Decisions. Decisions.

[Raijah03]

I am deeply interested in getting a Clinical Psychology PhD because I want to do research. I’ve been working towards this goal for years while also trying to decide if this is the path I want to travel down. My old problem is that I am a working adult in their 30s. Quitting my job to pursue this degree isn’t feasible.



The main program I want to apply to doesn’t allow you to work while in the program which is absolutely annoying especially consider so many things are remote at this including my jobs and the classes for the program I want to apply to. My job is affiliated with the university medical school and psychology program so I get to interact with MD, DO, and PhDs all the time and they give me the details.



Many of them are professors at the university and we talk constantly about how the Clinical Psychology programs need to evolve with the times and allow students to either work while in the program or attend part-time. I’ve been told that my experience makes me a shoe in so they don’t know why I just haven’t applied yet.. But they don’t seem to understand why a single woman can’t just quit her job and work for a stipend for several years.



I would easily and gladly take 7-8 years to finish the program if I could do it part time. Also my job would allow me the flexibility of moving my working hours to allow me to complete the program as well.



While I am figuring out whether or not to apply to the programs, I’ve been working with a Clinical Psych PhD. I’ve been assisting her with writing papers so that I can be published, gathering data, writing research protocols and consents, and grant writing. It’s fun work and my primary job is a Regulatory Supervisor for oncology clinical trials so I already do a lot of this work.



Basically I am stuck between a rock and hard place. Do I apply and decide what to do afterwards? Do I wait until I retire and then pursue this dream? Decisions. Decisions

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[Temperance]

If you are able to support the cost of applying and interviewing without too much burden, then it might be worthwhile to apply and make the decision afterward.

What about working in research interests you? What is it that you hope to do in terms of the day-to-day after the Ph.D.? I ask because there are opportunities to be engaged in various steps of the research process that you may be able to do already, especially since it sounds like you are already in the clinical research industry. If you can do what you want to do without going through the financially grueling process of a Ph.D. program and then postdoctoral fellowship, then that might be the more optimal route to go given your concerns that you can't live on a stipend for 6+ years.

 

[PsycIntern2021]

It sounds like you are well-informed about your position. I truly think that it is a personal decision at this point - I wouldn't apply if you do not intend to go but that's just me. I also think that there are creative financial ways to make it work if you decide to pursue the PhD - source: several students in my program were single women in their 30s who did not have a financial safety net before entering. That doesn't mean that it's fun or that it's right for you, but it can be done. There is also the possibility of going to a program in a less expensive location - even if the location is "less desirable", if the research fit is right, it could help the financial situation substantially.

It's a frustrating place to be in but only you can decide what you want to do day-to-day in the future. It's a long process, so no matter what, be all in at the end of the day if you go that route.

 

[summerbabe]

Many of them are professors at the university and we talk constantly about how the Clinical Psychology programs need to evolve with the times and allow students to either work while in the program or attend part-time.

Assuming this is a funded PhD program, are they accounting for how these students are assigned to work the equivalent of a 20 hr/wk 'job' through teaching, TA/RA, other department work, or paid externship? That combined with coursework, practicum, and research filling up one's schedule to the point that substantial outside employment should seriously impact one's ability to stay on track and/or ability to have any semblance of life outside of school and work. I was surprised by just how much of my life was taken up by grad school

I would easily and gladly take 7-8 years to finish the program if I could do it part time. Also my job would allow me the flexibility of moving my working hours to allow me to complete the program as well.

Given that median degree completion (including predoctoral internship) is around 6 years of full-time study with much greater likelihood of needing 7 years than being able to finish in 5, I would imagine that if a 'true' part-time option was offered, it would take longer than your estimate. And that's without accounting for how to ensure getting enough quality clinical experiences on a part-time schedule.

I've seen a variety of folks with different life circumstances make it work (taking out tons of loans even in a funded program, living exclusively off the grad student stipend, older than you, entering school as a parent, single parenting, having a kid while in school, etc) but regardless, it'll take sacrifice and commitment. If you feel like you're a competitive candidate, I don't think it would hurt to apply or apply selectively and figure out your options and decide from there. Best of luck as you move forward!

