comments on interventional spine vs acgme accredited pain

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lucyz02

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I have just begun looking around at fellowship opportunities. According to the painrounds.com website, the intervention spine is focused on most sports med and acute intervention procedures, this seems more along the line of what I would be interested in. However, you are not elgible to sit for the pain boards through AAPMR. I wonder what implication this would have on the future of being able to get hospital accreditation, would you open yourself up legally for potential lawsuit if your aren't "board certified" and doing these procedures.
The pain fellowships appear to vary on training but most involve cancer pain, inpatient medicine and chonic pain to some degree. But, upon completing you are then elgible for the boards???

Anyone care to comment on what the see for the future implications of doing the interventional spine fellowship without being to sit for the boards?

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Simply: NO!

Go through an ACGME accredited program. It offers you great protection for your future and the ability to be certified by an ABMS member board.

While you still may be able to get top notch training at a non-accredited fellowship- the insurance companies and hospitals (shoul you ever need to do procedures there) may have something to say about it.

Be safe. Get ABA or ABPMR accredited in the subspecialty.

When algos gets his butt in gear and convinces ISIS,ASIPP,ABPM, and APS to all sit down and hammer out a 4 year residency in Pain Medicine, then you will be all set. Until then, we suffer throguh board exm and patients who do not get to see us suffer with lesser care.
 
It is on my list of things to do before I die, but the road is long. I met with several officials of IU including those in the PM&R and chair of anesthesiology programs 3 years ago and proposed a 4 year program and I told the directors I would provide funding for the program through industrial grants. The chairs were actually for it, but the dean would not permit it....sigh. So, we will revisit this soon I suppose and see what happens. Perhaps we need a more progressive school than IU...anyone have ideas on universities that would boldly go where no man has gone before?
 
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lobelsteve said:
Simply: NO!

Go through an ACGME accredited program. It offers you great protection for your future and the ability to be certified by an ABMS member board.

While you still may be able to get top notch training at a non-accredited fellowship- the insurance companies and hospitals (shoul you ever need to do procedures there) may have something to say about it.

Be safe. Get ABA or ABPMR accredited in the subspecialty.

When algos gets his butt in gear and convinces ISIS,ASIPP,ABPM, and APS to all sit down and hammer out a 4 year residency in Pain Medicine, then you will be all set. Until then, we suffer throguh board exm and patients who do not get to see us suffer with lesser care.


I would agree, ABMS board certification is a security blanket, though I've seen quite a few ACGME programs that do not provide very good interventional training. Additionally, in my limited experience, if the political forces in a hospital system want to keep you out, they will find a reason to, pain boards or not.

Secondly, why is it solely Algos' responsibility to see that a pain residency comes to fruition? I think we all can support this in one way or another. From what i understand, the AAPM is now constructing their pain medicine residency review commitee (RRC). So maybe this isn't all just a bunch of hype.
 
algosdoc said:
It is on my list of things to do before I die, but the road is long. I met with several officials of IU including those in the PM&R and chair of anesthesiology programs 3 years ago and proposed a 4 year program and I told the directors I would provide funding for the program through industrial grants. The chairs were actually for it, but the dean would not permit it....sigh. So, we will revisit this soon I suppose and see what happens. Perhaps we need a more progressive school than IU...anyone have ideas on universities that would boldly go where no man has gone before?


I believe Mayo is quite progressive.

How about the Harvard Hospitals? West Coast?
 
The model to follow, both politically and academically, is Emergency Medicine. Up until the late 70's there were no emergency medicine residency programs. A variety of specialists (surgeons, internists, GP's, pediatricians, OB/GYN, etc) would practice in emergency care settings and call themselves "ER Physicians." Frankly, it wasn't a very prestigious gig that usually attracted "washouts" from other specialties.

Nevertheless, pioneers in those specialties got together, overcame HUGE political forces and created a specialty with a defined scope of practice. The field is still not without its critics and ask any ER physician and they'll tell you how every other specialist in the hospital feels qualified to do what they do and vocally criticizes them every chance they get: They're not as good at airway management as anesthesiologists; they're not as good at trauma triage as general surgeons; they're knowledge of peds is only superfiscial compared to a peds residency graduate, etc.

Still, I think that the time as come for a bona-fide residency in Pain Medicine. Creating the specialty will require pioneers from anesthesia, PM&R, neurology, neurosurgery, and psychiatry to stand together. I think it will happen in our time. Maybe some of the posters here will be the pioneers of the specialty.
 
