CUBA TRAINING

[milljea]

Can you give me your ideas on medical school in Cuba and the chance or getting residency in the US

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Meercat]

I just got back from visiting my family Cuba a few weeks ago. My cousin goes to medical school in Cuba so I can give you a my secondhand impressions. As far as I know medical school in Cuba lasts six years with students entering straight from high school. Cuban doctors are very highly regarded by most of the international medical establishment, which I assume has partly to do with excellent training. There are a few Americans who train in the Cuban international medical school. As far as grading goes, it is pretty similar to this country except that the system uses numbers (1-5, 5 being the best) instead of letters. Residencies in Cuba get a little tricky, however. As I understand it, if you graduate from medical school and want to have a family medicine oriented practice, you do not need any extra training. Family medicine in Cuba focuses more on preventative medicine. If you want to go into a specialty, like surgery, you have to score very, very high in all of your classes. I am not sure whether they have "board" exams or not.

As far as any personal impressions that I got: there are many simlilarites between stressed out students in the US and Cuba as far as academics go. Added stresses for Cuban students come from lack of access to recent books, information, and school materials (My cousin was studying from this old, ratty microbiology book from about 1965, and did not have enough notebooks or pens to work with). So if anyone out there is going to Cuba and meeting any med students please think about bringing and giving away school supplies and new medical books (as well as medicine, shoes, clothing, oh gosh the list goes on and on!!). More stress coes from the fact that transportation in Cuba is very limited , so getting to and from medical school is a chore (my cousin hitchhikes twice a day to get to and from school). Plus, most students still live with their parents, grandparents, siblings, cousins, you name it. Let me tell you, it is really hard to study when the house is full of people who cant understand that you need quiet time to study. Anyway, I really admire Cuban doctors and students because they can do so much with so little. Hope that helps!

 

[pirulo]

cuba is a totalitarian communist third world country, hundreds of thousands of people have died either in firing squads fighting the government in the revolution, or on rafts trying to escape that hell hole. why anyone in their right minds would want to go there to study medicine is beyond me. Cuban medical education or medical care is immensely substandard not only to that in the u.s. but in the entire world. I have met many cuban doctors, and yes, medical education in cuba before castro was very similar to that in the u.s., but since communism took over the university 40 years ago, there is no comparison. the cuban government is good at one thing, putting out propaganda to mislead the world, but don't be fooled; going to cuba to study medicine is not bad just because it's a poor country, it's bad because you will have to endure enourmous oppression and violation of your human rights every day that you are there, for all of six years.
pirulo
umdnj-som 2004

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'll move this over to the International Forum for ya!

 

[Dreamer]

Originally posted by pirulo:
•cuba is a totalitarian communist third world country, hundreds of thousands of people have died either in firing squads fighting the government in the revolution, or on rafts trying to escape that hell hole. why anyone in their right minds would want to go there to study medicine is beyond me. Cuban medical education or medical care is immensely substandard not only to that in the u.s. but in the entire world. I have met many cuban doctors, and yes, medical education in cuba before castro was very similar to that in the u.s., but since communism took over the university 40 years ago, there is no comparison. the cuban government is good at one thing, putting out propaganda to mislead the world, but don't be fooled; going to cuba to study medicine is not bad just because it's a poor country, it's bad because you will have to endure enourmous oppression and violation of your human rights every day that you are there, for all of six years.
pirulo
umdnj-som 2004•

Do not want to be inpolite, but if hundred of thousands have died every year, how much people there are or were to begin with? Few millions or billions?

My point is do not sidetruck to teh same propaganda methods the Cuban goverment uses.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Just a short note...

Please do a search on this topic in which I provided a statement from the US government regarding the presence of Americans in Cuba.
If you are an American citizen the embargo restricting you from spending money in Cuba still exists. Therefore, IMHO, attending medical school in Cuba would prove difficult. I have no information on the match rate for students graduating from Cuban schools but would imagine that all else being equal you would not have anymore problem than other IMGs, given a wise application procedure.

 

[pirulo]

thousands of people died in the firing squads in the cuban revolution, this is a fact, not heresay, i have personally met the family of those executed in the revolution when castro took power. many more have died trying to leave the island, in 1994 anlone 5000 refugees were intercepted by the coast guard, how many others do you think didn't quite make it. what do you think the chances are to make it? this is not propaganda, this is the reason why i am here writing to you from the united states, because my parents picked up and left that country so that I would be able to say whatever I wanted, to say the very least. your comment was not inpolite, your comment was insulting, and extremely ignorant.
FYI there are 11 million people in cuba, and i did not say that hundreds of thousands died every year, I said hundreds of thousands have died either in the revolution or trying to leave, that's a timespan of 40 yrs, I guess there aren't enough dead for that to be a deterrant for you to go to medical school there. hey, more power to you.