 

[bcliff]

External employment was "forbidden" (not sure how enforceable that would have been, legally speaking) in my program, but faculty/the department would look the other way so long as students were consistently meeting expectations. From my third year on, I was getting paid for external research and clinical work (all program sanctioned) in addition to the "full" funding I received from my program.

Feel free to PM if you're interested in chatting more about this, as my experience has been somewhat unique/different from most other trainees that I've met over the years.

 

[borne_before]

"Forbidding" external employment is so lame. In my experience, the students who worked during their degree, internally on grants and teaching, and externally, were the most successful students. I think it's good to have hustle to keep you grounded. That is, they got stuff done and had some money to spend. Expecting students to just suck up student loan debt is the most out of touch Ivory tower thing I've ever heard.

 

[WisNeuro]

"Forbidding" external employment is so lame. In my experience, the students who worked during their degree, internally on grants and teaching, and externally, were the most successful students. I think it's good to have hustle to keep you grounded. That is, they got stuff done and had some money to spend. Expecting students to just suck up student loan debt is the most out of touch Ivory tower thing I've ever heard.

I've seen it as a rule at many places, but never really enforced. I actually agree with it for at least the first 1-2 years. It's too easy for students to take on too much, and when you start falling behind what is a very hectic pace, it can snowball quickly. Better to get acclimated than accrue academic probations on your record. But, aside from that, half the people in our program worked in the latter half of the grad school experience.

 

[Raijah03]

External employment was "forbidden" (not sure how enforceable that would have been, legally speaking) in my program, but faculty/the department would look the other way so long as students were consistently meeting expectations. From my third year on, I was getting paid for external research and clinical work (all program sanctioned) in addition to the "full" funding I received from my program.

Feel free to PM if you're interested in chatting more about this, as my experience has been somewhat unique/different from most other trainees that I've met over the years.

My employer is very flexible in terms of employment as long as your in good standing. I would probably have to take a drop from being a manager but that would be fine and easily done as people have done it before for other reasons.

 

[PsyDr]

1) The system is what it is. You can quit your job and work for a stipend for several years. You desire to is your own thing.

2) This is an unproductive argument structure:

"I can't just leave my _______ to go to ______. Why can't I _________?! My teachers say____! Do I have to wait until ____ so I can_____?!"

 

[Temperance]

My employer is very flexible in terms of employment as long as your in good standing. I would probably have to take a drop from being a manager but that would be fine and easily done as people have done it before for other reasons.

How flexible? Would you be able to take leaves of absence as you go through the first two years of a program? What happens when you start rounds at practicum sites that might be inflexible in when they can schedule you (i.e. during business hours)?

The reason that training is so inflexible with regard to being full-time is that it's scaffolded. If you slow down one aspect of training, such as taking fewer classes to accommodate attending part-time, then that delay snowballs and delays everything else. In most programs, you take the heaviest class load during the first two years because those courses prepare you to do clinical training in later years, not to mention you need to build foundational skills in research for your dissertation.

To take an example from my own program, we take classes in intelligence testing, adult psychopathology, and cognitive behavior therapy in the first year, in addition to classes in statistics and other content areas. We then build on those classes with courses in objective personality assessment, child psychopathology, and beginning practicum in second year, again in addition to more courses in statistics and other content areas. For personal reasons, I delayed taking intelligence testing to second year; this led to me being unable to take objective personality assessment, which meant that I could not do many assessment-focused practica in my third year with my fellow cohort mates because I did not meet their requirements. At this point, I could either stay longer to make up for the deficit in assessment hours, or I could work more hours than I already do to get those assessment hours (and risk burning out).

As sympathetic as many of us are to how the training does not accommodate people wanting to attend part-time, the reality as it is right now is that there is not much room to maneuver. Even making the one change I just described for someone attending full-time was a hassle and very disruptive to my training.

