Covid sucks

[Cornfed101]

I’m 4 days in and the barrage of zoom everything just sucks. I just finished watching a required 3 hour anatomy dissection on zoom and I wanna blow my brains out. Can’t I sign a paper that says I’m willing to get covid if you just let me take the risk and go to campus? Just wanted to come here and vent to my people... hopefully you guys are handling this better.

sincerely,
a kinesthetic learner who hates online only medical school

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[Kardio]

Feel you bro

 

[libertyyne]

Make the best out of the situation. Some of us would have loved not going into anatomy lab since anatomy was learned easily elsewhere. After the first exam you might be changing your pov as well.

 

[Isoval]

We have online rotations until at least August 28th. Translation: easy, bs cases that you can do in a few hours for the entire two or four weeks of the rotation.

Pro: Extended summer?
Con: No f****** rotations...

 

[ExplodingUlcers]

Put the dissection on mute and hammer away at that space bar.

 

[Alkaidius]

Make the best out of the situation. Some of us would have loved not going into anatomy lab since anatomy was learned easily elsewhere. After the first exam you might be changing your pov as well.

So much this. Being forced to work on my cadaver during GI block when mine had a colectomy AND a partial small bowel resection was a nightmare. Also guess who had to clean out the poop because his lab partners were on the verge of vomiting lol.

 

[Kr#36]

We have online rotations until at least August 28th. Translation: easy, bs cases that you can do in a few hours for the entire two or four weeks of the rotation.

Pro: Extended summer?
Con: No f****** rotations...

All of this. Honestly the online stuff will probably extend past august as well because our state is a war zone right now. OP, give it a month or so and you'll be happy your pre-clinical stuff is online.

You're complaining even though its worse for 3rd years who should be on rotations, and 3rd years are complaining even though its worse for 4th years who wish they were on auditions trying to match. Its a big suck circle but honestly you probably got the least suck of all the suck.

 

[Isoval]

All of this. Honestly the online stuff will probably extend past august as well because our state is a war zone right now. OP, give it a month or so and you'll be happy your pre-clinical stuff is online.

You're complaining even though its worse for 3rd years who should be on rotations, and 3rd years are complaining even though its worse for 4th years who wish they were on auditions trying to match. Its a big suck circle but honestly you probably got the least suck of all the suck.

I heard it might be until even September

 

[ciestar]

Make the best out of the situation. Some of us would have loved not going into anatomy lab since anatomy was learned easily elsewhere. After the first exam you might be changing your pov as well.

Formaldehyde triggers my asthma. Anatomy was so bad for me lol

 

[stickgirl390]

Dissecting is a right of passage into medical school. Even though I agree that doing dissections ends up becoming a time sink, being able to do a few dissections yourself is an irreplaceable experience.

 

[slowthai]

Put the dissection on mute and hammer away at that space bar.

This is EXACTLY what I was saying in my mind, "Just minimize it and hammer anki" LOL

 

[slowthai]

Dissecting is a right of passage into medical school. Even though I agree that doing dissections ends up becoming a time sink, being able to do a few dissections yourself is an irreplaceable experience.

There are some rites of passage that are just not worth it, and this is one of them. I would have given my left temporal lobe to skip all the worthless dissections I attended in M1. Thank God it's all over.

 

[libertyyne]

Dissecting is a right of passage into medical school. Even though I agree that doing dissections ends up becoming a time sink, being able to do a few dissections yourself is an irreplaceable experience.

A good chunk of schools have actually moved away from dissection to prosections. So they definitely found it replaceable. The further you go in training the more your realize how pointless anatomy lab was.

 

[futurebostondoc227]

I’m of two minds about this. Yes it was a huge time sink but whenever I try to remember a relationship or structure I think of my donor/cadaver. Not sure Rohen’s atlas or virtual dissection would have stuck as well.

that said, OP, this does give you time to really drill some of your other material. take the few hours of time you saved from lab and use it to study, sleep enough, take a break once in a while, etc.