I appreciate everyone's input, its been good insight. After having read several posts, fellowship reviews etc.... it is still unclear to me what exactly is the best route. I am quite interested in MSK medicine, sports and having the additional interventional training for acute pain management is also attractive to be able to offer that to your patients as well. By no means would I be interested in devoting 95% of a practice toward inpatient/ chronic pain thus the interventional spine fellowships seems to be the best fit. I would like to combine the msk, sport, and acute pain. However, with this monsterous amount of politics it appears the ACGME is the sure way to secure your future intergrity and legal liability. Am I correct in those assumptions? I am not sure if any one really knows since this is sort like looking into the future??? I would be applying a couple years from now and with all the politics aside what would you say are the best predictions?? I would hate to complete a fellowship, then 5 years later find it to be invalidated??
 
I checked into the ED "clinical pathways". These had the support of surgeons, FP, peds, etc for several years since doctors were tired of getting called into the ED late at night when the problem to be treated was a simple one. Clinical pathways was an 8 year process in which all the specialties had input into what they felt was appropriate for ED docs to be treating. It may be that pain medicine needs to go the same route, but the political support for such clinical pathways from programs that have fellowships in pain medicine is simply non existent. The entrenched program directors and directors of pain medicine fellowships have no incentive to move forward into a full blown residency since it would mean giving up control, and would be the demise of the fellowship programs. The residency directors have tossed around the idea of a 2 year fellowship in pain that was ultimately shot down, and now a 1.5 year fellowship is under consideration. But the big question is why? Why would a person need to spend 4 years in anesthesiology then enter a completely different specialty in which very few anesthesiology skills are used? The same goes for PMR and neurology. It is extremely wasteful of the time of the residents and fellows to have a peripherally related base residency for 4 years then enter a different specialty area. Why not have a full pain residency in its own right...
 
Can someone just clarify the definition of a "spine" fellowship? Do they do procedures on the spine or around the spine or both? So, is shoulder pain or knee pain not covered in a "spine" fellowship because they are not a part of "spine". What about stellate ganglion, thoracic sympathetic ganglion, celiac plexus, lumbar sympathetic blocks, hypogastric plexus? These are done next to the vertebral bodies or right on the "spine"(transverse processes). Are these covered in a "spine" fellowship? How about SPINAL cord stimulators?

I think we as physiatrists should strive to be as good as we can be, not to "compete" with our anesthesia colleagues, but to help our patients, the best we can. What would you do if your epidural steroid did not help someone's leg pain, are you gonna send the patient away for a trial of lumbar sympathetic block, or spinal cord stimulator?

I don't think that there is one perfect fellowship that will teach you everything you need to know. I think things that are not learned in fellowship should be made up by attending conferences, cadaver courses, self-education, research, etc. Why are we limiting ourselves as physiatrists to "spine"? How are we going to train the next generation of physiatric pain doctors if limit ourselves?

Sorry, I will shut up now. Off my soapbox now.
 
lucyz02,
A fellowship or residency will not give you all the training you need, no matter in what field it is in. It is only a foundation. In other words, you arent finished learning when you finish your training. You will need to complement it with workshops, independent study, etc. Medicine, as you have probably heard, is a lifelong learning process. You will (hopefully) continue to add new skills to the scope of your practice. So.....i would say get into the best ACGME accredited PAIN fellowship you possibly can.

T
 
C Fiber said:
Can someone just clarify the definition of a "spine" fellowship? Do they do procedures on the spine or around the spine or both? So, is shoulder pain or knee pain not covered in a "spine" fellowship because they are not a part of "spine". What about stellate ganglion, thoracic sympathetic ganglion, celiac plexus, lumbar sympathetic blocks, hypogastric plexus? These are done next to the vertebral bodies or right on the "spine"(transverse processes). Are these covered in a "spine" fellowship? How about SPINAL cord stimulators?

I think we as physiatrists should strive to be as good as we can be, not to "compete" with our anesthesia colleagues, but to help our patients, the best we can. What would you do if your epidural steroid did not help someone's leg pain, are you gonna send the patient away for a trial of lumbar sympathetic block, or spinal cord stimulator?

I don't think that there is one perfect fellowship that will teach you everything you need to know. I think things that are not learned in fellowship should be made up by attending conferences, cadaver courses, self-education, research, etc. Why are we limiting ourselves as physiatrists to "spine"? How are we going to train the next generation of physiatric pain doctors if limit ourselves?

Sorry, I will shut up now. Off my soapbox now.