 

[Mr. So-So]

pirulo,
has it ever entered your mind that maybe..just maybe your parents were the bad guys?

that maybe the cubans were tired of being exploited by people like your parents.

if i were cuban-american, and if i actually had love for my homeland and people... i'd stop being spiteful and do everything that i could to end that crippling economic embargo...so that my fellow cubans ,would not HAVE to pointlessly suffer.


let it go dude..it's been 40 years.

 

[pirulo]

i don't even think that that posting deserves an answer, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, complete and absolute ignorance, never the less, i just can't resist. My parents were normal people living in a politically unstable country, what fault did they have? The government before castro, Batista, was not roses either, as a matter of fact, many people, my parents included, supported castro's revolution, but no one knew that he was a communist dictator and assassin. He took everything my parents had put together for generations, just imagine not being able to see the house where your parents grew up, that kinda gets to you after a while. My grandfather was imprisioned for going to church on Sunday, and when he said that he would go back to church as soon as they let him out, they said that if he did they would take his daughter and put her in an insane assylum. My father's college buddies died yelling "long live Christ" in front of the firing squads of el che guevara, castro's right hand at the time, and this was televised. I really could go on and on, it's like trying to summise the hollocaust in one posting. So no, it has never crossed my mind, that when my parents decided to leave everything and go seek freedom, not only for themselves, but particularly for their children, that they were the bad guys. Have you ever met somebody that is a product of that revolution, someone that has never seen cuba without castro? Well I have, often, and they are not normal, they, and yes i can generalize here because it is a very common and self admitted trait, are all very suspicious, broken down people, and even if they are 40 yrs old, they are still very indoctrinated into that system, it is very hard for them to break out of that. But hey, this is the u.s. , you are definitely entitled to your own opinion, try saying this in cuba. Furthermore, the embargo is definitely a policy that i endorse. If you have a 'nation' like the one i just described, and you, 'the u.s.' decides that you don't want to do business with them, not necessarily as a sanction, just as a matter of principle, then don't, that's it, you don't have to do business with anyone that you don't want. When castro took over he seized all u.s. property in cuba, that's how the embargo got started, you just can't trust this guy. More over, if we did trade with them, and cuba got rich, you can bet your bottom dollar that not one of my relatives over there would see a penny of that money. But all of castro's buddies would be living the highlife. I don't condemn people that send money to their families that are starving over there, but there should be a law to prohibit even that. It's not as easy as it sounds buddy, learn a little before you go insulting somebody, because, those are big words that you said to me, I wonder if you have the 'cojones' to say them face to face.
let it go? how come the jews don't let it go? and hitler is dead, and has been condemned, castro is still in power ninety miles away from the coast of this country, a little hard to let it go.

 

[Mr. So-So]

Unfortunately, if you would read your own post, you would see that my comment about "being spiteful" is valid.
I can empathize with your story.
This is personal for you and I can understand your emotion.
However, it is key that you MUST be able to see the other side.. most importantly, you need to be able to simply question… just ask "why?"

do you know the cliche` "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"?
it's true.
Ernesto Guevara may be the devil personified to you. But "Che" in the eyes of many Hispanic youths, he IS a hero. Personally, Guerrilla Warfare was one of the more motivating and enlightening books I've ever read.

I am a little skeptical on your knowledge of recent Cuban History. You are aware that Batista overthrew Prio(?) in the early 50s, he was(became) a dictator? The Cuban Constitution was strapped. The batista gov. was still cozy with the US, mind you. Large AMERICAN compamies made large profits off of cuba's natural resource's while the Cuban people remained dirt poor. That's naked capitalism in all its glory. IMO, Batista was merely a puppet for US corporations.
It was a POPULAR revolt that overthrew Batista.. Castro's M267 numbered only a few thousand.
During the Batista regime, there was no education and zero health care.

I'm not condoning any of Castro's alleged human rights abuses but I think Cuba's education and Health care programs speak for themselves.
Consider:
infant mortality rate-12 per 1,000 live births (one of the lowest in the world)
Life expectancy-73.5 years (10 years higher than ecuador)
illiteracy rate- 4% (600% decrease in <30 years)
..again, this was done during an economic blockade. (ie no world bank, IMF help)

The embargo is hurting the common man and woman of Cuba…not Castro. Congress is eager to vote for sanctions on Cuba, yet reluctant to vote for sanctions on China. It's become a joke. Your embargo is nothing but a dressed-up tool of economic imperialism.
It's no secret that the embargo was imposed because Cuba failed to compensate american companies and individuals.
And about compensation, you ARE aware that companies from countries that did NOT fight again the rebels..were compensated.

ok, to return your less-than-subtle jab, I find it highly hypocritical for any Cuban expatriate to talk to ANYONE about having "cojones". Obviously, if my dear friends in miami actually had a pair, they would be IN cuba fighting Castro instead of running (whoops I meant "seeking freedom"
..(to) the US.


good day.

