derm vs. ophtho

[abcde]

Why derm over ophthalmology?

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[vanelo]

Dumb thread...

 

[GopherBrain]

Because I wanted a status symbol specialty, but I don't like procedures...

 

[PathOne]

Why derm over ophthalmology?

Why Int Med over Psych?
Why X over Y?

With that shallow line of questioning, I very much doubt you're competitive for EITHER.

 

[doc05]

Because I wanted a status symbol specialty, but I don't like procedures...

derm is not a status-symbol specialty. in fact, most of the lay public doesn't respect dermatologists.

and p.s. they do procedures

 

[PathOne]

Djeez, is this a premed forum? "Most of the lay public doesn't respect dermatologists". Would you happen to have any solid data to back that assertion up doc05? WHICH specialty IS respected by the lay public? Psych? Int Med? ENT? Radiology? Or maybe only thoracic surgeons? - or only docs who do "procedures"? Hmm, what about PRS then? Is that "respected"?

Hopefully, anyone who's deciding on a specialty would do that by looking at:
1) What interests you.
2) What you have some fair assumption you'd be good at.
3) What you'd think you'll be comfortable doing the next 30-50 years.
4) What you have a reasonable expectation of getting a residency you'll like in.

I have a hard time understanding what "respectability", be it from peers or from the "lay public" has to do in that equation. Unless, of course, one chose to be an MD because of an inert sense of insecurity and need to be "respected".

 

[Fantasy Sports]

"Most of the lay public doesn't respect dermatologists". Would you happen to have any solid data to back that assertion up doc05?

Apparently you missed the Seinfeld where Jerry dates a dermatologist.

You're not going to find data for these sorts of things, but if you ask people in general, they are oftentimes referred to in the same breath as their "dentist, optometrist, podiatrist" rather than their "cardiologist, oncologist, surgeon". If you interact with enough "real" people outside medicine, I think most people get the same impression. Of course, we all remember the punchline to the Seinfeld episode. Unfortunately, most of those cases are referred to other specialties (or to the academic dermatologist, who might be the only "real" dermatologist out there)

 

[novacek88]

Djeez, is this a premed forum? "Most of the lay public doesn't respect dermatologists". Would you happen to have any solid data to back that assertion up doc05? WHICH specialty IS respected by the lay public? Psych? Int Med? ENT? Radiology? Or maybe only thoracic surgeons? - or only docs who do "procedures"? Hmm, what about PRS then? Is that "respected"?

Hopefully, anyone who's deciding on a specialty would do that by looking at:
1) What interests you.
2) What you have some fair assumption you'd be good at.
3) What you'd think you'll be comfortable doing the next 30-50 years.
4) What you have a reasonable expectation of getting a residency you'll like in.

I have a hard time understanding what "respectability", be it from peers or from the "lay public" has to do in that equation. Unless, of course, one chose to be an MD because of an inert sense of insecurity and need to be "respected".

At the same time, let's not ignore common sense. The lay public is not aware that dermatology is the most difficult to match. Talk to anyone outside of medicine and tell them it's more difficult to become a dermatologist than a "heart surgeon" and then see how high their eyebrows rise. In many foreign countries, dermatology is not very competitive. For example, in Britain and India, you won't get the same response that you would in the United States if you told a physician you were a dermatologist.

It's one thing to show apathy toward how you are perceived by the public; at the same time it's ignorant to assume there is no truth to the idea the lay public doesn't perceive dermatology with the same regard that medical students and other physicians do. To be honest with you, I didn't really respect derm until I discovered how difficult it was to attain and how incredibly intelligent their residents are.

 

[PathOne]

At the same time, let's not ignore common sense. The lay public is not aware that dermatology is the most difficult to match. Talk to anyone outside of medicine and tell them it's more difficult to become a dermatologist than a "heart surgeon" and then see how high their eyebrows rise. In many foreign countries, dermatology is not very competitive. For example, in Britain and India, you won't get the same response that you would in the United States if you told a physician you were a dermatologist.

