Dentist Pay

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heyyah

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Does anyone really know how much dentists make on average? And I am not talking abou the specialist who makes 500k or more. I am talking about an average general dentist? Is the ADA figure of an average of $172k correct? I am wondering because on Dentaltown many dentists say there are dentists who make only 50-75k. If you are taking out 200-300k in student loans, 50-75k is not going to cut it. I was assuming a general dentist would make about 140-170k depending on your location? Does that sound right at all?
Thanks. I would appreciate any input from anyone who might really know.

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heyyah said:
I am wondering because on Dentaltown many dentists say there are dentists who make only 50-75k.

Those numbers would be considered very low, even for a first-year graduate.

And I don't doubt that some practicing dentists do make those figures, however they probably do so by working less than 10 hours a week.
 
You really have to consider Gross vs. Net income. The dentists that I know Gross nearly 350K a year, but after a 60% overhead (insurance included), they only take home around 140K Net (which they then blow on sports cars and candy).

Army dentists currently make ~75K a year, but they also don't have the same monetary burdens that other dental students may have.

I think 75K a year would be fine in terms of paying off 300K in loans if you only lived on Ramen noodles toothpaste. Or if you just lived with your parents.
 
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How much you will make REALLY depends on a multitude of variables. Are you paid per diem, a % of production, a % of collection, or both? If you work on a % as I have in the past, a lot of it depends on what kind of relationship you have with your patients, and whether or not they feel comfortable enough to go with your recommended treatment plan. Is the practice a drill, fill, and bill type, or is does it have a different focus? Furthermore, are you fast and efficient, or does it take you an hour to do that class II amalgam? What is the scope of your practice skill set? Do you do very little endo, or are you fairly decent at straight forward molar endo? Are you good with extractions? Is your practice philosophy conservative or do you recommend a lot of indirect restorations? Where you decide to job hunt also makes a HUGE difference. For example, southern Cal is a very tight market and since it is a practice owner's market, they have quite a number of potential associates to choose from. The higher quality practices that are less clinic like usually find their associates through word of mouth, where the associate was recommended by a friend/colleague.
The ADA avg is probably a collection of random statistics from practice owners. There will be a bunch of dentists that make less and those that make more that don't even participate in the statistical study. But as an associate, the income bracketing is probably a lot different.
When you get out of school/residency, you can choose several paths. If you elect to try your hand at a 'chop shop', where there is a lot of capitation and where it is primarily HMO driven, be prepared to work fast, way too fast to really control quality. They will pay you a steady per diem and if you work 5 days a week, you can usually make near 100K or a little more annually. But just to keep up with speed and not get fired, there is a good chance that you will develop a lot of bad practice habits just to keep pace, and these habits will no doubtedly become ingrained. I know someone that spent the last year working this type of job, and although he wasn't slow to begin with, he found himself cutting way too many corners and practicing below standard of care because he found everybody else in the office practicing this way. If only I could elaborate on some of the horror stories. Although he thinks he is a super fast stud these days, I certainly wouldn't be caught dead as a patient in his chair. If and when he decides to open or run his own office, these habits will simply be an extension of what he has become.
If you are willing to take less money and let your speed and skills develop progressively under a high quality practice that isn't a mill, you run a better chance of becoming a more highly skilled practioner in the long run. Be it a good mentor or the extra time to learn about and perform a procedure correctly, it can definitely benefit your long term goals to focus on quality not speed. It's an even bigger bonus if you get good at the more lucrative procedures. If you work for a %, you won't feel the need to treat just to produce and you can let your conscience be your guide. If you don't cut that crown prep where a filling would have been fine, your boss won't think you're being lazy since you also didn't get compensated for it. You can take your time, treat only the problems that require the appropriate treatment, and do it the right way. But if you are being paid by the day, you will find yourself doing a lot of procedures where you never even previously saw or treatment planned that patient in the first place. You may not even feel that those procedures are necessary, but you will either end up doing them, or most likely get laid off for trying to develop a sound philosophy and conscience. Doesn't that suck? You are getting paid no matter what, therefore the practice owner will push you to generate revenue. As a % type associate, you will be 'slower' your first few years, especially since MOST of the patients have been coming to the practice for years, and they don't want to switch dentists. So it isn't unrealistic to be making 60-85K a year in the beginning.
So how much you make really depends a lot on what type of practice you land. Also, don't underestimate the area you decide to practice. Arizona and Nevada are said to have excellent opportunities while a place like California is extremely scarce. As far as paying off 200-300k in loans, consolidation or progressive increases in repayments can work wonders for a tight budget. for example, if you have $150k in loans and were to pay it off on a 10 year plan, your payments would be ballpark- $1500. If you consolidate and lock for 30 years, especially at these rates, you can drop your payment to about $600 a month. That should be managable for almost anyone with a pulse that is practicing dentistry. Plus, in 20-30 years, $600 inflated will put an even smaller dent into the cash flow. So don't worry too much about the BIG number of 200-300k. Although it is a burden, it will be managable, as long as you work hard and don't plan on having an extravagant lifestyle too soon after graduation.
 
