Dentistry loans and saturation

[ScienceOSU]

I have been thinking about dentistry and had a few questions . I am not knowledgable on the subject. Dental school is very very expensive so I know everyone takes out loans and needs to pay them within a number of years. So let's say I decided to take a loan payment plan during my years at dental school and then graduate. What if I have the salary to pay it all of within 1,2, or 3 years, because I would be living with parents( I am fortunate enough) can I pay it all off within 1 or 2 years assuming I have the money or do I need to keep paying for let's say 30 years however much the contract was for my loans. Also is it hard to find a job as a dentist as soon as you graduate these days?
Thank you

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[arkenstone]

It's not hard to find a job if you're willing to move anywhere within a couple hours. If you have a specific place in mind you want to work it may take you longer, but generally speaking dentists have one of the lowest unemployment rates of any profession.

Considering that you can get a dinky studio apartment for $7,000 a year in an average town, though, I wouldn't live with my parents as a professional adult. But it's fine and your choice.

There is no minimum time for repayment. Unless there's some weird loan I've never heard of, you can pay off any loan as fast as you'd like.

 

[cacajuate]

You're going to live with your parents after school?

 

[ajj70]

I agree, realistically, there is no reason why you can't pay off your loans in just a few years if you wanted to. Whether its a good financial move or not depends on the market conditions and interest rates. I don't know about living with parents after school but if it works out for all concerned, ok, but living frugally for a few years is always a good idea.

 

[distressstudent]

If you plan on living with your parents then you better hope your parents live in an area where they pay grads well. There's no real pressing need to pay your student loans in 1-2 years. You're gonna be in "debt" for a long time b/w mortgages and practice loans (if you ever plan to open your own/partner w/ someone). My advice is to not have unrealistic expectation of what the profession is going to be like. Are you young OP? Just curious

a good read for you since this seems to be what you're gunning for: http://www.dentaltown.com/dentaltown/article.aspx?i=273&aid=3696
but beware that the author writes with a bit of hyperbole...

 

[deleted390966]

You're going to live with your parents after school?

What's wrong about that? Especially if it saves money.

 

[Incis0r]

I agree.

 

[rendal]

You can certainly pay off your loans in a few years, but you would have to be putting all of your earnings into loan repayments. When you think about food, car payments, gas, etc., you will most likely need to be paying for SOMETHING regularly unless your parents are willing to fully support you. For most people, it would be impossible.

The advice I was given was to choose the 25-30 year repayment option and just pay as much as you can each month after all of your other expenses are paid off. If your repayment plan has you paying $3,500 per month minimum and you feel comfortable paying $5,000, go for it. It will only help you pay off the loan faster and avoid extra interest.

 

[ScienceOSU]

If you plan on living with your parents then you better hope your parents live in an area where they pay grads well. There's no real pressing need to pay your student loans in 1-2 years. You're gonna be in "debt" for a long time b/w mortgages and practice loans (if you ever plan to open your own/partner w/ someone). My advice is to not have unrealistic expectation of what the profession is going to be like. Are you young OP? Just curious

a good read for you since this seems to be what you're gunning for: http://www.dentaltown.com/dentaltown/article.aspx?i=273&aid=3696
but beware that the author writes with a bit of hyperbole...

Yea I'm 19 years old. I can see myself living with my parents till I'm 25 or 26 I know so many people who do that doesn't really bother me. I realize people are in debt with mortgage car payments etc for a long time but it's just my perspective, I don't want to continue paying school loans with a family and house, if I can just do this.
Thanks for the insight

 

[cacajuate]

What's wrong about that? Especially if it saves money.

Because you are going to have to leave the tit sooner or later.

 

[DentalDoge]

Because you are going to have to leave the tit sooner or later.

Because living in an apartment is expensive as hell. In our gap years, my friend and I are both living at home while working full-time jobs. I can see a helluva more dough than my friend living in an apartment.

