Cool CSPAN Special on "Da Future!"

[BubbleheadVet]

Just wondering if you guys checked out the CSPAN special on the future of mankind, and obviously the Earth...There was a particularly portion of the show that had a veterinarian who was working on developing meat production from stem cells! Cool right...just wondering if anyone else has ever heard anything about this before...Definitely would help save the world and the slaughter of millions upon millions of animals every year...

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[lostbunny]

...Definitely would help save the world and the slaughter of millions upon millions of animals every year...

eww steak made from stem cells... i can't even fathom the thought. Cool way to save the world... but unemployment for many many many people...and what would we do with all the cows that then will roam the earth? (Hopefully they won't find guns...)

 

[August West]

Just wondering if you guys checked out the CSPAN special on the future of mankind, and obviously the Earth...There was a particularly portion of the show that had a veterinarian who was working on developing meat production from stem cells! Cool right...just wondering if anyone else has ever heard anything about this before...Definitely would help save the world and the slaughter of millions upon millions of animals every year...

Food animals would not just be spared the slaughterhouse, they would cease to exist. And the technology is very real. People might already be eating cloned meat. And if not already, it is surely just a matter of time. But will developing countries be able to afford the technology? And will pigs be missed?!!!

 

[deleted387118]

And really not the end of slaughter... you'll still have dairy cows, sheep, etc. Not to mention all of the bi-products that we use in everyday objects.

And the end of slaughter = virtual extinction of many food animals. Very few people can afford these animals as pets. Not to mention the people that would keep them as pets aren't always very savvy about how to handle large animals.

Just my opinion.....

EDIT: August West, you beat me to it!

 

[BubbleheadVet]

I seriously doubt that it would lead to the extinction of any food animals...just my opinion but I'm pretty sure the rich would still want'em and rural areas still have to feed themselves if they can't afford cloned meat, and they still have to make a living(i.e. feeding the rich their real beef)...by the way government subsidized agricultural expansion in Brazil is the major contributor to deforestation of the Amazon (beef and soy bean)...Honestly though it doesn't matter our current system of supplying meat to the masses just isn't sustainable...It's just one of the things that is going to have to happen...and its better that we start doing it now than when we've already gone beyond the point where we are like"oh yeah I guess we coulda done that to help"....every little bit man...you can have the loss of 10 or 20 species of food animals, or you can have the extinction of over half the world's animal species...obviously I understand this is only one facet of a very large and real problem but it is a very feasible solution...just sayin...at least that's what most computer models are predicting...as far as those who'll be put out of work...do we just continue being destructive for the sake of "employment"?

 

[August West]

eww steak made from stem cells... i can't even fathom the thought. Cool way to save the world... but unemployment for many many many people...and what would we do with all the cows that then will roam the earth? (Hopefully they won't find guns...)

Steak that an individual might currently consume comes from stem cells, one way or the other. See myosatellite cells.

 

[August West]

I seriously doubt that it would lead to the extinction of any food animals...just my opinion but I'm pretty sure the rich would still want'em and rural areas still have to feed themselves if they can't afford cloned meat, and they still have to make a living(i.e. feeding the rich their real beef)...by the way government subsidized agricultural expansion in Brazil is the major contributor to deforestation of the Amazon (beef and soy bean)...Honestly though it doesn't matter our current system of supplying meat to the masses just isn't sustainable...It's just one of the things that is going to have to happen...and its better that we start doing it now than when we've already gone beyond the point where we are like"oh yeah I guess we coulda done that to help"....every little bit man...you can have the loss of 10 or 20 species of food animals, or you can have the extinction of over half the world's animal species...obviously I understand this is only one facet of a very large and real problem but it is a very feasible solution...just sayin...at least that's what most computer models are predicting...as far as those who'll be put out of work...do we just continue being destructive for the sake of "employment"?

a) cloned beef is still real beef. Just like a cloned sheep is a real sheep.
b) the planet is not arable enough to feed everyone. We currently need meat just to keep those starving at 1/3 of the planet. A 100% vegetarian global population is not viable, as far as I can understand.

 

[lostbunny]

Steak that an individual might currently consume comes from stem cells, one way or the other. See myosatellite cells.

