/lab work, etc). I'm very interested to know if anyone has any thoughts on this subject. Thanks all.

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Not sure how willing the schools are to consolidate with one another. More realistically, they would expand their class sizes to follow his lines of reasoning. If that the case, most of us will be digging a hole right next to our fellow lawyers and pharmacists; no disrespect to either profession, but both have quite a depth to climb out of.

The small class size is important in developing a good clinician. Granted that some people are in this solely for research interest, but there are programs out there for that. I came from a large public university for my Bachelor’s and I don’t think a large class size model would work well in this hands-on profession. But maybe someone could correct me on that. Any other thoughts on class size?
 
PT is hands on and an intimate practice. Expansion to massive class sizes will be abused by schools and oversaturate the markets. Lower student to faculty ratios is by far the best way to go. In principle, lowering the amount of schools or consolidating class sizes sounds pretty, but do you really think schools would collaborate like that? Doubt it. The only problem above with what I said about lower student to faculty is the accreditation of more and more schools.
 
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When it was masters class sizes were around 75. One more year makes a difference now? It should purely be based on need in the market
 
^Which is why the small class size but lots of schools works currently. A transition sounds good for less schools with more focus for quality in regards to exposure to research, but the implementation may be abused by admissions committees. The selection process has become SO intense. On par with dental acceptance rate at my school.....actually the same percentage.....that's nuts.
 
Another thing to consider is that we are not receiving research doctorates, we are getting clinical ones. I went to a smaller school with not a ton of research going on, but there was a low student: faculty ratio and I felt like I developed close relationships with my professors and benefitted from small class sizes. I think its great that students might have the option of either.
 
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With some programs having class sizes at 60, I could see how 75 might be reasonable to adjust for the market's demand currently. I will cry wolf however when that number runs up to 100+. Such a high number is very liable to exploitation. Is the end goal to expose students to research or to improve resources for faculty members that are involved in research? The latter case would probably benefit the most from this at the expense of student education...

With our profession geared toward evidence-based practice, do you think the research aspect is stagnant/slow to progress?
 
do you think the research aspect is stagnant/slow to progress?

I may be a little cynical, but a lot of the research papers I have been reading seem full of fluff. To be fair, it's probably the same in other fields (medicine, engineering, etc) since the pressure to publish is enormous if one wants to get tenure. I love it when authors ramble on for 15 pages and conclude "exercise is good for you, but we need to do more research to be sure."

And let's not mention the articles on "visceral manipulation" or "craniosacral therapy"...
 
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For those of you who may have read or heard the 45th Mary McMillan Lecture by James Gordon, and any others who may be able to comment:

Among several things discussed, Dr. Gordon essentially made the claim that the physical therapy academy should be consolidated into a much smaller number of substantially larger programs (class sizes comparable to medical and pharmacy schools, well upwards of 100-150 students per class). His argument for this is that large programs with larger faculties will be more likely to have the infrastructure/resources/economies of scale to be able to produce high quality research and propel academic physical therapy forward. He feels that the many new programs with little research output that have proliferated in recent years are essentially holding the PT academy back, to paraphrase.

I'm very interested to know if anyone has any thoughts on this subject. Thanks all.

I am so glad someone posted this. Now my details are fuzzy since I read the transcript almost a year ago, and was too excited to re-read before responding. Bear with me as I have a lot to say about this (although I will review and edit before posting!).

When I read this transcript initially, I said, 'Bravo Dr. Gordon!' Now the McMIllan's lecture purpose is to be a bit evocative and challenge the status quo, so all should be read with a grain of salt. But I do not believe Dr. Gordon was recommending consolidating programs together; he was recommending closing smaller programs without noticeable research activity. So not consolidating schools; rather consolidating students within schools.

The purpose of an academic program for PT [and swap out PT for just about any health care profession] is 3-fold:
1. Educate PT students using evidence based practice in collaboration with our clinical faculty.
2. Generate new knowledge (i.e., research) to move the profession forward.
3. Expose (defined in many many ways and probably be individualized to the student) students to the generation of new knowledge.

#1 is obvious and I think requires no additional explanation.
#2 and 3 are CRITICAL for PTs to advance our profession and 'own our profession' (I do not say own specific interventions or tests and measures; I am purposely stating our profession). Very few others (e.g., private industry) will take the lead on this, so academic programs MUST.