[QB]
I believed in god; but when I saw so great an inequality between men, I acknowledged that it was not God who created man, but man who created God. And I discovered that those who want their property to be respected have an interest in preaching the existence of paradise and hell, and in keeping the people in ignorance.

--Santa Caserio

 

[pirulo]

now i realize where you're coming from, I am not going to waste much of my time replying to you this time, this one will be short. You are obviously either communist yourself, and i wouldnt' be surprised if you do have connections with the cuban government, or just an extremely gullible person that has bought into that whole line of crap. The bottom line here is that although Batista did do a lot of wrong things in his time, he was elected, at least the second time, and castro never has been for forty years. and all that crap you said about the cubans being dirt poor when he was in power is just not true. the cubans are dirt poor today, in 1959 the cuban dollar was worth more than the american dollar. The only good thing about health care and education in cuba today is that they are free, but I wouldn't want them even if they paid me for them, and trust me, the cuban citizens today do a lot more than pay for them. So go back to reading the das capital or whatever else you do for fun, but buddy, communism doesn't work, and a lot of good people have died fighting it, and they sure did have a lot more cojones than you and i put together.

 

[Dreamer]

I am sorry, I misread and you REALLY were tralking about hundreds of thousands executed in 40 years not every year.

However, you call for the law not prohibiting people to send money to Cuban relatives living there. Do you really think Castro will suffer? No, the people will, just look at Iraq with sunctions. Saddam is doing quite well, people, Well I doubt it. You conveniently mentioned Jews and Holocaust, you see I am Jew myself, I do not like nazi and actually any kind of nationalism. Does it it mean I have to see every ethnical German as a personal enemy? I really don't think so and I do not do it. I came from the USSR and I know something about communism myself for I grew there. Communism is evil, though teh idea suggested by Marx was great but it was application sucks, but there were 20 mln members of the Communist Party because that was the way to the education and so on. Do I hate all of them, no, because I would hate a lot of my friends and some of my family members. You on the other hand hate Castro SO MUCH that you transfer your hate to EVERYBODY, you are ready to punish people either for living at their homeland and trying to make it through or for the support of the system, which some of tehm sincere believe to be the best.
The bottom line, I guess teh question asked by Mr. So-So, WHY? Why can't you see teh complexity of the issue, the 3D of it rather than 1D

 

[Mr. So-So]

wow!
you're fast!


no dude..i'm not your enemy..
..i'm not a commie, or some capitalist.
i'm just me...i have no politics.




remember there are TWO(at least) sides to everything.

concerning Batista "elections" as you call them,..remember batista never had an election he wasnt guaranteed to win..

good day.

 

[pirulo]

one more thing, it's really easy to be a communist when you're a dentist living in the richest country in the world. why don't you go live in cuba, and see how you like it, see if you can ask the whys about the government over there, see if you could ever disagree with that regime. by the way, i do know there are many young people out there, that are rebellious and due to ignorance end up idolizing el che, but he was an assassin and he did most of his killing in cold blood, not as a bloodshed of the revolution. you ever heard the saying: he who isn't a communist when he's twenty doesn't have a heart, yet he who is a communist when he's thirty doesn't have a brain? how old are you?

 

[Mr. So-So]

really dude, i'm a peaceful brother.
and i AM on your side..
i just think the cuban nationals are going about things the wrong way..
Castro's old..right?
he's not gonna be there forever.

cubans view that miami based "mafia" as a bunch of loonies...and unfortunately b/c of the elian disaster...so does much of the world.
...i'd think a better plan would be to reach out to cuba...offer that olive branch.
(at the very least it would improve that image)

me?
i'm still in my early 20s..so i still got almost a decade left before i have to be greedy.



one of the surgery residents at a lab i worked at..happened to be a cuban-american from little havana.


man, those were the days..
..spending all day debating politics and deciding which s. american country had the most beautiful women..
lol

Originally posted by pirulo:
•
you ever heard the saying: he who isn't a communist when he's twenty doesn't have a heart, yet he who is a communist when he's thirty doesn't have a brain? how old are you?•

 

