Conviction Question on Secondaries?

[Michela]

I was wondering if anyone could help me. I was convicted of an INFRACTION minor in possession of alcohol 4 1/2 years ago, and have almost forgotten about it since. After looking at the secondary applications it seems that there are 3 common questions asked by most schools. And each school has a slightly differnet way of asking:

1. Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offense?

2. Have you been convicted of any crime?

3. Have you been convicted of any crime other than a minor traffic offense.

I am going to put it down for the last two questions, but what about the first? I talked to a lawyer and he said for the first question he would not put it down, but I don't want to lie! Is anyone in the same position as me or know anyone who has gone through the process with a minor conviction such as this. By the way since it is so minor it cannot even be expunged from my record! Do any of the UC's ask any of these questions on the secondaries?

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[TTSD]

Ask them whether they mean felonies or misdemeanor. If they mean anything, just be honest. They'll understand about alcohol.

 

[samurai_lincoln]

I was wondering if anyone could help me. I was convicted of an INFRACTION minor in possession of alcohol 4 1/2 years ago, and have almost forgotten about it since. After looking at the secondary applications it seems that there are 3 common questions asked by most schools. And each school has a slightly differnet way of asking:

1. Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offense?

2. Have you been convicted of any crime?

3. Have you been convicted of any crime other than a minor traffic offense.

I am going to put it down for the last two questions, but what about the first? I talked to a lawyer and he said for the first question he would not put it down, but I don't want to lie! Is anyone in the same position as me or know anyone who has gone through the process with a minor conviction such as this. By the way since it is so minor it cannot even be expunged from my record! Do any of the UC's ask any of these questions on the secondaries?

"Criminal offense" vs. "Crime" is a mighty fine hair to split. I would argue that there is no difference whatsoever, and have no idea how this attorney you consulted is distinguishing the two phrases. I would also err on the side of caution, being consistent and revealing the conviction in all your apps. Particularly since this is such a common, minor thing and likely will have no effect on your admissions chances. While med schools probably won't check up too thoroughly on these matters, state licensing boards will, and they may also cross-check your med school app to see whether you were truthful then. I know this is common practice for legal licensure boards.

 

[Code Brown]

Don't worry about it too much. They only use it to screen out people that have crimes like rape, robbery and drug trafficking. I know several people that got into med school with DUI's (this is much worse than a little MIP), and even a manslaughter charge (car wreck due to some reckless driving). Speeding tickets, MIP's (minor in possession), etc are all part of growing up so unless you have like 20 of them, you will be fine. Just make sure you can explain it when it comes up. Seeing as you put it in the Primary app, it may not even come up. My buddy with the manslaughter charge said that only about half the schools he interviewed at brought it up, since he mentioned it in his primary. He ended up with 5 acceptances all together. Just my 3 cents worth.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Honestly, why bring it up at all? These schools are not going to check your criminal record, and why raise any eyebrows about some stupid freshman-drinking experience? Its not worth the trouble.

I think that is NOT the way to think about this. If you don't bring it up now, and they find out about it later, its going to be an infinitely greater problem than it is now. If they find out you lied on your app they can investigate and throw you out, even if its year 4. There are some SDNers who have talked about knowing people who this has happened to (although I believe its usually for academic misrepresentations). The OP would be much better off just putting it down now, and adcoms will most likely see it and not care. There are plenty of other applicants who have received the same kind of violation, and I would be hard pressed to think that adcoms don't just take it as part of college (unless you have like 4 or 5, then its a bigger problem, i think).

 

[nuttyp3]

Does anyone know if there is a way to view your criminal record? I was in a similar position freshman year in which some friends and I were handcuffed and thrown in the drunk tank for a night, however we were never photographed nor fingerprinted. Honestly, I am not sure if we were charged/convicted of anything; which is why I decided to not mention it on my primaries - hope I didnt make a big mistake!!

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

You would know if you were charged with anything. You would have either 1)recevied a ticket 2)been required to go to court. So in this case, I would doubt there is any record of you being there, and I don't think you should worry.

SOmebody correct me if I am wrong.

 

[vhawk]

This sort of question has been posted here before, but I guess it kind of depends on what you are going for. In my opinion, the matter of "Will they even check?" is kind of irrelevant. Maybe this is too much to ask of FFA(future fysicians of America), but how about a little integrity? Its ok to make mistakes in life but you needn't be ashamed. If they want to know something, and I think we all understand the spirit of the question, be forthcoming. It wont hurt you, but even if it did, isnt a little ethical purity and a good night's sleep more important than sneaking and praying not to get caught?

 

[samurai_lincoln]

Were not talking about a murder here - the OP would not even have been charged had he/she been a few years older. So while this may be a question of integrity to Vhawk, to me its more of an issue of avoiding a pain-in-the-ass type question on an interview, or some hard-nosed ADCOM looking down on a drinking frosh. I wouldnt lose one bit of sleep if I avoided the question on the application.
In then end, you have to do what YOU feel is right. My opinion is clear.

