derm after community program internal medicine

[medstu123]

Hi,

I failed to match into derm during med school, but am still interested in derm. i completed my intern year in medicine at an average academic program. due to the program i was at having a weak dermatology department with little research going on, and the stronger derm department in the city not having a fellowship position available, i decided to pursue internal medicine residency in a different city with more opportunities. I plan to do derm fellowship after internal medicine.

I am currently a pgy-2 at a community program in the city of choice with lots of derm opportunities. i am just wondering if coming from a top community internal medicine program will hurt my chances of matching into derm, compared to any academic program (which ranks lower than the community program according to recently published doximity reputation rankings). i do realize that probably coming from a top academic program will help (probably the people who match there would have been able to match into derm as well on the first try).

thanks

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[asmallchild]

Hi,

I failed to match into derm during med school, but am still interested in derm. i completed my intern year in medicine at an average academic program. due to the program i was at having a weak dermatology department with little research going on, and the stronger derm department in the city not having a fellowship position available, i decided to pursue internal medicine residency in a different city with more opportunities. I plan to do derm fellowship after internal medicine.

I am currently a pgy-2 at a community program in the city of choice with lots of derm opportunities. i am just wondering if coming from a top community internal medicine program will hurt my chances of matching into derm, compared to any academic program (which ranks lower than the community program according to recently published doximity reputation rankings). i do realize that probably coming from a top academic program will help (probably the people who match there would have been able to match into derm as well on the first try).

thanks

Coming from a top community internal medicine program is still not going to be as good as coming from a top academic program.

That being said, from either route I would still recommend a research fellowship after your internal medicine residency (along with as many derm electives and derm research you can conduct while in residency) to buff up your CV before reapplying.

 

[DermViser]

Coming from a top community internal medicine program is still not going to be as good as coming from a top academic program.

That being said, from either route I would still recommend a research fellowship after your internal medicine residency (along with as many derm electives and derm research you can conduct while in residency) to buff up your CV before reapplying.

I wonder if a research fellowship after receiving your MD now is as valuable as it was say 10-15 years ago, in terms of matching. I imagine it would be even less so with residency completion from a community IM program. It just seems like there are so many now. I guess it depends on where and with whom you are exactly you're doing your fellowship and how strong your application is previous to the fellowship.

 

[asmallchild]

I wonder if a research fellowship after receiving your MD now is as valuable as it was say 10-15 years ago, in terms of matching. I imagine it would be even less so with residency completion from a community IM program. It just seems like there are so many now. I guess it depends on where and with whom you are exactly you're doing your fellowship and how strong your application is previous to the fellowship.

It's more of a last resort in my eyes. The question everyone asks a reapplicant is, "what makes you better this time around?"

If you completed a high powered academic residency with tons of research, that might be enough (although I'd still recommend the research fellowship)

But especially if you didn't, the research fellowship is something new and meaningful to add to the CV. Moreso, it's a chance to interact with derm staff so they can vouch for you on more of a personal level. It's obviuosly important to do this at a place that has a history of taking their research fellows. And i've seen in many cases, it may not be a 1 year thing. The question is, how badly do you want it? For some, it's worth 5+ years in a basic science derm lab to get their shot a derm residency. For me personally, I could've found happiness in another field but obviously that's a personal decision for everyone.

For those still in medical school, the research fellowship BEFORE you get your MD is going to be significantly more helpful. I would go so far as to say that those in an allopathic school, with a Step 1 score above 240, with good performances on rotations, good LORs, no significant psychologic pathology, and having taken a year (or more) off for research (again, in a high profiile program with a history of matching their researchers) probably have a match rate approaching the high 90 %s.

 

[DermViser]

It's more of a last resort in my eyes. The question everyone asks a reapplicant is, "what makes you better this time around?"

If you completed a high powered academic residency with tons of research, that might be enough (although I'd still recommend the research fellowship)

But especially if you didn't, the research fellowship is something new and meaningful to add to the CV. Moreso, it's a chance to interact with derm staff so they can vouch for you on more of a personal level. It's obviuosly important to do this at a place that has a history of taking their research fellows. And i've seen in many cases, it may not be a 1 year thing. The question is, how badly do you want it? For some, it's worth 5+ years in a basic science derm lab to get their shot a derm residency. For me personally, I could've found happiness in another field but obviously that's a personal decision for everyone.

For those still in medical school, the research fellowship BEFORE you get your MD is going to be significantly more helpful. I would go so far as to say that those in an allopathic school, with a Step 1 score above 240, with good performances on rotations, good LORs, no significant psychologic pathology, and having taken a year (or more) off for research (again, in a high profiile program with a history of matching their researchers) probably have a match rate approaching the high 90 %s.

For a med student who has done all those things, a research fellowship is just more just frosting on the cake that is already baked, I think. One thing I thought interesting in looking at the match list just from this year, is that you now have students who are AOA, w/home derm programs, taking a year off from med school and doing a research fellowship somewhere, so they end up matching at fantastic top derm programs.

I can't imagine graduating med school, doing an internship, then doing 5+ years of basic science derm lab research (where publishing would take FOREVER), all for just the possibility of matching, after which if you didn't match, you'd have near impossibility of going back and doing another field bc you're so many years out.