Until I get the HPSP, I cant ignore any measures to save money. Especially with the financial crisis most of us are going into.

Though I do agree with @distressstudent living with your parents would probably not be as professional and you'll only be tied to where ever your parents live. And location is not one of the things you want to have no options.

 

[cacajuate]

Because living in an apartment is expensive as hell. In our gap years, my friend and I are both living at home while working full-time jobs. I can see a helluva more dough than my friend living in an apartment.

Until I get the HPSP, I cant ignore any measures to save money. Especially with the financial crisis most of us are going into.

Though I do agree with @distressstudent living with your parents would probably not be as professional and you'll only be tied to where ever your parents live. And location is not one of the things you want to have no options.

Living with parents during a gap year and living with your parents after professional school are completely different things.

 

[sjv]

What if I have the salary to pay it all of within 1,2, or 3 years, because I would be living with parents( I am fortunate enough) can I pay it all off within 1 or 2 years assuming I have the money or do I need to keep paying for let's say 30 years however much the contract was for my loans.

You can pay your loans off as quickly as you want (pay more than minimum payment) or extend it as long as you need (30 years).

 

[DentalDoge]

Living with parents during a gap year and living with your parents after professional school are completely different things.

And I addressed that in my last response. I dont think it's smart to live with your parents after DS since you dont want being tied to location be a hinder to getting a good job. Whatever you think you're saving at that point living with your parents won't make a dent in your loans.

 

[TwentyTwelve]

Living with your parents ties you to a specific location...being tied to a specific locations decreases your job options...decreased job options means lower on average salary...lower salary means lower potential to pay down your debt.

The average dental student comes out these days with 350K in debt (average of private and public school data) so if you landed a good associate gig @ 120K a year, 80K after taxes then even if you lived with your parents you would not be able to pay down the average debt with an average associate gig in 4 years assuming you were putting everything after taxes toward principle

 

[FOX_ONE]

lol i can imagine living in my moms basement playing cod on my off days and going to the office to work and comign back home to her making me some CHICKEN TENDIESSS

 

[ScienceOSU]

Living with your parents ties you to a specific location...being tied to a specific locations decreases your job options...decreased job options means lower on average salary...lower salary means lower potential to pay down your debt.

The average dental student comes out these days with 350K in debt (average of private and public school data) so if you landed a good associate gig @ 120K a year, 80K after taxes then even if you lived with your parents you would not be able to pay down the average debt with an average associate gig in 4 years assuming you were putting everything after taxes toward principle

350k is a bit much, for my in state school I am looking at 180k-200k, including tuition and academic expenses not including housing obviously.

 

[TwentyTwelve]

Its not too much. You didn't include living expenses which conservatively would be $15,000 a year X 4years = $60,000. Add that to the lowball of $180,000 plus interest accrued over the course of 4 years and you are looking at $260,000 in debt not included any GRP/AEGD interest accrued or specialty. The top cost private schools are 500K+ today, not to mention how much they will be in the future...and you ASSUME that you will get into your state school. (500K + 260K)/2= 380K...so my estimate was actually lower than the average.

So...I will say again, you will not pay back $260,000 after 3 years at 80K after taxes even if you put all your money towards the loan and your mommy and daddy pay for your cell phone, car insurance, rent, food, clothing etc.. Please do not be so naive towards hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt...that mentality has gotten so many of my dental friends who have already graduated and who will graduate in serious financial stress and difficulty.

 

[ScienceOSU]

everyone who graduates is

Its not too much. You didn't include living expenses which conservatively would be $15,000 a year X 4years = $60,000. Add that to the lowball of $180,000 plus interest accrued over the course of 4 years and you are looking at $260,000 in debt not included any GRP/AEGD interest accrued or specialty. The top cost private schools are 500K+ today, not to mention how much they will be in the future...and you ASSUME that you will get into your state school. (500K + 260K)/2= 380K...so my estimate was actually lower than the average.

