Dansko, Birkenstocks, orthotics???

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Jawfixer

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2005
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Ok, Just to be clear I am not trolling here DiabeticDr. Well, actually I am trolling for expertise.

I figure this is the best place to ask for opinions and I am hoping you all will have some since this is your area.

Which shoes (or orthotics) do you feel are the best for the everyday consumer w/o foot issues? Birks, Danskos, Ecco, Mephisto, tennis shoes...

I know a couple of other residents who got plantar fas wearing Danskos. Both were male, which may play into the mix. I know that Danskos are approved by the APA and leaving that aside what are your opinions?

Thanks,

Members don't see this ad.
 
Jawfixer said:
Ok, Just to be clear I am not trolling here DiabeticDr. Well, actually I am trolling for expertise.

I know a couple of other residents who got plantar fas wearing Danskos. Both were male, which may play into the mix. I know that Danskos are approved by the APA and leaving that aside what are your opinions?

Thanks,

First, plantar fasciitis is usually caused by a bone spure on the medial/plantar aspect of the calc. (Women and men have this problem.)

Second, the person should really be properly measured for the correct shoe size. Most people don't even know their correct shoe size.

Third, there are many shoes that may benefit the person. It really depends on the shape of the foot. Equinus? Midfoot? Rearfoot? How is the angle between the calc. and centerline of the tibia? What about the angle between the neck of the talus and the 1st MT? Still, some of the best have rocker bottom design to facilitate the transfer of weight from the heal to the forefoot during the stance phase. It may also help relieve pain associated with the rigid portion of the longitudinal arch.

Lastly, the person can always have the plantar pressures during their gait cycle evaluated, have the podiatric physician analyze the pressure distribution, and order some orthotics.

When I was in the army, I was on an ALL -Army force marching team that competed against other international teams. We marched 25 miles in ~ 5 hours and 15 min. Two different days, 25 miles apiece, in the Swiss Alps. During the 4 months of training, I saw many people who developed foot problems. Mostly because they attempted to march with new boots.

Why do you think those old shoes are so comfortable? Besides the fact that they don't have any material left to support the feet. Because the material has been stretched to fit the feet. The same fit can be obtained with properly designed orthotics.
 
PM2, you might want to research the cause of plantar fasciitis, I dont think it is caused by a bone spur. :)
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Jawfixer said:
Ok, Just to be clear I am not trolling here DiabeticDr. Well, actually I am trolling for expertise.

I figure this is the best place to ask for opinions and I am hoping you all will have some since this is your area.

Which shoes (or orthotics) do you feel are the best for the everyday consumer w/o foot issues? Birks, Danskos, Ecco, Mephisto, tennis shoes...

I know a couple of other residents who got plantar fas wearing Danskos. Both were male, which may play into the mix. I know that Danskos are approved by the APA and leaving that aside what are your opinions?

Thanks,

I have only wore Birks from your list. I love my birks I'm on my 3rd pair. But like PM2 said it depends on your foot and what is comfortable on you.

If my foot was measured it says I wear a 7.5 in womens. I have a wide (splay foot) and every koint is hypermobile so it will just get wider at this point I really wear a 9 in womens because of the wide foot.

My point is to find shoes that are comfortable on you feet. If you are reverting to tennis shoes, Nikes tend to be narrow, NB come in widths but over all are wider than nikes, I love Sacony they have a wide forefoot and narrow heel great for my little bit of metatarsus Adductus.

I have no oppinion on Asics, addidas (comfortable), ... anyothers.

just a side note: all those pathologies in my feet I just learned that i had last week. Up until then I thought my feet were perfect. (except for the clynodactyly of the DIPJ of my 4th toes BL) :laugh:
 
cg2a93 said:
PM2, you might want to research the cause of plantar fasciitis, I dont think it is caused by a bone spur. :)

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/987116429.html , MD

http://www.podiatrytoday.com/podtd/displayArticle.cfm?articleID=pod_200111f3&type=A , DPM

A very good internet article:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/990415ap/2200.html


Now, plantar faciitis is an inflammation caused by microscopic tears. Some people have bone spurs that may cause tears during the biomechanical functioning of the foot. With the latter stated, bone spurs don't always have to be present for plantar faciitis to occur. Therefore, I was wrong to use "usually" as I did above. Still, some researchers do believe that bone spurs may cause microscopic tears causing inflammation.

Sorry to use such a general term.

Thanks for correcting me cg2a93
 
In case anyone is unclear about the bone spur....