 

[Cornfed101]

Haha I was looking forward to anatomy lab, but it sounds like I might not be missing out... and yeah I’m glad I’m not an M3

 

[Goro]

I’m 4 days in and the barrage of zoom everything just sucks. I just finished watching a required 3 hour anatomy dissection on zoom and I wanna blow my brains out. Can’t I sign a paper that says I’m willing to get covid if you just let me take the risk and go to campus? Just wanted to come here and vent to my people... hopefully you guys are handling this better.

sincerely,
a kinesthetic learner who hates online only medical school

You too????

 

[Cornfed101]

You too????

yeah I feel bad for my professors. Our first lecture the professor muted everyone without the option for us to unmute and he couldn’t see the chat so we were blowing him up with questions but he just plowed on... maybe embryo wasn’t the best subject to start with haha

 

[Neopolymath]

yeah I feel bad for my professors. Our first lecture the professor muted everyone without the option for us to unmute and he couldn’t see the chat so we were blowing him up with questions but he just plowed on... maybe embryo wasn’t the best subject to start with haha

God, it's like a dream to be in a lecture no one can ask questions in. It's almost like how the first two years should be done by sitting on the couch with your dog in the first place. Wow OP, you are so lucky that they will force you to figure out this is the best way to do M1 and M2 for the majority of people. Most people spend the first couple months doing it wrong until they finally figure it out. Now all of you will learn this faster. Blessing in disguise.

 

[DO2015CA]

Dissecting is a right of passage into medical school. Even though I agree that doing dissections ends up becoming a time sink, being able to do a few dissections yourself is an irreplaceable experience.

lol how’s that? It’s a waste of time. Lol there’s plenty of rights of passage and anatomy lab ain’t one of them.

 

[Burnermed]

We have online rotations until at least August 28th. Translation: easy, bs cases that you can do in a few hours for the entire two or four weeks of the rotation.

Pro: Extended summer?
Con: No f****** rotations...

lmao not much of a con

 

[stickgirl390]

lol how’s that? It’s a waste of time. Lol there’s plenty of rights of passage and anatomy lab ain’t one of them.

The opportunity to experience the human body through dissection is one that very few people have the honor to do. I was very thankful to my body donor for the education he provided me. Not all of us view cadaver lab as an annoying inconvenience.

 

[libertyyne]

The opportunity to experience the human body through dissection is one that very few people have the honor to do. I was very thankful to my body donor for the education he provided me. Not all of us view cadaver lab as an annoying inconvenience.

This is not some sacred ritual where you suddenly become a doctor afterwards. or that is reserved as a right of passage. UG anatomy even provided people to do dissections, and heck tissue harvesting pays 15 dollars an hour to techs so people can sign up for that work. The experience is overrated, not a true simulation of anatomy in living breathing human beings, and is frankly unnecessary as evidenced by some schools moving away from dissections.

 

[Giovanotto]

This is not some sacred ritual where you suddenly become a doctor afterwards. or that is reserved as a right of passage. UG anatomy even provided people to do dissections, and heck tissue harvesting pays 15 dollars an hour to techs so people can sign up for that work. The experience is overrated, not a true simulation of anatomy in living breathing human beings, and is frankly unnecessary as evidenced by some schools moving away from dissections.

Be that as it may, I still got some enjoyment out of anatomy and nowhere else in medical education do you get to poke at a previously living person. Surgeries are so specific and pinpoint these days, it's not the same. I still vividly remember the way the sartorius muscle of my cadaver moved all the way across the thigh. I dont even particularly like anatomy, but I truly believe it's a right of passage and a necessary experience of medical school. It gave me an appreciation for the body.

Or maybe I'm getting nostalgic.

 

[slowthai]

There are a number of things that people say are important/necessary in med school that just aren't. This is one of them. I swear, the same people that say "if you don't identify it on a cadaver, how are you going to be able to identify it on a live person" are the same people spouting the "if you don't attend classes, how are you going to be able to show up for rotations" BS. Miss me.