So which is generally better a % of production or a % of collection?
 
smiledds said:
So which is generally better a % of production or a % of collection?

I'm trying to remember the threads that Dr. Jeff and others have previously posted about this. I think they said % of production is better, although I guess that would depend on the types of cases that are available. Other practices may have close to 100% collection, in which case maybe that would be better.

Where are Jeff and our other dentists?
 
Could somebody explain what percentage of collection means?
 
Collection means that you get paid based on the procedures you perform AND make sure the patient pays for. If you just did production, then you could make loads of money, be paid by the dentist, but if the patient doesn't pay your mentor is up **it creek on those procedures.

All percentages and benefits being equal, production is the better option. Less stress of making sure the patient pays. However, like Gavin said, a 100% collection rate is very good. It's almost as if you had your own practice, and you develop good work habits beyond performing procedures. However, I've never heard of any practice offering 100% collection rates.
 
If you do go with a percentage, what are options for calculating your compensation?

For example, what about:
Scenario 1: 40% of collections (not production) minus 50% of lab fees
Scenario 2: 35% of collections, no deduction for lab fees
Scenario 3: 40% of collections, minus lab fee, minus assistant salary(ies)

Etc.

Thanks!


bcDDS said:
How much you will make REALLY depends on a multitude of variables. Are you paid per diem, a % of production, a % of collection, or both? If you work on a % as I have in the past, a lot of it depends on what kind of relationship you have with your patients, and whether or not they feel comfortable enough to go with your recommended treatment plan. Is the practice a drill, fill, and bill type, or is does it have a different focus? Furthermore, are you fast and efficient, or does it take you an hour to do that class II amalgam? What is the scope of your practice skill set? Do you do very little endo, or are you fairly decent at straight forward molar endo? Are you good with extractions? Is your practice philosophy conservative or do you recommend a lot of indirect restorations? Where you decide to job hunt also makes a HUGE difference. For example, southern Cal is a very tight market and since it is a practice owner's market, they have quite a number of potential associates to choose from. The higher quality practices that are less clinic like usually find their associates through word of mouth, where the associate was recommended by a friend/colleague.
The ADA avg is probably a collection of random statistics from practice owners. There will be a bunch of dentists that make less and those that make more that don't even participate in the statistical study. But as an associate, the income bracketing is probably a lot different.
When you get out of school/residency, you can choose several paths. If you elect to try your hand at a 'chop shop', where there is a lot of capitation and where it is primarily HMO driven, be prepared to work fast, way too fast to really control quality. They will pay you a steady per diem and if you work 5 days a week, you can usually make near 100K or a little more annually. But just to keep up with speed and not get fired, there is a good chance that you will develop a lot of bad practice habits just to keep pace, and these habits will no doubtedly become ingrained. I know someone that spent the last year working this type of job, and although he wasn't slow to begin with, he found himself cutting way too many corners and practicing below standard of care because he found everybody else in the office practicing this way. If only I could elaborate on some of the horror stories. Although he thinks he is a super fast stud these days, I certainly wouldn't be caught dead as a patient in his chair. If and when he decides to open or run his own office, these habits will simply be an extension of what he has become.
If you are willing to take less money and let your speed and skills develop progressively under a high quality practice that isn't a mill, you run a better chance of becoming a more highly skilled practioner in the long run. Be it a good mentor or the extra time to learn about and perform a procedure correctly, it can definitely benefit your long term goals to focus on quality not speed. It's an even bigger bonus if you get good at the more lucrative procedures. If you work for a %, you won't feel the need to treat just to produce and you can let your conscience be your guide. If you don't cut that crown prep where a filling would have been fine, your boss won't think you're being lazy since you also didn't get compensated for it. You can take your time, treat only the problems that require the appropriate treatment, and do it the right way. But if you are being paid by the day, you will find yourself doing a lot of procedures where you never even previously saw or treatment planned that patient in the first place. You may not even feel that those procedures are necessary, but you will either end up doing them, or most likely get laid off for trying to develop a sound philosophy and conscience. Doesn't that suck? You are getting paid no matter what, therefore the practice owner will push you to generate revenue. As a % type associate, you will be 'slower' your first few years, especially since MOST of the patients have been coming to the practice for years, and they don't want to switch dentists. So it isn't unrealistic to be making 60-85K a year in the beginning.
So how much you make really depends a lot on what type of practice you land. Also, don't underestimate the area you decide to practice. Arizona and Nevada are said to have excellent opportunities while a place like California is extremely scarce. As far as paying off 200-300k in loans, consolidation or progressive increases in repayments can work wonders for a tight budget. for example, if you have $150k in loans and were to pay it off on a 10 year plan, your payments would be ballpark- $1500. If you consolidate and lock for 30 years, especially at these rates, you can drop your payment to about $600 a month. That should be managable for almost anyone with a pulse that is practicing dentistry. Plus, in 20-30 years, $600 inflated will put an even smaller dent into the cash flow. So don't worry too much about the BIG number of 200-300k. Although it is a burden, it will be managable, as long as you work hard and don't plan on having an extravagant lifestyle too soon after graduation.
 