Yes, I know steak and meat in general comes from stem cells ultimately- but just going from one direct statement (woo hoo! meat from stem cells!) to another (steak..?!) is icky. --> syringe full of stem cells + petrie dish = dinner

icky.

I still stand by my hope that the cows [dont'] have guns.

 

[lostbunny]

...as far as those who'll be put out of work...do we just continue being destructive for the sake of "employment"?

I wasn't implying that really- but cutting out an entire industry would have many repercussions on society, and make the "poor" even more "poor". And you make animal slaughter sound so barbaric and horrible. I will admit I haven't visited a slaughter house, nor have I been slaughtered myself, but coming from a vet who worked at an abattoir, she said the cows weren't overly stressed, and to them, it just seemed like another day in the yards. They didn't suffer, basically. But thats just one abattoir in particular.

Okay, off to make ribs for dinner.

 

[BubbleheadVet]

No I'm not talking about cloned sheep or cow...unless you mean that's where they are taking the myosattelite cells for creating the meat...the same basic process they use to make cloned organs, well this veterinarian is using those techniques for (as bunny was saying) petri dish+stem cells=meat...of course they use some crazy bioreactors and matrixing techniques to get the consistency correct, and what luck he has had has only been with sheets of muscle (so you can't get a chicken breast to look like a chicken breast...at least not right now)...no growing of animals...just meat pure and simple...

Here's one link I found on the guy working on this stuff...

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101208/full/468752a.html

 

[August West]

I'd love to go visit a lab and see folks (or more likely machines) manually exercising genetically-engineered cow muscles. Fascinating topic...

 

[BubbleheadVet]

I would love to see it in action also...one of the problems that they've run into though is a cost-efficient means of stimulating muscle activity...shocking with electricity is just too expensive so there's alot of research going into the process of simply stimulating "lab muscle"...one cool method I think they talk about in the article I posted was the use of a chitin matrix that is responsive(contracts and relaxs) to temperature changes to serve as the stimulus for muscle building...cool stuff!

 

[August West]

I would love to see it in action also...one of the problems that they've run into though is a cost-efficient means of stimulating muscle activity...shocking with electricity is just too expensive so there's alot of research going into the process of simply stimulating "lab muscle"...one cool method I think they talk about in the article I posted was the use of a chitin matrix that is responsive(contracts and relaxs) to temperature changes to serve as the stimulus for muscle building...cool stuff!

Sweet!! I love when my burgers and hot dogs swell as they roast.

 

[lostbunny]

But how would you get a nice bloody juicy steak? Isn't the "blood" on a bloody steak just myoglobin? That wouldn't be included in a petrie dish dinner...the blood part?

Or is it more like they make meat, put it in a can and ship it off?

I think I'm just hungry for a steak.

 

[drwildlife]

b) the planet is not arable enough to feed everyone. We currently need meat just to keep those starving at 1/3 of the planet. A 100% vegetarian global population is not viable, as far as I can understand.

100% vegetarian diet for the entire world would be almost (if not) as bad as a 100% meat diet (disregarding the nutrition levels and solely speaking of environmental aspects). I don't recall the approx. year range but, it is estimated around 2050 (I believe) our current food systems will begin to crash. High populations and just not enough land to feed our "hunger" have led to this. Doesn't mean it has to crash. It's more of a tipping point. We're at the point where we could make a difference but, will we?

Just have to find the proper way for all of us to eat sustainably or engineer "futuristic" foods as well as control population levels. Is this possible? Yes. Will it happen? I really hope so. The whole world needs to wake up first.

Btw, huge environmentalist here if you can't tell... I've also been Christmas shopping all day and just used my last remaining energy to write this rant...

 

[August West]

I don't know how one could desire a career in animal science and NOT be an environmentalist. If we are interested in protecting and maintaining the welfare of animals, an obvious place to start is with the health and livelihood of their habitats.

Population control programs would be a good start. Look out Octomamas, we're comin' for you...

 

[Trematode]

What about the fact that it takes 4.8 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef, yadda yadda yadda? According to those stats, getting rid of meat would feed more people!

Also, production animals would not be extinct. What about all of those people who breed and show them?

 

[August West]

What about the fact that it takes 4.8 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef, yadda yadda yadda? According to those stats, getting rid of meat would feed more people!