So...I will say again, you will not pay back $260,000 after 3 years at 80K after taxes even if you put all your money towards the loan and your mommy and daddy pay for your cell phone, car insurance, rent, food, clothing etc.. Please do not be so naive towards hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt...that mentality has gotten so many of my dental friends who have already graduated and who will graduate in serious financial stress and difficulty.

everyone who graduates dental school has financial stress, anyone with 250k debt will have stress. lol I like how you said mommy and daddy btw

 

[FOX_ONE]

try 10-15 years of debt bro

 

[Faux]

One might argue that you should save that money and have a down payment for a pratice. Make minimal payments until you have that going up and going and then pay even more towards it( Turing 30 years t0 10-20 years). Salary in private pratice can range from 150-300k. This is what is called "opportunity costs"

 

[BYU4you]

Your parents are okay with this?

 

[ScienceOSU]

One might argue that you should save that money and have a down payment for a pratice. Make minimal payments until you have that going up and going and then pay even more towards it( Turing 30 years t0 10-20 years). Salary in private pratice can range from 150-300k. This is what is called "opportunity costs"

This what I am worried or confused about is owning a practice. The obvious questions is where to start and etc. I am hope some clinics or companies are just hiring dentists to be honest lol

 

[DentalDoge]

This what I am worried or confused about is owning a practice. The obvious questions is where to start and etc. I am hope some clinics or companies are just hiring dentists to be honest lol

And they do. That's why there are associates.

 

[thesellsword]

DO NOT GO INTO THIS FIELD. It's awful, you will not live comfortably at all. As for your loans, you'll probably pay them off and live like your friends who didn't go to medical/dental school...by the time you're 40. I doubt you'll be driving a nice car(think Benz C-class or BMW 3 series, which aren't even THAT nice) by the time you're at least 40. Probably when you'll get a decent house too. Of course, you could do 60 hours per week of you find work(also hard and unlikely) but you'll pay for that with disabilities and back pain that won't go away without the use of heavy opioids by the time you retire, thereby nullifying your retirement savings. From the many, many dentists I've spoken to, breaking even 100k as late as 5 years out of dental school is HIGHLY unlikely as an associate unless you do 60+ hours a week...again, if you're willing to pay for it with back problems by the time you are 35-40 years old. The field is super saturated. I've spoken to at least 30-35 dentists, both old and new about it. In total, maybe about 10 of them had good news or so-so outlooks regarding this field. I'm only in dental school myself right now, but I can tell you I go home feeling like a crook everyday. I push treatments on my patients that they could do without for many years, just so I can get the procedures I need to graduate. Oh and guess what, the boards you take to become certified in your area, like the NERB/ADEX or WREB, it's the same thing. You do fillings on teeth with lesions that had you just watched and encouraged better hygiene and fluoride, would've healed on their own more likely than not. Maybe many of you don't have morals or ethics, but personally for me, I lose sleep over treating people and charging them their hard earned money for "treatments" they could do without. Never mind that the "Dr." front of my name doesn't mean a thing...I regularly speak to my friends in medicine and my knowledge level is severely lacking about the vast majority of medical topics, and I go to an Ivy League dental school and am not a poor student by any stretch. I strongly encourage anyone who seeks satisfaction from their career, as well as a comfortable lifestyle to look elsewhere for fulfillment and to provide service to your fellow being. Sadly the number of dentists out there with morals and ethics is astonishingly low. I'm gonna graduate with this DMD degree, but I am never going to advertise it, and I sure as hell will do everything I can to influence my loved ones to steer clear of this field. I've seen better morals and ethics among drug dealers(and yes, fwiw I have had friends who went that way as well).

 

[LuckBloodandSweat]

Ah one of these people again. Great.

 

[8_man]

Well shiet, guess I gotta go back to pole dancing.