It's one thing to show apathy toward how you are perceived by the public; at the same time it's ignorant to assume there is no truth to the idea the lay public doesn't perceive dermatology with the same regard that medical students and other physicians do. To be honest with you, I didn't really respect derm until I discovered how difficult it was to attain and how incredibly intelligent their residents are.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. Actually, I'm NOT saying that derms are the top dogs in the medical profession. Yes, right now it's one of the most competitive specialities in the US, but, as you rightly pointed out, that's very much a US phenomenon. In addition, all specialities goes in and out of fashion. Right now, Int Med is considered "non-competitive" despite being quite a cerebral speciality. 10-20 years ago derm wasn't as competitive as today, and perhaps it won't be 10-20 years from now.

I guess that from a layman's perspective the "real" docs are surgeons doing emergency or insanely complicated procedures. I just don't get why the perception of respect should play a role in determining one's specialty...

 

[wooo]

WOW!

there is actually some action on the derm board!

 

[hans19]

Why derm over ophthalmology?

Why ABCDE over 12345?

 

[droliver]

The lay public is not aware that dermatology is the most difficult to match.

Actually, I think #'s wise Plastic Surgery is now the toughest match both from med-school & from all of the post-graduate medical/surgical specialty fellowships.

 

[ForSkin]

Actually, I think #'s wise Plastic Surgery is now the toughest match both from med-school & from all of the post-graduate medical/surgical specialty fellowships.

here's a cookie for matching in a harder residency. evidently it means a lot to you. isn't there a breast augmentation thread that needs your attention.

 

[PathOne]

Actually, I think #'s wise Plastic Surgery is now the toughest match both from med-school & from all of the post-graduate medical/surgical specialty fellowships.

I find it so utterly amazing that so many people on SDN apparently truly believes that advancing through the Art of Medicine is merely a numbers game. Apparently, nobody has told the Adcoms, PD's or patients that fact. They still believe in such antiquated techniques as interviews and using good judgement to find the people most able to provide quality healthcare...

 

[Doc.Holliday]

derm is not a status-symbol specialty. in fact, most of the lay public doesn't respect dermatologists.

and p.s. they do procedures

i wouldnt limit that to the laity. physicians often have similar prejudices. sure derm is a difficult match, but there sure are a lot of cardiosurgeons and nuerosurgeons etc who consider themselves superior. I shadowed a group of cardiosurgeons in NYC one summer (one was an uncle), i cant tell you how many times they tried to talk me out of going into dermatology.

 

[novacek88]

Actually, I think #'s wise Plastic Surgery is now the toughest match both from med-school & from all of the post-graduate medical/surgical specialty fellowships.

Yes, I would agree with that, however, as you said this overtaking is relatively new.

 

[novacek88]

I guess that from a layman's perspective the "real" docs are surgeons doing emergency or insanely complicated procedures. I just don't get why the perception of respect should play a role in determining one's specialty...

I think you are reading into things. I can acknowledge derm carries far more prestige than the fields I'm considering (IM, Peds, FP). It didn't play a role in my decision but if someone asked me which field is the most prestigious according to general perceptions, I could certainly answer that. I don't think everyone who asks that question is using that as the only factor or even a major factor in choosing his or her specialty. Sometimes, people are bored and simply want to know these types of things. Yes, many pre-meds ask these questions but they have not started medical school yet. These students will grow and as a result possibly choose their fields based on other criteria. I know it can get annoying when these types of questions are repeatedly asked but I think think it's best if we answer questions instead of judging the motives behind them.

 

[JOEYSOBANK]

Actually, I think #'s wise Plastic Surgery is now the toughest match both from med-school & from all of the post-graduate medical/surgical specialty fellowships.

I do not wish to argue semantics. However, the confounding factor involved in those statistics (at least out coming of med-school) is that most plastic surgery applicants also apply to gen surg as a back-up if they don't match. Moreover, many 4th years with less than stellar numbers who wish to go into 5-year gen surg programs and intend apply for plastics out of residency also decide to apply to the integrated/combined plastics programs out of med school "just to see what will happen". They are "gen surg" candidates through and through, yet their applications get added into the total # of non-matched plastics candidiates, even though they never truly intended to do the shorter track (for many reasons, one such being that it is not within realistic reach).