 

[DPTinthemaking15]

There are a number of things that people say are important/necessary in med school that just aren't. This is one of them. I swear, the same people that say "if you don't identify it on a cadaver, how are you going to be able to identify it on a live person" are the same people spouting the "if you don't attend classes, how are you going to be able to show up for rotations" BS. Miss me.

I wish I could like this 1,000x I literally zone out during dissections and don’t know what I’m doing 99% of the time. Three to four days before our lab practicals is when crunch time begins and I actually learn.

 

[Isoval]

I wish I could like this 1,000x I literally zone out during dissections and don’t know what I’m doing 99% of the time. Three to four days before our lab practicals is when crunch time begins and I actually learn.

Re: the other people talking about lab...

While I agree that gross lab is a “rite of passage”, that does not imply it was necessary for medical education. It’s a genuinely great experience, but...it’s just not that helpful.

 

[stickgirl390]

I want to point out that my original comment said doing “a few dissections” was important. I agree that students dissecting the entire body themselves is unnecessary and not an efficient use of time. It would be nice if students could do 3 or 4 dissections, and then study off predissected cadavers for the rest, or Netters or whatever method they like. There absolutely is value in doing some dissection versus none at all.

 

[DO2015CA]

I want to point out that my original comment said doing “a few dissections” was important. I agree that students dissecting the entire body themselves is unnecessary and not an efficient use of time. It would be nice if students could do 3 or 4 dissections, and then study off predissected cadavers for the rest, or Netters or whatever method they like. There absolutely is value in doing some dissection versus none at all.

what exactly does doing 3-4 dissections offer?

 

[stickgirl390]

what exactly does doing 3-4 dissections offer?

A hands-on opportunity to feel different tissues; experience cutting through skin vs muscle vs fat so your first time experiencing such isnt third year with an attending breathing down your neck; manipulating a human body on a patient you won’t harm; being personally acquainted with death in a controlled environment; gaining the experience of what dissection is like in the event that your career requires it (for many this may be their only exposure to pathology), discovering disease processes for yourself, Etc.

 

[Kr#36]

I had a blast in anatomy lab and after the fact I'm happy to have had that experience. 95% of the anatomy I know 2 years later is from Anki. Both things can be true and I'm not sure where that leaves us on how valuable the dissections really were.

 

[slowthai]

A hands-on opportunity to feel different tissues; experience cutting through skin vs muscle vs fat so your first time experiencing such isnt third year with an attending breathing down your neck; manipulating a human body on a patient you won’t harm; being personally acquainted with death in a controlled environment; gaining the experience of what dissection is like in the event that your career requires it (for many this may be their only exposure to pathology), discovering disease processes for yourself, Etc.

An attending's going to be breathing down my neck regardless, so I'd rather get the full experience

I struggle to see the value in any of this.

 

[Kr#36]

An attending's going to be breathing down my neck regardless, so I'd rather get the full experience

I struggle to see the value in any of this.

Attending: Did you have anatomy lab first year?

Me: Yep.

Attending: Cool then you know the feel of slicing through human flesh, go ahead and get started on this gallbladder while I stand way over here being super chill.

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

A good chunk of schools have actually moved away from dissection to prosections. So they definitely found it replaceable. The further you go in training the more your realize how pointless anatomy lab was.

I suppose it depends on what type of learner you are, but there is a good deal of esoteric anatomy I remember because I have vivid memories of dissection along with the long nights combing through the muscle, fat, tendons, and fascia just to find that one structure. Honestly, I felt our anatomy experience was awesome. Perhaps it's just me, but I really didn't have to review anatomy all that much for boards because of those memories. This doesn't mean at all that anatomy as its taught isn't replaceable, but I honestly found it a rewarding experience even though it could be quite frustrating at times. But that's true of many experiences in medical school so far.