The bone spur is typically caused by the tight plantar fascia pulling on the calcaneus where it attaches.

Due to wolf's (sp?) law the tension on the bone causes bone growth and a spur appears.

It has been proven that the size of the spur and the amount of pain are not correlated. Some people have small spurs and huge pain.

It is the pull of the fascia that causes pain usually and not necessarily the spur. Tyically once the bone spur stops growing the pain stops. This is not always true.
 
krabmas said:
In case anyone is unclear about the bone spur....

The bone spur is typically caused by the tight plantar fascia pulling on the calcaneus where it attaches.

Due to wolf's (sp?) law the tension on the bone causes bone growth and a spur appears.

It has been proven that the size of the spur and the amount of pain are not correlated. Some people have small spurs and huge pain.

It is the pull of the fascia that causes pain usually and not necessarily the spur. Tyically once the bone spur stops growing the pain stops. This is not always true.

What journal article shows the proof? I would like to read it.
 
I don't think I have seen this in any journal articles. It just isn't that much of an issue. It is however a common misconception, shared by physicians and laymen alike. I can't tell you how many times I have had refered pts come in and tell me their PCM told them they had a bone spur and that is what is causing their pain.

I have looked at literally thousands of foot x-rays and can tell you that there is no correlation between spurs and pain. Lots of people with plantar fasciitis don't have spurs, and lots of people with spurs don't have plantar heel pain.

If you consider the pathological process it makes sense though. The bone spur is not the cause of the pain, but the stretching and pulling of the plantar fascia on its calcaneal insertion could easily cause an enthesopathy. So more likely the plantar fasciitis causes a bone spur rather than the other way around. The cause for bone spurs without plantar fasical pain is the same, except subclinical pain.

As far as shoes, wear what is comfortable. Different foot types may work better with different shoes, but trying to tell you one shoe that is going to work for everyone is futile. I wear Danskos, Birks, orthotics, a variety of boots and running shoes. Fit is important, get the right size. I have distinct preference for leather over synthetics, it tends to stretch and accomodate better with use. Synthetics don't and may cause pressure areas. Break out of the box a little. Most people think of shoe size as length and width. There is also a depth (or volume). This can be easily modified with inserts. Lots of other stuff could be said about finding a good shoe with good fit. Basically wear what is comfortable.
 
Great responses, thanks and I would like to here more opinions.

I typically wear birks (33 pairs) an they are great for my feet even after 40 hours in the hospital; yes the 30 hour rule does not always work perfectly. Anyway, there are times we go +24 standing in the OR during cancer recon cases and I was just wondering what benefit you guys might thinks orthotics could provide?

Are orthotics only good for people with foot/gait "issues"? I have been tested and I'm neutral, no sup or pro. What do you think?

Tell me more about what you know about orthotics.

Thanks
 
I agree efs, I would also like to add that in my experience a common underlying etiology of PF is simple weight gain more often with a pronated foot type.
 
There is absolutely NO correlation between calcaneal bone spurs and the causes plantar fasciitis. The spur might be the result of the plantar fascia pulling on the anterior aspect of the calcaneus but it's never the other way around. PF is a FUNCTIONAL abnormality, not an anatomical one (ie...bone spur does not cause PF)...
 
TIGER STYLE said:
There is absolutely NO correlation between calcaneal bone spurs and the causes plantar fasciitis. The spur might be the result of the plantar fascia pulling on the anterior aspect of the calcaneus but it's never the other way around. PF is a FUNCTIONAL abnormality, not an anatomical one (ie...bone spur does not cause PF)...

True. I did not articulate myself very well.

From what I have learned, pain on the medial/plantar portion of the foot may be caused by a bone spur or calcaneal exostosis. Therefore, some patients are wrongly diagnosed with plantar fasciitis when they actually have pain due calcaneal exostosis. Is this a true statement?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
PM2 said:
True. I did not articulate myself very well.

From what I have learned, pain on the medial/plantar portion of the foot may be caused by a bone spur or calcaneal exostosis. Therefore, some patients are wrongly diagnosed with plantar fasciitis when they actually have pain due calcaneal exostosis. Is this a true statement?

And over time a calcaneal exostosis is caused by the pull of the plantar fascia on its calcaneal insertion. So, early on with plantar fascitis you may not have a bone spur. If the pain is subclinical, over a period of years a bone spur may form, but the person never really had any significant symptoms, but had the same process occuring.