The proliferation of PT schools in smaller universities has hurt our profession. I wish I had the guts to say in publicly like Dr. Gordon rather than on an anonymous discussion board, but our faculty has discussed this AT LENGTH (I am at a 'middle of the road' school. About 50% of my job is paid for by my research funding, but of the 20 faculty I work with, only about 3 have any salary paid from grants, and only about 1/2 - 2/3 of faculty are considered 'research active.'). CAPTE requires the Chair to have a terminal degree (e.g., PhD), but that is it! These schools have no one educated or qualified to conduct research by and large, but CAPTE has some vague wording about all faculty have a 'scholarly agenda;' hence the 'fluff'' pointed out in an earlier post. I would call it garbage that often shows up at our national conference. The opening of all of these schools has put a strain on hiring qualified educators (a search of a facutly job board or my email inbox will prove that!), although I am sure completely competent clinicians and clinical faculty. But if you agree at all with my 3-fold purpose of PT academic programs, most of these small programs fall well short.

In our current environment of PT education, my job as a faculty member is to address each of my 3-fold purposes. If I don't I am failing the profession. With a smaller number of larger programs, each faculty member can focus on what they do best. PT faculty with no education and no skills in research will no longer be required to produce 'research' and can collaborate with colleagues at their institution that have the education and training rather than 'collaborating' with equally unqualified colleagues at these small schools. Of course we could collaborate between programs, but that is a rant for another day....

For the 'hands on' argument many PTs stated in response to Dr. Gordon's lecture (and stated in this discussion).. I will quote an oft stated adage in the PT world (I do not know who said it originally)..."For too long PT has been practiced from the neck down. In the current healthcare climate, we must start practicing PT from the neck up." Clinical decision making and WHY we do things should be the focus of PT education; the psychomotr skill development is receiving less and less time in PT programs (although still covered and important) over the last 5 years and I expect that to continue. This is following (and not leading) practice that PTs will be doing less 'hands on' interventions and will delegate 'extenders' to do more of the psychmotor interventions with patients. For us 'old' PTs, I think this was a tough pill to swallow, but it is where we are. I like to think about it in the 'Cowboys and Pit Crews' discussion (Atul Gwande) rather than a marked change in the PT profession.

Ok, that is enough out of me for a while!!!!
 
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With our profession geared toward evidence-based practice, do you think the research aspect is stagnant/slow to progress?

OK, had to make one more comment.

YES!!!!!!!
 
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Excellent, thanks everyone for your responses.

@ptisfun2 thanks a lot for taking the time to post a lengthy reply. It really helped me understand the Dr. Gordon article a lot better.

But what will ever trigger the change? If CAPTE continues to be willing to accredit anyone who meets the minimum and occasionally vague requirements for opening a PT school, and there continues to be an effectively unlimited number of eager students willing to pay any tuition price, how will we ever consolidate the PT academy and get away from having so many PT schools at small, non-research intensive (mostly private) universities?

My other question is this: why don't programs currently have larger class sizes? Why don't the research-heavy programs accept 100+ students a year to generate more resources for their program?
 
Thank you @ptisfun2 for sharing. That was very insightful. I'm at a crossroad with so many thoughts to ponder over.


My other question is this: why don't programs currently have larger class sizes? Why don't the research-heavy programs accept 100+ students a year to generate more resources for their program?

Because they will have people like me who would cry wolf. Haha. Joking asides, I think an expansion in class size would still leave many issues unsolved- openings of new smaller programs, finding qualified professors, etc.
 
Thank you @ptisfun2 for sharing. That was very insightful. I'm at a crossroad with so many thoughts to ponder over.

Because they will have people like me who would cry wolf. Haha. Joking asides, I think an expansion in class size would still leave many issues unsolved- openings of new smaller programs, finding qualified professors, etc.

I'm not claiming anything about class sizes creating or fixing issues. Indeed, if the number of schools remains the same but the class sizes all increase, market saturation will happen rapidly. What I'm asking is what motivates most programs to keep class sizes at ~60 at the most?
 
