CRNA or MD Help Please, I'm so confused!

[Trismegistus4]

And besides the Freakonomics dudes--who I trust implicitly because...well they're economists AND freaks--indicate that the best predictor of the success of progeny is the educational level of their mother.

That's very interesting, but I'd want to know how they defined "success." If it means, say, making more money or getting a graduate degree, then success is not necessarily what our society needs more of. This is getting way off-topic for this thread, and this forum, but the current direction of our society, wherein we expect everyone to go to grad school and get some upper-middle class, professional, service industry job, is not sustainable. If studies show that the offspring of more educated mothers are more likely to become doctors, lawyers, and accountants rather than carpenters, plumbers, and manufacturing technicians, I wouldn't say that more advanced education of women is necessarily a good thing.

I love Tris: brutally honest (i've read many threads, big fan)

Whoa, I have actual fans! Sweet!

Honestly, your words reveal your bias, "farmed out"? Its as sexist a view as "women should be pregnant in the kitchen, not in med school".

It's only bias if you consider it a "biased" view that young children should be cared for by their mothers. This is something biological, which both mothers and children feel an instinctive affinity for. If believing that human nature exists and that it can't be changed according to our whims is sexist, then I guess I'm a sexist.

Again, you have made my point more vividly than I could. Thats exactly my point, your dreams are personal. I'm not trying to push for med school, I'm pushing for the OP's passions and dreams, I never said what her dreams were or should be. Assumptions lead to mistakes ya know.

Some of us are trying to tease out exactly what the OP's dreams are, since she's not sure that she wants to go to medical school. Part of the purpose of my post was to say that it sounds like her desire to go to medical school is not great enough to justify deciding to do so. I think that she would find becoming a doctor to be not worth it. She's free to take or leave that advice, or yours. I'd also say that while you might think you are being neutral, because medical school is such a huge time-consuming effort, people tend to think of it as on some kind of higher plane than other endeavors, and the effect of saying things like "follow your dreams, plenty of people have done it and balanced it with family, if you really want it badly enough you can make it happen, fly, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, fly" is to argue in favor of going to medical school.

OP, when I was considering medicine, wondering whether I should quit my job and start a post-bacc, I posted on oldpremeds.com and someone there replied "I'm not really hearing from you a reason why you want to be a doctor other than you feel it would be an intellectual challenge worth of your skills." This made me angry; I almost wanted to say "stop questioning my deisre to be a doctor, just take my word that I want to do it and give me some advice about making it happen." But now, as a medical student--one who has no great love for the profession, mind you, and regrets his decision--I agree with this person. Her remark stung precisely because I knew deep down that my desire to enter medicine wasn't sufficiently great to carry me through. And so I would say the same thing to you. You haven't really articulated any real reason why you want to be a doctor, other than prestige, autonomy, and "doing more" for your patients. This isn't a slam against you; it's just an observation. Prestige, autonomy, and doing more for your patients are great, but are they great enough for you to sacrifice an entire decade of your life--medical school plus residency--having to bury your nose in textbooks for hours every day, having no prestige and no autonomy (i.e., getting dumped on by arrogant, pompous "attendings,") only to emerge from the other end, just beginning your career with grey hairs already on your head, and wrinkles already under your eyes, with young children who wish you spent more time with them and a husband who's little more than someone you share a bed and utility bills with? You can answer that question yourself better than anyone on this board, as none of us really know you. I would just say that you must be honest with yourself, really examine your motives, and if you decide to go for medicine, do it only because there's nothing else in this life that means as much to you. Don't allow yourself to talk yourself into it.

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[kia ora]

If studies show that the offspring of more educated mothers are more likely to become doctors, lawyers, and accountants rather than carpenters, plumbers, and manufacturing technicians, I wouldn't say that more advanced education of women is necessarily a good thing.

yeah, we probably shouldn't be encouraged to wear shoes, either...that would make it more likely that we'd actually leave the house, and we might go out into the world and have, like, independent thoughts and stuff

 

[maxwell0]

yeah, we probably shouldn't be encouraged to wear shoes, either...that would make it more likely that we'd actually leave the house, and we might go out into the world and have, like, independent thoughts and stuff

And if we did leave the house, who would be there to churn the butter and run the wringer washer? A man? Oh...the horror...the horror.

 

[maxwell0]

This is getting way off-topic for this thread, and this forum, but the current direction of our society, wherein we expect everyone to go to grad school and get some upper-middle class, professional, service industry job, is not sustainable.