Surgically, a plantar fascial release without resection of the calcaneal exostosis can provide relief. Therefore, bone spur does not equal the cause of the symptoms.

(Some people are fixated on the bone spur on xray because someone told them that was the cause. For these people, if they see a postop xray and it still shows a spur, they think nothing was done. For this, some surgeons will remove the exostosis even though we know that has nothing to do with relieving the pain. )
 
efs said:
And over time a calcaneal exostosis is caused by the pull of the plantar fascia on its calcaneal insertion. So, early on with plantar fascitis you may not have a bone spur. If the pain is subclinical, over a period of years a bone spur may form, but the person never really had any significant symptoms, but had the same process occuring.

Surgically, a plantar fascial release without resection of the calcaneal exostosis can provide relief. Therefore, bone spur does not equal the cause of the symptoms.

(Some people are fixated on the bone spur on xray because someone told them that was the cause. For these people, if they see a postop xray and it still shows a spur, they think nothing was done. For this, some surgeons will remove the exostosis even though we know that has nothing to do with relieving the pain. )


Interesting. While shadowing, I have seen some very large spurs and some small spurs. I found it interesting that some patients didn't notice the spur at all, while some complained of pain; yet the pain didn't appear to be plantar fasciitis. Similar to haglund's deformity or retrocalcaneal exostosis where some patients feel pain due to interaction of shoe with the exostosis.

I fully understand the act of stressors causing a bony growth. Will the location of the exostosis determine if pain is caused by the exostosis alone? What about the calcaneal inclination angle? Will this have an affect? I assume a greater calcaneal inclination angle will lead to a higher longitudinal arch which will cause greater "stretching" of the plantar aponeurosis during stance phase. Still, I have seen patients with fairy flat feet, low calcaneal inclination angle, and a large bone spur. This particular patient wasn't affected by the spur. Maybe this was because she had a release performed.

I know that release is usually done if conservative treatment fails, and I have seen articles discussing the removal of the exostosis. In one case, not all of the bone was removed properly and the patient complained of a feeling of walking on rocks while barefoot but did not experience pain.

Anyhow, thanks for the info! :)
 
Jawfixer said:
Great responses, thanks and I would like to here more opinions.

Are orthotics only good for people with foot/gait "issues"? I have been tested and I'm neutral, no sup or pro. What do you think?

Tell me more about what you know about orthotics.

Thanks

As the saying goes, there are very few perfect feet (if any at all).

As you know Orthotics can help with hypremobile subtalor joint activity (pronation/supination), flat feet, cavus feet, feet with minimal fat pads on the calcaneous or Metatarsal heads, limb discrepancies, and other conditions.

Therefore, you can probably benefit from orthotics. I guess the question you need to ask is if you feel pain at the end of the day in your feet, knees, and/or back. If you do, and you have normal subtalar joint activity, then the extra cushining may benefit you. In addition, I think orthotics or slightly inclined shoes may slightly redistribute your center of mass ;) by rotating your hips/verticle alignment in the anterior direction. This may help redistribute the weight over the entire foot and relieve the pain associated with the calcaneous. Allow the MT fatpads to handle some of the weight also.

As for types, there are rigid, semi-rigid, and soft. Rigid helps more with subtalar hypermobility while soft helps with pain associated with minimal fat pad absorption. I could retype info that I found; I will give you some links instead. I am sure you have already found these sites ;)

http://www.apma.org/s_apma/doc.asp?CID=146&DID=9423

http://www.podiatrychannel.com/orthotics/
 
Great discusssion guys! This is how the podiatry forum should be like. Mutual learning and respect for one another. Another etiology/differential diagnosis to consider, that is not very popular and often not even thought about, is the Spring Ligament. Every time someone has heel pain...always the PF comes to mind, but any pathologies to the Spring Ligament can also cause very similar symptoms. Something interesting to think about. Also, I find that the eversion and external rotation portions of pronation causes more problems with PF than the dorsiflexion portion. Keep the discussion going! Thanks guys!

TigerStyle
 
TIGER STYLE said:
Great discusssion guys! This is how the podiatry forum should be like. Mutual learning and respect for one another. Another etiology/differential diagnosis to consider, that is not very popular and often not even thought about, is the Spring Ligament. Every time someone has heel pain...always the PF comes to mind, but any pathologies to the Spring Ligament can also cause very similar symptoms. Something interesting to think about. Also, I find that the eversion and external rotation portions of pronation causes more problems with PF than the dorsiflexion portion. Keep the discussion going! Thanks guys!

