Considering a retake with 36 (please read)

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shoenberg3

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Before you turn up your noses at this notion, please do read about my situation.

California-resident, non-URM male here. I am currently a SMP student at a highly competitive/intense 1-yr program (think Georgetown, Cincinnati etc.); I am doing OK but not superbly in this program, expecting to finish with around 3.7 by June. My second MCAT (first time was way back in 2010 with 30) is a 36 (13VR, 12PS, 11BS).

I do have extensive clinical, mentoring, shadowing, and public health experiences. Wide array of research too with 6 publications and one abstract. Also, have unique non-medical talent with significant awards and recognition. Letter of recs should be pretty solid.

Of course, the glaring weakness in my application is my horrid UG GPA of 3.25-3.3 (albeit with ridiculous upward trend at an UG institution that is consistently ranked top 5 in the nation)

I plan on applying this june VERY broadly (including California DO schools) and early.
Given my somewhat lacklustre performance in the SMP thus far (and of course, my godawful uGPA), I am starting to get quite worried about my chances at any school. The dean of admissions at the medical school of my SMP brought an idea of retaking my MCAT of 36, which is something I did not consider before. I would be taking it in July after I submit my applications (so schools might see pending when they do a first pass). Here are the pros and cons of retaking my MCAT, at least from my view.

Pros:
-I still believe I could have gotten much better than 36. I was scoring 14-15s on VR (I did receive 2400 on the SAT way back then), 11-13 on BS and PS on later AAMC tests. Particularly with the intense biology/physiology experience in the SMP, I feel confident I can raise my BS score, which happens to be the lowest. Less so for the PS and VR
-If i feel that i have performed anything but superbly on the day of test, i can void it, without too many consequences
-something that my admissions dean brought up: even if the schools just see that I am registered for it again, they might think that 1) i am really devoted to getting into med and 2)i am so capable that i think of improving from a 36
-raising the score to a 38+ would definitely make me a more compelling candidate overall... would it even provide me with a glimmer of hope at a lower-ranked california school (like those newly created UCs, loma linda, or DO)? probably not, but at worst, it would help my chances overall, including the host medical school at my SMP and other OOS schools

Cons:
-36 is obviously a solid score and it would be quite easy to score below it, which would be very bad indeed.
-the timing is bit awkward; schools might see this score in time.. or they might not.
-it's gonna be tough studying for MCATs right after I submit my AMCAS and completion of SMP. I only have 1 month and I know that I might have to work on secondaries too in this time period.
-the obvious time and money commitment required
-even if I do improve the overall score by one or two points, would that really make a difference (I guess this is the real question that needs to be answered)?

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So even if I were to improve my score to a 38 or 39 (and yes, I realize this is a tall task for anyone), it would not make any difference in my situation?
 
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California-resident, non-URM male here. I am currently a SMP student at a highly competitive/intense 1-yr program (think Georgetown, Cincinnati etc.); I am doing OK but not superbly in this program, expecting to finish with around 3.7 by June. My second MCAT (first time was way back in 2010 with 30) is a 36 (13VR, 12PS, 11BS). I am considering retaking a 36, (and yes, this might sound silly) because I truly believe I can do better, particularly after the SMP (but this is whole another discussion), since my BS was the lowest while VR the highest.

I have extensive clinical, mentoring, shadowing, and public health experiences, including leadership roles. I also have wide array of research with 6 publications and one abstract. Also, I have unique non-medical talent with significant awards and recognition. Letter of recs should be pretty solid and I feel that my PS and activities section should be pretty good, because I put so many painstaking hours to it with various feedback.

Of course, the glaring weakness in my application is my horrid UG GPA of 3.25-3,3 (albeit with ridiculous upward trend at an UG institution that is consistently ranked top 5 in the nation)

I plan on applying this june VERY broadly (including California DO schools) and early.
Given my somewhat lacklustre performance in the SMP thus far (and of course, my godawful uGPA), I am starting to get quite worried about my chances at any school. I know I have a fair shot at my host SMP medical school, but even that is far from a guarantee. But how about other schools? Would receiving a 38 or 39 on the MCAT make any difference in getting a shot at schools? How about California DO schools? Am I in range for these?

Thanks!
 
