Concerns about Medical School

[2024 or 5 ?]

The University of Minnesota Medical School had the students pledge an oath.
Students began the oath by stating, "Our institution is located on Dakota land…We commit to uprooting the legacy and perpetuation of structural violence deeply embedded within the health care system."
"We recognize the inequities built by past and present traumas rooted in white supremacy, colonialism, the gender binary, ableism, and all other forms of oppression."

I was unaware schools made people pledge oaths.

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[TheFrenchiestFries]

I’m confused as to what the problem is lol this isn’t any different from the Hippocratic oath which isn’t like a legal agreement so don’t see why you’re concerned about it.

If you don’t agree with the values and mission of the school expressed in this legally unenforceable oath that badly then it’s probably not mission fit.

 

[KaiBuzz]

The first year med students write the oath for their class and they recite it at their white coat ceremony.

 

[Goro]

The University of Minnesota Medical School had the students pledge an oath.
Students began the oath by stating, "Our institution is located on Dakota land…We commit to uprooting the legacy and perpetuation of structural violence deeply embedded within the health care system."
"We recognize the inequities built by past and present traumas rooted in white supremacy, colonialism, the gender binary, ableism, and all other forms of oppression."

I was unaware schools made people pledge oaths.

You mean like the Hippocratic oath?

 

[ihoop24]

What's wrong with that?

 

[deleted1079620]

The University of Minnesota Medical School had the students pledge an oath.
Students began the oath by stating, "Our institution is located on Dakota land…We commit to uprooting the legacy and perpetuation of structural violence deeply embedded within the health care system."
"We recognize the inequities built by past and present traumas rooted in white supremacy, colonialism, the gender binary, ableism, and all other forms of oppression."

I was unaware schools made people pledge oaths.

I believe there is both a Hippocratic Oath and an Osteopathic Oath if you end up at a DO school.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

See A Call for a More Personalized Oath for Entering Medical... : Academic Medicine

There are many professional oaths and calls for including more social justice/awareness in the oaths students recite or prepare for their white coat ceremonies. Covered in the Becoming a Student Doctor course.

 

[FutureDrCoochies]

I don't understand what the concern is? To be a physician is inherently to recognize the intersectionality of all these factors and how they play into healthcare and quality of care for different racial groups.

 

[cj_cregg]

I believe there is both a Hippocratic Oath and an Osteopathic Oath if you end up at a DO school.

Some other schools are using the Declaration of Geneva which is kind of a nice one...and a little less dated than the Hippocratic oath where you promise to give money to your teachers if they ever go broke and train their children in medicine for free, and swear never to do surgery. As mentioned above, many schools also have the class write their own oath.

 

[PhD_to_DO]

The University of Minnesota Medical School had the students pledge an oath.
Students began the oath by stating, "Our institution is located on Dakota land…We commit to uprooting the legacy and perpetuation of structural violence deeply embedded within the health care system."
"We recognize the inequities built by past and present traumas rooted in white supremacy, colonialism, the gender binary, ableism, and all other forms of oppression."

I was unaware schools made people pledge oaths.

And the problem with this is what?

 

[Cowgal]

I believe there is both a Hippocratic Oath and an Osteopathic Oath if you end up at a DO school.

I don't understand what the concern is? To be a physician is inherently to recognize the intersectionality of all these factors and how they play into healthcare and quality of care for different racial groups.

And the problem with this is what?

The problem is this is extremism and far left propaganda. 🤮

 

[deleted771945]

The problem is this is extremism and far left propaganda. 🤮

Why do you think it is extremism?

 

[TheFrenchiestFries]

Why do you think it is extremism?

Just acknowledging the reality of what happened in this country the last 200 years is “left extremism” lmao

 

[cj_cregg]

The problem is this is extremism and far left propaganda. 🤮

The existence of historic policies and procedures that systematically and intentionally excluded people of color and other minority groups from accessing appropriate care (not to mention other basic human rights) is not far left propaganda, it is the truth. Nor is it propaganda that the legacy of these policies and procedures still exist in some ways in our healthcare system today, and in the minds of many of our patients. I have patients who lived through Jim Crow laws, through segregation, through lynchings in their community. Forced sterilization with the intent of eugenics was still going on in the 60s, the Tuskegee syphilis trial didn't end til the 70s. That is in my parents' lifetime. I have to imagine that some of the people who perpetrated those crimes are still alive today as well. Those scars don't just disappear in one generation. Much of the medical research that modern medicine is built on excluded people of color. It is undeniable that we have ongoing health disparities for disadvantaged populations. We have algorithms and treatment recommendations that we use TODAY that systematically disadvantage black patients or even date back to slavery-era beliefs or ideas about genetic adaptations to slavery (see HTN treatment guidelines for an example). It is really, really important to understand these things to understand how and why certain communities continue to have difficult relationships with the healthcare system, and how we as physicians can support these communities in getting the care they need.

