Clinical Psych Phd thinking about med school

[psyphd]

Hello all, first time posting so any help or advice is helpful to me.

I am a current 4th year going into 5th year (26 year old) PhD clinical psych student and I have been considering going the MD route after I complete my program (in about 2 more years).

Clinical experience thus far: worked as training psychologist for one year (20 hours a week) on an inpatient psychiatric unit, where I worked with both psychiatrists and psychologists (conducted evaluations and psychotherapy). Additionally, I have spent two years (20 hours a week) in a family medicine residency clinic, where I saw patients (evaluations, therapy) and collaborated with primary care residents and attending physicians (consulting on potential psychiatric concerns).

As I approach the end of my PhD studies I have realized that I would like to continue on to medical school and eventually purse psychiatry or primary care residencies.

UG GPA: 3.5
Graduate GPA: 3.9
Handful of publications and conference presentations

The issue I am facing now is that I was on the psychology tract in undergrad and therefore have not taken any of the science pre-requirments for medschool. I have recently applied to a separate university and will begin to take these undergrad science classes (bio, chem, physics) in my last two years of PhD study.

My two questions are:
- Has anyone here gone through a clinical psycho phd and then continued on into medical school? What has your experiences been like?

- What do all of you think about my situation (i.e., not taking any pre-med classes, undergrad GPA)?

I guess I question myself as to whether I can really pull this off as I know this will be a large transition. I guess I am open to general encouragement as well

Thanks for your insights!

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[Okazaki Frag Grenade]

clinical psycho phd

Freudian slip perhaps? I also made the switch from clinical psychology over to medicine. I had started in a doctoral program just like you, but ended up stopping with my Master's degree once I actually figured out what I wanted to do with my life! I've been working in the field since then alongside doing a postbacc and my application cycle this past year.

I had not done any of the pre-reqs in undergrad either, so doing the postbacc was the first time I had really studied this material. It was definitely an adjustment and I had to work my butt off, but it was worth it. My program was 12 months long, followed by the MCAT. I think this was helpful because all the material was fresh and MCAT studying was really just reviewing (for the most part). Your UG gpa is a little low, but if you do well on your postbacc courses, it will raise it some. Adcoms won't really put much weight on your grad gpa either, just FYI.

Your background in mental health will be very valuable on your application, especially the PhD. Your clinical training obviously is a help too, but I'd still shoot to get some solid shadowing experiences, maybe like internal medicine and other specialties you're interested in (aim for ~50 hours) and clinical/non-clinical volunteering. You'll want to show that you know what you're getting into with medicine and that you're altruistic.

 

[PsychScience]

My two questions are:
- Has anyone here gone through a clinical psycho phd and then continued on into medical school? What has your experiences been like?

- What do all of you think about my situation (i.e., not taking any pre-med classes, undergrad GPA)?

I guess I question myself as to whether I can really pull this off as I know this will be a large transition. I guess I am open to general encouragement as well

Thanks for your insights!

I'll jump in because I was in your position a few years back. I post infrequently on the psych forum, and typically only lurk on the nontrad forum (and occasionally on pre-allo). I finished my Clinical Psych PhD about 2.5 years ago. When I was in training and started doing my practicums in medical settings I realized I was much more interested in the medical side of care than in the clinical psych side of things. Although I wanted to switch gears while still in school, I ultimately decided to finish my PhD program. I completed my internship in a general medical center and a 2 year postdoc at a pediatric hospital and just jumped through all the licensing hurdles about a year ago. Over the last 3-4 years I have gone back and forth over whether it was the right choice for me to complete the PhD. Now that I'm licensed, I just can't see myself going back to school. Not because I'm in love with my job or I suddenly had an aha moment where I realized being a pediatric psychologist was the perfect balance of my medical interest and clinical psych interest, but rather because I'm now in my early 30's and my responsibilities are just so different than when I was in my 20s.