TigerStyle


I'm not asking for proof just further reading...

Do you have any journal articles on it? If not, I can look my self on pubmed.
 
TIGER STYLE said:
Great discusssion guys! Every time someone has heel pain...always the PF comes to mind, but any pathologies to the Spring Ligament can also cause very similar symptoms. Something interesting to think about. Also, I find that the eversion and external rotation portions of pronation causes more problems with PF than the dorsiflexion portion. Keep the discussion going! Thanks guys!

TigerStyle

Interesting.

I believe you are talking about CKC. If I remember from my lower extremity anatomy course, supination during CKC consists of calcaneal inversion (frontal plane motion), abduction and dorsiflexion of the talus (transverse and sagittal plane motion), and external rotation of the tibia. During pronation, the calcaneus everts, the talus adducts and plantarflexes, and there is internal rotation of the tibia. Since the functional first ray is composed of the first cuneiform, first metatarsal, sesamoids, and Hallux and the toes are still dorsifexed by the extensors it would seem that the plantar fascia is tightened by the windlass mechanism. This could be causing the pain associated with the plantar aponeurosis.

Still, I am surprised the patients don't feel the pain during propulsion. Unless propulsion is what you are discussing. ?

In addition, I have seen patients with pretty severe flatfoot conditions where the head of the Talus had displaced the spring ligament quite a bit but the patient didn't feel any "pain". Also, there has been some research regarding posterior tibial tendon dysfunction and its potential relationship to destruction of numerous ligaments of the foot. No pain was reported.

There is an article titled: "The In Vivo Elastic Properties of the Plantar Fascia During the Contact Phase of Walking"

I found this article pretty interesting. Although there were some simple errors and some serious assumptions, the results are quite interesting.
 
Yes, according to Root, which is pretty much the bible of biomechanics with podiatric schools, you are correct. I'm not arguing about the biomechanics of the STJ, 1st ray, tibial torsion, or the windlass mechanism...all that is very logical. Clinically, I'm saying that if you can control the eversion and external rotation aspects of pronation with orthotics, the patient will do very well. Make sure that the heel cup is low to allow as much motion as possible in the rear foot, not only functionally but according to patient comfort and shoe type also. As far as the Spring Ligament goes...this is not a very popular thought...of course not...You've been taught all the buzz words of heel pain, spurs, PF and all the rest ( when I said "you" I mean all physicians, not just DPMs)...I was at a general surgery conference in Chicago, when a group of podiatrists from Australia proposed that the Spring Ligament is involved with heel pain more common than clinically diagnosed. They proposed that approx 20% of cases of PF is actually pathologies to the Spring Ligament. The group was from Melbourne. If you do a pubmed search, I'm sure you'll find something. It makes very much sense though. Just think outside of the box , look at the anatomy, look at the hows and the whys...and you will see that it very much makes sense. Just interesting, that's all. My interest is in general surgery. I'm a general surgery intern here in Detroit. I don't know as much as you about foot and ankle disorders...I just read everything for fun. I'm pretty much addicted to reading! My main reads are general surgery, but I have a million articles from JAPMA to dermatology to acupuncture to growing orchids. So, podiatry reads is only a hobby. I hope I could learn more from you guys.

At my hospital, DPM residents are actually doing a study on this subject. Hopefully, this will add to what we already know about heel pain, PF...

All those MRIs to eval. the Spring Ligament is costing a ton of $$ however! They got a huge research grant from Novartis so that helped a lot.
 
Hello,

I haven't had biomechanics but I have my lower extremity notes. I don't have a book on biomechanics but I need to get one. I was going to wait until class to find out which book is recommended.

As far as the spring ligament, it is one of the strongest ligaments of the talocalcaneonavicular joint and forms a strong bond between the rearfoot and midfoot. If the spring ligament, or plantar calcaneonavicular ligament, is torn, the plantar aponeurosis will be required to provide greater arch support for the medial side of the longitudinal arch. In addition, the porta pedis is located in this general area which means the division of the medial plantar nerve may be affected by potential compression (If this were the case, I would think more people would have pain after release of the plantar aponeurosis.) Especially the muscular branch to the abductor hallucis which takes part of its orgin from the navicular. The plantar calcaneonavicular ligament attaches to the plantar surface of the navicular. Also, a the talocalcaneonavicular joint is functionally apart of the midtarsal joint. Seems that a comprimise in the plantar calcaneonavicular ligament would cause hypermobility of the midtarsal joint and be responsible for the additional tension applied to the central and medial portion of the plantar aponeurosis.