[pirulo]

dreamer, the previous post was addressed to mr. so so, it's a little dated, you guys didn't give me time to even reload my page. I do not see every cuban as an enemy, in miami the exile community does everything to help those who arrive from cuba. I don't have anything against the cubans that are in the island either, but obviously castro does. I do have hate for castro, i do have a lot of hate for that government and for what it has done to my 'homeland,' and i commend you, as a jew, for getting over your own hate against those who have hurt your people, but i'm not quite there yet. Bottom line is, i do think that the money that goes over there gets to the wrong hands, and that the people in the states are actually struggling economically to make that happen, and i do think there should be some legislation to prevent this, but this is a minor point here. One more thing, i don't think there was anything 'great' about marx's theory, in paper or in practice, if you read the das capital, or the communist manifesto like our friend mr. so so does every night before he goes to sleep, you will see that he calls for oppression of the people and a bloody revolution, that's on paper, and it sounds pretty bad to me.
pirulo

 

[Mr. So-So]

lol

you're too much dude.

peace.

Originally posted by pirulo:
•... if you read the das capital, or the communist manifesto like our friend mr. so so does every night before he goes to sleep, ...
pirulo•

 

[pirulo]

by the way, how is it that you posted on the dental forum under the topic dr. kroeger, that you have a 25+ year career in dentistry if you're only 20 yrs old?

 

[Mr. So-So]

no no no no

read it again..
i posted that "i found this helpful..so now i'll post"
i posted his "advice to dental students".
..dr. kroeger is a dentist in cincinnati
(not me)




ps
im not 20...just early 20s
(no sin in keeping a tiny bit of anonymity)

 

[pirulo]

my bad, i guess you still have another ten years to wake up then...

 

[DocR]

To: Milljea
I am a medical student who studies in Cuba. I am entering my third year in September.
I would recommend Cuba for medical studies, because it has a very impressive, better yet one of the best medical systems in the world!
Okay.....so they dont have the latest technology, which really dosent make them substandard as on of the members on this board said; because even without the technology they have excellent succes rates.
The only reason theey dont have high technology is thanks to the silly embargo that we the United States has put on them.
I am an American Citizen that resides in Fort Lauderdale , Florida and went to Cuba to study because of my grandmothers strong convictions about it being one of the best medical systems and also with her fear that college in the U.S would make me even more party animal than I really am!
Honestly speaking their form of study is excellent both in content and in methods; one of my problems was that of the material e.g textbooks, etc.....which has improved incredibly where new and improved material has been bought by the Cuban Government for the students.
I tell you all this info, not from a second hand source; but starit up "the real deal" because I study there!
There are about 100 U.S citizens studying there, the majority studying medicine.
I am not a communist ...not even in the least, but the story I heard about Cuba before I went there was horrifying, but my experience first hand there has proven me otherwise. And to tell you the truth it even surprises me I love it there!
But I do have my negatives about it..as with any other country in the world:
*There is no cable TV
*Communication to the U.S is expensive, a $10 calling card, gives you 2 minutes.
*Transportation is difficult, but not that difficult( I am a Lazy Person )
*There are no direct flights from the U.S to go there, so you will have to go thru Jamaica, Bahamas, Mexico,etc(which also caan act as a plus
*We get almost no vacactions.
except we get 1 day for Christamas, we get 1 week between semesters in February and we get 1 1/2 months of summer vacation.
*Lectures have an obligatory assistance policy, you are only allowed 20% absence.
*There are evaluations every or every other day.....which really drives your stress level to the roof

But all in all these negatives are nothing compared to the positives I have for studying there. When you are finished you will be a very rounded and disciplined doc....with knowledge and experience ver superior!
When you are finished you will receive your title M.D and then return to the U.S, where you will have to do USMLE(Board Exams).
residency should be pretty easy, since I have spoken to several faculties and hospital staff members, which reassured me there would be no problems what so ever!

So I wish the best of luck to anyone who will be going to study medicine in Cuba....
I think it is a great move towards your career!

DocR
p.s To: Pirulo
It is not a hell hole, you are speaking like an ignorant person which I hope you are not, but I cannot blame as your influenced by byass propaganda by the U.S govt....I was once like you until I went there and learned that there are always two sides to a story.
So I implore you to be a little less narrow minded and get your two sides of the story.
Thank you!

 

[oolong_wa]

Unites States has national policy for national interest, and it is to isolate Cuba, not engage it. When one accepts Cuban engagement, they are doing subversive act that undermines effort United States has taken through many years. Going to Cuba like this is going against American policy and is against America right now.

 

[Hirurg]

Cuba is just like Russia!
Check out some sites on the web about Russian school in St. Petersburg or Moscow...You will have a good idea.
Both have to have exellent English in order to participate in US match. Otherwise...both are exellent schooling systems, notwithstanding, lack of suplies.