 

[DO2015CA]

A hands-on opportunity to feel different tissues; experience cutting through skin vs muscle vs fat so your first time experiencing such isnt third year with an attending breathing down your neck; manipulating a human body on a patient you won’t harm; being personally acquainted with death in a controlled environment; gaining the experience of what dissection is like in the event that your career requires it (for many this may be their only exposure to pathology), discovering disease processes for yourself, Etc.

the tissue does not feel the same. No way did anatomy dissection prepare me for my surgery rotations. I’ve only talked about anatomy lab with one of my surgeon friends and he said that he had a ton of fun in anatomy lab but it did not help him with surgery. As for the closer to death, I can understand that But nothing will replace nor prepare you for your actual first patient death.

 

[libertyyne]

I suppose it depends on what type of learner you are, but there is a good deal of esoteric anatomy I remember because I have vivid memories of dissection along with the long nights combing through the muscle, fat, tendons, and fascia just to find that one structure. Honestly, I felt our anatomy experience was awesome. Perhaps it's just me, but I really didn't have to review anatomy all that much for boards because of those memories. This doesn't mean at all that anatomy as its taught isn't replaceable, but I honestly found it a rewarding experience even though it could be quite frustrating at times. But that's true of many experiences in medical school so far.

Learning styles is a non evidence based idea that keeps on getting promulgated as true. go take a look at the literature. I sure as hell had vivid memories of dissection, but thats the thing when you actually are a few years out from it, those memories fade. Perhaps when you go through a surgical clerkship you will realize that you need to constantly refresh and those memories are not completely sufficient or adequate nor were they efficient in providing the anatomical background necessary.
Im glad you found enjoyment in anatomy lab, doesnt change the fact that it is not necessary and that there are plenty of other rewarding experiences

 

[MLNS]

A hands-on opportunity to feel different tissues; experience cutting through skin vs muscle vs fat so your first time experiencing such isnt third year with an attending breathing down your neck; manipulating a human body on a patient you won’t harm; being personally acquainted with death in a controlled environment; gaining the experience of what dissection is like in the event that your career requires it (for many this may be their only exposure to pathology), discovering disease processes for yourself, Etc.

A cadaver and a real human feel nothing alike. Not even remotely. Anatomy lab was the biggest waste of time in med school. It provided absolutely 0 benefit, being continued only to make med students spend countless hours in lab cause #thatsjusthowitsdone

As a relevant aside: I love anatomy and am most likely going into an anatomy heavy subfield

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

Learning styles is a non evidence based idea that keeps on getting promulgated as true. go take a look at the literature. I sure as hell had vivid memories of dissection, but thats the thing when you actually are a few years out from it, those memories fade. Perhaps when you go through a surgical clerkship you will realize that you need to constantly refresh and those memories are not completely sufficient or adequate nor were they efficient in providing the anatomical background necessary.
Im glad you found enjoyment in anatomy lab, doesnt change the fact that it is not necessary and that there are plenty of other rewarding experiences

I never said those memories would always be there, and I also never quite said that I thought my "learning style" was evidence-based. I also didn't rule out other experiences as being rewarding, and I would be the first to say that clinical experience will likely by far be the most important of our schooling so far (primarily because I am only 1 month into 3rd year). My N = 1, and I know better than to suggest that such experience is the absolute best justification for any claim I make. This was merely an experience I had, and I know how I studied pre-clinically and how it seemed to work for the most part. Perhaps I should have chosen better terms, because for the most part I agree with your assessment.

 

[Osteosaur]

Dissecting is a right of passage into medical school. Even though I agree that doing dissections ends up becoming a time sink, being able to do a few dissections yourself is an irreplaceable experience.

While I'm just another M3...

1) I'm in surgery rotation now. Anatomy LECTURES have helped me know and understand things. I read netter and watched a video the night before. Dissection did not help me point out stuff during laparotomies at all.

2) Do rites of passage really have any place in medicine? Everything we're taught is about improving efficacy, saving time, and saving money.