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I think you'll be fine as is if you apply broadly and are not restricting yourself to just CA schools. Great score, good luck! (If you have questions about DO feel free to PM me)
 
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dont retake the mcat, it's so risky and some schools are so picky about mcat retakes it just makes things more annoyingly and complicated. you have a great mcat score, stick with it. besides you're already beyond the range hardcore studying usually takes people. the aamcs throws in a ton of random stuff on the mcat, some of which isn't even listed in the outline and unless you can guarantee you will only miss 4 questions or less in each section (just a number i thought) dont do it.
 
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The risk and amount of work you need to put in greatly outweighs any benefit. Don't retake. The difference between a 36 and a 38 is only a handful of questions, and I don't think that small point difference would make or break your application at all. I would not do it.
 
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My argument (to play devil's advocate) is that there isn't that much risk nor amount of work involved, at least relatively speaking. For risk, as I said, I have the option of voiding, unless I feel fairly confident I performed superbly. The amount of work is not that much either, as I plan on putting in only one month of intense studying (I feel I need to primarily focus on PS and ochem), and it isn't really relevant anyway, since I am willing to put the work necessary to boost my application in any way possible.

Then, you might ask, why don't you just go ahead and take it?
I guess I have the just point to the cons listed, namely a 1-3 point increase from 36 might not do anything for me; I have secondaries to work on during prep time; the timing is weird; and studying for MCATs again doesn't sound too fun...
 
Adcoms may look at it negatively as bad judgement to risk doing worse or no improvement when you already have a solid score. You'd be better off retaking some of your low grades to bring up your GPA or utilize AACOMAS grade forgiveness policy.
 
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Beth_W737:

Interesting; as I posted on the OP, the medical admission dean at my SMP actually said that at least he would view it FAVORABLY, as it shows the confidence in my ability and devotion to gain acceptance to med school. But I can certainly see how adcoms can see the other side of coin.
 
There's too much luck involved in getting beyond a 35 with the limited number of questions on today's mcat. I think adcoms know this too. If you got a 36, I'd leave well enough alone.
 
Not worth it. Even if it works out it the upside isn't much and definitely isn't worth the risk.
 
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OP, at California, SMP 3.7 with UG 3.25 to 3.3, I see where you come from. I read your post back and forward a few times and try to put myself in your shoes. Reluctantly, I vote with the rest of the SDNers here: NO!

I agree with you and your admission dean technically speaking. However, the margin between 45 to 36 is 2/3 point (2 to 3 questions among 52 and 40 questions each) up and down for the sections. The risk of getting stuck at 36 or even lower is SO HUGE. The odd is not in your favor, BIG TIME. If you happen to get 39....it probably will not impact much comparing with 36 when they look at your UG 3.2-3.3............unless you jump to 41 or 42 area. Can you guarantee that with absolute certainty?

I do, I feel you..............but NO.

OK, last option, DO then....
 
Scoring a 36 shows a high level of intelligence and dedication. You will not appear unqualified to any schools by having a 36. If you take it again you not only run the risk of not scoring that high again but also the two or so extra points you will need to work so hard for will do little for you. You would be better off strengthening a part of your resume that doesn't have a stellar number(like a 36) or getting more experience.
 
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You're highly competitive for any DO program.



I plan on applying this june VERY broadly (including California DO schools) and early.

There are a number of MD schools that reward reinvention. You have redeemed your UG GPA with an excellent SMP performance. There is no need to re-take an outstanding MCAT (going from, say, a 95%ile to 98%ile isn't that much of a difference). Most people who make this mistake in thinking end up going down, staying the same, or only incrementally going up.


I agree 100% with my learned colleague gyngyn. The damage it would do to you to retake (showing poor judgement, a possible perfectionist attitude) vastly outweighs any good it will do. There are a number of people here on SDN who get incensed by this, but it's the truth. So be satisfied and proud of what you've done and how far you've some.


Given my somewhat lacklustre performance in the SMP thus far (and of course, my godawful uGPA), I am starting to get quite worried about my chances at any school. I know I have a fair shot at my host SMP medical school, but even that is far from a guarantee. But how about other schools? Would receiving a 38 or 39 on the MCAT make any difference in getting a shot at schools? How about California DO schools? Am I in range for these?