And by "everyone", you mean "women", correct?

 

[yadayadadude]

If studies show that the offspring of more educated mothers are more likely to become doctors, lawyers, and accountants rather than carpenters, plumbers, and manufacturing technicians, I wouldn't say that more advanced education of women is necessarily a good thing.

I've read this over several times, and I have no idea what it means. Do you think women should forgo education in order to raise future plumbers?

It's only bias if you consider it a "biased" view that young children should be cared for by their mothers.

As it happens, I do.

This is something biological, which both mothers and children feel an instinctive affinity for.

I'm a mother and I feel no such instinctive affinity -- no desire whatsoever to care for my son exclusively, full-time, day in and out. Nor do many of the other mothers I know. In my experience, my entire family thrives when my son is cared for cooperatively by myself, his father, and a close circle of loving caregivers including extended family, friends, his daycare providers.

As an aside, it cracks me up when single, childless men lecture women about how to mother. It's pretty much my favorite thing about SDN. Too funny.

 

[Coastie]

I'm an anesthesiology resident...

CRNA = 28 months, and when you're out, 40 hrs a week with no major responsibility and 180k+ a year.

MD = 8+ years once you start, and you have all the responsibility, longer weeks, and while you have more money, it takes a while to catch up to the economics of the CRNA model.

apply to AA school as well...and think about PA school if you're thinking of other areas of medicine to work in.

CRNAs are going to have a glut pretty soon, but I think it's still a good way to go economically for the time being.

At the end of the day, it depends on what you want...Do you want to be a technician (CRNA) or a physician?

Good luck.

Hi there!

I am 26 years old and am thinking should I attend medical school or CRNA. I'm a critical care nurse and have my BSN. I am happy with my career but I want more. I want the respect, autonomy, and want to be able to do more for my patients. I also want to have children and think its going to be too late when I'm able too if I attend med school. I am getting married this year and although my fiance is very supportive I know kids is something that he really wants as well and I don't want it to be too late when I'm ready to have children. Would it be beneficially for me to attend med school or should I just become a CRNA?

Thank you!

 

[7starmantis]

It's only bias if you consider it a "biased" view that young children should be cared for by their mothers. This is something biological, which both mothers and children feel an instinctive affinity for. If believing that human nature exists and that it can't be changed according to our whims is sexist, then I guess I'm a sexist.

No no, you have changed the argument to avoid my point. I didn't say being cared for by the mother was biased, but your post that is is somehow better, or imparts more success to the child by being raised strictly by the mother. You have no source for your declarations of "human nature" and "biology" other than your own academic status (which doesn't hold much weight I'm afraid).

I'd also say that while you might think you are being neutral, because medical school is such a huge time-consuming effort, people tend to think of it as on some kind of higher plane than other endeavors, and the effect of saying things like "follow your dreams, plenty of people have done it and balanced it with family, if you really want it badly enough you can make it happen, fly, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, fly" is to argue in favor of going to medical school.

Um, circular logic much? Saying I'm arguing for the OP to attend med school by saying "follow your dreams" is only accurate if you believe that medical school is in fact "on a higher plane that other endeavors", which it certainly appears you do. Sounds like you should take your own advice.

But now, as a medical student--one who has no great love for the profession, mind you, and regrets his decision--I agree with this person. Her remark stung precisely because I knew deep down that my desire to enter medicine wasn't sufficiently great to carry me through.

And I think we have found the crux of the real issue here.

If studies show that the offspring of more educated mothers are more likely to become doctors, lawyers, and accountants rather than carpenters, plumbers, and manufacturing technicians, I wouldn't say that more advanced education of women is necessarily a good thing.

Again, I’m honestly not trying to be mean, but your bias just keeps leaking out in your posts. Your above statement only holds water if you believe being “doctors, lawyers, and accountants” is somehow superior to being “carpenters, plumbers, and manufacturing technicians”. I find that mentality sad and I can see why you regret your decisions to go to med school.

 

[vanslix]

I have a son who's 13 so he's quite a bit more autonomous but I wrestled with big time. There's no perfect time and there will be sacrifices, period. What helped me was that my dad had worked 60 hour weeks for years and it never impacted me in a negative light whatsoever. You just need to focus on the quality of time spent vs. quantity.

 

[riverjib]

Great response! Tris's views may have a place here, but I think his experience is better relegated to pre-meds who are wavering so much in their decision to pursue medicine that they probably shouldn't.