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My other question is this: why don't programs currently have larger class sizes? Why don't the research-heavy programs accept 100+ students a year to generate more resources for their program?
Dr. Gordon is from USC, which accepts about 100 students in each class. They're a very research-focused program, so I'm sure the large student body and exorbitant tuition provides lots of resources for them. One of my professors recently mentioned that they even have their own MRI machine for research purposes.

Great discussion, thanks for starting this thread @DesertPT
 
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Not sure how willing the schools are to consolidate with one another. More realistically, they would expand their class sizes to follow his lines of reasoning. If that the case, most of us will be digging a hole right next to our fellow lawyers and pharmacists; no disrespect to either profession, but both have quite a depth to climb out of.

The small class size is important in developing a good clinician. Granted that some people are in this solely for research interest, but there are programs out there for that. I came from a large public university for my Bachelor’s and I don’t think a large class size model would work well in this hands-on profession. But maybe someone could correct me on that. Any other thoughts on class size?

How so?
 
I'm not claiming anything about class sizes creating or fixing issues. Indeed, if the number of schools remains the same but the class sizes all increase, market saturation will happen rapidly. What I'm asking is what motivates most programs to keep class sizes at ~60 at the most?

I misunderstood your intention. And I'm curious to know as well.


Class Size and Student Performance at a Public Research University: A Cross-Classified Model. By: Johnson, Iryna. Research in Higher Education. Dec2010, Vol. 51 Issue 8, p701-723. 23p
“The conditional models presented here show that increasing class size has a significant negative effect on final grades across all disciplinary areas after controlling for student characteristics, class level, and random effects… While demonstrating the benefits of reducing class size for student grades across all
disciplines, the models presented here also suggest that the effect of increasing class size is more pronounced in Engineering, Biology, and Social Science. Perhaps these are the disciplines where class size reduction should be addressed first.”

You might argue that grades achievement does not determine clinical skills and I would agree to an extent. However, someone who perform poorly in classes and does not possess an adequate level of competency is certainly not cut out to be a clinician.

Nevertheless, I will digress and point out that you could find possible flaws in the article. The study, for instance, did not control faculty characteristics. Another one is that it does not specifically address the PT profession (I simply couldn’t find one…). Perhaps a faculty member or someone from a large-size program could better "expand" (couldn't help it...) this discussion.
 
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I misunderstood your intention. And I'm curious to know as well.



Class Size and Student Performance at a Public Research University: A Cross-Classified Model. By: Johnson, Iryna. Research in Higher Education. Dec2010, Vol. 51 Issue 8, p701-723. 23p
“The conditional models presented here show that increasing class size has a significant negative effect on final grades across all disciplinary areas after controlling for student characteristics, class level, and random effects… While demonstrating the benefits of reducing class size for student grades across all
disciplines, the models presented here also suggest that the effect of increasing class size is more pronounced in Engineering, Biology, and Social Science. Perhaps these are the disciplines where class size reduction should be addressed first.”

You might argue that grades achievement does not determine clinical skills and I would agree to an extent. However, someone who perform poorly in classes and does not possess an adequate level of competency is certainly not cut out to be a clinician.

Nevertheless, I will digress and point out that you could find possible flaws in the article. The study, for instance, did not control faculty characteristics. Another one is that it does not specifically address the PT profession (I simply couldn’t find one…). Perhaps a faculty member or someone from a large-size program could better "expand" (couldn't help it...) this discussion.


I can't find this study online anywhere - not even the abstract. Does it look at graduate students or undergraduate?

I went to a well respected school with a class size of 70 and I certainly didn't feel that class size negatively impacted my learning.
 
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I went to a well respected school with a class size of 70 and I certainly didn't feel that class size negatively impacted my learning.

I don't doubt your abilities, jesspt. Would your opinion change if your class size had been in the 100+? And why?
 
I don't doubt your abilities, jesspt. Would your opinion change if your class size had been in the 100+? And why?
Nope. My opinion would be the same. From my experience (and note, I am not quoting from the relevant literature here), it seems that much of learning and acquiring skill is inherent in the learner, not the one who is teaching. To apply science based practice, I need to acquire facts. It does not matter if there are 30 of us in a classroom, 100 of us, or if we are scattered across the country and participating in a webinar. The facts are the facts. There are those of use who will seek them out and assimilate them, and those of us who want them spoon fed. While the latter may be able to pass PT courses and the NPTE, I don't think they would ever be clinicians I would want to treat a family member.
 