 

[pirulo]

doc R,
you talk from your personal experience being a medical student in cuba, assuming this is true, i talk from my own personal experience knowing dozens of doctors who have graduated from cuban medical schools and are trying to make it in the U.S. I feel kinda bad putting down your school, but if someone is really considering going there, I feel I have to say what I know. I met half a dozen medical students from cuba taking a board review course in miami, and they were all struggling, having to learn material for the first time. I also know of many other doctors who studied in cuba and came to the u.s., only one of them passed the boards, and that was on her sixth attempt. From my understanding, medicine in cuba is very warm and compassionate, and my criticism is not addressed to the lack of technology or textbooks, I am sure you can make ends meet if you are determined. However, I have talked to many people in my time, from BOTH SIDES, and I have heard MANY horror stories. There are many schools in the world that american citizens can go to, guadalajara, dominican republic, etc... without having to live in a dictatorship that oppresses it's people. You can choose to ignore what goes on around you, you can choose to romanticize communism, you may not be a communist, I really don't care, but it is there, and a lot of people are suffering. How do you explain a country with a leader that has not run for office in forty years, how do you explain the enourmous immigration, the thousands of people that risk their lives to leave the island?
About the embargo, Cuba has the whole world to trade with, why is it that the fact that it cannot trade with the U.S. the only reason for its poverty?
About the propaganda, who do you think that puts out more misleading information, a leader that took over a nation under false pretenses, never holds an election, and then indoctrinates its children, or the u.s., which although not perfect, has not reached cuba's ankles in terms of manipulation and misleading of it's people.
You say I should look at both sides of the issue, I think you, or anyone that is actually thinking of this, should do the same.
I know a lot of my previous posts may have seemed angry, and spitefull, but this is a very emotional topic for me, this issue is not just something to think about for me, it defines me, and who I am, so yes, I am inclined to write with emotions more so than with reason at times. However, if someone that reads this is actually considering this as a viable alternative, think about the environment that you will have to live in, and that you will be supporting.
One more thing, since you are a medical student in cuba, can you give us some of the specifics as to how you go about paying for tuition? particularly since this is free for cuban citizens? just curious...
either way, i hope it works out for you, but look around a little before you leave there with your degree.
pirulo

 

[DocR]

What are half a dozen med students when Cuba has 21 medical faculties in that small island.
They are having problems! Look How many graduates from Med School in the U.S have problems too!
You are basing your view off 6 med students you met , who speak spanish, not english, which puts a whole new perspective on things.
How do you know they are suffering.......if you have not been there!.... let me tell you something most of those Cubans you see they are alot better off than U.S citizens in this country! Strange but TRUE
The Majority of the american films show a upper middle class life with functional families, Nice house, a garage with two cars, a nice garden with picketed fencing.
But how much other american citizens live under horrible conditions, the drugs the violence, the this the that.
I can safely say when it comes to Cuba...I dont ahve to worry about the drugs, the violence, the Kidnapps, etc.

Also Cuba cannot trade with all the other countries. The U.S have a policy in which they penalize other countries that trade with them and with Cuba. e.g Lets say Dominican rep. trades with the U.S, but also does trade with Cuba, our govt. penalizes the Dom.Rep by decreasing trade with them or cutting it all of together. Now a country like Dom.Rep and all the others need the trade they obtain from us the U.S( Super Power)....so they choose U.S or Cuba...and its a clear chouce.
So what does Cuba do? They trade with the countries that are not afraid of the U.S,
e.g China,Russia, England, Italy, etc.
Now when we speak of a poverty stricken country we speak about Haiti, Countries of Africa,etc.
Cuba is not a poverty stricken country.
They have free medicine and free education.....which all are guaranteed!
So there we wont find bouts of dengue, Cholera, and all those other diseases..as a matter of fact Cuba have their doctors on missions in all the desperate parts of the world that need health care!
They have their doctors in Brazil and all of south and central america, some islands of teh caribbean, All of Africa, Some parts of Asia e.g Mongolia
I mean for a country to offer help like this to other countries in compromising situations while they themselves are in a compromise....I mean that speks for itself...and trust me they are doing wonders in those countries who without a doubt appreciate it!