During the stance phase (CKC) and eversion of the calcaneous, the tibia rotates internally, and the talus adducts and plantarflexes. If the spring ligament is severely compromised, the talus will plantarflex more than normal. This would probably provide a moment at the posterior subtalar joint forcing the calcaneus to sligtly plantarflex and evert more than normal (a rotation in the frontal and sagittal planes) which would cause a greter force on the plantar fascia attachment to the medial tubercle of the calcaneus. Over time, woudn't the synovial joint be affected causing bone on bone contact between the navicular and the head of the talus. This could cause errosion and more hypermobility. Initially, the head of the talus may be at an angle that would cause slight rotation of the navicular in the dorsal/proximal direction. This, in turn, could cause slight rotation of the 1st cuneiform and 1st ray causing even more tension on the central/medial plantar aponeurosis by enhancing the windlass effect.

OK....there it is.... LET ME HAVE IT. :)

You must have a faster reading speed than me. Especially considering your busy schedule with general surgery. My wife's sister is in her general surgery residency in Detroit. She is very cool, very intelligent, and very busy. A friend of hers use to be in the Scholl program. I believe he is in orthopedics now.
 
Let you have what? Who's arguing with you about the anatomy of the foot? I know you're trying to make things sound complicated and all, but be careful in trying to confuse others that you end up confusing yourself. Whatever your logic is, I guess there's no reasoning with you. OK, nevermind what I said about the spring ligament! Nevermind what the Australian podiatrists and the DPMs here said also. Continue your education! I recommend Merton Root's book for your biomechanics class when you take it. It's a little thick but a great read. I sure wish I could have met him before he died. The guy's a genius! Good luck to you, your wife's sister who is a surgery resident in Detroit, and her friend that went to scholl and is now in orthopedics surgery! :rolleyes:
 
TIGER STYLE said:
Let you have what? Who's arguing with you about the anatomy of the foot? I know you're trying to make things sound complicated and all, but be careful in trying to confuse others that you end up confusing yourself. Whatever your logic is, I guess all those podiatrists and the residents here are wrong. OK, nevermind what I said! Continue your education and good luck! What year are you anyway? When will you take bimechanics? I recommend Merton Root's book. It's a little thick but a great read. I sure wish I could have met him before he died. The guy's a genius!

Really, I wasn't trying to make anything sound complicated. I think you are a pretty funny person though. Where did I get confused? I thought I did pretty well.

I didn't look up the Journal article but I am curious were I went wrong. Especially since I have only finished 1 year. I start my 2nd on Aug. 1st.

I will be taking biomechanics this year. After that, I may be able to give you some better advice.

I just wish some of the other students/residents would speak up. Maybe they are having too much fun on my behalf. :oops:
 
"I will be taking biomechanics this year. After that, I may be able to give you some better advice." quote...

I wasn't asking your for your advice. I was sharing new ideas that are being thought of recently when it comes to heel pain/PF. I wanted an open, fun, informative conversation with you or any other physicians that would like to contribute. But now that I know you are only a first year student, I'll just ignore you. Maybe in 3 years when you become a physician, then we may conversate. But right now, you are a rude, insecure, disrespectful 1st year student who still have a lot to learn. One advice: be a jerk here is fine. Calling residents and doctors "funny person" here...no problem. But if you bring that attitude on your clerkships...good luck in getting a good residency.
 
TIGER STYLE said:
"I will be taking biomechanics this year. After that, I may be able to give you some better advice." quote...

I wasn't asking your for your advice. I was sharing new ideas that are being thought of recently when it comes to heel pain/PF. I wanted an open, fun, informative conversation with you or any other physicians that would like to contribute. But now that I know you are only a first year student, I'll just ignore you. Maybe in 3 years when you become a physician, then we may conversate. But right now, you are a rude, insecure, disrespectful 1st year student who still have a lot to learn. One advice: be a jerk here is fine. Calling residents and doctors "funny person" here...no problem. But if you bring that attitude on your clerkships...good luck in getting a good residency.

Very true.... Who am I to give advice anyhow (not meant to be sarcastic)

As far as "funny person", I still think that is true. Although, you are very interesting also.

I do ask that you share the key piece of the new info. I will read it tomorrow.
 
Last message to you 1st year student. After this, I will only post to Doctors of Podiatric Medicine or Podiatry Students that are open minded and nice.