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it seems that much of learning and acquiring skill is inherent in the learner, not the one who is teaching

I agree, although I do feel like I've learned more in classes with a teacher who had teaching skills versus the classes where Mr. Academic at the front of the classroom would rather be anywhere but there. But people who are going to fail classes will likely fail them regardless of the teacher.

I suppose this is pretty much independent of class size. Do you feel like the "individualized attention" people like to talk about when it comes to small classes makes a difference in PT education?
 
Do you feel like the "individualized attention" people like to talk about when it comes to small classes makes a difference in PT education?

Nope. Not even a little.

The purpose of PT school is to give you the 'why' and theoretical constructs of patient management in physical therapy (I believe another poster called it the facts, which I would argue is a slightly incorrect characterization, but good enough as a workable definition). The application of the why to a patient (clinical decision making) is the responsibility of the learner, with guidance from academic and clinical faculty, as well as other formal and informal mentors.
 
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Nope. Not even a little.

The purpose of PT school is to give you the 'why' and theoretical constructs of patient management in physical therapy (I believe another poster called it the facts, which I would argue is a slightly incorrect characterization, but good enough as a workable definition). The application of the why to a patient (clinical decision making) is the responsibility of the learner, with guidance from academic and clinical faculty, as well as other formal and informal mentors.

Thanks. So then why aren't programs motivated to have larger class sizes? Why don't they accept 100+ students a year to generate more resources for their program?
 
Thanks. So then why aren't programs motivated to have larger class sizes? Why don't they accept 100+ students a year to generate more resources for their program?

Well here is what I think (my opinion, blah, blah)
The train has left the station. Many universities saw lots of eager prospective PT students (read:$$), so they thought, 'Well let's open a PT program. Can't be that hard.' And CAPTE indeed makes it pretty darn easy, with little to know requirements to start a program, and lacking the chutzpah to enforce their own regulations, so everyone just gets accredited. So now we have these small, ill equipped PT program (in this I 100% agree with Dr. Gordon). The number of PT programs has increased quite a bit in the last decade.
So what now? These universities are making money, prospective students keep applying, so why would an ill equipped school close? And the 'good' schools...if they increase class size while the 'other' schools stay open, what is that going to do to the market for PTs? And where are all of these students going to do clinical rotations? Leaving all of the for-profit, onlineness out of the conversation for now, South College was granted accreditation candidacy from CAPTE. 4/13 of the faculty have a PhD...will sufficient significant and meaningful research come out of a school like that? I mean 13 faculty seems reasonable, but my understanding is most of the faculty will not be full time.
Ugh, I get frustrated.
 
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And where are all of these students going to do clinical rotations?

I guess this would definitely be one class-size limiting factor a lot of schools would have a hard time accommodating. From my interviews at various schools it was obvious that the well-established programs at major universities had a better variety of clinical rotation options for students then the new programs.

Thanks for your reply, it helped clear things up for me.

And as far as South College goes, we've had a whole big discussion of that elsewhere in the forums...if you want to see a DPT program director look like a used car salesman with a case of snake oil to unload, check out the South College DPT program's Facebook page where he was fielding questions....but that's a tangent to this thread I suppose.
 
I'll just relay one anecdote from a class I observed over the winter at one of the nation's "premier" PT programs.

The classroom was huge, with probably 60 students. Candidates (including me) were on the tables getting cervical massage/manipulation (which was AWESOME interview prep!)

The instructor said something to the effect of, "You want to apply 14 foot-pounds of pressure." The two students working on my neck were using very different levels of pressure. I gave them that feedback and asked them, "How do you know when you're applying 14 foot-pounds of pressure?" They didn't know the answer, so when the instructor finally made it around to our table, they asked him: "How do you know when you're applying 14 foot-pounds of pressure?"

His very unsatisfactory answer was, "When their symptoms go away." And then he was gone.

At that point I was pretty sure I wasn't going to this school, even before the interview.

I was initially so stoked when I got my first acceptance (Northwestern). The huge class size (90) (and correspondingly huge faculty) sounded great to me. But after getting to the end of the process and seeing the benefits of an intimate class size (34 at UNLV), it was a no-brainer. And that's not even considering the cost.
 
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