CRNA Hires Anesthesiologist

[johankriek]

The over concentration of media ownership in the hands of a privileged few does not encourage anti establishment investigative reporting but subjects the reader to the same worthless pro business drivel day after day.


Yes they love to write fluff articles, spoon feed to them by the hospitals public relations department, but Newspapers will almost never write an article critical of the hospital administration.

newspapers know what their jobs are. Right or left wing. they have to report the news. and if they dont, they will go out of business. and that hospital who doesnt have a qualified doctor in anesthesia availlable is NEWS..

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Taurus]

I agree. We need to establish a clear and vast difference between CRNA's and docs. Many CRNA's have this delusion that they are just as good as docs and should be paid equally. Once you give some people power, their heads can't fit through the door anymore. We need to open up more AA schools. I read that there are about 100 CRNA training centers. How long will it take to ramp up the AA schools and get licensure in all 50 states?

 

[Taurus]

I found this interesting link.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/industry.asp?txt=H01&cycle=2006

American Assn of Nurse Anesthetists $641,538
American Society of Anesthesiologists $921,850

The CRNA's have created a powerful lobbying force. They're like in the top 10.

 

[Lasvegas]

What the ASA needs is a good advertisement campaign like the Geico Insurance company's Caveman spots. Perhaps, we need a "monkey" instead of the caveman at the head of the table.

"Your Anesthesia is not monkey business." Make sure you have a Board Certified Anesthesiologist involved with your care. Don't bet your life on a monkey."

This would get the ASA's point across without bashing the CRNA's. We are the best and most qualified provider in the USA. It is time to get the message out to the public load and clear. We need to stop monkeying around and raise money for the T.V. spots after the movie AWAKE hits the theaters.

This may seem funny, but not a bad idea in principle. I belive the single most important thing any MD under 40 needs to be thinking about is this kind of advertising. If the ASA won't do it we need to start by forming a base of operation and start raising money - all of which to be used for radio, billboards and newspapers. Once again, this is exactly what the AANA has been doing for some time. We need to explain the ACT concept to the public so they don't begin thinking more and more that the solo CRNA is the norm.

I heard one ad recently where the voice said 'be sure to tell you CRNA about anything they ask honestly before your surgery - your CRNA needs to know in order to keep you safe' ect..... There is a billboard stating almost the exact same thing on I95 going from Miami to Ft. Lauderdale FL.

I belive once the public understands what's going on regarding the AANA agenda and politics they will become more enlightend AND more demanding about their own care.

 

[FLPAINDOC]

What the ASA needs is a good advertisement campaign like the Geico Insurance company's Caveman spots. Perhaps, we need a "monkey" instead of the caveman at the head of the table.

"Your Anesthesia is not monkey business." Make sure you have a Board Certified Anesthesiologist involved with your care. Don't bet your life on a monkey."

This would get the ASA's point across without bashing the CRNA's. We are the best and most qualified provider in the USA. It is time to get the message out to the public load and clear. We need to stop monkeying around and raise money for the T.V. spots after the movie AWAKE hits the theaters.

This is funny , tell me where to mail my check to help pay for this.

 

[toughlife]

I found this interesting link.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/industry.asp?txt=H01&cycle=2006

American Assn of Nurse Anesthetists $641,538
American Society of Anesthesiologists $921,850

The CRNA's have created a powerful lobbying force. They're like in the top 10.

Could we make a sticky thread for info like this?

 

[EtherMD]

I found this interesting link.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/industry.asp?txt=H01&cycle=2006

American Assn of Nurse Anesthetists $641,538
American Society of Anesthesiologists $921,850

The CRNA's have created a powerful lobbying force. They're like in the top 10.

Unless the ASA starts showing its membership a reason to contribute PAC money the AANA will pass it soon. Remember, more and more CRNA's are graduating every year. These CRNA's are earning record level pay and that means record level PAC money for the AANA.

The education campaign will put the ASA in touch with its membership and the public. PAC money needs to keep coming to the ASA but the focus needs to change from legislation as number one to education of the public as the main agenda.