I cannot imagine that debating this issue with an anonymous person on the internet is going to change your mind about anything, and frankly I don't see a point in engaging in a debate with someone who is so clearly ignorant about the basic facts of the history of medicine. But I would really, really encourage you to read up on the history of the intersection of race and medicine, and some more recent studies on unconscious bias in healthcare providers and its impact on care.

 

[Med Ed]

The problem is this is extremism and far left propaganda. 🤮

"And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

 

[PhD_to_DO]

The problem is this is extremism and far left propaganda. 🤮

Where is the so-called far left propaganda and extremism? Can you point out anything specific in the oath that is extremist or not true?

 

[lumya]

If Liberty and Loma Linda can impose "moral" values on their students than each school is free to choose what their mission and values are.

If you don't like it, don't apply.

 

[mlfpprf]

If Liberty and Loma Linda can impose "moral" values on their students than each school is free to choose what their mission and values are.

If you don't like it, don't apply.

Yep, vote with your wallet (figuratively and literally)

 

[BlackLotus95]

Are you possibly Canadian? I was surprised to find that med schools outside of the US tend not to do the oath thing after speaking with a Canadian med student about MCAT prep. I imagine it much like when my husband memorized the rifleman's creed for boot camp (which is a real thing and not just from Full Metal Jacket I discovered). You say it, there's tradition and meaning you should think about/apply to your practice of the field, and then you occasionally think about it whenever someone asks you "Hey so do docs really say an oath?"

 

[EArlyBirdGetsTheWorm]

Are you possibly Canadian? I was surprised to find that med schools outside of the US tend not to do the oath thing after speaking with a Canadian med student about MCAT prep. I imagine it much like when my husband memorized the rifleman's creed for boot camp (which is a real thing and not just from Full Metal Jacket I discovered). You say it, there's tradition and meaning you should think about/apply to your practice of the field, and then you occasionally think about it whenever someone asks you "Hey so do docs really say an oath?"

If someone’s Canadian don’t they still pledge their loyalty to the queen/king now I guess.
If anything I would rather have the Hippocratic oath over that.

 

[BlackLotus95]

If someone’s Canadian don’t they still pledge their loyalty to the queen/king now I guess.
If anything I would rather have the Hippocratic oath over that.

During medical school? Oh I don't know! I do know that some Canadian schools have chosen to get rid of the white coat ceremony all together for many reasons but the one I was told was because of a superiority issue in comparison to other fields in healthcare or something in that area of thought. You just go to orientation then buy the white coats from the bookstore. Which I agree, I have a preference of celebrating the beginning of medical school. Life is short, you only get so many instances to throw a party.

 

[neurodoc]

"Our institution is located on Dakota land…We commit to uprooting the legacy and perpetuation of structural violence deeply embedded within the health care system."
"We recognize the inequities built by past and present traumas rooted in white supremacy, colonialism, the gender binary, ableism, and all other forms of oppression."

I'm sure most of us are firmly opposed to "structural violence" (although not sure exactly what that is) and all forms of oppression, regardless of its motive or cause. I must wonder about the specific cited causes of violence and oppression, as these seem to reflect a particular part of the political spectrum and ideology.

The history of various political/ideological oath requirements for University, Government and other jobs (think of the MaCarthy era) that ought to make folks worry about this kind of Oath. Interestingly enough, those who might be members of the political spectrum that most suffered in the McCarthy era seem to be responsible for insisting on oaths like this one.

 

[ethereal_fae]

"Our institution is located on Dakota land…We commit to uprooting the legacy and perpetuation of structural violence deeply embedded within the health care system."
"We recognize the inequities built by past and present traumas rooted in white supremacy, colonialism, the gender binary, ableism, and all other forms of oppression."

I'm sure most of us are firmly opposed to "structural violence" (although not sure exactly what that is) and all forms of oppression, regardless of its motive or cause. I must wonder about the specific cited causes of violence and oppression, as these seem to reflect a particular part of the political spectrum and ideology.