He's miserable in medical school, misogynistic, and has clearly stated elsewhere that anyone over 30 is past their intellectual peak and doesn't belong in the medical profession. I've seen people with valid points get "probationary" status here for less than the strong statements he has made.

 

[Trismegistus4]

And by "everyone", you mean "women", correct?

No, I mean everyone.

I've read this over several times, and I have no idea what it means. Do you think women should forgo education in order to raise future plumbers?

No, you missed the point. Nasrudin implied that since the Freakonomics authors allegedly showed that more education for mothers correlates with "success" of their children, it's good for more women to attain higher levels of education (like the OP) because then their children will be more "successful," and of course having more "successful" children must be a good thing. To which I said, "not so fast; whether it's good for more people to be 'successful' depends on the definition of 'success.'" If "success" just means becoming a doctor, lawyer, or accountant instead of a plumber or carpenter, then I don't agree that our society needs more "success," since we already have a glut of service industry and need to start making things again or our economy will be unsustainable. So I don't agree that women should become doctors rather than CRNA's if that means their children will be more likely to become upper-middle-class pencil-pushers. Which means, in a sense, I suppose I do think women should forgo education to raise future plumbers.

As an aside, it cracks me up when single, childless men lecture women about how to mother. It's pretty much my favorite thing about SDN. Too funny.

Glad I can pepper your day with humor. My mission in life is to make people smile.

Um, circular logic much? Saying I'm arguing for the OP to attend med school by saying "follow your dreams" is only accurate if you believe that medical school is in fact "on a higher plane that other endeavors", which it certainly appears you do.

Where on earth did you get that idea? I've gained a reputation for hijacking threads with my negative thoughts about medical school. I've publicly posted the words "I hate medicine" on this very forum. What gave you the impression that I believe medicine is on a higher plane than other endeavors? Most pre-meds, and many medical students, seem to think that, but not I. You're damn right being a plumber is better than being a doctor.

And I think we have found the crux of the real issue here.

Only if you think that I have been hiding the fact that I went into medicine for the wrong reasons, and am afraid to admit this; but in fact I have been broadcasting this around here for months.

Again, I’m honestly not trying to be mean, but your bias just keeps leaking out in your posts. Your above statement only holds water if you believe being “doctors, lawyers, and accountants” is somehow superior to being “carpenters, plumbers, and manufacturing technicians”. I find that mentality sad and I can see why you regret your decisions to go to med school.

Again, you totally misread me. It's the other way around. I believe being "carpenters, plumbers, and manufacturing technicians" is superior to being "doctors, lawyers, and accountants."

 

[Nasrudin]

I believe being "carpenters, plumbers, and manufacturing technicians" is superior to being "doctors, lawyers, and accountants."

Well. Having actually worked in the trades. I think your presumptive/idealistic tendencies are subverting your perception. Maybe you could make the case for plumbers. If you don't mind crawling around. And dealing with the occasional very messy situation. But carpentry. Get a f'n clue. You'll be hauling your tools to the next job site wondering how long your work will last this time. Trying to out compete illegals for bottoms out bids.

Manufacturing. dude. can I get a hit of that. Are you chinese. neither am i.

Having a profession means the market is exclusive to those who have passed through the right hoops. meaning you live better. get more respect. and can support the people you love.

try it on the other side before you wax poetic about the nobility of blue collar labor.

 

[EdLongshanks]

try it on the other side before you wax poetic about the nobility of blue collar labor.

I think this non-trad forum is mostly immune to this particular poetic fantasy. But if tris needs some experience, I believe that Ron's Jons portable toilets (We're #1 in the #2 business) may still be needing some help.

 

[Nasrudin]

I think this non-trad forum is mostly immune to this particular poetic fantasy. But if tris needs some experience, I believe that Ron's Jons portable toilets (We're #1 in the #2 business) may still be needing some help.

Ed. I've heard some silly things come from the mouths of physicians about how they should have been this or that. Even if they're a 30 something. What do they really know about labor if they went straight through school. They think tradesman bask in the sun, drinking beer, and high-fiving about women stories all day long.

Which speaks to a theory I'm developing about how medicine cultivates imperial personalities. Their narrow experience prevents them from seeing it. hmm. later.

 

[Trismegistus4]

try it on the other side before you wax poetic about the nobility of blue collar labor.