Now, why would I share, or waste my time doing a search for you? haha! You are a funny person! I think your school provided you with a free PubMed or Up To Date account, so anything that you really want to know, you can look it up for yourself.

1st year student...you will learn soon that when you go on your clerkships, YOU will be the one looking up articles or anything that your Resident Physicians want or need to know. YOU will be doing searches for them, not the other way around. "I'll read it tomorrow"? haha!!! You still have a lot to learn kid!
 
What about the potential of scar tissue replacing the elastic tissue of the plantar calcaneonavicular ligament (when tears occur)? If there is a decrease in elastic tissue, mobility of the medial portion of the midtarsal joint will be decreased, less energy will be absorbed by the elastic properties of the spring ligament, and more enery would be transmitted through the longitudinal arch to the plantar fascia.
 
In terms of Merton Root... that's a whole other thread, but I'll stick stuff in here now... Personally I think getting a broader view on pod biomech is really important. Is it straight pod biomech, or general biomech you're going to do?

Root's theory is a theory, and was really important in the evolution of pod biomech. It's important to know about - the "evidence base" of FFOs... However, given later work by McPoil et al regarding normalcy, it seems clear that Root's model is a theoretical ideal, and that we need to find a middle ground. Good luck with biomech - tis neat!

OK so the post is totally off topic... sorry, ne.
 
TIGER STYLE said:
Last message to you 1st year student. After this, I will only post to Doctors of Podiatric Medicine or Podiatry Students that are open minded and nice.

Now, why would I share, or waste my time doing a search for you? haha! You are a funny person! I think your school provided you with a free PubMed or Up To Date account, so anything that you really want to know, you can look it up for yourself.

1st year student...you will learn soon that when you go on your clerkships, YOU will be the one looking up articles or anything that your Resident Physicians want or need to know. YOU will be doing searches for them, not the other way around. "I'll read it tomorrow"? haha!!! You still have a lot to learn kid!

I second Tiger Style...there is much to be learned. One must ALWAYS remember - "knowledge is experience, the rest is just information" - Albert Einstein
 
Ski Bum said:
I second Tiger Style...there is much to be learned. One must ALWAYS remember - "knowledge is experience, the rest is just information" - Albert Einstein

True:

I wonder if Albert did poorly in school and on tests just because he didn't study the material of his prof's and learn the vocab? He sure was a genius even though he didn't excel in his formal "studies".
 
I have found myself torn between trying to memorize my class notes (which have lots of good info) and reading several books on biomechanics.

I find it interesting that three different books, which I have been reading, look at biomechanics in a different while slightly similar way.

One book discusses the six determinants of gait quite differently than another.

How the rise and fall of the ankle joint axis and the knee axis cancel each other to help minimize energy consumption is just one example.
 
PM2 said:
I have found myself torn between trying to memorize my class notes (which have lots of good info) and reading several books on biomechanics.

I find it interesting that three different books, which I have been reading, look at biomechanics in a different while slightly similar way.

One book discusses the six determinants of gait quite differently than another.

How the rise and fall of the ankle joint axis and the knee axis cancel each other to help minimize energy consumption is just one example.

that is the essence of biomechanics...each view point will give you another window to look through when evaluating a patient. as you are probably aware of, BM has lots of gray area...not so black and white like other classes you may have taken. you must understand this when applying your knowledge when evaluating your patient and keep an open mind because there is endless variability in regards to functions of the lower extremity...which you will appreciate as you get more experience in the clinic.
 
Ski Bum said:
that is the essence of biomechanics...each view point will give you another window to look through when evaluating a patient. as you are probably aware of, BM has lots of gray area...not so black and white like other classes you may have taken. you must understand this when applying your knowledge when evaluating your patient and keep an open mind because there is endless variability in regards to functions of the lower extremity...which you will appreciate as you get more experience in the clinic.

Ski Bum,

You seem to have great insight to biomechanics and clinic. How long have you been using the rules of biomechanics in a clinical environment?

I was wondering if you could help me with a concept.

We know that the STJA acts like a "screw with a cone". The axis deviates as motion occurs during stance. What is the range of deviation? What is considered to be abnormal? What ligaments would be affected most severely? Would an excessive supinatory motion during terminal stance cause accelerated external rotation of the hip?