Thanks![/quote]
 
I really appreciate every single one of these responses. Thank you

I guess the consensus is that scoring 1-2 points higher in this case would not make a difference in my chances? And even if there is to be a slight improvement, that 1-3 point improvement would be not as good as being able to write better (and earlier) secondaries?

For those who said the adcoms will view this retake (even with 1-3 point improvement) with negativity: is this based on having specific connections to the admissions process or is it a inkling and "common sense?"
I don't mean to sound combative, but since my admissions dean at the medical school said something quite opposite, I would like confirmation with some confidence that other medical school adcoms might indeed have a different view.


Thank you
 
Thank you for your responses. So the idea is that improving to a 38-39 would not impact my chances much, if at all, and might even give adcoms a poor impression?

On the other hand, how competitive are the California DO schools? I assume that they must be somewhat more competitive than DOs outside California?
 
For those who said the adcoms will view this retake (even with 1-3 point improvement) with negativity: is this based on having specific connections to the admissions process or is it a inkling and "common sense?"
I don't mean to sound combative, but since my admissions dean at the medical school said something quite opposite, I would like confirmation with some confidence that other medical school adcoms might indeed have a different view.
Thank you

It's been said by adcoms on SDN before.
In fact, @gyngyn is an adcom
 
I really appreciate every single one of these responses. Thank you

I guess the consensus is that scoring 1-2 points higher in this case would not make a difference in my chances? And even if there is to be a slight improvement, that 1-3 point improvement would be not as good as being able to write better (and earlier) secondaries?

For those who said the adcoms will view this retake (even with 1-3 point improvement) with negativity: is this based on having specific connections to the admissions process or is it a inkling and "common sense?"
I don't mean to sound combative, but since my admissions dean at the medical school said something quite opposite, I would like confirmation with some confidence that other medical school adcoms might indeed have a different view.


Thank you

We will not interview someone whose judgement is so bad that they re-take an unexpired 36 MCAT.

See above response from an adcom member.
 
Ah okay.
I really appreciate all of the help here; I guess I don't really have other options than to reallocate the time to roll out killer secondaries instead.
 
Although, I'm not in your boat (struggling to break 30), based on what the admin panel (made up the admissions directors from John's Hopkins, GWU, Georgetown and LMU DCOM) said at the Old PreMed Conference last year, this would "demonstrate poor judgement from the candidate." The director of admissions at Hopkins even went so far as to say that he strongly believed that anyone that could score above a 30 would be able to succeed there and that the school was more interested in secondary factors than a jump of a point or two after the 30 threshold.
 
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Pay very careful attention, because it doesn't seem like we're getting through. I say this as an AdCom member with >10 year's experience.

Anyone who retakes an MCAT and who goes from a 36 to a 38 would be viewed with a great deal of skepticism at my school. You would definitely be called out on this (privately) and a statement like "I thought I could do better" would probably send you right to the wait list, because we get nervous around perfectionist types who would be in our office all the time whining about getting a 97 on an exam and wanting a 99.


I guess the consensus is that scoring 1-2 points higher in this case would not make a difference in my chances? And even if there is to be a slight improvement, that 1-3 point improvement would be not as good as being able to write better (and earlier) secondaries?

Obviously retake and apply to your specific school. But don't bother with gyngyn's.

For those who said the adcoms will view this retake (even with 1-3 point improvement) with negativity: is this based on having specific connections to the admissions process or is it a inkling and "common sense?"
I don't mean to sound combative, but since my admissions dean at the medical school said something quite opposite, I would like confirmation with some confidence that other medical school adcoms might indeed have a different view.


Western, CCOM and TUCOM like high MCAT scores. Your 36 will be otustanding for any COM, including mine. I'd say you're a lock for IIs.

On the other hand, how competitive are the California DO schools? I assume that they must be somewhat more competitive than DOs outside California?
 