Also, production animals would not be extinct. What about all of those people who breed and show them?

Subsistence agriculture pays a terrible toll on our environment. It is the most destructive action that we have committed against the environment and requires the complete destruction of entire ecosystems. Hunting/gathering is much more sustainable. Not to mention the number of rabbits, mice, pheasants, snakes and other animals that are killed in the process. Animals that many other countries dine on for their energy source. An activity that has destroyed 98% of most animals’ habitat can hardly be claimed to be animal-friendly.

Food animals need not eat grain. That is just one of the major shortcomings of factory farming. These creatures were designed to forage and browse and eat what we humans could not. What most people can't or won't understand is that vegetarians can only exist because everyone else eats meat. When you come to converting the whole planet to vegetarianism a few geography lessons are in order.

At the end of the day, over-population is our biggest problem. One big drain on the environment caused by a growing energy deficit.

 

[drwildlife]

What about the fact that it takes 4.8 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef, yadda yadda yadda? According to those stats, getting rid of meat would feed more people!

Like August is saying, it would still lead to a major problem . People can't live purely off grain. You still have to have some sort of protein like tofu or soy. So with those two, you would be importing more and more. Importing leads to greater environmental issues as well as the deforestation and habitat loss that goes to creating areas for all these new crops.

This is also coming from a former vegetarian. Instead of being purely vegetarian now, I limit my meat consumption. Which, along with population control, is one of the things which can be done to help the planet. Instead of having the crazy American meat diet, enjoy the other food groups too. Helps yourself and the Earth!

And, this is probably going to sound incredibly harsh and please don't take it that way, but I don't think we'll ever see the end of world hunger. Think about it - it's one of the last "natural selectors"/population controls we have on the human population. If we take away that, what would happen to the population and the remaining habitats we have? Something to think about I guess.

 

[BubbleheadVet]

I think I've always been stand-offish from the "hippie" movement...Unfortunate circumstance of growing up in the south and everyone attaching anything environmental to liberal social policies...but since I've gotten older I've rid myself of those "chains", and now I'm a pretty strong advocate and practioner of environmentalism...I'm not sure if you've guys every read any books or essays specifically on the topic at hand but here's a quick Wiki link for some of the literature that is out there....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth

 

[August West]

I think I've always been stand-offish from the "hippie" movement...Unfortunate circumstance of growing up in the south and everyone attaching anything environmental to liberal social policies...but since I've gotten older I've rid myself of those "chains", and now I'm a pretty strong advocate and practioner of environmentalism...I'm not sure if you've guys every read any books or essays specifically on the topic at hand but here's a quick Wiki link for some of the literature that is out there....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth

Here is an updated account of such a narrative worth checking out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choose_to_Fail_or_Succeed

I read it for my Environmental Science class last semester. Not the exciting read. But then again, saving the planet is rarely compelling content.

 

[Armymutt25A]

What about the fact that it takes 4.8 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef, yadda yadda yadda? According to those stats, getting rid of meat would feed more people!

Also, production animals would not be extinct. What about all of those people who breed and show them?

I don't know of a single beef herd that is fed purely on grain. Even if it takes 4.8 lbs of grain to create 1lb of beef, that's hardly how it's done. How much plutonium does it take to power the average household? Equally pointless fact. Most herds are grazed - grass lands. Sometimes they are turned loose on harvested corn fields to forage. Most of their feed is stuff you wouldn't eat. I like saurkraut, but I'm not going to eat silage. Out in NC, they feed cottonseed. Took me a minute to figure out what it was when I first saw it - I'm from Indiana. The hunter-gather thing might be sustainable, but it's hardly a viable option. If it was, we wouldn't have done the whole domestication of animals thing and there'd be no veterinary medicine. As much as no one wants to address it, the only viable outcome is reduction in population. Too many countries have grown their populations beyond the point where they can feed themselves. I wonder if anyone ever did a study to find out what the world population would be if it weren't for the bubonic plague and the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918.