I've known people who tried to make balancing graduate school with employment work. They've eventually had to pick one or the other. I took on external employment to make extra income because, as lucky as I was to be in an affordable cost-of-living area, I had other expenses and wanted to avoid taking on student loans. Even though the employment was as an independent contractor/1099 with flexible scheduling, it absolutely affected my ability to perform as a graduate student. I had less time to do my readings, less time to deeply engage with my assignments, less time for my own research, less time for preparing for my clients. I would never recommend that another student do this, at least for the first couple of years when there's so much on their plate and the need to acclimate to graduate school.

Best of luck, whatever you decide.

 

[psych.meout]

"Forbidding" external employment is so lame. In my experience, the students who worked during their degree, internally on grants and teaching, and externally, were the most successful students. I think it's good to have hustle to keep you grounded. That is, they got stuff done and had some money to spend. Expecting students to just suck up student loan debt is the most out of touch Ivory tower thing I've ever heard.

It's not a binary thing and I'd hesitate to project your experience onto all other students and programs. Programs are generally reasonable about these things even if they have a general policy forbidding outside work that isn't sanctioned by one's mentor and program, which is typically about whether that extra work is interfering with other aspects of training and their timeline in the program. Early in one's program it's often much more difficult to do this kind of extra work, but once you are mostly or completely done with classes it is much easier to do it. Moreover, certain kinds of additional work, like teaching and grants, are both more manageable and more attractive to faculty and the program. Others, like working a part-time job in whatever field you were in prior to grad school, are less so.

Also, there's an issue of grad students not always being the best judge of these things. They can often be drawn to working more and more out of necessity and enjoying the extra income and may feel pressured to honor these extra commitments even if they recognize they are at the expense of their training (e.g., if they are working at a clinic where they were also a prac student and don't want to alienate the supervisor who would also be writing them a letter for internship). This is why it's helpful to have these policies so that at least your mentor knows what's up, that way they can provide feedback and can potentially take the hit for you if you need to bow out gracefully from a side gig without alienating anyone there.

 

[Raijah03]

How flexible? Would you be able to take leaves of absence as you go through the first two years of a program? What happens when you start rounds at practicum sites that might be inflexible in when they can schedule you (i.e. during business hours)?

The reason that training is so inflexible with regard to being full-time is that it's scaffolded. If you slow down one aspect of training, such as taking fewer classes to accommodate attending part-time, then that delay snowballs and delays everything else. In most programs, you take the heaviest class load during the first two years because those courses prepare you to do clinical training in later years, not to mention you need to build foundational skills in research for your dissertation.

To take an example from my own program, we take classes in intelligence testing, adult psychopathology, and cognitive behavior therapy in the first year, in addition to classes in statistics and other content areas. We then build on those classes with courses in objective personality assessment, child psychopathology, and beginning practicum in second year, again in addition to more courses in statistics and other content areas. For personal reasons, I delayed taking intelligence testing to second year; this led to me being unable to take objective personality assessment, which meant that I could not do many assessment-focused practica in my third year with my fellow cohort mates because I did not meet their requirements. At this point, I could either stay longer to make up for the deficit in assessment hours, or I could work more hours than I already do to get those assessment hours (and risk burning out).

As sympathetic as many of us are to how the training does not accommodate people wanting to attend part-time, the reality as it is right now is that there is not much room to maneuver. Even making the one change I just described for someone attending full-time was a hassle and very disruptive to my training.

I've known people who tried to make balancing graduate school with employment work. They've eventually had to pick one or the other. I took on external employment to make extra income because, as lucky as I was to be in an affordable cost-of-living area, I had other expenses and wanted to avoid taking on student loans. Even though the employment was as an independent contractor/1099 with flexible scheduling, it absolutely affected my ability to perform as a graduate student. I had less time to do my readings, less time to deeply engage with my assignments, less time for my own research, less time for preparing for my clients. I would never recommend that another student do this, at least for the first couple of years when there's so much on their plate and the need to acclimate to graduate school.

Best of luck, whatever you decide.

Thank you for that detailed explanation. Many people are vague on the reasonings so it’s nice to hear the details.

