Conflicted About Counseling or Clinical Ph.D.

[CogNeuroGuy]

As I spend my last vacation day here in Miami in the hotel room, I thought I would share a conflict I am trying to resolve in regards to fall applications for doctoral programs.

I am trying to decide whether applying to a combination of counseling psychology and clinical psychology would be the best route, or focusing on either clinical programs with a neuropsychology emphasis (research opportunities or course offerings) or counseling psychology with a good foundation in rehabilitation or general therapeutic techniques. I have an interest in LGBT research, but my current research is within clinical neuropsychology (specifically AD, FTD, concussion and TBI, teleneuropsychology and sports neuropsychology). My main goal is to provide neuropsychological assessment as well as intervention planning in a rehabilitation format. After speaking with many of the doctoral students I research with, I know that a 50/50 split of assessment and therapy can be attained (with some balancing efforts with another practitioner of course). I am fairly open minded about my career path. My long-term goal (end goal) would be to work with LGBT and other minority populations that have both neurological and non-neurological deficits and to provide rehabilitative measures to cope, manage, plan, etc.

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[CheetahGirl]

I would go for the clinical neuropsych. You will still get adequate training in therapeutic techniques and you may want to think about (and ask during interviews) what each programs' qualifying exam entails. It will give you an idea of how they prepare their master's level folks to be doctoral candidates (successful completion of the clinical qualifying exam allows you to call yourself a 'doctoral candidate' so it is a pivotal juncture in your training usually given after all coursework is completed). What stands out for me as being unique in your post is your current research and future goals...which seems to lend nicely to a clinical neuropsych degree. That said, I don't know enough about counseling psych programs to to say they would be a better fit, so i'm bias.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

I would go for the clinical neuropsych. You will still get adequate training in therapeutic techniques and you may want to think about (and ask during interviews) what each programs' qualifying exam entails. It will give you an idea of how they prepare their master's level folks to be doctoral candidates (successful completion of the clinical qualifying exam allows you to call yourself a 'doctoral candidate' so it is a pivotal juncture in your training usually given after all coursework is completed). What stands out for me as being unique in your post is your current research and future goals...which seems to lend nicely to a clinical neuropsych degree. That said, I don't know enough about counseling psych programs to to say they would be a better fit, so i'm bias.

Thanks CheetahGirl for your input; I completely agree that what I am doing now really aligns well along the side of a clinical program vs. a counseling program. However (maybe this is off base), I have noticed a huge trend amongst counseling psych. programs to favor or lean in the direction towards people who have an undergraduate degree in a field that is not psychology (my major was sociology with a minor in psychology). As I research programs and look at their graduate student profiles, I find a common theme (psychology, neuroscience, child development, human development, statistics, biology)...roughly in this order is how prevalent these majors typically admit in terms of undergraduate education alone (not withstanding other factors). Since I knew my minor would put me at a disadvantage, I thought that completing an experimental psych.-based master's program would at least offset my major in sociology, especially with the research, publications, clinical exposure, etc. that I receive at at my research institution. Also, I find that since I really do want a good grounding in the therapeutics of psychology that perhaps the counseling path would be a viable option. What are your thoughts?

 

[CheetahGirl]

Thanks CheetahGirl for your input;

What are your thoughts?

You're welcome. I think we need to hear from Counseling psych folks if there are any out there.

More thoughts & then, I'll run along...I think you can attain all that (good grounding in therapeutics of psychology and more) from a good clinical psych program that also has courses and externship placements in neuropsych, eventually landing a neuropsych internship, but your particular edge is the focus on therapeutics for the LGBT community (so you could supplement your training with group training and individual one-on-one therapy that you will pick up along the way - TIP: Request LGBT clients at the start of placements, that way supervisors can make note of you if a client asks for a specific-type of therapist & the site is accommodating). When you get to post-doc, you can figure out if you want to go further with neuropsych or go in a different direction, but at least you will have the neuropsych foundation and the approx 6 clinical neuropsych batteries (it varies) that are required by most internships that are neuropsych -focused, plus you will be working with a community you respect and will gain tons of experience there. However, if you go counseling psych, I believe you cannot combine neuropsych training into the therapeutic education (but correct me if I am wrong, Counseling folks).

It all sounds good to me.

 

[MCParent]

A counseling psych program in a psych department that also has a clinical or cog-neuro program is a better bet. There may be counseling programs that are housed in departments of ed (where many counseling psych programs are housed) that have good relationships with the clinical program or that have their own neuro-interested people, but I'm not aware of them.

As a counseling psych person, my advice is: If *know* you want to do clinical neuropsych, go to a strong clinical neuropsych program as the first choice (to optimize work with LGBT people, I'd also lean toward programs in bigger cities but that's probably not *essential*).