 

[thesellsword]

Lovely, more egotistical, self-righteous emotional folk who don't read the full response. I won't deign someone as blinded as you are by well thought out reasoning because it is apparent that your arrogance and ignorance will blind any discussion.

 

[zhngbrg]

Lovely, more egotistical, self-righteous emotional folk who don't read the full response. I won't deign someone as blinded as you are by well thought out reasoning because it is apparent that your arrogance and ignorance will blind any discussion.

If you want rational discourse you probably shouldn't preface your post with "DO NOT GO INTO THIS FIELD" on a forum full of people dedicating their lives to go into this field...lmao

Furthermore, it's 2016, the golden days are over and every field sucks. As a dentist, at least you have the luxury of not worrying about when the next recession/corporate scandal/whatever makes your entire company obsolete and causes another round of layoffs, forcing you to send 1000s of copies of your resume into HR black holes, only to have 99% of them tossed in the trash so they can hire the boss' son's friend's brother. And it does sadden me to hear that dental schools condone treatment pushing, but honestly that's small potatoes compared to corporate ethics.

Not even sure why you're listing inadequate medical knowledge as a con unless you're really that insecure about med students making fun of you...physicians are required to be a walking encyclopedia of medicine as part of their job, dentists mainly worry about the mouth. Ask a physician to do a simple wax-up or crown prep and they'd probably **** the bed too but I doubt they're losing any sleep over that.

Finally, since you said you attend an Ivy League I'm going to guess you attend Columbia, in which case the majority of the dentists you've interacted with are probably NYC dentists, in which case I'm not surprised that their outlook and salary are so gloomy. I've seen dentist's offices in NYC and most of them are about as big as a walk-in closet. If you wanted to be a big baller and drive around a beamer in Manhattan then you're right, you definitely entered the wrong field and you should've sold your soul to the big banks so that you can be one of their IB or high finance cronies. Otherwise, in any other location your projection of sub-100k salary is needlessly alarmist and disingenuous since that's probably around the bottom 20th percentile of dental salaries, which includes ancient dentists working twice a week so that they can pay their country club dues.

 

[Incis0r]

Finally, since you said you attend an Ivy League I'm going to guess you attend Columbia

From his posting history, it appears that he is at Penn.

 

[8_man]

Lovely, more egotistical, self-righteous emotional folk who don't read the full response. I won't deign someone as blinded as you are by well thought out reasoning because it is apparent that your arrogance and ignorance will blind any discussion.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with everything you're saying. But everyone's situation is different, and the grass is always greener...

 

[thesellsword]

If you want rational discourse you probably shouldn't preface your post with "DO NOT GO INTO THIS FIELD" on a forum full of people dedicating their lives to go into this field...lmao

Furthermore, it's 2016, the golden days are over and every field sucks. As a dentist, at least you have the luxury of not worrying about when the next recession/corporate scandal/whatever makes your entire company obsolete and causes another round of layoffs, forcing you to send 1000s of copies of your resume into HR black holes, only to have 99% of them tossed in the trash so they can hire the boss' son's friend's brother. And it does sadden me to hear that dental schools condone treatment pushing, but honestly that's small potatoes compared to corporate ethics.

Not even sure why you're listing inadequate medical knowledge as a con unless you're really that insecure about med students making fun of you...physicians are required to be a walking encyclopedia of medicine as part of their job, dentists mainly worry about the mouth. Ask a physician to do a simple wax-up or crown prep and they'd probably **** the bed too but I doubt they're losing any sleep over that.

Finally, since you said you attend an Ivy League I'm going to guess you attend Columbia, in which case the majority of the dentists you've interacted with are probably NYC dentists, in which case I'm not surprised that their outlook and salary are so gloomy. I've seen dentist's offices in NYC and most of them are about as big as a walk-in closet. If you wanted to be a big baller and drive around a beamer in Manhattan then you're right, you definitely entered the wrong field and you should've sold your soul to the big banks so that you can be one of their IB or high finance cronies. Otherwise, in any other location your projection of sub-100k salary is needlessly alarmist and disingenuous since that's probably around the bottom 20th percentile of dental salaries, which includes ancient dentists working twice a week so that they can pay their country club dues.