The AA program agenda (we need at least 10-12 more AA schools ASAP) must be undertaken as part of the ASA's initiative. The guy on the ground needs to see some ACTION and believe the contribution makes a difference.

 

[Lasvegas]

Unless the ASA starts showing its membership a reason to contribute PAC money the AANA will pass it soon. Remember, more and more CRNA's are graduating every year. These CRNA's are earning record level pay and that means record level PAC money for the AANA.

The education campaign will put the ASA in touch with its membership and the public. PAC money needs to keep coming to the ASA but the focus needs to change from legislation as number one to education of the public as the main agenda.

The AA program agenda (we need at least 10-12 more AA schools ASAP) must be undertaken as part of the ASA's initiative. The guy on the ground needs to see some ACTION and believe the contribution makes a difference.

I fully support the AA concept. We need to help get as many AA schools started as possible.

YES, public education is also one of the major keys to our future as a whole. The AANA is tyring very hard to get the public thinking that the CRNA is the standard of care and the MD is not needed at all. This is what I believe we need to fight ASAP. However, if the ASA won't help in this regard, and we were to start our own PR program, does anyone have an idea as to how we would get the word out the entire ASA membership? Without everyone knowing about it to make their own choice I don't think we would stand a chance raising the money needed for such a PR drive.

That is the starting point.

 

[MacGyver]

Wrong. Dead Wrong. This what the AANA wants you to believe. I don't understand why people post this trash. The AANA believes its membership is the only Mid-Level Provider capable of providing Anesthesia at a level equal to an MD/DO. The AANA and most CRNA's view AA's as inferior "trash" that should not even be allowed to practice in any state. The AANA has spent big money blocking AA licensure in many States. Recently, the AANA waged a brutal smear campaign in North Carolina to block AA licensure. The AANA won the first battle by getting the bill for AA licensure killed in committee.

The AA profession is committed to the ACT model. The AA profession is the only friend the ASA has forthe Mid-Levels. Why would the ASA and the AANa allow AA's to gain independent practice? This would only take more jobs away from CRNA's in BFE. No sir. The AANA and ASA definitely agree on this issue and the AA's wouldn't stand a snow ball's chance in hell of ever getting Independent Practice rights. In fact, it will take decades just to get licensure in all states for AA's to practice in the ACT model.

Thats true, FOR NOW. You are incredibly naive if you think AAs wont seek expanded independence in 20 years. I'm going to say this again. There has NEVER been a midlevel practioner that did not SUCCESSFULLY LOBBY for increased autonomy/independence. Not one. AAs will follow the same model.

They'll be content under your thumb, for now.

 

[MacGyver]

You guys need to understand why its MDAs themselves who are propagating the meteoric rise of the CRNAs. Without hte help of greedy bastard MDAs in powerful positions, usually chairmen at academic programs, the CRNAs would not be nearly as successful. Anesthesiology had a branch point a number of years ago, a fork in the road so to speak. We all know which way the field headed.

A similar branch point occurred in surgery about 20 years ago. There was a widespread surgeon shortage, and there were proposals about creating midlevels to be "surgeon extenders" for bread/butter procedures like open cholys, etc. Of course this was sold as a way for surgeons to "supervise" these midlevels and make extra money. The model proposed was an extension of the RNFA (nurse first assistant programs) that would be extended by a year or so with simple surgical training. The RNs promised that they would always be supervised and that they could make a lot of money for the surgeons.

Now by all accounts surgeons would have made a killing if they agreed to support these programs and necessary legal changes to allow the scope of practice of RNFAs to be expanded. They could have at least doubled their income, if not more, by "supervising" these midlevels.

But the surgeons had higher priorities than just money. They had the foresight to recognize that they would be selling the soul of their profession to pretenders if they agreed to this monkey business. So of course this idea never came to fruition and as a result you wont find a single surgery anywher ein the country (even in Greenbow Alabama) that doesnt have a surgeon present.

General surgeons make about 280k or so, which is by all accounts less than an average anesthesiologist. But unlike the MDAs, who sold their souls for money, surgeons decided to maintain control over their field.