My dad is a small-time, not very successful contractor who does home renovations. I've worked for him doing general labor, I've worked on a maintenance/groundskeeping crew, I've worked stocking supermarket shelves overnight. I don't have any illusions about manual labor. They're dirty jobs--but somebody's got to do them. My point is that our country should still have well-paying, stable blue-collar jobs like it used to, if we know what's good for us, if we want our economy to be sustainable in the long run. Don't just throw your hands up and say "well, Mexicans haul the lumber now, and the Chinese make the goods, that's just the way it is, nothing we can do." What are all the low-IQ Americans who don't have what it takes, cognitively, to become doctors, laywers, and accountants supposed to do?

 

[7starmantis]

What are all the low-IQ Americans who don't have what it takes, cognitively, to become doctors, laywers, and accountants supposed to do?

Seriously. Do we really have to be subjected to this type of bigoted drabble every time we open a thread? I mean we all know every American who is not a doctor, lawyer, or accountant is low IQ, and lacking personal drive or value of life.

Enough already.

 

[jl lin]

My eldest brother's IQ is in the 140 zone, and he is a carpenter. He also graduated suma cum w/ a degree in psychology. You know, people make career choices for all different reasons. He happens to be a big hunter and is outdoorsy and likes to do his own thing.

People do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons.

And then some people's choices seem limited from early on.
My youngest brother has never gone to college like the rest of kids, and he never will. He sustained serious anoxia at birth and had some other problems.
Even so, truthfully, he is one of the brightest and more insightful disabled people I know. And honestly he more sense and discernment than a lot of folks.

Also he can remember sport stats like no body's business. So, no he will never go to college much less medical school, but I tell him all the time he should go into politics. He knows everyone in town and everyone loves him. He has contributed to society, frequents the library, helps many neighbors. He has helped cared for a sickly grandmother over a very long period of timie and is a wonderful person.

You know what he does? He helps people regularly and puts genuine smiles on peoples' faces.

So what he does in terms of work doesn't make him inferior or superior. It is who he is and how he lives and how great (truly) he loves others--and that has more to do with one's value of life than IQ--by far.

 

[7starmantis]

Good post. Its posts like Tris' that show how sad it is that some people think what they do somehow defines who they are. Its just a small little portion of who you are, well sadly in some people it actually is who they are, and that makes them miserable. Enter Tris.

 

[kristieb1]

Have kids first while you are taking pre-requisite coursework or something. Then after your child is walking and starting to talk delegate your parental duties out to a trusted nanny or a trusted day care center during the time you are at Med school and studying.

You would have to use your time very efficiently. Like have all your studying done by 6pm so that you could have evenings with your child. If you need to pull an all-nighter then hubby needs to do his part and take care of the little one at night.

I always knew that I wanted to have kids. My mother tried for 10 years before she was able to get pregnant, so I wanted to start young in case I encountered similar problems (well I didn't have that problem lol I got pregnant on the very first cycle we tried). I also knew having a child FIRST would allow me to feel "OK" about devoting the next 7 years of my life to furthering my education. I don't feel like I am putting my life on hold to be a doctor. I'm going to live my life WHILE I pursue becoming a doctor.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Seriously. Do we really have to be subjected to this type of bigoted drabble every time we open a thread? I mean we all know every American who is not a doctor, lawyer, or accountant is low IQ, and lacking personal drive or value of life.

Enough already.

If you re-read my post, you'll see that nowhere did I say anything about low-IQ people "lacking personal drive or value of life." And if you know my posting history, you know I don't have much regard for doctors, lawyers, or accountants. I assume the reason the mere mention of IQ offends you so much is that you buy the false egalitarianism which is the reigning belief of our society, that all people have equal capabilites at birth and that anyone can be a genius with the right upbringing. What I'm saying is that some people are not intelligent enough to enter the professions of the cognitive elites, and a just society would have jobs for those people to do, to enable them to be productive citizens. But I shouldn't have even mentioned IQ, because my main point was not that we need jobs for non-cognitive-elite-level people to do but that we need to learn to rely on ourselves to get our manual labor done instead of thinking we can rely on an infinite supply of immigrants to do it for us. If for no other reason than that there is not an infinite supply of immigrants.

Good post. Its posts like Tris' that show how sad it is that some people think what they do somehow defines who they are. Its just a small little portion of who you are, well sadly in some people it actually is who they are, and that makes them miserable. Enter Tris.