Thanks BC DDS....

My dentist said that for a graduating dentist working 3 days you can expect a minimum of 80K Canadian and 5 days, 125K. Also, my bank uses a projected income of 150K for grduating students to determine their line of credit rates.
 
ItsGavinC said:
I'm trying to remember the threads that Dr. Jeff and others have previously posted about this. I think they said % of production is better, although I guess that would depend on the types of cases that are available. Other practices may have close to 100% collection, in which case maybe that would be better.

Where are Jeff and our other dentists?

If you can get a contract where your pay is based on production, DO IT!!!!!!!! Plain and simple, you do the work, the office bills for it, and at the next cycle, you get paid for whatever the percentage of production is that your getting(i.e. if you bill $10,000 in a week and you get paid 35% of production, you get a pay check for $3500 - and then uncle sam and that FICA guy take their parts :( :scared: :eek: ) You don't worry about will that $$ ever be collected by the office.

Now, most of the time(and all the time if you're the owner) you get paid based on collections(after all if you don't collect it, how will you get paid :confused: ) Basically put, if you do $10,000 worth of dentistry in a week, you may collect $1,000 in cash on the day of service, and then the other $9,000 will trickle in based on insurance company processing (anywhere from 2 to 10+ weeks), patient payment plans (who knows how long that may take), collection agency results (now you finally getting paid for something you may have done 6 months before), and then some of that production (hopefully a very, very small percent), may ultimately be written off the books as uncollectable due to loss of patient contact, death, bankruptcy or contractual write offs based on certain insurance plans that you may participate with. After all that's been collected for a week, then you get your percentage and uncle sam gets his.

Now initially, production may seem far superior, but it can have its drawbacks too. For example, if you take a vacation week, you haven't produced anything and you don't get paid :( , whereas with collections, you can take a vacation week and money from previous weeks work will be collected and you'll get paid (the associate that was working for my partner before I joined the practice a few years ago was receiving paychecks of varying amounts for 8 months after her last day as the money was finally collected). Collections is also interesting since your never really quite sure how your pay for the week will be until all the money for the week is entered (some weeks you may get a HUGE pay check, others not so large), but after you've done a few months of work you typically have alot of money coming in via the various sources each week and have a rather steady paycheck. The first few months though with collections, your paychecks may be a little thin depending on your offices billing/payment policies.

Bottom line, as a new associate, if you can get paid based on production, do it, you'll get a larger weekly paycheck from week 1, and you don't have to worry about will I ever get paid for this procedure. But, as a future practice owner, you'll be all about collections.
 
Oh, and also, since I have a very minimal knowledge of billing and what a typical day of procedures is like, how unfathomable is it that a new dentist (1-2 years out) *could* produce $10,000 in a week?

In your experience, what would an average new dentist produce in a week in an average practice in an average city (etc., etc., you know the drill...average.)?
 
ItsGavinC said:
Sweeeeet response. Thanks for the heads-up. :D Now can you help me pass Part I?

It still stands out in my mind when I took part I that there were many questions about Gray and White Ramii :confused: :eek: (I took my part 1 in '95) Other than that, there was a decent percentage of questions that were on the Decks, or old tests.

Bottom line, you'll all get hung up on 1 or two questions :eek: :confused: :scared: , but don't let it phase you, since you'll all know the vast majority of the answers even before you read the choices :clap: Make suree though that everyone's that's taking them on Monday gives themself Sunday afternoon/evening off from studying, you'll be alot fresher come Monday AM and even though you may not think "anything", you'll do fine
 
ItsGavinC said:
Oh, and also, since I have a very minimal knowledge of billing and what a typical day of procedures is like, how unfathomable is it that a new dentist (1-2 years out) *could* produce $10,000 in a week?

In your experience, what would an average new dentist produce in a week in an average practice in an average city (etc., etc., you know the drill...average.)?