Since, much like me, you did not have all the pre-med classes in undergrad, one thing to think about is how realistic it will be for you to take the pre-req classes while enrolled in your current program. There is incredible variation between programs, but there is simply no way that it would have been possible to be enrolled in both undergrad courses while simultaneously working on my dissertation, teaching, taking my remaining graduate classes, and also working at my clinical placement.
Like I said, I ultimately decided to complete the PhD. Maybe you can pull off trying to complete pre-reqs and also your degree, I could not. When I made the decision to complete my program, I thought I would start down the pre-med path after I finished school, but now things are just not as clear. I still harbor hopes of potentially pursuing a medical degree (hence my lurking on this forum!). However, realistically, I think if I had really wanted to do the MD I should have walked away from the PhD when I knew that it wasn't for me. I suppose I could have also skipped postdoc and becoming licensed, but I still think the more logical departure point would have been after my masters.

Some other things for you to think about:

Are you in a fully funded PhD program? I ask, because you mentioned interest in primary care and psychiatry, neither of which are very high paying specialties (I mean relative to psychologists salaries they are, but relative to other medical specialties they are not). You would be in a much better financial position to pursue the MD if you haven't already taken on 6 figure debt from your phd program.

Do you have your masters yet? Or will you get it en route to the PhD? I think its a lot easier to walk away after completing that than to finish totally empty handed.

Edited to add: Clearly this is just my perspective, many people will point out, and rightly so, that walking away from your PhD could make you look like you have commitment issues and that you are better off finishing it. There is a lot of truth to this point of view. And it sounds like you do intend to complete your degree. However, my experience was that completing the PhD (and then the requirements for licensing) takes such a long time it becomes less and less realistic to pursue an entirely different career course.

 

[DrMikeP]

Hello all, first time posting so any help or advice is helpful to me.

I am a current 4th year going into 5th year (26 year old) PhD clinical psych student and I have been considering going the MD route after I complete my program (in about 2 more years).

Clinical experience thus far: worked as training psychologist for one year (20 hours a week) on an inpatient psychiatric unit, where I worked with both psychiatrists and psychologists (conducted evaluations and psychotherapy). Additionally, I have spent two years (20 hours a week) in a family medicine residency clinic, where I saw patients (evaluations, therapy) and collaborated with primary care residents and attending physicians (consulting on potential psychiatric concerns).

As I approach the end of my PhD studies I have realized that I would like to continue on to medical school and eventually purse psychiatry or primary care residencies.

UG GPA: 3.5
Graduate GPA: 3.9
Handful of publications and conference presentations

The issue I am facing now is that I was on the psychology tract in undergrad and therefore have not taken any of the science pre-requirments for medschool. I have recently applied to a separate university and will begin to take these undergrad science classes (bio, chem, physics) in my last two years of PhD study.

My two questions are:
- Has anyone here gone through a clinical psycho phd and then continued on into medical school? What has your experiences been like?

- What do all of you think about my situation (i.e., not taking any pre-med classes, undergrad GPA)?

I guess I question myself as to whether I can really pull this off as I know this will be a large transition. I guess I am open to general encouragement as well

Thanks for your insights!

Have been a practicing psychologist for quite a while and in July will be starting med school. Can't say as it was easy (darn hard actually!!) but basically you're starting over on par with every other beginning premed (and non-premed until you reach Org 1) because your req sci courses need to be within the last ~5-10yrs at many places to show you can do the work. You should aim for A's and an undergrad sGPA of ~3.45+ to be competitive. Your grad gpa/degree will be useful but it won't make up for missing any of the standard requirements! There are NO shortcuts, so just do the time.

Finish your psych degree and get licensed and then work in a hospital or some such. Become one of the doctors and learn what the world of medicine is like. Shadow the docs and learn! Medicine not the happy wow everyone loves me environment and paperwork is horrific, but there are also many rewards. During interviews they will want to know why the switch, as they are making sure you aren't just career jumping and will want to do the same again when almost done with med school. You had better have a reason based on experience vs. I think or I got bored or I think medicine will allow me to do _____.

There is another somewhat similar recent thread on SDN, read it, and read others I've posted as they often outline what I did to get accepted. I would be happy to answer any specific questions about what it would take, but do the reading first.

People to really listen to here are Goro, DrMidlife, Qof..., and some others with lots of experience.