Personally, I agree with you. Practically, I think that Spine Fellowships exist and are defined more by what they *DON'T* do than what they do: No malignant pain, no complicated post-op pain, no pediatric pain, etc. I can't argue the other side well, but others have. Refer to this old thread for other discussion:

Pain versus Spine
 
Although I can understand the gripes by "pain physicians" about doctors who tend to cherry pick their patients for the procedures, I do feel that some of this anger may be slightly misdirected. Not every pain physician I know does "cervical procedures", not every pain physician I know wants to do "morphine/baclofen pumps". Does this make them any less of a "pain physician"? If people get referred for to a pain physician for cancer pain, can a pain physician say, "I'm sorry, that's not my area of expertise, let me refer you to someone who is better at those types of procedures and medical management".

It appears that unless a pain physician is willing to do everything under the guise of "pain management" people think he shouldn't be considered a pain management doctor. No one says anything about the ortho guy that only does shoulders....or hips...or knees. He is subspecialized. Can't a person be "subspecialized" in the very VAST area of pain? Can he decide that he only wants to deal with "spine related pain" or "cancer pain" or "CRPS".

This field will never come together as long as physicians continue to fight within it.
 
Orthopedic residents have all been exposed to a certain number of artificial joint, trauma, arthoscopic, other clinical cases etc, because they have a regulated, well established residency. They can choose to subspecialize later, but they can still be called upon to do something that they are less interested in. Can a spine fellowship expose you to a good variety of cases?

I think a good referral doctor is one who understands the disease process and can refer you to the right subspecialist if needed. If you have done a gasserian ganglion block and see the outcome/complicaton of one, I think you will be a better diagnostician. It's like riding a bike. You will remember later and give your kids advice on how to ride it.

Do you refer your low back pain patients to another pain doc who does all that you do and more? why should they come back to you? What if the same patient later develop intractable postherpetic neuralgia that does not respond to oral meds? Should you refer him to THE OTHER pain doc who does sphenopalatine ganglion radiofrequency? Why wouldn't you not want to learn it if you could? Some well-known headache, neck pain, facial pain interventional pain specialists also do "spine" stuff.

My humble advice is "try to expose yourself to a good variety of cases in fellowship, becase it's too short". How many ESIs, facets and SI's do you need to be proficient, for crying-out-loud!! :mad:
 
Sometimes it's not about exposure...it's about comfortability. Some "pain physicians" I know do not feel comfortable doing cervical procedures given the risks involved. And given the basic demographics of cervical vs lumbar pathology, most will no doubt have more experience with the later. Just because you've seen one or two sphenopalatine blocks(which varies according to fellowship, both ANES and PM&R) does not necessarily mean you should be able to go out and do them willy nilly. I'm sure there would be plenty of malpractice lawyers would be licking their chops at the chance to put that doctor on the stand.

I agree, a fellowship made purely of ESIs, SIs, and MBBs for one year is likely overkill...but for some repetition makes them experts. Much like an IM doctor will refer to Cardiology or Pulmonology for something out of their realm of expertise(despite the fact that their residency exposes them to this and they are tested on it), we should not be so quick to judge people, just because they don't want to do(or feel comfortable with) certain procedures. Doesn't matter how many "crash course weekend reviews" on cadavers they do, cadavers don't sue or have catastrophic consequences when things go horribly wrong.
 
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First, I would like to state that this is only a problem for Physiatrists. All anesthesia pain fellowships are accredited and "spine" fellowships were in general created for Physiatrists.

The problem lies in the training philosophy of PM&R residency. Many Physiatrists, as you are all well aware, are entering the specialty with the intention of practicing "musculoskeletal" or "interventional" Physiatry. This is one of our talents. Anatomy, Kinesiology, biomechanics, muscle and nerve (yup, just like the AANEM's journal), rehabilitation. In not so many words, the non-surgical complement to a Neurosurgeon or Orthopaedic sports/spine surgeon. Look at the majority of Physiatrists who grandfathered into subspecialty certification. Most of them do not practice comprehensive pain, and I think it a bit unfair to accuse these practicioners of "cherry picking" certain patients for their practices. Most of these practicioners don't even call themselves "pain" docs. So you see, there is a difference between a "needle jockey/block jock" and a musculoskeletal physiatrist who performs a narrow scope of basic interventional pain proceedures. Most musculoskeletal Physiatrists perform peripher joint steroid injections. So, why should these physicians with documented training perform diligent workups of spine patients only to refer the injection to a "pain" doc?