 

[psycle708]

In my program, students have to petition to be "allowed" to have outside employment. I think it was a very unique situation, but there was a student who was approved to forego the assistantship and stipend and stay at her job part-time - her original career was very related to her research/clinical interests and I guess they decided it was valuable experience to continue (and her part-time pay was significantly more than the stipend). I don't know if she was able to keep it up throughout the whole program. Obviously not for internship.

 

[Ollie123]

Won't repeat the above, but I think its worth noting what a typical schedule might be like for a clinical student. Many of the posts we see that state a desire to work during the program often assume that grad school is basically undergrad with harder classes and a dissertation, but that just isn't how it works. Clinical is particularly intense because you're combining clinical and research training, unlike programs in many other fields.

A typical schedule might be something along the lines of:
9-12 hours class time
~10 hours "homework" (e.g. reading articles for class, studying for exams, writing papers for classes, etc.)
10-20 hours clinical practicum
10-20 hours "assistantship"(usually either teaching or supporting faculty research)
? additional time on "your" research (master's, dissertation + you better do a lot more than "just" those if you want any sort of academic career)

I tried to be conservative (i.e. round down) my estimates but you're still looking at substantially more hours than most full-time jobs before we even discuss thesis/dissertation. This schedule lasts around 5-6 years. It varies somewhat from year-to-year. For example, you typically have less class time in later years, but many escalate their research and clinical hours to get ready for internship and beyond. You would conceivably eliminate the "assistantship" piece by continuing to work, which would knock 10-20 hours off your schedule depending on exactly what you did. However, its worth noting these assistantships are genuinely pretty integral to the experience. You might be primary instructor for classes with 200+ undergrads, serving as a trainee clinical supervisor/manager in the department clinic, working on large-scale faculty research projects that lead to additional publications, etc. So its not like these positions are waiting tables to pay the bills - they're often very important components of building your CV and without them, you likely come out weaker relative to your peers.

Someone above mentioned how coursework is not set up for people to do things out of order, but I actually think the example they gave somewhat minimizes the complexity of the situation. Other than courses, many of the above can't be done at "half-time." A clinic set up for a 20 hour/week practicum may not let you work for 10 hours because they may want/need practicum students to cover groups for a full 40 hours (for example). You're now narrowing the list of practicums to the ones that would accommodate this, which might eliminate some important options. So maybe you say "OK, I'll wait til I'm mostly done with coursework before I even consider practicum." Well....these are often integrated with coursework. So you bang out all the required courses and now you want to do your first practicum. Oh, but you took clinical assessment what....3-4 years ago now depending on whether you were also completing coursework "part-time"? Sure you remember how to interpret an MMPI? What happens when the practicum supervisor (not necessarily a faculty member) you were hoping to ask for a letter of recommendation for internship now realizes you basically need remediation to be at the level of other students?

I say all this not to discourage, but just to hopefully provide a realistic perspective on what this looks like. Given it sounds like your job involves research I think it is plausible you could make a case for continuing it. Psycho-oncology is a pretty hot and very well-funded topic that might work well for you. When you say keeping your job, would 10-20 hours/week suffice though? Or do you want to stay full-time? How....energic....are you and does consistently putting in 80-90 hours (doing intellectual, creative work) for 5-6 years sound sustainable? If so, good for you but its a very small minority of people that can pull that off without burning out or worse.

All food for thought. I should also note, we had quite a few people starting in their late 20's/early 30's in my program who had previous careers. Some had kids. Many were single. Exceedingly few came from wealthy families they could rely on for support from what I could tell.

 

[Cantab109]

I had the same experience that others are saying. My program technically did not allow outside employment, but it was not an issue if we turned in work on time, attended classes reliably, etc. I had a part-time job throughout all of my program. In addition to that, there were multiple opportunities for additional funding through awards and summer teaching. That said, I was probably working 60-70 hours a week total. Would not recommend. And not an ideal way to spend much of your 30's. Although being able to pay my rent and groceries each month, and even do take out, without significant concern was pretty invaluable.