About the tuition...its like this:
Cuba offers scholarships to U.S citizens....or if u choose to pay its
1st year med $7,500
2nd year med $7,500
3rd year med $8,500
4th & 5th year med $8,500
6th year med $10,000
These prices are quoted in U.S dollars

 

[Mr. So-So]

a nicely relevant article about fidel.


link: http://www.observer.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,528954,00.html

 

[pirulo]

yes cuba is wonderful, free medicine, free schooling free rent, free food, man what a humanitarian place to live, they even send their 'doctors' over to 'poor' countries to help out. yet, fidel won't hold an election for forty years because he's afraid that he won't be elected, hmmmm. you don't have to worry about crime, well of course not, they put people to death there for saying a lot less than what i've said in this post, i wonder what they'd do if you steal an apple. tell you what, i think i'd rather be poor, and still be able to express my self, and apparently so do hundreds of thousands of cubans that have left the island with all those wonderful things that you described, so they can find just a little freedom. about the doctors they send out, and about the 'penalties' you say the u.s. government imposes on those who trade with cuba: PROPAGANDA from the cuban government, and totally untrue!!! now who's the one that has to look at both sides of the issue. just because he sends doctors to poor countries doesn't mean they're good, med schools send completely incompetent med students to hospitals all the time, and they take them, hey, free scut, who cares. by the way, i said i knew of some cuban doctors over here that are having trouble passing the boards. What numbers do you have that you can trust that say what percentage of cuban doctors pass u.s. boards? I think i'll trust my personal experience over cuban government numbers, even though mine are not statistically significant. Here are some more statistically insignificant numbers for you, I have met a lot of people in my life, and it just so happens that the only illiterate people that I have ever met are products of castro's cuba, coincidence I guess right? Because this just couldn't be considering that castro says that cuba has one of the highest literacy rates in the world, but he couldn't be lying could he? I'm gonna check out mr. so so's article now, i'm sure this will be fun.
pirulo

 

[pirulo]

interesting article, no too biased either way, although some points I think are worth discussing. For example:
"With democratic politics at an end, Castro set about planning an armed uprising to galvanise resistance"
Interesting he would be upset that democracy was at an end when he has never held an election don't you think?
"once the bullets start flying they rarely turn to the right."
I just though this one was cool.
"He also had the showman's instinct for propaganda. At one point, he arranged for the veteran New York Times journalist Herbert L. Matthews to be smuggled into the Sierra Maestra and hoodwinked Matthews into thinking the rebel forces were numerous and well armed."
I see he was good at this since back in the day, i still hear of how thousands of people go onto the streets in protest against castro in cuba, and he has a few of his guys to stand in front of a camera yelling something against the u.s. and turns the whole thing around, clever isn't he?

"the executions, presided over by Guevara"
I have made this point in other posts, about guevara being a cold blooded assasin, just nice to see some corroboration.

"Castro knew, if he went he would probably be killed"
Referring to guevarra, this is another interesting corroboration to my notion that not only did castro know, but that he had guevara murdered because he was gaining too much popularity and castro was afraid he would be the one to take over.
"Many of those who have predicted his demise have been bewildered by his political longevity, often because they underestimated his popular support. That support has been said to be falling for more than 40 years now, yet still Castro hangs on. "
Last, but not least, what support? if he had support he would hold elections, he has hung on all these years by the iron fist!!!
I know I have mentioned this many times in my posts, but for some reason, i think it's a pretty important one, don't you?
I don't know, mr. so so, what your intentions were of sending this article, but I knew all about what was written there. Castro did have support when he was at La Sierra, my father was one of the ones who took weapons to the rebels. Cuba was very unstable at the time, and a lot of people wanted batista out, but no one wanted communism, and catro, as the article says, never disclosed his intentions. So yes, it was a popular revolution, so was batista's first coup "la revolucion the los sargentos", but he was elected president at least once in his life, something that castro, with all his 'wonderful accomplishments' has never been able to say.
In fact, castro has ran for office a couple of times, once for student council president in law school, and another time for congress for the orthodox party, nomination he only obtained through the political ties of his wife at the time, whom of course, is exiled in miami, along with his daughter. Of course, he lost both times. Yet he's been in power longer than most politicians would even aspire.
pirulo

 

[Robb1818]

Alright, Alright...enough already!!!

Sounds to me as if "Pirulo" is jealous that he's not going to med school on a nice, warm tropical island...instead he's stuck in NJ!

j/k...see ya in class

 

[Meercat]

pirulo-
Look- I really do understand in large part where you are coming from. As a Cuban-American I too feel that the Castro's regime has destroyed millions of lives over several generations. But is the answer really destroying more lives by upholding an embargo with a country ninety miles away?
Just so you understand my perspective- My mother came to this country as a under the Peter Pan Project when she was just fourteen years old all alone. Her parents, brother and sister and the rest of her family stayed behind in Cuba. To prevent my family from starving, we have had to provide for them in varoius ways that I am sure that you are aware of. I realize that you feel that we should not have done this because it only perpetuates the stability of the Castro regime. Point taken. But maybe we should try some realism instead of emotion.The fact is is that Castro is not going anywhere until he dies. No embargo by the US is going to alter that. Sorry but it is true. After that his brother may or may not replace him- we just dont know. In the meantime, would you prefer that we cease providing for my family for a miami-based political agenda (That has not and will not work anyway?)? You seem to rely a lot on personal stories to make your arguements. No problem. But there are more Cuban stories out there than the ones that you experience. Mijito- miami is a small place in comparison with the rest of the US. It sounds like you need to talk to more Cuban Americans that are not as influenced by a very vocal, hurt, and aging mob. Besides- how can you make all of these grandoise statements of the Cuban experience when you have never even been there? I am not justifying Castro by any means. But the situation is a bit more complicated than you are making it out to be.