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Dear Goro:

Thank you for that. I have considered a retake not because I am a perfectionist but because I understand what a dire situation I am in otherwise with my horrid GPA, and in an attempt to improve my application any way possible in the remaining time.
I now understand that this is a bad idea in many schools outside my own so I am leaning heavily against a retake.
Thank you again for your help
 
All that will matter at this stage for you is how did your grades actually trend? Did you have a 4.0 your last two years of school? What were your courses like? Did you take challenging courses? Why did you really do so badly at the beginning of your college career? In med school admissions GPA trumps MCAT score. So while schools would love a high GPA and a high MCAT score, almost all will prefer a higher GPA with an average MCAT score than a higher MCAT score with a below average GPA. PM with more about your profile and I can give you a more accurate response. - Admissions to Medicine
 
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In med school admissions GPA trumps MCAT score. So while schools would love a high GPA and a high MCAT score, almost all will prefer a higher GPA with an average MCAT score than a higher MCAT score with a below average GPA.
This varies on the school, the committee and the particular application. I would venture that, to some degree, the opposite is more likely to be true since the MCAT equalizes differences in grading. To the degree that there is marked disparity [a very high MCAT and a very low GPA], there is a great deal of reluctance to accept.
 
Professor gyngyn, is this reluctance applies to the primary? What happen if the student has below average GPA because of various issues (personal and/or health) and he/she is on the up trend because all those problems are behind now and the student now shows his/her capability. That student scores very high MCAT. If he/she get cut out at the primary, he/she never would be given the opportunity to explain why he/she had bad grade at the beginning of UG, isn't it?
 
This varies on the school, the committee and the particular application. I would venture that, to some degree, the opposite is more likely to be true since the MCAT equalizes differences in grading. To the degree that there is marked disparity [a very high MCAT and a very low GPA], there is a great deal of reluctance to accept.

I disagree, The MCAT is an exam, which almost every admissions officer will agree has no real bearing on how qualified someone is to become a doctor. I agree that it is an equalizer, but with that same thought, it is an exam that can be studied for. This explains students with low GPA's and high MCAT scores. I am positive that all schools will look at an applicant with a 4.0 GPA in biology and a 27 MCAT score more closely than a student with a 36 MCAt score and a 2.7 GPA in bio. Take a look at the "Outliers" in med school admissions - not just med school admissions, but any admissions, you will see that it is almost always (80%+) the students with the higher GPA's and lower than average standardized test scores that are admitted. -Admissionstomedicine
 
I disagree, The MCAT is an exam, which almost every admissions officer will agree has no real bearing on how qualified someone is to become a doctor. I agree that it is an equalizer, but with that same thought, it is an exam that can be studied for. This explains students with low GPA's and high MCAT scores. I am positive that all schools will look at an applicant with a 4.0 GPA in biology and a 27 MCAT score more closely than a student with a 36 MCAt score and a 2.7 GPA in bio. Take a look at the "Outliers" in med school admissions - not just med school admissions, but any admissions, you will see that it is almost always (80%+) the students with the higher GPA's and lower than average standardized test scores that are admitted. -Admissionstomedicine
Though it is only a test, it happens to be exactly the type of test that a successful physician will need to take over and over throughout his career. GPA is also important as it provides longitudinal data, but MCAT scores can be relied upon to provide a standard across all schools, states and applicants. Neither of these metrics has been reliably shown to predict the most important qualities needed to be a physician.
 
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Professor gyngyn, is this reluctance applies to the primary? What happen if the student has below average GPA because of various issues (personal and/or health) and he/she is on the up trend because all those problems are behind now and the student now shows his/her capability. That student scores very high MCAT. If he/she get cut out at the primary, he/she never would be given the opportunity to explain why he/she had bad grade at the beginning of UG, isn't it?
A complete reversal of whatever caused the low GPA may be taken into consideration as long as the GPA clears the screening threshold and the reason for past failures has been addressed.
 
Great discussion here; I really appreciate every single post. What is roughly the screening threshold as mentioned here?
 
A complete reversal of whatever caused the low GPA may be taken into consideration as long as the GPA clears the screening threshold and the reason for past failures has been addressed.

Deeply appreciate your comment, sir!
 
Pay very careful attention, because it doesn't seem like we're getting through. I say this as an AdCom member with >10 year's experience.

Anyone who retakes an MCAT and who goes from a 36 to a 38 would be viewed with a great deal of skepticism at my school. You would definitely be called out on this (privately) and a statement like "I thought I could do better" would probably send you right to the wait list, because we get nervous around perfectionist types who would be in our office all the time whining about getting a 97 on an exam and wanting a 99.