I understand where you are coming from, and i have no problem agreeing to disagree with you. I have spoken to dentists across the east coast, NY, NJ, PA, DE, DC. Yes, you're right, many of the unhappy ones are close to NYC, but what got me were the many that weren't close to big cities, and still barely breaking 200k after overhead and all thrown in.

As for your 120k figure, if you're talking corporate that 120-150 isn't going to last unless you work like a dog and push treatment on people that don't really need that treatment. Now you all may be ok with treating people to pay off your loans and get the Benz or what have you...but personally, my ethics don't leave me feeling good about that. You can call me a pansy or whatever, but I would be pissed and resentful if someone made me get treatment I didn't need and I had to foot the bill. Not to mention lie through my teeth. If you're ok with that, that's your choice. I can't say I respect that behavior.
As for the whole thing about corporate...this is just the normal liberal/healthcare professional bias. I deal with that with my relatives in the healthcare profession as well. The assumption that if you work in a bank or boutique you're automatically ripping people off or your job is insecure. I mean, do you even know how many companies went bankrupt recently for these scandals? If you take the ones that did, over the total number of companies out there, you'll find that the number is quite small. Regardless, agree to disagree. You think it's a great field with great income and you have no problem ripping people off and getting them to do treatment they don't need, good for you. Or maybe you live in an area where everyone just happens to need those "high yield" procedures, which is even better. I'm not here to dissuade people who are already in the field or determined to be there. In fact, I'm
Only here to share my honest experiences, and if that encourages someone to go into the field, good for him/her. If it dissuades him/her, well, obviously I would be more pleased with that outcome. In any case, it's no skin off my back. I've already lost most of my sleep thanks to the shady ethics I have to practice everyday so I ain't losing that either.

 

[thesellsword]

From his posting history, it appears that he is at Penn.

Why is where I go to school relevant all of a sudden? My Pokémon could kick your Pokémon's behind any day. Lol

 

[zhngbrg]

I understand where you are coming from, and i have no problem agreeing to disagree with you. I have spoken to dentists across the east coast, NY, NJ, PA, DE, DC. Yes, you're right, many of the unhappy ones are close to NYC, but what got me were the many that weren't close to big cities, and still barely breaking 200k after overhead and all thrown in.

As for your 120k figure, if you're talking corporate that 120-150 isn't going to last unless you work like a dog and push treatment on people that don't really need that treatment. Now you all may be ok with treating people to pay off your loans and get the Benz or what have you...but personally, my ethics don't leave me feeling good about that. You can call me a pansy or whatever, but I would be pissed and resentful if someone made me get treatment I didn't need and I had to foot the bill. Not to mention lie through my teeth. If you're ok with that, that's your choice. I can't say I respect that behavior.
As for the whole thing about corporate...this is just the normal liberal/healthcare professional bias. I deal with that with my relatives in the healthcare profession as well. The assumption that if you work in a bank or boutique you're automatically ripping people off or your job is insecure. I mean, do you even know how many companies went bankrupt recently for these scandals? If you take the ones that did, over the total number of companies out there, you'll find that the number is quite small. Regardless, agree to disagree. You think it's a great field with great income and you have no problem ripping people off and getting them to do treatment they don't need, good for you. Or maybe you live in an area where everyone just happens to need those "high yield" procedures, which is even better. I'm not here to dissuade people who are already in the field or determined to be there. In fact, I'm
Only here to share my honest experiences, and if that encourages someone to go into the field, good for him/her. If it dissuades him/her, well, obviously I would be more pleased with that outcome. In any case, it's no skin off my back. I've already lost most of my sleep thanks to the shady ethics I have to practice everyday so I ain't losing that either.