The history of various political/ideological oath requirements for University, Government and other jobs (think of the MaCarthy era) that ought to make folks worry about this kind of Oath. Interestingly enough, those who might be members of the political spectrum that most suffered in the McCarthy era seem to be responsible for insisting on oaths like this one.

if you're unfamiliar with what structural violence has existed in or been perpetrated by our healthcare system then I recommend that you read this book, as a starter

 

[Goro]

if you're unfamiliar with what structural violence has existed in or been perpetrated by our healthcare system then I recommend that you read this book, as a starter

To that one add the book Bad Blood.

 

[tompremed]

The intent of the new oath maybe commendable but seems to be affected too much by recent events. Considering that the students will be keeping the oaths throughout their medical education career, i.e. decades, one would think that the oath needs to be more thought out and make sure it can stand the test of time. After all, "road to hell is paved with good intentions" .

 

[eigen]

The intent of the new oath maybe commendable but seems to be affected too much by recent events. Considering that the students will be keeping the oaths throughout their medical education career, i.e. decades, one would think that the oath needs to be more thought out and make sure it can stand the test of time. After all, "road to hell is paved with good intentions" .

I mean... given that the students in question are the ones who wrote it... don't you think that's their decision to make, not ours?

 

[cj_cregg]

"Our institution is located on Dakota land…We commit to uprooting the legacy and perpetuation of structural violence deeply embedded within the health care system."
"We recognize the inequities built by past and present traumas rooted in white supremacy, colonialism, the gender binary, ableism, and all other forms of oppression."

I'm sure most of us are firmly opposed to "structural violence" (although not sure exactly what that is) and all forms of oppression, regardless of its motive or cause. I must wonder about the specific cited causes of violence and oppression, as these seem to reflect a particular part of the political spectrum and ideology.

The history of various political/ideological oath requirements for University, Government and other jobs (think of the MaCarthy era) that ought to make folks worry about this kind of Oath. Interestingly enough, those who might be members of the political spectrum that most suffered in the McCarthy era seem to be responsible for insisting on oaths like this one.

Sorry, I'm a little confused about the point you're making here. Are you saying that being against discrimination based on race/ethnicity, ability, gender, etc. is associated with a certain political party? I would certainly hope that people who affiliate themselves with any political party are opposed to that sort of discrimination.

 

[galaxybrain]

UMN student here. Our oath is written by a small minority of our class, who volunteer to be ‘representatives of the class,’ ahead of the white coat ceremony every year. No one forces us to say anything… you could certainly remain silent while the oath is being read out. To some students, the oath may be very important, but for many it has little to no bearing on our medical education, except for perhaps signaling the values of some of our classmates.

 

[tompremed]

UMN student here. Our oath is written by a small minority of our class, who volunteer to be ‘representatives of the class,’ ahead of the white coat ceremony every year. No one forces us to say anything… you could certainly remain silent while the oath is being read out. To some students, the oath may be very important, but for many it has little to no bearing on our medical education, except for perhaps signaling the values of some of our classmates.

So this oath is in addition to the "Hippocratic Oath", or replacing it?

 

[cj_cregg]

So this oath is in addition to the "Hippocratic Oath", or replacing it?

Can't speak to UMN but many schools use oaths other than the hippocratic oath these days as it is pretty dated (would encourage you to actually read the text). Many schools, including my alma mater, instead use the Declaration of Geneva and/or a student-written oath.

 

[galaxybrain]

So this oath is in addition to the "Hippocratic Oath", or replacing it?

The student-written oath is the only one we use.

 

[neurodoc]

Sorry, I'm a little confused about the point you're making here. Are you saying that being against discrimination based on race/ethnicity, ability, gender, etc. is associated with a certain political party? I would certainly hope that people who affiliate themselves with any political party are opposed to that sort of discrimination.

The point I was making is that there is a history of oaths, especially ones that touch on political ideas, being used in ways that are worrisome from the point of civil liberties...i.e. leading to their infringement...This happened here in the USA in the 1950's during the McCarthy era, and has happened in other countries, notably in Nazi Germany.

I'm surprised folks didn't pick up on that.

 

[gyngyn]

This happened here in the USA in the 1950's during the McCarthy era, and has happened in other countries, notably in Nazi Germany.

I'm surprised folks didn't pick up on that.

This is not that.
Closing.