As we know, the tibia has a faster angular rotation than the femur. If there is excessive supination of the STJA during the final stages of stance and directly before it should have began pronation motion to neutral position at toe off, would this excessive supinatin cause the neutral position of the hip joint to be affected, which could lead to hip problems. Would we see more knee flexion? If so, would the additional knee flexion and transverse rotation of the knee joint? If there isn't an additional knee flexion that would counter the extra supination, would the pelvis have more transverse plane rotation to counter the impulse change, or would the pelvis have more lateral rotation? Probably a momentary contribution of both factors. If this is the case, the L5S1 segment would be affected over the long run.

From your clinical experience, what is the best way to treat such a case?

Also, I hate vague test questions that could go either way.
Example: During the end of swing phase and when the foot makes contact with the ground....

What Newton's law of motion describes this interaction?

Then the professor gives all laws as choices.

Let's see.... There is a decrease in velocity and a discontinous change in velocity implies a change in acceleration. There is an continous impulse change in momentum since velocity is changing, and there is a reaction force to the force from the body.

Hmmmm....Can go either way. You can also look at it from the point of view of conservation of energy: As the "body falls" the kinetic energy is increasing and the potential energy is decreasing. Since mass is conserved in classical physics and is appropriate for these dimensions, then the velocity must be changing for KE to be increasing. When the foot makes contact, there is an impulse change in velocity of the extremity and the horizontal force is acting on a "particle" on the plantar surface of the heel. Since mass is constant, this force must have an affect of the acceleration of the lower extremity.

Yet for the GRF action, there is a reaction.... What about the change in momentum. The heel basically stops (not completely) and there is a impluse force between the calcaneous and talus mostly (little transfer of energy to the calcaneocuboid ligaments), and the momentum from the falling leg is conserved by the rotation of the talus, rotation of the calcaneus, and rotation of the tibia, femur, etc... not to mention the "linear" compression of the bones, miniscus, ligaments etc. This compression causes a change in direction of these structures which is a change in velocity and momentum. All lead to conservation of momentum. The real key is conservation of energy though because it is the only way one can truly explain what is happening in a theoretical sence. After all, that change in velocity of the "particle" in the ligament or meniscus is partially a change from mechanical energy to work and heat energy (Internal energy of the elastic component of the meniscus and ligaments). Probably a little enthaply involved also because there is a little "flow" work associated with the viscoelastic materia and enthalpy is internal energy with "flow work" (usually associated with open systems; may also be associated with bonding forces). Not to mention the energy absorbed by the synovial cavity.

Anyhow, back to studying. I just thought some of the questions were very subjective.

Different experiences leads one to see something differently. Different minds think differently. If a question is created and then you take the class average response to decide the "best answer", is this really the best answer?

It is true that N minds are better than ni minds (where N=Summation of ni), but not in every situation. As an example: I went to the planatarium in chicago and participated in the "space ship navigation" where each seat had up, down, left, and right controls. I think there were 100+ seats and each seat was occupied by a person who made a decision on which "control direction" to push based of their perception of the space crafts potential place in space. A computer then averages all inputs and makes a final decision based on the greatest number. Initially, we were in open space and I noticed that it was quite rare that the ship went in a direction that I chose (probably based on random probablility more than anything since each person theoretically had "independent choices"). When we entered the canyon, we were now influenced by what we saw on the screen (we could only go slightly left/right/down and almost always up) so the "experiment was biased" On each try, we crashed very quickly. (kind of like star wars and flying through canyons).Did perception play a crucial role? The people on the far right may have percieved that we were to close to the left wall and over compensated. People on the left may have thought we were to close to the right wall and over compensated. People in the middle may have compensated more appropriately but saw the distant "curves" differently and attempted to anticipate a slight directional change which could have caused over compensation. In addition, were the seats appropriately balanced?

I could create a question and ask: The space ship was going in a straight line, changed direction and crashed..... What caused this?

Pushing of buttons
Peoples perception
Distribution of people in the seating

Back to studying
 
PM2 said:
Ski Bum,

You seem to have great insight to biomechanics and clinic. How long have you been using the rules of biomechanics in a clinical environment?

I was wondering if you could help me with a concept.

We know that the STJA acts like a "screw with a cone". The axis deviates as motion occurs during stance. What is the range of deviation? What is considered to be abnormal? What ligaments would be affected most severely? Would an excessive supinatory motion during terminal stance cause accelerated external rotation of the hip?