One word of advice, If you need someone else to support/encourage/think the choice is great then stay in psychology because as a nontrad you'll find more people against than for you and sitting in class/labs with 19 year olds who could care less about their future takes a special kind of mindset. You must personally weigh options and if you are wildly passionate about medicine and could care less who thinks what against your decision to become a physician you might have sufficient determination to accomplish your dream.

Best of Luck!

 

[psyphd]

Thank you all for taking time to write your responses and varied perspectives! Im glad that I am not the only psychologist who has thought about the same issues. Your perspectives are as good as gold for me!!

To address some points:

- Yes I plan on finishing the PhD (I have already received my masters while in the program) . I am already too far into it (collecting dissertation data) and still value being a psychologists as well. Additionally, it is good to have the PhD to fall back on.

- My phd program was only partially funded unfortunately (two years of partial funding for two years of T.A. for professor). So, given that med-school would cost another 250k, I'm looking at 300-400k by the time I would have both Phd and MD. I know that is a lot, but Im hoping that either scholarships or perhaps government loan forgiveness plans might come into play later on.

- Basically, my time line is that I will be essentially sitting for one year before internship. I am applying to internships this fall (fall 2016), so if I match (which I feel fairly confident I will) that means I will not be going to internship until summer-fall 2017. So in between now and then I will be continuing to write dissertation and teach at a local 4-year college (I teach about two classes a semester). I will have already completed two practicums (primary care and inpatient psychiatric) as well as the university's school clinic.

It is my thought that during this time (fall 2016-summer/fall 2017) I could begin taking undergrad courses in the evening. Do you guys think that it is reasonable? Because I did not take any math courses (besides stats and a survey of math) or biology, or chemistry, or physics it seems that Im going to have to kill a semester of two just taking leveling courses so I can take the intro courses of those subjects. For those of you that have gone through with this, has this been your experience too?

Finally, I have been reading differing perspectives on this in other posts. Does taking these classes part-time or full-time make a difference to med admissions when applying?
Also what are your feelings regarding community college vs university for the fulfillment of these classes?

Thank you all for your help so far!!!

 

[DrMikeP]

Yes you can begin prerequisites, part-time is OK but you want 8hrs a term vs 1 class and lab.

If you intern at a university you might get them for free or cheaper. So finish your degree, pass the eppp, complete your residency, get lic, take courses, shadow, and then take the MCAT once done with classes (including biochem). You have 2-3 yrs. then you can apply. They will go quickly!

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[psyphd]

Thank you for the insight DrMike!

the 2-3 year from now before I apply is what I was thinking as well. I would just like to make the tradition (end of phd program - apply to medical school) as close as possible. I am not getting any younger!

 

[DrMikeP]

Thank you for the insight DrMike!

the 2-3 year from now before I apply is what I was thinking as well. I would just like to make the tradition (end of phd program - apply to medical school) as close as possible. I am not getting any younger!

Me either... Lol

By that time have your reason ready why medicine. Also aim for internship at a hospital. VAs or public look really good and would give you something to talk about.



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[PsychScience]

- My phd program was only partially funded unfortunately (two years of partial funding for two years of T.A. for professor). So, given that med-school would cost another 250k, I'm looking at 300-400k by the time I would have both Phd and MD. I know that is a lot, but Im hoping that either scholarships or perhaps government loan forgiveness plans might come into play later on.

I hope this does not come across as harsh, but you should absolutely not make a plan that is based on scholarships and/or government loan forgiveness. Instead, your plan should be based on the scenario that you will have to take out loans to pay for most of medical school and that the money you take out is the money you have to pay back (with interest). This is not to say that it is unrealistic to go to medical school with pre-existing loans, many people do. Rather, it is to say, you should build a plan for pursuing medical school based on financial probabilities (you will need 100% loans to cover COA) rather than on financial possibilities (someone somewhere might maybe give you a scholarship). While the scholarship or loan forgiveness program could happen, you will put yourself in the best position by making decisions based on the assumption that it will not and proceeding appropriately.

- Basically, my time line is that I will be essentially sitting for one year before internship. I am applying to internships this fall (fall 2016), so if I match (which I feel fairly confident I will) that means I will not be going to internship until summer-fall 2017. So in between now and then I will be continuing to write dissertation and teach at a local 4-year college (I teach about two classes a semester). I will have already completed two practicums (primary care and inpatient psychiatric) as well as the university's school clinic.