And yet pre-meds, med students, residents, and physicians post every day on SDN about how medicine is a calling, how it does define you and what an honor and privilege it is to be defined by such a noble and wonderful and fulfilling profession. Why don't you go shoot some of them down? Being a medical student doesn't define who I am, and that's the problem--it's supposed to; you can't get through this without allowing it to define you. I have refused to allow it to define me and that is exactly why I am miserable; because I'm now in a place where I don't belong.

 

[scurred09]

Become a CRNA, and regret that decision for the rest of your life. Trust me...I have seen it...
Edit: If being a doctor is not your ultimate career goal, dont go for it. However, if it is...you have to follow your dream. People or kids face adversities in their lives THAT THEY HAVE TO OVERCOME . There is not a specific amount of hours that one have to spend with their kids. You have to concentrate on doing your best for them. Some people spent 4 hours a day with their kids, and other spend 10 hours with them. Do we have formula to know which of these two parents do a better parenting job. Nobody can answer that... People have the ability to adapt... There are many people who are working two jobs and still have lovely families... At the end , I believe if your ultimate career goal is to become a doctor, you have to go for it because you dont want to make the same mistake that myself and many other people make.

At what expense do you follow your dreams? What if you are done as an FP doc at the age of 40 with 200k debt? Is it now worth it pursuing this medical dream? To me, Hell ma fuk ken NO! If I was post doc at 30 then yes. To each his own and sometime we have to play the cards that we are dealt. I would be 40 regardless but I don't want to spend my 30's in school and stressing out. The 20's and 30's are the best years of a human being life.

 

[demayette]

At what expense do you follow your dreams? What if you are done as an FP doc at the age of 40 with 200k debt? Is it now worth it pursuing this medical dream? To me, Hell ma fuk ken NO! If I was post doc at 30 then yes. To each his own and sometime we have to play the cards that we are dealt. I would be 40 regardless but I don't want to spend my 30's in school and stressing out. The 20's and 30's are the best years of a human being life.

I know people who are in their 40s making 60k/year and they are very happy with their salaries. Assuming a FP doc make an average170k/year. After taxes/social security/medicare/insurance/401k ect.., that doc will take home around 100k/year. If that doc use 30k/year to pay his/her loan, he/she will be debt free in about 10 years (200k debt). That doc will be netting 70k/year, which is $ 5,833/month. I believe that a lot people would be happy netting that kind of salary. Therefore, I think it's worth it pursuing medicine at the age of 40 if it will provide you a sense of fulfillment.

 

[she woolf]

No, I mean everyone.


No, you missed the point. Nasrudin implied that since the Freakonomics authors allegedly showed that more education for mothers correlates with "success" of their children, it's good for more women to attain higher levels of education (like the OP) because then their children will be more "successful," and of course having more "successful" children must be a good thing. To which I said, "not so fast; whether it's good for more people to be 'successful' depends on the definition of 'success.'" If "success" just means becoming a doctor, lawyer, or accountant instead of a plumber or carpenter, then I don't agree that our society needs more "success," since we already have a glut of service industry and need to start making things again or our economy will be unsustainable. So I don't agree that women should become doctors rather than CRNA's if that means their children will be more likely to become upper-middle-class pencil-pushers. Which means, in a sense, I suppose I do think women should forgo education to raise future plumbers.


Glad I can pepper your day with humor. My mission in life is to make people smile.


Where on earth did you get that idea? I've gained a reputation for hijacking threads with my negative thoughts about medical school. I've publicly posted the words "I hate medicine" on this very forum. What gave you the impression that I believe medicine is on a higher plane than other endeavors? Most pre-meds, and many medical students, seem to think that, but not I. You're damn right being a plumber is better than being a doctor.


Only if you think that I have been hiding the fact that I went into medicine for the wrong reasons, and am afraid to admit this; but in fact I have been broadcasting this around here for months.


Again, you totally misread me. It's the other way around. I believe being "carpenters, plumbers, and manufacturing technicians" is superior to being "doctors, lawyers, and accountants."

Damn why did I have to happen upon a gender role debate...

Seriously I think you're too biased to advise this girl seeing as how you regret your own choice...

OP 1 kid is doable [much harder on yourself] and will prolly keep you husband satisfied and if you make him do nighttime feedings he'll back off of more kids

go with your passion and don't do what someone else wants you to cuz you'll resent that person in the long run

who am I kidding you prolly already made your choice