Depending on the geographic area that your practice is located in, $10,000 a week in production is quite a reasonable estimate (depending on how many days a week your working). That's about $2000 a day in production, and the way that I look at it in my office (an 8 hour day), is that by doing 1 big $$ procedure (i.e. a crown, an endo, a denture), I've billed around $1000 in an hours chairtime, and then I've got 7 more hours to "find" another $1000 in production. (real easy if you do a filling or two on some people, a few sealants here and there, some hygiene checks, etc). Once your practice starts growing, you'll end up with a couple of big ticket procedures each day, and you'll be billing on average alot more than $2000/day. You may still bill $10,000 a week, your week will just be 3 days, not 5! :D
 
ItsGavinC said:
Oh, and also, since I have a very minimal knowledge of billing and what a typical day of procedures is like, how unfathomable is it that a new dentist (1-2 years out) *could* produce $10,000 in a week?

In your experience, what would an average new dentist produce in a week in an average practice in an average city (etc., etc., you know the drill...average.)?


Gavin, are u kidding me? U don't know how to produce $10,000/wk? Very easy, you do 10 crowns/wk, that's 2 crowns/day. Or you do 5 crowns/wk, some deep clean, 10 fillings, etc..., 2 dentures. That's 10K/wk gross. I think that's a very easy goal for a new starter. Assuming you are super slow, and takes 3hrs to do a crown, you can do one crown, one deep clean in the morning. Then, a denture in the afternoon, plus some fillings, or some endo? How hard can that be to make 10K/wk?
 
tinker bell said:
Gavin, are u kidding me? U don't know how to produce $10,000/wk? Very easy, you do 10 crowns/wk, that's 2 crowns/day. Or you do 5 crowns/wk, some deep clean, 10 fillings, etc..., 2 dentures. That's 10K/wk gross. I think that's a very easy goal for a new starter. Assuming you are super slow, and takes 3hrs to do a crown, you can do one crown, one deep clean in the morning. Then, a denture in the afternoon, plus some fillings, or some endo? How hard can that be to make 10K/wk?

I know, I know. So based on that, if a newly graduated dentist can get in at 32-35% production somewhere, then it isn't difficult to bring home $120,000 after taxes.
 
tinker bell said:
Gavin, are u kidding me? U don't know how to produce $10,000/wk? Very easy, you do 10 crowns/wk, that's 2 crowns/day. Or you do 5 crowns/wk, some deep clean, 10 fillings, etc..., 2 dentures. That's 10K/wk gross. I think that's a very easy goal for a new starter. Assuming you are super slow, and takes 3hrs to do a crown, you can do one crown, one deep clean in the morning. Then, a denture in the afternoon, plus some fillings, or some endo? How hard can that be to make 10K/wk?

Hmm..just for the record, it you're lucky enough to get things handed to you on a silver platter, kudos. For example, if you get a position as an associate right out of school in a practice that charges $1000 a crown, you're up there floating on rare air. Assumuing you are one of the chosen few to land such a position, it's not easy to fill up a schedule in such a high level practice. The greater majority of the patients already come on a regular basis to see Dr. X (practice owner), and they ONLY want to see Dr. X. In such a practice, new patients usually trickle in by word of mouth based on reputation, the reputation of Dr. X. that is well established. Even if you are fortunate enough to have a long time patient allow you to examine and treat them, they are probably on a very stable recall schedule with little in the way of needed procedures. Starting to get the picture? If producing 10k a week were so easy, your production alone as an associate would be 520k a year! That's the kind of revenue an established practice generates - total. Speedwise, $10,000 a week isn't the issue, but getting the procedures on the schedule as a new associate is a different story. So just how hard is it to make 10K a week? As an established practice owner, reasonable. As a new associate? Are you kidding me??!?!?!
 
bcDDS said:
Speedwise, $10,000 a week isn't the issue, but getting the procedures on the schedule as a new associate is a different story. So just how hard is it to make 10K a week? As an established practice owner, reasonable. As a new associate? Are you kidding me??!?!?!



I would agree with this. After a very few months your speed will be enough to produce $2000 /day easily. The problem is filling the schedule. Part of that is getting the experience to diagnose and treatment plan larger cases but also most senior docs are not operating at 200% capacity when they take on an associate. Meaning you won't drop in to a schedule that's booked out 3 weeks with productive procedures. To some extent you have to build a practice within the practice. Start off seeing the new patients, emergencies, and the PITA's the boss doesn't want to deal with and gradually build up a clientel.

Also I would be wary of being paid on collections. Dr. Jeff I'm sure would treat each of you fairly and honestly but many of you will find a senior doc that does not have your best interests in mind. You are simply the next body in a long line of associates s/he wants to make money off of. Why would I want my pay to be based on the front desk person's ability to do their job? Especially when they don't answer to me (i.e. I can't fire them). If the practice has such loose financial policies that they don't feel comfortable paying you on production I'd keep looking. It's too easy to send the possible deadbeats to the associate and if the boss gets paid great, if not at least they don't have to pay you.

I also wouldn't work without a daily minimum at least in the beginning for the same reason. What's their incentive to keep me booked with "good" procedures when someone else signs their check?

JMHO
Rob
 
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