MDAs chose the fools gold.

 

[EtherMD]

Thats true, FOR NOW. You are incredibly naive if you think AAs wont seek expanded independence in 20 years. I'm going to say this again. There has NEVER been a midlevel practioner that did not SUCCESSFULLY LOBBY for increased autonomy/independence. Not one. AAs will follow the same model.

They'll be content under your thumb, for now.

It will take 20 years just to get AA's licensed in all 50 states. The AANA hates the concept of AA's and most CRNA's despise them. If you mean 50 years from now, maybe. But, we are in a war with the AANA today. We need to stem the tide of CRNA independence today and show that CRNA's are just Mid-Level providers, no more and no less. What better wat to prove this point to the AANA than by getting more AA programs. CRNA's view themselves as EQUAL to a MD/DO Anesthesiologist. THe AANA promotes this propoganda. Your fear of the AA's may be correct 50 years from now but we need to do something effective today.

As an example, we worked with the USSR in World War 2 to defeat the Nazi's.
We knew that down the road the USSR was going to be a problem for us. But, the situation demanded we work together to defeat a common enemy.

The AA's represent a return to the true Mid-Level provider to the operating room. They are decades away from getting INDEPENDENCE. Compare that to the CRNA and "opt-out" laws in quite a few states. In addition, any dentist can supervise a CRNA. The AA's are the answer for the next 30 years
guaranteed.

Do you think the AANA will allow another Mid-Level provider "Independence"?
This will take work away from SOLO CRNA's. THe ASA and AANA will work together on this one to defeat any bill allowing AA's independence. Thus, you will not see AA's practicing solo in your lifetime.

 

[Taurus]

So 4 AA schools are running and a 5th is about to open.

What other schools are in the planning stages?

 

[deleted50478]

Do you think the AANA will allow another Mid-Level provider "Independence"?
This will take work away from SOLO CRNA's. THe ASA and AANA will work together on this one to defeat any bill allowing AA's independence. Thus, you will not see AA's practicing solo in your lifetime.

First off, I want to say that I think training more AAs and fewer nurse anesthetists is a great idea. I don't know how AA politics would play out with the AANA though. I think it'd be very hard for them to oppose AA independence. They can't argue on the one hand that they should be independent providers while arguing against independence for AA's because any argument they make about the benefits of independent nurse anesthetists also applies to AAs. Sure they'll try for a while, but unless they can absolutely demonstate an outcome difference between nurses and AAs, they'll have to drop their opposition. It's hard for the AANA to say it's members should be able to play doctor without going to medical school while arguing that AAs shouldn't be able to play nurse without going to nursing school. It just won't hold up.

 

[Taurus]

First off, I want to say that I think training more AAs and fewer nurse anesthetists is a great idea. I don't know how AA politics would play out with the AANA though. I think it'd be very hard for them to oppose AA independence. They can't argue on the one hand that they should be independent providers while arguing against independence for AA's because any argument they make about the benefits of independent nurse anesthetists also applies to AAs. Sure they'll try for a while, but unless they can absolutely demonstate an outcome difference between nurses and AAs, they'll have to drop their opposition. It's hard for the AANA to say it's members should be able to play doctor without going to medical school while arguing that AAs shouldn't be able to play nurse without going to nursing school. It just won't hold up.

Yeah, I have to agree. Five years out of school, I don't that you can tell an AA from a CRNA. I think AA's are the answer in the immediate sense, but not for the long-term. Right now, CRNA's don't like AA's, but I see them allying with each other against the common enemy, the anesthesiologist. If the CRNA's become really prevalent, I also see Medicare cutting reimbursements. I think Medicare reimbursement levels right now assumes that the services are being handled mostly by a doc. If the bureaucrats see that there are lots of nurses with master's level education doing the job, then they will reimburse accordingly.

It's a shame that your predecessors sold out their specialty. I don't know if the midlevel trend can be stopped now.