Bingo.
 
Several folks with much more admissions experience than me have already chimed in here, but I'll just add a quick comment about what I tell my students when it comes to re-taking scores that are "adequate but disappointing" (e.g. the kid who got a 31 but was testing at a 35 on practice tests, or the DO kid who got a 27 but was testing at a 30, or even the kid who got a 36 but was testing 40+)

The MCAT is just a way of signalling to the committee, "Hey, you know this ridiculously abstract reading and critical thinking test? Yeah I can handle it. I know how to read, I know how to think, even on random stuff like a passage about the interplay of light and shadow in late abstract expressionist installation sculptural work post-Rauschenberg"

It's just a box you check off. Once it's checked off, you go to the interview, and it's the interview where you get into med school.

So let's say you re-take the MCAT and the heavens align and you get a 42 instead of your 36. What are they going to do? Interview you more? Intervieweyer? Interviewest?

You say you've got an interesting non-med background and you've got a great MCAT score. That should be enough to pique their interest. They'll interview you. Do good. Get in. Be happy.

Good luck! :)

-Bryan
 
I really appreciate every single one of these responses. Thank you

I guess the consensus is that scoring 1-2 points higher in this case would not make a difference in my chances? And even if there is to be a slight improvement, that 1-3 point improvement would be not as good as being able to write better (and earlier) secondaries?

For those who said the adcoms will view this retake (even with 1-3 point improvement) with negativity: is this based on having specific connections to the admissions process or is it a inkling and "common sense?"
I don't mean to sound combative, but since my admissions dean at the medical school said something quite opposite, I would like confirmation with some confidence that other medical school adcoms might indeed have a different view.


Thank you

I have seen a lot of people go through the application process over the last few years and the repetitive theme seems to be that as long as the numbers are in a reasonable range, people get accepted/rejected due to how they sell or portray themselves with EC's, LOR'S, personal statements, and interviews. For example I know someone who applied with a 3.7 and a 23 MCAT to a reasonably competitive state MD school. She got an interview right away and was accepted almost immediately. This girl had a very unique story/background that sold very well and her personal statement was damn good because she showed some very critical life experience that lead her to the medical field. The very same year, there was a student at my school who had a 4.0 and 40 MCAT and did not even receive an interview to the same school and others. This guy had no experience outside of school because all he did was study and never made an attempt to make himself an asset outside of his academics. In fact, I know more people who got into MD schools with MCATs under 30 than above. If you look at the average MCAT score of accepted applicants for every American MD school, you will not see an average above 34 or 35 and those are the very best. Most schools have an average of around 30 in their accepted applicants. If your score is above the average of students at the most competitive schools, the probability that a higher score will help your chances is pretty slim. Like this guy above ^ said, the MCAT shows your ability to think critically under pressure and a 36 says you are damn good at it. The difference between a 36 an say a 38 is a couple of questions so getting those extra points wont really boost you credibility in terms of what you have to offer after scoring a 36. Think about all the work you will need to do to score higher and what else you could use that time to do instead. Probably something much more beneficial to you as an applicant. From what I have seen and heard from admissions deans is that research and clinical experience have a significant impact on admission chances when the numbers are there.
 
Thank you for the response; but for me the numbers aren't there in terms of GPA. That is why I feel that truly excellent MCAT score would do something to show my capability despite the GPA or otherwise stand out. However, based on the responses on this thread, I am mostly likely going to decide against a retake.
 
like I said before, I think your gpa perception is skewed. most people who do smps have gpas around in that range, so while it's lower than md avgs, it's not "horrid". 3.7 at one of the harder smps out there (georgetown or cincinnati like you mentioned) is good. You sound as if the smp isn't going to help at all (i.e. like someone who didn't do bad enough to blow their chances completely, but not good enough to get any benefit, like a 3.0 or something). If so, why do it in the first place?

Hypothetically, if x med school had a 36 mcat avg and the dean specifically told you retaking would help (and if this school was your smp's host med school and you were applying same cycle as smp), then I would understand your desire to do so. I just don't buy the I have to retake the 36 because 3.3=embarrassing.
 
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