Unfortunately, until interventional training and musculoskeletal medicine is fully embraced as part of the Physiatric training curriculum (meaning standardized), as we have done with electrodiagnostics, many Physiatrists will feel pressured to enter pain fellowships to gain procedural training and board eligibility. After fellowship many will seek employment in "spine" centers or musculoskeletal type practices. What if an EMG fellowship with substantial training in neuromuscular disease was required to perform basic carpal tunnel studies or radic screens? The thought is ridiculous if you ask me. So why can't we do the same with our interventional/MSK training?

Don't get me wrong, I believe Physiatrists make excellent pain docs (functional restoration, rehab, psychosocial approach, etc..), but until we do the right thing and provide residency training in basic needle skills, you will see a glut of Physiatrists (some interested in pain, some in MSK/spine) entering pain fellowships and then masquerading as "pain" docs in private practice. Provide solid training in basic needle skills for all during residency and then let those truly interested in pain and higher end procedures enter ACGME pain fellowships.

So, I do support a multidisciplinary pain residency, but I also see the difference between a pain doc and an interventional/musculoskeletal Physiatrist. I consider myself to have acquired pretty good musculoskeletal/structural evaluation skills through my residency training. However, there are several PM&R sports/spine/MSK fellowships available (RIC, Mike Geraci, Heidi Prather, etc..) that offer training far beyond my abilities at this point in time, in addition to basic needle skills, reinforcement of EMG skills and radiologic image interpretation. This is what PM&R fellowships offer that cannot be gained through a pain fellowship.

In summary, I believe you can be a highly skilled, safe and responsible interventionalist without doing a "pain" fellowship. Take for example, someone like a Curtis Slipman (well published, highly respected). I believe he was former editor of "Pain Physician" and maybe editing the new ISIS journal (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think anyone who has interviewed at his program would say he runs anything but a spine fellowship.

As an aside, maybe the leaders of the ABPMR are finally listening. There were actually questions covering interventional pain management (fluoroscopic images included) on this year's PM&R resident self assessment exam (SAE). :thumbup:
 
Disciple said:
First, I would like to state that this is only a problem for Physiatrists. All anesthesia pain fellowships are accredited and "spine" fellowships were in general created for Physiatrists.

The problem lies in the training philosophy of PM&R residency. Many Physiatrists, as you are all well aware, are entering the specialty with the intention of practicing "musculoskeletal" or "interventional" Physiatry. This is one of our talents. Anatomy, Kinesiology, biomechanics, muscle and nerve (yup, just like the AANEM's journal), rehabilitation. In not so many words, the non-surgical complement to a Neurosurgeon or Orthopaedic sports/spine surgeon. Look at the majority of Physiatrists who grandfathered into subspecialty certification. Most of them do not practice comprehensive pain, and I think it a bit unfair to accuse these practicioners of "cherry picking" certain patients for their practices. Most of these practicioners don't even call themselves "pain" docs. So you see, there is a difference between a "needle jockey/block jock" and a musculoskeletal physiatrist who performs a narrow scope of basic interventional pain proceedures. Most musculoskeletal Physiatrists perform peripher joint steroid injections. So, why should these physicians with documented training perform diligent workups of spine patients only to refer the injection to a "pain" doc?

Unfortunately, until interventional training and musculoskeletal medicine is fully embraced as part of the Physiatric training curriculum (meaning standardized), as we have done with electrodiagnostics, many Physiatrists will feel pressured to enter pain fellowships to gain procedural training and board eligibility. After fellowship many will seek employment in "spine" centers or musculoskeletal type practices. What if an EMG fellowship with substantial training in neuromuscular disease was required to perform basic carpal tunnel studies or radic screens? The thought is ridiculous if you ask me. So why can't we do the same with our interventional/MSK training?

Don't get me wrong, I believe Physiatrists make excellent pain docs (functional restoration, rehab, psychosocial approach, etc..), but until we do the right thing and provide residency training in basic needle skills, you will see a glut of Physiatrists (some interested in pain, some in MSK/spine) entering pain fellowships and then masquerading as "pain" docs in private practice. Provide solid training in basic needle skills for all during residency and then let those truly interested in pain and higher end procedures enter ACGME pain fellowships.