You say agree to disagree and then insinuate that I'm a crook for preferring dentistry...how mature.

"Barely breaking 200k" gets to you? Seriously man? Sounds to me like ethics isn't really your main concern. I can understand wanting to dissuade naive pre-dents chasing that dream of the millionaire dentist who only has to go in 4 days a week, but don't pound your chest about losing sleep over ethics and then complain about a >200k income. You're chasing a unicorn if you think there's an ethical career out there which pays more than 200k/yr while working less than 50-60 hrs/wk.

 

[thesellsword]

You say agree to disagree and then insinuate that I'm a crook for preferring dentistry...how mature.

"Barely breaking 200k" gets to you? Seriously man? Sounds to me like ethics isn't really your main concern. I can understand wanting to dissuade naive pre-dents chasing that dream of the millionaire dentist who only has to go in 4 days a week, but don't pound your chest about losing sleep over ethics and then complain about a >200k income. You're chasing a unicorn if you think there's an ethical career out there which pays more than 200k/yr while working less than 50-60 hrs/wk.

There are plenty. Think actuary. Think running any grocery store or restaurant. If you sit and think a bit, plenty of careers/businesses that don't gip people will come to mind. Not insinuating you are a crook per se, I did say there's a chance that you are genuinely blessed and the people in your area do actually all require those high yield procedures. There is always a chance. I don't claim to know it all. Not pounding my chest. But it is a reality, if you want to attain that 200k+ mark, it is HIGHLY unlikely you can do that without doing unethical/shady things. That is all I'm saying. Not everything necessarily, but definitely a lot, if dental school is any indication of that. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I am not. That has been MY experience to date. Perhaps yours is different. Perhaps your school has/had no shortage of patients that needed crown or bridge or denture work, or perhaps you went to a school that didn't have minimum requirements in terms of #s of procedures to complete before graduating. Maybe your NERB/ADEX lesion patients all genuinely had those lesions and actually needed to be operated on. If so, good for you man/woman. I'm not so lucky. And I've had to do shady things, as have a high proportion of my classmates that I have spoken to.

I won't indulge your desire for combat regarding that salary claim. I merely mentioned that for naive predents to realize that if they think that this field has a comfortable living, it doesn't...or else that "comfort", is attained when you are well into your 40s-50s, and it's not going to be a 20-30 hour work week. You'll be working 50-60 hours your entire young life to make that much, probably into your mid-late 50s.

 

[zhngbrg]

There are plenty. Think actuary. Think running any grocery store or restaurant. If you sit and think a bit, plenty of careers/businesses that don't gip people will come to mind.

Funny you should bring that up, I have in fact taken and passed the first 2 actuarial exams. I don't think you fully understand what the career entails. You're playing games with people's money, trying to get them to overvalue themselves or their property just enough so that your company can cut a profit but still beat out all of the competitors in price or coverage. It is a very lucrative and cushy career however, I certainly won't argue that.

You can call me jaded but to me, there are no ethics in business, it's always going to be about the numbers. At least as a dentist you can say you're providing a positive service for other people, and you also have the agency to prescribe ethical treatment only when you become an independent practitioner.

 

[thesellsword]

Funny you should bring that up, I have in fact taken and passed the first 2 actuarial exams. I don't think you fully understand what the career entails. You're playing games with people's money, trying to get them to overvalue themselves or their property just enough so that your company can cut a profit but still beat out all of the competitors in price or coverage. It is a very lucrative and cushy career however, I certainly won't argue that.

You can call me jaded but to me, there are no ethics in business, it's always going to be about the numbers. At least as a dentist you can say you're providing a positive service for other people, and you also have the agency to prescribe ethical treatment only when you become an independent practitioner.

Fair enough, I can't say anything to counter that. There are ethics in business for sure, but this thread isn't about arguing about that opinion or business in general. Your point is well stated. Thank you for the perspective.