You need to look at data and outcomes. Is this improving medical education in some tangible way outside being a quasi-spiritual experience that made you feel special during M1? With so many students facing burnout and suicides why are we putting people through this stress and discomfort without questioning how to make it better?

 

[Giovanotto]

While I'm just another M3...

1) I'm in surgery rotation now. Anatomy LECTURES have helped me know and understand things. I read netter and watched a video the night before. Dissection did not help me point out stuff during laparotomies at all.

2) Do rites of passage really have any place in medicine? Everything we're taught is about improving efficacy, saving time, and saving money.

You need to look at data and outcomes. Is this improving medical education in some tangible way outside being a quasi-spiritual experience that made you feel special during M1? With so many students facing burnout and suicides why are we putting people through this stress and discomfort without questioning how to make it better?

?????????????
Medical education is 100% rite of passage, the furthest thing from efficient, saving time, or money. Are you new here ?

 

[Dantes]

Be that as it may, I still got some enjoyment out of anatomy and nowhere else in medical education do you get to poke at a previously living person. Surgeries are so specific and pinpoint these days, it's not the same. I still vividly remember the way the sartorius muscle of my cadaver moved all the way across the thigh. I dont even particularly like anatomy, but I truly believe it's a right of passage and a necessary experience of medical school. It gave me an appreciation for the body.

Or maybe I'm getting nostalgic.

You have a point but that's why I think prosections are still the way to go. You can still get hands-on experience without wasting hours of your life sifting through fat and fascia that could be better spent on literally anything else.

 

[Osteosaur]

?????????????
Medical education is 100% rite of passage, the furthest thing from efficient, saving time, or money. Are you new here ?

That's my point. We SHOULD be trying to trim the fat and reduce waste.

I remember reading this naval-gazing post from a carribean grad once, about how awe-struck was dissecting her "first patient" as if she gained some new philosophical insights into life and medicine. Mostly you're just tired and gross and want to finish exposing the structures so you can get out and study. I think its lovely people are willing to donate their bodies to science. I just think its silly that we don't question this.

 

[Oligodinero]

All of this. Honestly the online stuff will probably extend past august as well because our state is a war zone right now. OP, give it a month or so and you'll be happy your pre-clinical stuff is online.

You're complaining even though its worse for 3rd years who should be on rotations, and 3rd years are complaining even though its worse for 4th years who wish they were on auditions trying to match. Its a big suck circle but honestly you probably got the least suck of all the suck.

See I have to disagree......I think the MS-1s have the rawest deal of all. All the residency PDs know that things are F'd up right now and are willing to deal with us only having one SLOE/audition, and not having PE scores back until after graduation....so it's kind of an even playing field. The first years are really screwed...they're trying to learn all this crap online, which totally blows. They're not allowed to gather in study halls or coffee shops to group-study. IDK how TF they're going to learn OMM technique without hands-on lab. I think if I had to go through what they're going through I'd have scored considerably worse on exams and my step/level scores would have been crap.

 

[Kr#36]

See I have to disagree......I think the MS-1s have the rawest deal of all. All the residency PDs know that things are F'd up right now and are willing to deal with us only having one SLOE/audition, and not having PE scores back until after graduation....so it's kind of an even playing field. The first years are really screwed...they're trying to learn all this crap online, which totally blows. They're not allowed to gather in study halls or coffee shops to group-study. IDK how TF they're going to learn OMM technique without hands-on lab. I think if I had to go through what they're going through I'd have scored considerably worse on exams and my step/level scores would have been crap.

I think you might be in the minority there. Most people I know learned everything online even without covid going on. And OMM is mostly made up garbage anyways, just memorize the stuff in Savarese for boards and you're fine. For someone from a DO school or with avg scores wanting to go into ortho, ENT, a decent IM place that will give them a shot at fellowship etc etc they needed to be able to impress on away rotations. They're screwed. PD's understand we're all dealing with Covid, but the advantage goes to the people with high board scores and home programs, the others are gonna be left clawing for scraps.