 

[Noyac]

I wonder, can an AA ever be supervised by a crna? Many may answer by saying that they are trained to be supervised by doctors in an ACT setting. Well, what if that crna is a dr of nursing? I could see this in the future being an issue if this stupid dr of nursing **** continues.

Anyway, I think AA's are a good solution to the current issues.

 

[toughlife]

I wonder, can an AA ever be supervised by a crna? Many may answer by saying that they are trained to be supervised by doctors in an ACT setting. Well, what if that crna is a dr of nursing? I could see this in the future being an issue if this stupid dr of nursing **** continues.

Anyway, I think AA's are a good solution to the current issues.

I meant to add a comment on a different thread not this one.

 

[Noyac]

My bad.

 

[cfdavid]

I shadowed and met with the AA program director at Case Western's program when I was deciding whether to do an AA program or go to med school. The PD was very specific in specifying the assistant role of an AA (go figure..), and their role as technologists and not physicians (again, go figure). They made it quite clear that the AA programs were supporters of the ACT model. Frankly, I was very impressed with the people I met down there.

I know that rhetoric can change quickly, but I will feel much better down the road working with AA's than with CRNA's and their militant lobby.

Come to think of it, many of these advanced practice nurses remind me of a bunch of bitter, "scorned" women. Except for my aunt, that is.... lol

 

[jwk]

I wonder, can an AA ever be supervised by a crna? Many may answer by saying that they are trained to be supervised by doctors in an ACT setting. Well, what if that crna is a dr of nursing? I could see this in the future being an issue if this stupid dr of nursing **** continues.

Anyway, I think AA's are a good solution to the current issues.

Might be the wrong thread, but I'll give you the answer - NO, a CRNA cannot supervise or medically direct an AA. The DNP thing is a separate smokescreen that has no effect on AA practice.

 

[toughlife]

Might be the wrong thread, but I'll give you the answer - NO, a CRNA cannot supervise or medically direct an AA. The DNP thing is a separate smokescreen that has no effect on AA practice.

That would be strange and wrong. What can the CRNA tell the AA that he/she doesn't already know.

 

[jwk]

That would be strange and wrong. What can the CRNA tell the AA that he/she doesn't already know.

I think you misread my post

 

[MacGyver]

If the CRNA's become really prevalent, I also see Medicare cutting reimbursements. I think Medicare reimbursement levels right now assumes that the services are being handled mostly by a doc. If the bureaucrats see that there are lots of nurses with master's level education doing the job, then they will reimburse accordingly.

This is key, but I think you missed the main reason for it.

CRNAs are BY FAR the highest paid nurses. They easily make more than double what other "advanced practice" nurses or NPs make.

What this means is that Medicare could slash reimbursement by 50%, and yet still have a large pool of CRNAs willing to work for that wage. What are they going to do? Go become NPs and make at leaste 60% less than as a CRNA? Dont think so.

The CRNAs have no way out to other high paying nursing specialties, which means they have no leverage against massive Medicare cuts to gas reimbursement. Thats bad news for MDAs, because Medicare knows this and can rightly assume that although some MDAs may leave the field, they have captured virtually 100% of CRNAs as willing workers even in the face of vast cuts in reimbursement.

 

[Monty Python]

I wonder, can an AA ever be supervised by a crna? Many may answer by saying that they are trained to be supervised by doctors in an ACT setting. .

Various regulatory and licensure details obstruct CRNA supervision or training of AAs, or vice versa.

 

[Taurus]

The CRNAs have no way out to other high paying nursing specialties, which means they have no leverage against massive Medicare cuts to gas reimbursement. Thats bad news for MDAs, because Medicare knows this and can rightly assume that although some MDAs may leave the field, they have captured virtually 100% of CRNAs as willing workers even in the face of vast cuts in reimbursement.

With the stroke of a pen, Medicare cut imaging reimbursements by 30% starting this year. I can see them doing the same thing with gas work. In my opinion, it's very hard to justify paying a large group of nurses with master's level education $150-200k for working 40 hours/week. The CRNA's aggressive success may in the end hurt everyone.