So, I do support a multidisciplinary pain residency, but I also see the difference between a pain doc and an interventional/musculoskeletal Physiatrist. I consider myself to have acquired pretty good musculoskeletal/structural evaluation skills through my residency training. However, there are several PM&R sports/spine/MSK fellowships available (RIC, Mike Geraci, Heidi Prather, etc..) that offer training far beyond my abilities at this point in time, in addition to basic needle skills, reinforcement of EMG skills and radiologic image interpretation. This is what PM&R fellowships offer that cannot be gained through a pain fellowship.

In summary, I believe you can be a highly skilled, safe and responsible interventionalist without doing a "pain" fellowship. Take for example, someone like a Curtis Slipman (well published, highly respected). I believe he was former editor of "Pain Physician" and maybe editing the new ISIS journal (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think anyone who has interviewed at his program would say he runs anything but a spine fellowship.

As an aside, maybe the leaders of the ABPMR are finally listening. There were actually questions covering interventional pain management (fluoroscopic images included) on this year's PM&R resident self assessment exam (SAE). :thumbup:


I just saw the list of the upcoming AAPMR Board members. It appears the right people have made their way to the top and wemay see that paradigm shift towards teaching residents about Pain Medicine. The past several administrations were staunchly against this. My $.02 after being a regional rep to the Resident Phsycians Council to the AAPMR and now having gone through an ACGME fellowship.
 
lobelsteve said:
I just saw the list of the upcoming AAPMR Board members. It appears the right people have made their way to the top and wemay see that paradigm shift towards teaching residents about Pain Medicine. The past several administrations were staunchly against this. My $.02 after being a regional rep to the Resident Phsycians Council to the AAPMR and now having gone through an ACGME fellowship.


Things are definitely changing, but like most social movements only a small minority of individuals are dragging the rest of the crowd kicking and screaming. I call the phenomenon, "The Curse of the Ampersand." Despite over 75 years of "integration", we remain to this day two fields, "Physical Medicine" and "Rehabilitation."

Agree with the notion that the core PM&R residency curriculum must evolve to reflect our society's current physiatric needs and technology (we are not sending polio patients to sanitariums and putting then iron lungs any longer), but who will train these residents? It's hard to imagine many physiatrists opting for academic careers after completing their potentially lucrative pain or spine fellowship...

Step 1: The Anesthesia, PM&R, and neurology RRC's must get closer together on these issues.

Step 2: Develop K-12 type Interdisciplinary Pain Scientist Training Programs programs tied directly to pain fellowships to investigate basic science pain, spinal pathology, and nociception questions.

Step 3: ?
 
drusso said:
Things are definitely changing, but like most social movements only a small minority of individuals are dragging the rest of the crowd kicking and screaming. I call the phenomenon, "The Curse of the Ampersand." Despite over 75 years of "integration", we remain to this day two fields, "Physical Medicine" and "Rehabilitation."

Agree. 1000 PASSOR members out of 7000+ total members of the AAPM&R. I'm skeptical that this PASSOR dissolution/reintegration will work, but I'm willing to see how things will play out.


Agree with the notion that the core PM&R residency curriculum must evolve to reflect our society's current physiatric needs and technology (we are not sending polio patients to sanitariums and putting then iron lungs any longer), but who will train these residents? It's hard to imagine many physiatrists opting for academic careers after completing their potentially lucrative pain or spine fellowship...

Personally, I don't think we need full on academicians to provide basic interventional training. At my program, one of our seniors was able to log 150+ spinal injections through a combination Anesthesia/Physiatry priv. practice ambulatory rotations. We also have rotations in spine, sports, general MSK clinic and chronic pain (narcotics, functional restoration). I believe this is enough to provide a "starter-set" for the average musculoskeletal Physiatrist looking to practice competently in an outpt job straight out of residency. During my fellowship interviews, I had the opportunity to observe how other programs provided interventional training. These included spine centers, private practice ambulatory rotations and Anesthesia pain clinic (if interdepartmental relations happened to be good). It's a matter of effort and priority. Unfortunately, at many programs it will never be a priority unless there is an official ACGME requirement. If 200 EMGs were not "required", I have no doubt that many programs would slack off on that as well. Perhaps we've always embraced electrodiagnostics because we were there from the beginning and have alot of heavy hitters in the field (Ernie Johnson, Dumitru, Robinson, etc.). Considering interventional pain management (as we know it today) has only been around for 10-15 yrs., I think it's only a matter of time before we Physiatrists double our representation and influence within the field.

At the AAP next month I believe there's going to be a lecture during the PDs conference on how to obtain resources for interventional training in a PM&R residency program. I'm sure it will generate some interesting discussion.
 
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