 

[libertyyne]

I think you might be in the minority there. Most people I know learned everything online even without covid going on. And OMM is mostly made up garbage anyways, just memorize the stuff in Savarese for boards and you're fine. For someone from a DO school or with avg scores wanting to go into ortho, ENT, a decent IM place that will give them a shot at fellowship etc etc they needed to be able to impress on away rotations. They're screwed. PD's understand we're all dealing with Covid, but the advantage goes to the people with high board scores and home programs, the others are gonna be left clawing for scraps.

This was always the case.

 

[PapaGuava]

Haha I was looking forward to anatomy lab, but it sounds like I might not be missing out... and yeah I’m glad I’m not an M3

I'm in the minority but I thought anatomy lab was an overall 'okay' experience. I won't defend it completely and say you were actively learning most of the time because a lot of it was just cleaning and finding everything you would later have to study on your own time. However, there is something to be said by going through the whole human body like that and seeing it all for the first time. In the long run you will be fine with not having to worry about those extra hours making sure your group was getting everything done on time OP.

 

[Rekt]

lmao not much of a con

Then you get to intern year and realize that environmental services could workup a a patient better than you.

I'm not sure how having online rotations is funny. Residency programs are actively discussing how they're going to handle how weak medical students are going to be.

 

[Cornfed101]

IDK how TF they're going to learn OMM technique without hands-on lab.

Oh OMM is still going to be in person. With lots of PPE. We are not doing anatomy dissection because we are doing OMM in person. Not enough lab space to social distance so anatomy got cut.

OMM with PPE is gonna be great. I can't wait. /s

 

[Alkaidius]

Then you get to intern year and realize that environmental services could workup a a patient better than you.

I'm not sure how having online rotations is funny. Residency programs are actively discussing how they're going to handle how weak medical students are going to be.

Honestly, if students don't treat 4th year like a vacation year this time around, the loss of time is basically negligible, especially given how much more emphasis a lot of students put on board prep in third year. Of course the onus is on each individual student to do this and senioritis has a way of sneaking up on you anyway lol. First and second year, online is basically a non-issue. I would imagine fourth years were most hurt by this considering they're having to dust off about 4 months of cobwebs as they enter intern year. Personally, I think the difference is going to be negligible for current fourth years. But I'm also an optimist.

 

[FindersFee5]

A hands-on opportunity to feel different tissues; experience cutting through skin vs muscle vs fat so your first time experiencing such isnt third year with an attending breathing down your neck; manipulating a human body on a patient you won’t harm; being personally acquainted with death in a controlled environment; gaining the experience of what dissection is like in the event that your career requires it (for many this may be their only exposure to pathology), discovering disease processes for yourself, Etc.

A few other people told you how different a formalin-infused carcass feels from a living, bleeding human. I'll third that opinion.

The other thing that's totally different about anatomy and surgery is the goal. I strongly disliked anatomy lab. It felt so pointless, unnecessarily difficult, and even grotesque sometimes.

But I'm applying into a surgical subspecialty. Why? Because surgery is about solving a problem. Your understanding of anatomy is what allows you to solve that problem in the least harmful way possible. The anatomical knowledge in and of itself is not the goal. It's like the difference between a vacationer trying to name specific peaks from a gondola, and a mountaineer scaling the Matterhorn.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Wow this threads off topic.


I thought anatomy was useful for stuff like the inguinal canal in surgery. That’s about it. But even stuff like that could be well-demonstrated with a model. We have 3D printers that could probably do it better and be cheaper in the long run.

As an aside, I think what’s done to these cadavers is pretty messed up. They’re not all just kind donations while they were still alive either. A lot of these people died in their nursing homes and their families didn’t care to pay for a funeral/cremation. So the nursing home is allowed to donate (sell) the body to a medical school if the next of kin sign a paper. Of course next of kin will sign because otherwise the home comes after them for the cost of “disposal.”