On the other hand, many unmatched derm applicants truly want to do derm out of med school and continue to reapply in the years after not matching. Granted, some students opt for the 3 years of IM or Peds if they don't match, intending to reapply after residency (just as the 5 year surg people apply for plastics when they don't match out of med school), but this is a much smaller percentage and number of applicants compared to plastics.

Again, this is all semantics, but I would adamantly argue that Derm is the hardest of all the specialties to match into. Yes, 80 spots in plastics for 300 candidates compared to 290 spots for 900 candidates. But, in addition to the above arguments, at least 1/3 of the derm spots are spoken for each year (making it more like ~200 spots for 800 applicants).

In the end, does this mean ANYTHING? Definitely not b/c as I am applying for Derm and my best friend is applying for Plastics, we're both realizing that this entire process is crazy. To those applying in the coming years, do not let these numbers discourage you. But you must keep in mind that there are also other "mad cool people with stellar grades, boards, and letters with awesome personalities from other schools". You are not alone. Use this to make friends on the trail rather than allowing it to intimidate you.

Just playing devil's advocate,
Bank

 

[Fab5Hill33]

Why ABCDE over 12345?

What?! You'd be a fool to take ABCDE over 12345. I'll take 12345 over ABCDE any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

B/C I wasn't competitive enough to match in derm.

 

[BradenDO]

Again, this is all semantics, but I would adamantly argue that Derm is the hardest of all the specialties to match into. Yes, 80 spots in plastics for 300 candidates compared to 290 spots for 900 candidates. But, in addition to the above arguments, at least 1/3 of the derm spots are spoken for each year (making it more like ~200 spots for 800 applicants).

Just playing devil's advocate,
Bank

Is there any difference in getting matched based on MD or DO? I thought it would be different application wise, but wasn't sure if it was just as competitive.

Braden

 

[brendang]

B/C I wasn't competitive enough to match in derm.

you're joking... right?

 

[f_w]

Why derm over ophtho:
- there are no ruptured globes and retinal detachments in derm
- ever tried to get hold of a dermatologist outside of bankers hours ?
- bankers hours: very very limited call obligations, in residency and later.
- lots of opportunity for enterpreneurial activity and revenue streams outside of the bolchevist insurance buerocracy.
- not the same type of turf issues as ophtho (vs. OD's)

Why ophtho over derm:
- nice intricate surgical procedures
- only a small slice of the human body, but a fairly complex one.
- 'small surgical specialty' lifestyle. See patients 3 days, operate 1 day, take off 1 day.
- reasonable income (not interventional cards money but better than many conservative specialties).
- lots of grey haired ophthalmologists out there. Many don't have to work any more but keep a small practice bc they like their work.

 

[GuyLaroche]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. Actually, I'm NOT saying that derms are the top dogs in the medical profession. Yes, right now it's one of the most competitive specialities in the US, but, as you rightly pointed out, that's very much a US phenomenon. In addition, all specialities goes in and out of fashion. Right now, Int Med is considered "non-competitive" despite being quite a cerebral speciality. 10-20 years ago derm wasn't as competitive as today, and perhaps it won't be 10-20 years from now.

I guess that from a layman's perspective the "real" docs are surgeons doing emergency or insanely complicated procedures. I just don't get why the perception of respect should play a role in determining one's specialty...

What's your point? Let me remind you that you were proved wrong not too long ago.

 

[PathOne]

What's your point? Let me remind you that you were proved wrong not too long ago.

OK. I'm afraid you lost me there. On what and when was I proved wrong? Please do remind me.

Regarding the subject you quoted me on, my point is fairly straight forward: I, personally, believe that one should choose specialty on the basis of interest, aptitude and ability to secure a satisfying residency, NOT "respectability" from others, be they peers, family, friends, laymen, dogs or other third parties. If others disagree, and find "respectability" important, good winds to them. Just remember, that respectability and competitiveness are highly volatile yardsticks to measure by, and apt to change over time.

 

[GuyLaroche]

OK. I'm afraid you lost me there. On what and when was I proved wrong? Please do remind me.