 

[pirulo]

i only mention personal stories to help those who have no clue, obviously not yourself, understand the issue, besides that's all we got, stories from people who have been there, there's nothing else out there that has any more credibility in this issue. about the embargo, this is not miami based, this was done by kennedy, a democrat, in the sixties due to the fact that cuba took over u.s. property. does it work? no, has it worked? no, will it work? no, i'm not saying it will... it's just a matter of principle, you don't do business with thieves and murderers, it's not a strategy to get castro off, it's just a matter of values. About giving money to those in cuba, read my post again, i don't condemn those who do, my family has sent money there too, and so would i if i had any, money that is. I was just making a small point, that i don't think that should be allowed either, if castro has put his country in poverty he's responsible for that, instead, he benefits from people like your family and mine, who out of love for their cuban relatives sends money over. that's that.
and cuba was doing quite well economically before castro, with the largest middle class in all of latin america, a completely self sufficient country, and as i mentioned before, with the cuban dollar being worth more than the american one.

got some more info on the embargo for the 'cuban med student' that says that the u.s. puts penalties on countries that trade with cuba. It is not true: there is a law, that has never been put in effect, and was just postponed again by pres. bush, that says that companies, not countries, which are benefiting from u.s. property in cuba that was stolen by castro will be penalized. Again, makes a lot of sense to me, if you are renting out hotel rooms in a hotel that belongs to a u.s. company, and that was stolen by castro, then why should the u.s. do business with you, again, dishonest.

One more thing, referring to the exile community in miami, as a mob or a mafia, especially if you yourself are cuban american is completely absurd and especially unjustified. A bunch of old guys that have been fighting peacefully for 40 years to make their homeland free again, and a new wave of young people that are searching for their roots and realize the injustices, are not a mob, and it's funny that a cuban american would be using such castro terminology.

your mom should have some interesting views on the elian issue since she was a peter pan, but don't really want to get into that much, i think we have enough to discuss already.

pirulo

p.s. yo rob1818, what r u talking about? this is tropical new jersey isnt it?

 

[pirulo]

by the way, amazing article on the other cuba posting about the cuban doctors that castro sends out to other countries, he makes money off this!!! amazing, you can say anything you want about the guy, but he's a brain!!! if anyone is interested the other posting mentioned above has documented and referenced information on castro's indoctrination of medical students in cuba, and of the completely misleading propaganda he puts out in terms of his statistics. As i said you can't trust anything he says, i'd rather listen 'stories' from those who have lived through it. thanks a lot for that link, great article!!!

pirulo
http://www.studentdoctor.net/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=000380

 

[Meercat]

One more thing, referring to the exile community in miami, as a mob or a mafia, especially if you yourself are cuban american is completely absurd and especially unjustified. A bunch of old guys that have been fighting peacefully for 40 years to make their homeland free again, and a new wave of young people that are searching for their roots and realize the injustices, are not a mob, and it's funny that a cuban american would be using such castro terminology.
Let me just clarify something and then I will stop this obviously circular discussion we got ourselves into. I did not mean that Cuban-Americans in miami are a mob like "the Godfather" or anything. I meant the word "mob" to describe a whole lot of people who feed off of the emotions of each other to work themselves into a frenzy. You have got to admit that miami cubans are pretty vocal and do overdo it sometimes. The voices of other Cuban American communities get drowned out in the face of the "peaceful old guys" you describe. The opinions and emotions of Cuban Americans that the general public sees seem to be rooted only in Miami. I just wanted to give another insight to the forum that was not so one sided and still was a Cuban American perspective. To imply that this means that I am using the political jargon of Castro to support my insights was just a way for you to easily dismiss me. Shooting from the hip never helps a discussion. That is the major problem with the miami political machine as a whole ( which is the major force behind continuing the embargo. Kennedy began it and the miami agenda is keeping it).
You seem like a very intelligent and passionate person, which I appreciate. Yet I think that if you distanced yourself a bit from the emotion that miami perpetuates you might see that it is okay to be a Cuban-American who disagrees with some parts of how miami\Congress is handling Cuba.