Dude, did you listen to my advice above?! As one who has been through professional licensure in the legal profession, I assure you that these boards do NOT f**k around. They go over your background with a fine-toothed comb (yes, you must submit to a background check). As part of my application to take the bar exam, I had to submit a copy of my law school application, so they could cross-check what I put on there. It is so completely idiotic to try and cover up such a minor issue. The offense is not a big deal, since it is an isolated event and not a crime of moral turpitude. Covering it up on an app is a big deal, however.

You may also want to read the fine print on your applications. By signing them, I am sure that in most cases you are invoking a clause permitting background checks, as is the case with virtually all job apps.

 

[45408]

Put it down for all three. Odds are that they won't care now, and that they wouldn't care later if they found out then, but you'd hate to find out that a failure to disclose this is going to hurt you later. I can't imagine that underage drinking would really hurt you.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

I never told anyone to cover up info. I simply said that I would not include it. To each his own.

Not answering a question truthfully is covering up. I'm sorry, but there is no difference between a lie of omission or commission. Also, you say if he was a few years older he would not have been charged. Well of course not, because it was a citation for MINOR in possession. A few years older and he would not have been cahrged because he would no longer have been a minor, and hence there would have been no wrongdoing.

 

[Indebt4Life]

If you guys did some ******* move back in the day and nothing really came of it. I would suggest that you guys go ahead and expunge your file which will basically erase your record. Pick up a form at the court house, a copy of the final verdict, get fingerprints, $75 money order, notarized, and get a state of attorney to fill out a portion (this part separates a seal and expunge). It is worth it in the future. You want a clean slate. If you have more than just one offense or something more serious, than you are not eligible to expunge but can opt to seal your files instead of expunging.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Silence, when asked a question to which there is an answer, is a cover up.

I have to question the integrity of doctors and what they would cover up once they are liecensed if they are willing to cover up something in a med school app. Where do you draw the line? What one condones as acceptable for application purposes is a precursor to the kinds of things he'll push under the carpet when he makeas a little mistake, and then a bigger one....

 

[elephunt]

If you guys did some ******* move back in the day and nothing really came of it. I would suggest that you guys go ahead and expunge your file which will basically erase your record. Pick up a form at the court house, a copy of the final verdict, get fingerprints, $75 money order, notarized, and get a state of attorney to fill out a portion (this part separates a seal and expunge). It is worth it in the future. You want a clean slate. If you have more than just one offense or something more serious, than you are not eligible to expunge but can opt to seal your files instead of expunging.

I don't know if every state has the same policy, but I know at least one person who was able to do what Indebt describes above (I live in Indiana.) I think she had to wait a year after her court date, then she got a lawyer to petition to have her record expunged. I'm sorry I don't know all the details--I only heard about it second hand and didn't want to ask too many questions. But anyway, she's in med school now. So it might be worth looking into.

 

[txguy]

Well, we are filling in these apps to the "best of our ability", so forgetting one minor infractiong that happened such a long time ago is totally understandable. Even if they did somehow find out, they would probably forgive you for forgetting about it, because the infraction was an isolated incident and insignificant.

-tx

 

[Bones2008]

Wow, everyone's making a big deal out of this. To the OP: It was 5 years ago that you were convicted of drunking underage. You just got caught for what everyone, including probably the vast majority of adcom members, used to do also. Just list the stupid thing and no one will even ask you about it. This can only hurt you if you omit it. Let's be honest here. Do we really think an adcom member will think, "This son of a b!tch drank a beer when he was 19. No way in f*ck I'm gonna let him become a doctor"? I vote nay. However, I think "This son of a b!tch lied about something so insignificant as an underage drinking charge half a decade ago. What would he do with something much more important? No way in f*ck I'm gonna let him become a doctor" is much more likely. Don't be dumb. Just put it down and get on with your life. No one cares.

 

[Fenotypic]

Misdeamenors = Okay
Felonies = Not okay

MIP is a misdemeanor, just like J-walking --- so i wouldn't put it down.

 

[liverotcod]

Don't worry about it too much. They only use it to screen out people that have crimes like rape, robbery and drug trafficking. I know several people that got into med school with DUI's (this is much worse than a little MIP), and even a manslaughter charge (car wreck due to some reckless driving). Speeding tickets, MIP's (minor in possession), etc are all part of growing up so unless you have like 20 of them, you will be fine. Just make sure you can explain it when it comes up. Seeing as you put it in the Primary app, it may not even come up. My buddy with the manslaughter charge said that only about half the schools he interviewed at brought it up, since he mentioned it in his primary. He ended up with 5 acceptances all together. Just my 3 cents worth.

Depends on the state. In Wisconsin (at least back when I got one), the first DUI is a civil (traffic) offense, 2nd a misdemeanor, etc.

 

[vhawk]

Bones,

Thats exactly what I was saying. Everyone in the world tells white lies, but I think its gotta be sensible to minimize them. Thus, take the high road. However, lying in any capacity is a slippery slope, and although it is important for doctors to use their own discretion, its also generally best to stay as far up on the slope as is possible. What would the infraction have to be to be enough for it to matter to adcoms? Dont make that decision, let them.