 

[toughlife]

I think you misread my post

I meant that there's nothing a CRNA could teach to an AA that the AA wouldn't already know. If they both have the same years in the field I am not sure how a CRNA could supervise an AA.

 

[EtherMD]

I meant that there's nothing a CRNA could teach to an AA that the AA wouldn't already know. If they both have the same years in the field I am not sure how a CRNA could supervise an AA.

Are you sure there is nothing a CRNA couldn't teach an AA? How about forming a great union/lobby and getting practice rights without a Medical Degree? Or, getting your parent organization to make wild claims about being equal to an MD/DO?

 

[toughlife]

Are you sure there is nothing a CRNA couldn't teach an AA? How about forming a great union/lobby and getting practice rights without a Medical Degree? Or, getting your parent organization to make wild claims about being equal to an MD/DO?

I was referring to issues related to AAs performing their jobs.

 

[jwk]

Are you sure there is nothing a CRNA couldn't teach an AA? How about forming a great union/lobby and getting practice rights without a Medical Degree? Or, getting your parent organization to make wild claims about being equal to an MD/DO?

Trust me - there's absolutely NOTHING I want to learn from CRNA's.

 

[EtherMD]

Trust me - there's absolutely NOTHING I want to learn from CRNA's.

How about how to take a long break and bash the MD?

 

[toughlife]

stop picking on JWK. He's been a supporter.

 

[EtherMD]

stop picking on JWK. He's been a supporter.

I was being sarcastic. I know JWK is a supporter of the ACT model. He posts on allnurses.com as well. I firmly believe the AA profession is the ANSWER to the current problem with the AANA. AA's can do everything a CRNA can do under the supervision of an Anesthesiologist. They actually believe an MD/DO has value to the ACT unlike the AANA.

 

[Ender]

This may seem funny, but not a bad idea in principle. I belive the single most important thing any MD under 40 needs to be thinking about is this kind of advertising. If the ASA won't do it we need to start by forming a base of operation and start raising money - all of which to be used for radio, billboards and newspapers. Once again, this is exactly what the AANA has been doing for some time. We need to explain the ACT concept to the public so they don't begin thinking more and more that the solo CRNA is the norm.

I heard one ad recently where the voice said 'be sure to tell you CRNA about anything they ask honestly before your surgery - your CRNA needs to know in order to keep you safe' ect..... There is a billboard stating almost the exact same thing on I95 going from Miami to Ft. Lauderdale FL.

I belive once the public understands what's going on regarding the AANA agenda and politics they will become more enlightend AND more demanding about their own care.

Wow,

Ender

 

[EtherMD]

It would not be too difficult to start this. We could make a website with articles from you SDN members discussing this issue (it is really easy to write HTML and CSS to create web pages). Also we could create a video clip (with the chimp or monkey) and post it on the site. We could also post it on "youtube" and send links or emails to everyone we know. Sooner or later everyone needs surgery (family, friends, friends of friends). We all know how far chain letters can go. Lets start some tasteful ones that are focused on educating the public.

Ender

Ender, have you watched any Videos on www.trunkmonkey.com? I urge you to do so and see how funny the chimp is on those videos. 'Road Rage' video started it all and is very funny.

The ASA needs to be part of the funny educational campaign. I believe the video will have WAY more impact on today's society than any flier. The movie "Awake" is going to make the topic of Anesthesia high profile for a while. This would be a good time to get the message out with the video.
Next, Oprah and the talk shows.

 

[Ender]

Now that is funny!

Ender

 

[cfdavid]

I was being sarcastic. I know JWK is a supporter of the ACT model. He posts on allnurses.com as well. I firmly believe the AA profession is the ANSWER to the current problem with the AANA. AA's can do everything a CRNA can do under the supervision of an Anesthesiologist. They actually believe an MD/DO has value to the ACT unlike the AANA.

Agreed, and as a result, there's a mutual respect. Most of us acknowledge that mid-level providers are important across the board (not just anesthesiology). The level of mistrust developing b/t MD/DO's and CRNA's is not healthy, but it is what it is.