There are many of us in counseling psych who are interested in neuro (all of my undergrad advanced coursework was neuro and I thought I would go neuropsych for a while, and I myself remain interested in it) but in reality you will get better networking and likely better experiences in a clinical neuropsych program, if clin neuro is your career goal. It is probably easier to do LGBT research in a neuropsych program, than it is to do neuro research in a counseling psych program.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I recall reading an article not too long ago that reported counseling psych programs are closing down. I don't recall the details and maybe the growth in neuropsych is part of that. I would think that neuropsych would be "clinical" as opposed to "counseling". When I taught an Intro to Psych class, the textbook made a distinction between clinical vs counseling by stating that clinical emphasizes working with people with psychopathology whereas counseling works with "normal people". I've always wondered if the distinction is helpful or useful.

 

[MCParent]

I recall reading an article not too long ago that reported counseling psych programs are closing down.

Two or three closed in the worst time of the recession. No, counseling psych programs are not "closing down" nor did neuro play some role in that.

When I taught an Intro to Psych class, the textbook made a distinction between clinical vs counseling by stating that clinical emphasizes working with people with psychopathology whereas counseling works with "normal people". I've always wondered if the distinction is helpful or useful.

It's not. My pracs were in primary care at a VA and doing cognitive assessments, as well as a student counseling center. At counseling centers I treated conditions including PTSD, eating disorders, substance use, etc. Pracs where I am at presently that involve counseling psych students include rotations in psycho-oncology, neuro assessment, forensics and corections, etc. Counseling psych's origins are in vocational counseling (after WW2 when veterans returned to the US and were seeking education and jobs) and that continues to influence the emphasis of the area but it is not a definitive split.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Shows you how little I know about counseling psych or the author of the text that I used. Unfortunately, I have not worked with a psychologist who went to a counseling psych program so have had little exposure. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

I recall reading an article not too long ago that reported counseling psych programs are closing down. I don't recall the details and maybe the growth in neuropsych is part of that. I would think that neuropsych would be "clinical" as opposed to "counseling". When I taught an Intro to Psych class, the textbook made a distinction between clinical vs counseling by stating that clinical emphasizes working with people with psychopathology whereas counseling works with "normal people". I've always wondered if the distinction is helpful or useful.

I have noticed an opposite; I have been seeing new counseling or counseling/school psychology Ph.D. programs arising that are going through the process of APA accred. (Northeastern University, UMASS-Boston in particular). I actually had a discussion today with a faculty member I work with who did a Psy.D. in clinical psych. and spoke with him about my conflict in regards to selecting a program. He had reiterated to me that if post-doc and eventual board certification in clinical neuropsychology is a goal of mine (which it is), that not many counseling folks are getting accepted into these post-doc sites. I had mentioned to him that I had been researching a lot of the APPCN post-doc sites that accept counseling psych. Ph.D. students as well as emphasizes the rehabilitation and therapy within neuropsychology. In Texas alone, I have found that MD Anderson and Baylor (Houston, not Dallas) emphasizes these goals along with another in San Antonio. Also, I am finding several places in the northeast that are geared towards this. Would anyone here know of the likelihood of a counseling psych. Ph.D. getting accepted for a post-doc in clinical neuropsych.? I would think that with my master's coursework being heavy in neuroscience that it would really compliment the coursework in a counseling psych. program.

Thanks again for the continued feedback from everyone

 

[MCParent]

Here's what I found: Generally, counseling psych people tend to self-select into counseling centers. But, every single counseling psych person I have personally known who *wanted* a hospital internship got one (I got interviews at AMC settings myself, though I ranked a UCC higher so I've no idea what they thought of me). Every one of those people also pracced in hospitals and/or VAs, and has multiple health-related publications. I don't think a couns degree shuts many doors (it might shut a few), though you would have to capitalize on relationships that may not be as developed as they would be at a parallel clinical neuro programs.

 

[CheetahGirl]

You could also apply to both types of programs and see where the chips may fall. Columbia has a great counseling psych PhD.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

You could also apply to both types of programs and see where the chips may fall. Columbia has a great counseling psych PhD.

Yes they do. The best thing I can think of is to really emphasize my neuroscience background, neuropsych. research and intern experience when I apply to clinical programs and emphasize the rehabilitation, therapy and LGBT interests for the counseling programs.

 

[WisNeuro]

There are definitely exceptions, even for past trainees that I have had, but generally, counseling students don't have nearly the same foundation for neuro that clinical students from programs with a strong neuro sense have. That doesn't mean that neuro internships and postdocs are off the table, just that to get some of the top ones, you're gonna have to bust your ass.

 

[Stannis]

Look into Georgia State University. It has both a dual clinical and community psych phd track and a clinical neuropsychology phd track. On paper, and generally in coursework, you'll be choosing one or the other. But the prac experiences could totally overlap. I don't know if there's anything specific to what you're interested in (neuropsych work with an LGBT population) but I know it's possible to get a degree in clinical neuropsych and do community-oriented (very similar to counseling-oriented) clinical practicums (i.e., providing therapy, doing prevention work) that are LGBT-focused.