 

[pirulo]

point well taken, sorry if i misunderstood where you were coming from. I am a miami cuban american, and i am quite proud of how vocal we are, i think it's an important attribute to have when there is so much ignorance and misleading information out there.
pirulo

 

[TechGuy]

I have been following this forum for several days now and what is amazing to me is how easily people can be convinced by a "dictator" that all is great in his country. I used quotes around dictator to point out the fact that freedom of speech is not a reality in Cuba! Let me begin by pointing out that countries like: Haiti (Cedras), Chile (Pinochet), Philippines (Marcos), and Zaire (Mobutu), just to name a few, have fought to remove dictators who have ruined the country in one way or another. Then you turn around and look at Cuba and say it's the embargo's fault! What exactly do you expect the outcome to be if it were removed, I ask? If Cuba does send out doctors to ‘poor' countries and fights wars in Angola, in the name of communism, why doesn't it feed its people more than a few pounds of rice a month per person! Why are they living the way they live?

Do you honestly believe that the press or any statistics that Cuba has printed out about how ‘GREAT' things are there has any validity whatsoever? If someone who has the power to change the past and the present in his own country and can make himself and his government look like heroes on paper for bringing a country such a Cuba to poverty, don't you think he would? The people there and like many who don't know any better in other countries believe what they read… "The Cuban ‘mob' took our Cuban son Elian hostage!" It's horrible, everyone around the world can't believe it…. Yet the injustice that boy goes through now or "deprogramming" as the Cubans like to call it, is what no one sees. The fact of the matter is he will probably grow up resenting the fact he did not stay in a country where he can be FREE to do as he pleases.

Why? I'll tell you why, because it's all lies! Castro gives speeches pointing the finger at the US saying we are the way we are because of them, yet he lives better than some of the wealthiest people in the US. Why don't you ask DocR, the Cuban med school student' who obviously has issues with his grammar, spelling and English which makes me question whether he ever attended a day of school in the US. Ask him how great it is to live in a country were young girls, 'gineteras', prostitute themselves, by the hundreds, just to eat and survive! He complains about having to fly through another country to get to Cuba! Ask him to tell you about the people who throw themselves on makeshift rafts into the sea in order to cross a 90-mile stretch of water to seek one thing, FREEDOM! Ask him what it's like to see majority of people driving cars from the fifties, not because they are luxurious but because it's all the government will allow them to have. Ask him to tell you about the infamous Cuban ‘black market' where everything is bought and sold in US dollars. Or the fact that a Cuban doctor who graduates with the highest honors makes about 450 Cuban pesos a month (exchange in black market is about 14 pesos to ONE US!).

The truth is you can get anything you want in Cuba right now just ask DocR. If he was born in the US and has US dollars he can walk into any store and get a bottle of Rum for 5 US dollars. That's 70 Cuban pesos…. You think about what that means to someone who makes 450 pesos a month. The choices for him are simple 60-70 pesos for rice and some beans or a bottle of rum. Sure it's easy for us to say without the embargo things will be better but the truth is they will be the same! Cubans can get any thing they want right now if they have US currency!

I am Cuban American , from the Miami "Mob" if you want to call us that. What our parents and relatives have gone through is hard for many to understand but it is a reality we live with everyday. Everything I tell you above I have heard and seen from my family who came in the 50's (people with close ties to Fidel's army and knew communism was the goal), 60-70's (freedom flights), 80's (Mariel), 90's(‘Balseros' rafters), and even today (smugglers bring them in speedboats). Its been 40 some odd years since Castro walked into power and changed the course of the country forever but we all have hope that the country were our roots and our heritage comes from will ONE DAY BE FREE!

The TechGuy from Ft Lauderdale....

 

[DocR]

Yet, Cuba's health record remains impressive, with infant-mortality rates that rival those of the United States (7.8 deaths per 1,000 live births in Cuba, compared with 7.2 deaths per 1,000 live births in the United States). It has eradicated diseases such as malaria that continue to plague the region.

 

[pirulo]

have you not read any of the 35 posts on this??? man!!! i thought this post was dead! as it has been mentioned repeatedly, and corroborated by a variety of publications cited on this post, cuba can say anything they want about their stats, but they have absolutely no credibility. They are masters of propaganda, have done so historically, and you have to be pretty gullible and ignorant about current events, and the history of cuba and the castro regime, to actually think that this poor excuse for a government can actually have outcomes comparable to those of the u.s.!!!
go take the mcats again, and try to get into a u.s. school, otherwise go learn about karl marx in a cuban medical school and then come back here and teach us how to keep our infant moratlity rates down, just don't hold your breath...