 

[asmallchild]

For a med student who has done all those things, a research fellowship is just more just frosting on the cake that is already baked, I think. One thing I thought interesting in looking at the match list just from this year, is that you now have students who are AOA, w/home derm programs, taking a year off from med school and doing a research fellowship somewhere, so they end up matching at fantastic top derm programs.

I can't imagine graduating med school, doing an internship, then doing 5+ years of basic science derm lab research (where publishing would take FOREVER), all for just the possibility of matching, after which if you didn't match, you'd have near impossibility of going back and doing another field bc you're so many years out.

Knew I forgot something, AOA status is huge too. I agree it's just the frosting on top of the cake but for those who ask about a "near guarantee", I find the research fellowship after 3rd year is becoming more and more popular. It's also helpful if you are looking at a different "tier" of residency program. And finally, for people looking to crack a competitive area (Boston, California x 2, NYC, Philadelphia, etc...) there's so much regional supply that a research fellowship is highly recommended if you want to be in that area but lack top tier credentials

I agree but I know of 5 people personally who have followed that path. What they all have in common were a dislike of almost all other fields in medicine, a desperate desire to enter derm, and were OK with continuing as researchers if they failed to match (and almost all of them required multiple applications). I personally would be OK finding something else to do for a living. But it just goes to show that if you want it badly enough, you'll likely get it at some point

 

[DermViser]

I agree but I know of 5 people personally who have followed that path. What they all have in common were a dislike of almost all other fields in medicine, a desperate desire to enter derm, and were OK with continuing as researchers if they failed to match (and almost all of them required multiple applications). I personally would be OK finding something else to do for a living. But it just goes to show that if you want it badly enough, you'll likely get it at some point

Oh, I agree. Just saying it just seems like such a huge risk financially in terms of inability to backtrack - they pretty much have you by the balls. I didn't know there are some derm fellowships out there that will let you stay for 5 years . But I guess if you have such an intense dislike for other specialties and are willing to continue as a researcher there if you failed to match during fellowship, then it's ok.

 

[ratherbefishing]

5 years in a basic science lab is usually called a PhD ;-)

 

[DermViser]

5 years in a basic science lab is usually called a PhD ;-)

If someone did 5 years of Derm basic science research on a particular topic and likely ended up publishing, they should get a PhD from that institution, IMHO. Although I believe if you do a standalone PhD at an institution, you pay tuition, rather than them paying you a salary like in a research fellowship, but I might be wrong on this.

 

[medstu123]

how about a community im program compared to a low-tier or middle of the road academic im program? is there much of a difference?

 

[Dral]

If someone did 5 years of Derm basic science research on a particular topic and likely ended up publishing, they should get a PhD from that institution, IMHO. Although I believe if you do a standalone PhD at an institution, you pay tuition, rather than them paying you a salary like in a research fellowship, but I might be wrong on this.

I did a stand alone PhD. My PI paid my tuition and I was paid an RA ship. Finished Grad school debt free.

 

[DermViser]

I did a stand alone PhD. My PI paid my tuition and I was paid an RA ship. Finished Grad school debt free.

Was this before your MD or after? I guess that's really irrelevant if it's a standalone vs. an MD/PhD (MSTP) program.

 

[DermViser]

how about a community im program compared to a low-tier or middle of the road academic im program? is there much of a difference?

I don't think derm people go that far into the rankings of IM. It's either academic or community, and they tend to like more academic IM programs as they are considered more rigorous vs. a community, private hospital type program.

 

[PatsyStone]

For a med student who has done all those things, a research fellowship is just more just frosting on the cake that is already baked, I think. One thing I thought interesting in looking at the match list just from this year, is that you now have students who are AOA, w/home derm programs, taking a year off from med school and doing a research fellowship somewhere, so they end up matching at fantastic top derm programs..

From talking to other people--both on this forum and face-to-face--it seems like having great Step scores, AOA, a home derm program, and a research year will get you interviews, but not necessarily at the top programs (or at least it seems like most people aren't having much success so far)

 

[DermViser]

From talking to other people--both on this forum and face-to-face--it seems like having great Step scores, AOA, a home derm program, and a research year will get you interviews, but not necessarily at the top programs (or at least it seems like most people aren't having much success so far)

Getting an interview at the top-tier Derm programs: NYU, UPenn, Harvard, UCSF, Stanford, etc. is a crapshoot. There is no magic formula. These programs can afford to be very picky and selective and many times these applicants have very creative and unique things in their CV that appeal to the program in terms of extracurriculars. It's no coincidence that many derm residents there are from top-tier medical schools, and it's not uncommon for all them to have all the puzzle pieces: top-tier med school, great Step scores, top of their class, AOA, research publications in derm, maybe an extra degree (MS, MPH, etc.), and/or a productive research year. There can be confounders but those are rare in terms of actually matching (vs. only interviewing).

Doing a research year can help you get an interview there assuming you already have the other puzzle pieces in place. Realize top tier Derm programs have people who do research years, both MDs and non-MDs who are in and out all the time. This is why I tell everyone to apply to every single Derm program in the country and see what interviews you garner. You can't really trust anything in the process.

 

[Dral]

Was this before your MD or after? I guess that's really irrelevant if it's a standalone vs. an MD/PhD (MSTP) program.

It was before.

And yes, the main theme of all this is one can't really trust or predict much of anything in this process unfortunately.

 

[DermViser]

It was before.

And yes, the main theme of all this is one can't really trust or predict much of anything in this process unfortunately.