Ether, how would we encourage departments to consider funding AA programs versus CRNA programs? It seems that is a VERY difficult feat. Any input is welcomed.

 

[EtherMD]

Agreed, and as a result, there's a mutual respect. Most of us acknowledge that mid-level providers are important across the board (not just anesthesiology). The level of mistrust developing b/t MD/DO's and CRNA's is not healthy, but it is what it is.

Ether, how would we encourage departments to consider funding AA programs versus CRNA programs? It seems that is a VERY difficult feat. Any input is welcomed.

Major political problem. Chairs are happy with the current arrangement. SRNA's are cheap labor and CRNA schools are profitable for the Nursing School. Why rock the boat? Most Chairs are not going to make waves when they can earn $500,000 plus and maintain the status quo. Similarly, the ASA doesn't want to offend MD/DO's making big bucks off SRNA's. I know a Group (not mine) that makes MILLIONS off the SRNA's at their hospital. After just three weeks of training the SRNA's are doing cases solo. This Group charges the insurance company for their services. In an effort to boost profit, SRNA's are not assigned to Medicare cases as they do not pay for SRNA's unless 1:1 supervision occurs.

Now you know why the AANA wants SRNA's included in the Medicare Teaching Bill for Resident Education. This Group's income would increase to $1.3 Million per partner if the bill passes.

The hospital that has this SRNA program is one of the largest in the SouthEast and a major Trauma (Level 1) facility. The administration knows this goes on but tolerates it because they don't have to pay a subsidy.
Is this moral? No. But, is it legal, absolutely. The SRNA's even call themselves Residents.

 

[rn29306]

Major political problem. Chairs are happy with the current arrangement. SRNA's are cheap labor and CRNA schools are profitable for the Nursing School. Why rock the boat? Most Chairs are not going to make waves when they can earn $500,000 plus and maintain the status quo. Similarly, the ASA doesn't want to offend MD/DO's making big bucks off SRNA's. I know a Group (not mine) that makes MILLIONS off the SRNA's at their hospital. After just three weeks of training the SRNA's are doing cases solo. This Group charges the insurance company for their services. In an effort to boost profit, SRNA's are not assigned to Medicare cases as they do not pay for SRNA's unless 1:1 supervision occurs.

Now you know why the AANA wants SRNA's included in the Medicare Teaching Bill for Resident Education. This Group's income would increase to $1.3 Million per partner if the bill passes.

The hospital that has this SRNA program is one of the largest in the SouthEast and a major Trauma (Level 1) facility. The SRNA's even call themselves Residents.

I for one would personally like for you to publically announce this program...Why? Because here in the Southeast, there aren't that many Level 1 TC's that have SRNA programs. And I don't believe your statement that I bolded.

Seniors run cases solo at my southeastern level 1 TC but I know of NO center that takes a junior SRNA (assuming an integrated program) and turns them loose on cases unsupervised. Now if the program in mention you are speaking of is a front loaded program, then they are technically seniors when turned loose.....And I would venture to guess this program also has a residency training as for your statement about SRNAs calling themselves residents.

Am I to guess Augusta?

So what's the name of this program?

So which is the program? Integrated or front-loaded?

 

[EtherMD]

I for one would personally like for you to publically announce this program...Why? Because here in the Southeast, there aren't that many Level 1 TC's that have SRNA programs. And I don't believe your statement that I bolded.

Seniors run cases solo at my southeastern level 1 TC but I know of NO center that takes a junior SRNA (assuming an integrated program) and turns them loose on cases unsupervised. Now if the program in mention you are speaking of is a front loaded program, then they are technically seniors when turned loose.....And I would venture to guess this program also has a residency training as for your statement about SRNAs calling themselves residents.

Am I to guess Augusta?

So what's the name of this program?

So which is the program? Integrated or front-loaded?

Look you are a fool. I hired three graduates from this program and they all will swear in court I am telling the truth. They tell horror stories about this place that would blow you away. They were FIRST year SRNA's with just a few weeks of clinical experience when they had to do their cases SOLO. They were literally thrown to the wolves. This place has Residents but SRNA's are not Residents.