 

[adamj61]

Honestly, why bring it up at all? These schools are not going to check your criminal record, and why raise any eyebrows about some stupid freshman-drinking experience? Its not worth the trouble.

I agree, but people on here are tightly aligned with the religous right.

 

[liverotcod]

My $.02: I think the question is pretty clear, and deserves an honest, unevasive response. You need to report instances where you were convicted (or plead guilty or no contest) to a criminal offense. This would include both misdemeanors and felonies. Not civil offenses (like traffic laws) or forfeitures. Whether or not it was expunged, again in my opinion.

You can look up in your state's code (do a google or findlaw) to see if the conviction in question was a criminal or civil offense. I'm betting lots of underage drinking stuff is civil and wouldn't apply.

 

[Code Brown]

To sum it up:

Car accidents(even when people are hurt/killed), DUIs, MIPs --- are all errors in judgement (accidents) and are not bad (correct me if I am wrong, but these usually fall under the non-violent offense category -- whoever took the bar exam, isn't this right?).

Rape, Robbery, Theft, Assault --- are all usually intentional and are bad (these usually fall under the violent offense category).

If you fall into the first category, you should be fine, so report it. Is it worth getting kicked out over? They do run a background check on you (this is a fact) and any discrepancies will be questioned. And yes, people have been kicked out before (not an urban legend). What's the worst that can happen? You get rejected from 4 or 5 schools that are anal about the fact that you had a charge of some sorts that was an accident or based on growing up. If you are worried, apply to a few more schools. At least you won't be worrying about them finding out for the next 5 years.

 

[Indebt4Life]

Silence, when asked a question to which there is an answer, is a cover up.

I have to question the integrity of doctors and what they would cover up once they are liecensed if they are willing to cover up something in a med school app. Where do you draw the line? What one condones as acceptable for application purposes is a precursor to the kinds of things he'll push under the carpet when he makeas a little mistake, and then a bigger one....

Ha Ha Don't be so naive. Look around you and you will see worse things taking place.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

oh yea i know it goes on all the time..just trying to make a point

 

[TripleDegree]

Silence, when asked a question to which there is an answer, is a cover up.

I have to question the integrity of doctors and what they would cover up once they are liecensed if they are willing to cover up something in a med school app. Where do you draw the line? What one condones as acceptable for application purposes is a precursor to the kinds of things he'll push under the carpet when he makeas a little mistake, and then a bigger one....

Stop this self-righteous drivel - I feel nauseous

 

[neurodoc]

If you've had any brush with the law, either arrest or conviction, declare it truthfully. As far as the medical school application route goes, I can tell you that Ap Coms generally won't check you in the "criminal" databases, unless you answer in the affirmative. When you apply for State Licensure, however, I can tell you that they will run your name and fingerprints through the databases (FBI and Interpol). They WILL discover if you have any arrest or convicyion background. And if you fail to mention this stuff on your application, they will call you to account.

 

[45408]

Well, we are filling in these apps to the "best of our ability", so forgetting one minor infractiong that happened such a long time ago is totally understandable. Even if they did somehow find out, they would probably forgive you for forgetting about it, because the infraction was an isolated incident and insignificant.

-tx

Your integrity sucks. He remembers, so he should put it down!

 

[45408]

Stop this self-righteous drivel - I feel nauseous

*nauseated

You can't feel nauseous.

 

[Davejj40]

how about misdemenor possesion of marijuana...mind you this is for a piece of bud stuck to my shirt. Plus this was almost 4 years ago but i wasnt a minor. Could i get this expunged. I live in SF ca but it happened in a suburb neighboring the city.

 

[liverotcod]

*nauseated

You can't feel nauseous.

Wouldn't "I feel nauseous" mean that he causes others to feel nausea? So maybe it's accurate after all.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

really i'm sorry. others said the same thing and others questioned people's integrity when they became MDs for taking adderal or ritalin to study. sorry, i was just offering my sincere opinion, not trying to judge anyone. *gasp*

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Do you have to report car accidents on your application, even if someone got severely hurt or died, if it wasn't your fault?

 

[liverotcod]

Do you have to report car accidents on your application, even if someone got severely hurt or died, if it wasn't your fault?

The question from the OP asks if you have been convicted of a crime. How would it apply to a car accident, if you weren't at fault?

The same goes for being arrested. No need to report, unless it led to a conviction. Of course, "conviction" includes pleading guilty or no contest.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

i know it was dumb..maybe it's just paranoia...sorry

 

[liverotcod]

i know it was dumb..maybe it's just paranoia...sorry

I know how you feel. I have already completely scrapped two versions of my PS that had been polished and ready to go. The submit button features prominently in my nightmares.

 

[Heliums]

I would disclose the conviction. These days it is more likely than not they will do a complete background check. (the war on terrorism and all) You can be kicked out of med school for lying about criminal convictions. You can also go to your local police station pay about 5-10 dollars to run your record. Then you will know what is on it and what other people can find out about you. I could be wrong but I did not think an adult criminal record could be expunged. I do know initial charges can be reduced or dismissed but it is still on your record.