 

[August West]

I don't know of a single beef herd that is fed purely on grain. Even if it takes 4.8 lbs of grain to create 1lb of beef, that's hardly how it's done. How much plutonium does it take to power the average household? Equally pointless fact. Most herds are grazed - grass lands. Sometimes they are turned loose on harvested corn fields to forage. Most of their feed is stuff you wouldn't eat. I like saurkraut, but I'm not going to eat silage. Out in NC, they feed cottonseed. Took me a minute to figure out what it was when I first saw it - I'm from Indiana. The hunter-gather thing might be sustainable, but it's hardly a viable option. If it was, we wouldn't have done the whole domestication of animals thing and there'd be no veterinary medicine. As much as no one wants to address it, the only viable outcome is reduction in population. Too many countries have grown their populations beyond the point where they can feed themselves. I wonder if anyone ever did a study to find out what the world population would be if it weren't for the bubonic plague and the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918.

Americans are the worst culprits. Our country's environmental impact is worse than any other by quite a bit. I believe that it would take 13 India's to equal the damage the US does to the earth. We consume and waste more than anyone else, despite having fewer people. I am all for an American population growth program. Otherwise, we will slowly continue to depreciate our quality of life and stomp through the natural world with an enormous environmental footprint.

 

[lostbunny]

I am all for an American population growth program.

wtf?... does this have anything at all to do with drinking Kool-Aid?

 

[August West]

wtf?... does this have anything at all to do with drinking Kool-Aid?

There will be a population growth program implemented at some point. It is inevitable. It's just a matter whether we institute it or nature does it for us. One choice is much more pleasant than the other. Not sure what you are implying here...?

 

[jradjsb]

Ok so maybe I am just a little lost here, but if we clone an animal for meat isn't it still an animal? Doesn't it still need to grow and mature and eventually be slaughtered? I quess what I am trying to ask is, what's the difference in cloned meat and farm bred meat? There is still going to be a need for cattle farms and slaughters. What are the benefits of cloned meat?

 

[nyanko]

There will be a population growth program implemented at some point. It is inevitable. It's just a matter whether we institute it or nature does it for us. One choice is much more pleasant than the other. Not sure what you are implying here...?

In this country? haha you have got to be kidding me - people would flip their **** if anyone tried to implement a "population growth program" which I assume would have something to do with regulation of individual choice in reproduction in some way.

Unless I'm completely misreading your post...

(fwiw, I'm doing my part by not reproducing)

 

[lostbunny]

There will be a population growth program implemented at some point. It is inevitable. It's just a matter whether we institute it or nature does it for us. One choice is much more pleasant than the other. Not sure what you are implying here...?

JONESTOWN!

(fwiw, I'm doing my part by not reproducing)

 

[August West]

Ok so maybe I am just a little lost here, but if we clone an animal for meat isn't it still an animal? Doesn't it still need to grow and mature and eventually be slaughtered? I quess what I am trying to ask is, what's the difference in cloned meat and farm bred meat? There is still going to be a need for cattle farms and slaughters. What are the benefits of cloned meat?

The discussion and show was about using animal cells to create an artificial form of meat without the need for the rearing and slaughtering of livestock. Imagine strips of muscle tissue being generated "in vitro" from stem cells in a lab instead of the cloning of entire food animals.

 

[August West]

In this country? haha you have got to be kidding me - people would flip their **** if anyone tried to implement a "population growth program" which I assume would have something to do with regulation of individual choice in reproduction in some way.

Unless I'm completely misreading your post...

(fwiw, I'm doing my part by not reproducing)

Lots of people would surely freak out at the mention of instituting such a program. Just look at lostbunny's hysterics. However, the facts are indisputable. Our current population growth curve is not sustainable. We will hit the carrying capacity soon enough and nature will implement it's own population growth program. And yes, population growth programs calculate the acceptable total fertility rate for the country to maintain either a zero growth rate or a rate determined to keep the country limited resources sustainable. China has such a program and suggests, but does not legally enforce, such a fertility rate. Anyone that exceeds this rate is chastised by their peers in the community. I don't know what we need here in America, nor what would be acceptable for US citizens. Maybe we can place a higher tax burden on those that choose to put such a great strain on our resources by having more than 5 children or something like that. All I know is eventually something will have to be done. Any Intro Environmental Science class will teach us such things.

 

[August West]

JONESTOWN!