As we know, the tibia has a faster angular rotation than the femur. If there is excessive supination of the STJA during the final stages of stance and directly before it should have began pronation motion to neutral position at toe off, would this excessive supinatin cause the neutral position of the hip joint to be affected, which could lead to hip problems. Would we see more knee flexion? If so, would the additional knee flexion and transverse rotation of the knee joint? If there isn't an additional knee flexion that would counter the extra supination, would the pelvis have more transverse plane rotation to counter the impulse change, or would the pelvis have more lateral rotation? Probably a momentary contribution of both factors. If this is the case, the L5S1 segment would be affected over the long run.

From your clinical experience, what is the best way to treat such a case?

Also, I hate vague test questions that could go either way.
Example: During the end of swing phase and when the foot makes contact with the ground....

What Newton's law of motion describes this interaction?

Then the professor gives all laws as choices.

Let's see.... There is a decrease in velocity and a discontinous change in velocity implies a change in acceleration. There is an continous impulse change in momentum since velocity is changing, and there is a reaction force to the force from the body.

Hmmmm....Can go either way. You can also look at it from the point of view of conservation of energy: As the "body falls" the kinetic energy is increasing and the potential energy is decreasing. Since mass is conserved in classical physics and is appropriate for these dimensions, then the velocity must be changing for KE to be increasing. When the foot makes contact, there is an impulse change in velocity of the extremity and the horizontal force is acting on a "particle" on the plantar surface of the heel. Since mass is constant, this force must have an affect of the acceleration of the lower extremity.

Yet for the GRF action, there is a reaction.... What about the change in momentum. The heel basically stops (not completely) and there is a impluse force between the calcaneous and talus mostly (little transfer of energy to the calcaneocuboid ligaments), and the momentum from the falling leg is conserved by the rotation of the talus, rotation of the calcaneus, and rotation of the tibia, femur, etc... not to mention the "linear" compression of the bones, miniscus, ligaments etc. This compression causes a change in direction of these structures which is a change in velocity and momentum. All lead to conservation of momentum. The real key is conservation of energy though because it is the only way one can truly explain what is happening in a theoretical sence. After all, that change in velocity of the "particle" in the ligament or meniscus is partially a change from mechanical energy to work and heat energy (Internal energy of the elastic component of the meniscus and ligaments). Probably a little enthaply involved also because there is a little "flow" work associated with the viscoelastic materia and enthalpy is internal energy with "flow work" (usually associated with open systems; may also be associated with bonding forces). Not to mention the energy absorbed by the synovial cavity.

Anyhow, back to studying. I just thought some of the questions were very subjective.

Different experiences leads one to see something differently. Different minds think differently. If a question is created and then you take the class average response to decide the "best answer", is this really the best answer?

It is true that N minds are better than ni minds (where N=Summation of ni), but not in every situation. As an example: I went to the planatarium in chicago and participated in the "space ship navigation" where each seat had up, down, left, and right controls. I think there were 100+ seats and each seat was occupied by a person who made a decision on which "control direction" to push based of their perception of the space crafts potential place in space. A computer then averages all inputs and makes a final decision based on the greatest number. Initially, we were in open space and I noticed that it was quite rare that the ship went in a direction that I chose (probably based on random probablility more than anything since each person theoretically had "independent choices"). When we entered the canyon, we were now influenced by what we saw on the screen (we could only go slightly left/right/down and almost always up) so the "experiment was biased" On each try, we crashed very quickly. (kind of like star wars and flying through canyons).Did perception play a crucial role? The people on the far right may have percieved that we were to close to the left wall and over compensated. People on the left may have thought we were to close to the right wall and over compensated. People in the middle may have compensated more appropriately but saw the distant "curves" differently and attempted to anticipate a slight directional change which could have caused over compensation. In addition, were the seats appropriately balanced?

I could create a question and ask: The space ship was going in a straight line, changed direction and crashed..... What caused this?

Pushing of buttons
Peoples perception
Distribution of people in the seating

Back to studying


HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!! That was freakin' hilarious! Ski Bum, see what you did?! HA HA!
 
:) ;) ;) :laugh:

Truth is.... Biomechanics is COOL

I liked the parts about the STJ, knee, Hip, Newton's laws, thermo, and especially the experience in the planatarium.

That really was a coll time. We kept crashing that #$%^ spaceship.

Good to see some sense of humor in here again.
 
The bone spur is typically caused by the tight plantar fascia pulling on the calcaneus where it attaches.
Sorry aout being late to this thread. That statement is very wrong. The bone spur is not even in the plantar facia!!!
It was discused here:
Is a calcaneal spur in the plantar fascia?
and all the references for "proof" you need are cited there.
 
Top