 

[rn29306]

Look you are a fool. I hired three graduates from this program and they all will swear in court I am telling the truth. They tell horror stories about this place that would blow you away. They were FIRST year SRNA's with just a few weeks of clinical experience when they had to do their cases SOLO. They were literally thrown to the wolves. This place has Residents but SRNA's are not Residents.

All I asked you to do was name the program you were boasting about and you start in with the name calling. Nice try at diversion jackass, but it takes away your credibility when you all of a sudden go off on tangents when someone asks to see your cards...

And I never said SRNAs = residents now did I? You narrowed down the place when you mentioned your origional post...don't get pissed that I picked up on that slip.

Just name the place that's all. Or are you hesitating because then your info would be readily either confirmed or denied? If you are so forthright in what you believe, why are you hiding the info?

Now who's the fool?

 

[SexPanther]

All I asked you to do was name the program you were boasting about and you start in with the name calling. Nice try at diversion jackass, but it takes away your credibility when you all of a sudden go off on tangents when someone asks to see your cards...

And I never said SRNAs = residents now did I? You narrowed down the place when you mentioned your origional post...don't get pissed that I picked up on that slip.

Just name the place that's all. Or are you hesitating because then your info would be readily either confirmed or denied? If you are so forthright in what you believe, why are you hiding the info?

Now who's the fool?

Stop trolling on our board.

 

[EtherMD]

My information is 100% accurate and truthful. I will not answer Nurse Trolls and recommend that they be banned from this site if they are disrespectful.

As an experienced Board Certified Anesthesiologist I am here to provide facts and opinions. I stated the FACTS in my previous post about an SRNA program in my State. If the Nurse troll is curious he/she can find out the name of the program by doing a little research. I provided enough information that only a handful of CRNA schools could fit the profile. My facts are accurate and the Group running the program is using inexperienced, first year SRNA's to boost its bottom line. The CRNA program and the hospital look the other way because it benefits them. Another case where greed is more important than patient care or teaching students. Does this really suprise you? After all, with Resident SRNA's running around the hospital and soon to be DOCTORS of Nurse Anesthesia this is what the AANA wants to happen. The Group is using first year SRNA students with minimal experience (3 weeks) to do cases solo just like a First year Anesthesia Resident.

Again, disrespectful Nurses should be banned from the site, period.

 

[rn29306]

I will not answer Nurse Trolls and recommend that they be banned from this site if they are disrespectful.


Again, disrespectful Nurses should be banned from the site, period.

You called me a fool when I simply asked for a school name. Jesus dude you started the name calling.
Please forgive me for not blindly believing everything you say like some lemming on here...

 

[Faebinder]

I think the ASA needs to have a very deep conversation with the american college of surgeons and the rest of the surgery organizations... cause in all honesty, that's the only way to fix this.... You need the big head in charge of all the ORs (very likely a surgeon... a general surgeon) to give support.

 

[jjohnnym65]

I was being sarcastic. I know JWK is a supporter of the ACT model. He posts on allnurses.com as well. I firmly believe the AA profession is the ANSWER to the current problem with the AANA. AA's can do everything a CRNA can do under the supervision of an Anesthesiologist. They actually believe an MD/DO has value to the ACT unlike the AANA.

Please forgive my ignorace but what is the ACT model?

Secondly after browsing the websites of the various AA programs I noticed that for I believe 3 of the 4 programs an 8 hour shadowing experience is all that is required for prior healthcare experience. The CRNA programs require the applicant to be an ICU RN for a year before they are eligible. To me this might be seen as a weak point in the AA admission model that the AANA could cite when putting up resistance to AA licensure; or maybe not because obviously everything you ever need to know about clinical practice should and will be taught in the AA program itself.