You can choose to be ignorant of the facts, but that in and of itself will not change them.

 

[lostbunny]

.

 

[nyanko]

Our current population growth curve is not sustainable. We will hit the carrying capacity soon enough and nature will implement it's own population growth program. And yes, population growth programs calculate the acceptable total fertility rate for the country to maintain either a zero growth rate or a rate determined to keep the country limited resources sustainable. China has such a program and suggests, but does not legally enforce, such a fertility rate. Anyone that exceeds this rate is chastised by their peers in the community. I don't know what we need here in America, nor what would be acceptable for US citizens. Maybe we can place a higher tax burden on those that choose to put such a great strain on our resources by having more than 5 children or something like that. All I know is eventually something will have to be done. Any Intro Environmental Science class will teach us such things.

It isn't that I don't agree wholeheartedly with your points. I'm just perhaps too cynical.

Honestly, medical professionals currently do all that they can to ensure that nature's population growth programs are thwarted. Hell there are plenty of people in this country who would rather see every single viable fertilized egg grow into a person than allow other people the freedom to downregulate their own reproductive habits (pro-lifers) so there is no way that they'd be okay with the government trying to do so.

 

[Zusie]

Have you ever read Collapse by Jared Diamond?

I don't think I ever read Part I of the book, but Part II was extremely interesting too. It explains what was the tipping point for the collapse of several fairly sophisticated societies. There were a lot of factors, a lot of being political/wars. But in some cases it seems like they had weakened themselves so much it was almost inevitable.

It makes me think of the desert places that pipe in their water from other places (think California Water Wars). And when I've flown into Las Vegas, it's always given me the willies how isolated it is there in the middle of the desert. If there wasn't gasoline and ways to bring in food, what would they do?

 

[variegata]

Yes, I know steak and meat in general comes from stem cells ultimately- but just going from one direct statement (woo hoo! meat from stem cells!) to another (steak..?!) is icky. --> syringe full of stem cells + petrie dish = dinner

icky.

I still stand by my hope that the cows [dont'] have guns.

It is entirely possible that I am the only one here that got the cows with guns reference. But it's Cow Tse Tung that we should be worrying about - without him, who cares if the cows have guns?

 

[deleted387118]

What about the fact that it takes 4.8 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef, yadda yadda yadda? According to those stats, getting rid of meat would feed more people!

Also, production animals would not be extinct. What about all of those people who breed and show them?

A little late on this but the people who breed and show them do not do it because the animals are pets. Showing increases your prices. Increased prices means increased profit. The people that buy these animals either A) breed them or B) eat them. If you keep breeding and breeding without eating there are so many animals that your prices go back down.


I own a small registered cow/calf. We travel a minimum of 5 hours to show at a single show every year. Showing in a small breed is the only reason why I, at 23 years old with no family name to back me up, can sell across states and sell all of my calves every year. If I didn't show, I wouldn't be in business. If people didn't eat the cattle I raise and like them I wouldn't be in business. I do not know a single person in my breed or any other for that fact that would be in business if we did not eat cattle. They aren't like dogs that sleep at your feet every night and you show them because its something fun to do with your pet. They are large, they are expensive, they can be dangerous and the work you do to maintain them is back-breaking with long hours in all types of weather.

 

[August West]

It isn't that I don't agree wholeheartedly with your points. I'm just perhaps too cynical.

Honestly, medical professionals currently do all that they can to ensure that nature's population growth programs are thwarted. Hell there are plenty of people in this country who would rather see every single viable fertilized egg grow into a person than allow other people the freedom to downregulate their own reproductive habits (pro-lifers) so there is no way that they'd be okay with the government trying to do so.

Well said. I am not proposing any type of legislative program to curtail population growth in America. I wish I new the answer and agree that any such initiative would be met with intense opposition. At the same time, my understanding is that our current growth curve is not sustainable for much longer and will eventually need to be countered, either by us or by natural limiting factors and events.

Education about these issues are the only initiative that I am 100% confident about supporting at this time. People need to understand what we are facing before we can even begin to address what can be done. And yet, presidential hopeful and lovable joker, Rick Santorum, is out telling people that states need to be able to ban all forms of birth contraceptives. Always frustrating to wait for the rest of a species to evolve.