It is my thought that during this time (fall 2016-summer/fall 2017) I could begin taking undergrad courses in the evening. Do you guys think that it is reasonable? Because I did not take any math courses (besides stats and a survey of math) or biology, or chemistry, or physics it seems that Im going to have to kill a semester of two just taking leveling courses so I can take the intro courses of those subjects. For those of you that have gone through with this, has this been your experience too?

Finally, I have been reading differing perspectives on this in other posts. Does taking these classes part-time or full-time make a difference to med admissions when applying?
Also what are your feelings regarding community college vs university for the fulfillment of these classes?

Yikes! Teaching a two classes a semester while working at a practicum is a lot! How far along are you on your dissertation? Regardless, you know yourself best and whether or not you can handle evening coursework on what already sounds like a full schedule. There are many nontrads who have successfully navigated full-time work on top of part-time courses. Another thing to keep in mind, however, is that it is really important that you do well in the pre-reqs. It is not enough to simply take them and cross it off the "to do" list, you must excel in the courses getting mostly A's. As nice as that 3.9 graduate school gpa looks, medical school will not care about it. They are going to give much more weight to your gpa for undergraduate courses. On top of course work, you will also need to get some hours shadowing, volunteering, and clinically (clinical hours should be easy assuming you are in a hospital/medical center!). This is all to say, take your time, and do it well.

As for the courses you take, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong. But many medical schools will accept statistics for math. Some schools require calculus, but not all of them do. So you may not have to take calc depending on the list of schools you intend to apply. As for community college vs. university, I believe the rule of thumb is to take your pre-req courses at 4- year college if you can. I would highly recommend you do a search through the forum on the topic, you will find many many responses to this question from people much wiser than myself.

 

[psyphd]

Thank you for your insight, PsycgScience

Thank you for the input about doing well in the pre-req classes and not just viewing them as a checklist. I am actually really excited to begin the classes, as it has been almost a year since I have taken any formal didactics. Believe it or not I actually do miss that!

As far as volunteer work, I will be submitting a volunteer application at a local hospital. At this point I am really open to whatever they have available. In addition to this I have also submitted a volunteer application at the local pet shelter (cats only). I have always wanted to do this, so while I was in volunteer mode I decided to jump on that as well

As far as shadowing, I hope my experiences will have sufficiently covered that. At the beginning of my primary care practicum I shadowed both residents and attending physicians (sat in during precepting as well) for several weeks. Now I am actually seeing patients there for psychotherapy and assessment, along with doing "warm hand offs" with family medicine residences when they have any psych questions. Therefore, I have been working closely with physicians for a few years now. I have even been able to take part in training resident physicians with my supervising faculty psychologist at the primary care residency (observing and evaluating physician-patient interaction through live feed video).

So clinically, I have over 500 hours (therapy and assessment) in three settings (primary care, inpatient psychiatric, and university psychology clinic). In addition to this, I was a employed as a patient sitter at a different hospital for one year before and into the beginning of graduate school. In this position, I was able to interact with many different medical professionals and "patient sat" on pretty much all the units (ER, Med Surg, ICU, etc). I hope that all these experiences will cover clinical and shadowing experience needed, especially considered to pre-med undergrads.

Dissertation wise, I am studying the "difficult doctor-patient relationship," and I already have 65 patient encounters and ratings. I would like to get to at least 100-120 but we shall see I hope to be proposed by the summer of course (I know, how can I be collecting data before proposal - we do things backwards lol! and my chair is on board with it so that always helps!). As an aside, I wonder if having a dissertation topic such as this would be a really nice EC as well? Perhaps something I would bring up in interviews?

As far as CC or university, I have decided to at least start at CC in the beginning and maybe transition to university for the last few classes. My observations of other posts on this issue lead me to believe that for non-trads CC is OK. Its a problem for those that are traditional students and are trying to take difficult courses at CC.

By the way, thank you for the heads up and the statistics courses! I didn't know that schools would accept stats for math requirements.