Do you think it would be a good idea for AA schools to make prior (preferably compensated) healthcare experience a significant part of the admissions criteria? I only ask because I'm not exactly a chem/physics/orgo chem whiz. I can pull B's and B+'s but if and when I apply to PA school I'm mainly hanging my hat on clinical experience and it is a significant factor in admissions decisions. Also different schools award different point values for the various healthcare fields. For example here is Bulter University's experience hierarchy:


Guidelines for Scoring Healthcare Experience

Total Modifiers (Max total score = 15)
<1 yr= +1pt
1-5 yr= +2pt
>5 yr= +3 pt

Categories:
I. MD, DDS, DVM, PT, DPM, Pharm.D.=12

II. RN, Paramedic, RT, AT, OT, RD, Mortician, Military Medic 18 Delta-trained =10

III. EMT, Licensed Massage Therapist, Surgical Tech, Military Medic 91C, Med Tech, Dental Hygienist, LPN=8

IV. Sonographer, Radiographer, MRI/CT Tech, Military Medic 91B, CMA, CNA, Dental Assistant, Lifeguard, PMA, Pharmacy Tech=6

V. Orderly, Doula=4

VI. Volunteer=2

VII. NO HEALTHCARE EXPERIENCE=0
* 1 year is defined as 2000 hours of work experience.

here's the link to the page:
http://www.butler.edu/cophs/index.aspx?pg=2081&parentID=2077-2041#a04

With this model I would stand a better chance of admission (RT with 2.5 years experience) than I would with the current AA model as I would have nearly maximum experience points and the program states that the average point level for admitted applicants is 8. I figure that 13 is probably the real maximum score as I don't know why anyone who is already an MD, dentist, vet, podiatrist or pharmacist would want to go back to PA or AA school in the first place. Anyway this is just an idea that would counter any AANA claim that applicants to their programs are more seasoned in direct patient care before even entering the didactic phase.

Thanks for reading.

 

[core0]

Please forgive my ignorace but what is the ACT model?

Secondly after browsing the websites of the various AA programs I noticed that for I believe 3 of the 4 programs an 8 hour shadowing experience is all that is required for prior healthcare experience. The CRNA programs require the applicant to be an ICU RN for a year before they are eligible. To me this might be seen as a weak point in the AA admission model that the AANA could cite when putting up resistance to AA licensure; or maybe not because obviously everything you ever need to know about clinical practice should and will be taught in the AA program itself.

Do you think it would be a good idea for AA schools to make prior (preferably compensated) healthcare experience a significant part of the admissions criteria? I only ask because I'm not exactly a chem/physics/orgo chem whiz. I can pull B's and B+'s but if and when I apply to PA school I'm mainly hanging my hat on clinical experience and it is a significant factor in admissions decisions. Also different schools award different point values for the various healthcare fields. For example here is Bulter University's experience hierarchy:

I'll let someone else answer this but I would guess since they reference more O-chem etc. that this is a better indicator of turing out a good AA.

snip
With this model I would stand a better chance of admission (RT with 2.5 years experience) than I would with the current AA model as I would have nearly maximum experience points and the program states that the average point level for admitted applicants is 8. I figure that 13 is probably the real maximum score as I don't know why anyone who is already an MD, dentist, vet, podiatrist or pharmacist would want to go back to PA or AA school in the first place. Anyway this is just an idea that would counter any AANA claim that applicants to their programs are more seasoned in direct patient care before even entering the didactic phase.

Thanks for reading.

The PA model was started on the foundation of prior medical experience. The Butler program is more detailed than most. To directly answer your question there are non US trained MD's that are unable to get residencies or otherwise ineligible for US licenses that apply to PA programs. There are pharmacists that want to take care of patients instead of working for Walmart 60 hours per week. You might get a better response to PA questions in the PA forum here or at http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[johankriek]

Get Lost Nurse.. Or Should I Say Murse..

 

[rn29306]

Get Lost Nurse.. Or Should I Say Murse..

You act as if that's an insult for some reason. Grow up.

Truth is, it was a valid question concerning some Chicken Little-esque "the sky is falling" statements simply intended to rile you residents and MDs up. I have connections with just about every southeastern CRNA program and now he won't comment on which one because I called him on it.

You guys can say what you want about nurses. Opinions are like rectums. Lies are something entirely different.