Regarding the subject you quoted me on, my point is fairly straight forward: I, personally, believe that one should choose specialty on the basis of interest, aptitude and ability to secure a satisfying residency, NOT "respectability" from others, be they peers, family, friends, laymen, dogs or other third parties. If others disagree, and find "respectability" important, good winds to them. Just remember, that respectability and competitiveness are highly volatile yardsticks to measure by, and apt to change over time.

I totally agree with you. I just looked through my list of nemeses, and I mistook you for someone else. I agreed with you initially, I was just giving you a hard time because I thought you were one of the people I plan on attacking on every issue. Sorry.

 

[PathOne]

No worries!

Good luck with your attacks. Just make it a clean fight, and no low punches please!...

 

[bigfrank]

you're joking... right?

I think Dr. Doan could have matched in derm.

 

[tupac_don]

Djeez, is this a premed forum? "Most of the lay public doesn't respect dermatologists". Would you happen to have any solid data to back that assertion up doc05? WHICH specialty IS respected by the lay public? Psych? Int Med? ENT? Radiology? Or maybe only thoracic surgeons? - or only docs who do "procedures"? Hmm, what about PRS then? Is that "respected"?

Hopefully, anyone who's deciding on a specialty would do that by looking at:
1) What interests you.
2) What you have some fair assumption you'd be good at.
3) What you'd think you'll be comfortable doing the next 30-50 years.
4) What you have a reasonable expectation of getting a residency you'll like in.

I have a hard time understanding what "respectability", be it from peers or from the "lay public" has to do in that equation. Unless, of course, one chose to be an MD because of an inert sense of insecurity and need to be "respected".

Surgery is actually respected by the public a lot. As far as radiology I doubt the lay person even knows a radiologist is a doctor. They probably think a radiologist is a guy who takes X-rays.

 

[bansheeDO]

Djeez, is this a premed forum? "Most of the lay public doesn't respect dermatologists". Would you happen to have any solid data to back that assertion up doc05? WHICH specialty IS respected by the lay public? Psych? Int Med? ENT? Radiology? Or maybe only thoracic surgeons? - or only docs who do "procedures"? Hmm, what about PRS then? Is that "respected"?

Hopefully, anyone who's deciding on a specialty would do that by looking at:
1) What interests you.
2) What you have some fair assumption you'd be good at.
3) What you'd think you'll be comfortable doing the next 30-50 years.
4) What you have a reasonable expectation of getting a residency you'll like in.

I have a hard time understanding what "respectability", be it from peers or from the "lay public" has to do in that equation. Unless, of course, one chose to be an MD because of an inert sense of insecurity and need to be "respected".

All of us are human. There is a difference between "what should be" and "what is". Yes, all of us should choose fields based on how much we enjoy a particular field. Unfortunately, that's just not the case. Respectability and prestige does weigh into these decisions. We are human. We want to be respected and adored for our work. I think many people wouldn't go into surgery if it didn't have prestige associated with it. Sorry, no one goes through 5 years of hell in a general surgery residency sacrificing their sleep, health, marriage, time with children etc unless prestige is part of the job. It's not just because they like to cut. Likewise, people don't just go into derm because they love skin. People don't go into rads only because they like looking at images all day.

Every field has it's perks. Prestige happens to be a perk of going into surgery. That's just the reality. Lifestyle and stress happen to be the drawbacks of surgery. Likewise, lifestyle and low stress happen to be a perk of dermatology but prestige is obviously a drawback of it.

In the end, it depends on what you value more. Many dermatologists know their field isn't as prestigious as surgery to the lay public, but they don't care due to the great lifestyle they are afforded. Likewise, surgeons know their lifestyle sucks but they don't care because they have a cool reputation and they get to cut.

 

[Ross434]

You say dermatologist, I say "Pimple-popper MD!!"

 

[PathOne]

You say dermatologist, I say "Pimple-popper MD!!"

Gee, what a mature statement. Go tell that to the 59,350 Americans diagnosed with skin cancers in 2004 and the 10,250 who died from skin cancers last year alone..

 

[bansheeDO]

Gee, what a mature statement. Go tell that to the 59,350 Americans diagnosed with skin cancers in 2004 and the 10,250 who died from skin cancers last year alone..

Obviously, you are not fan of Seinfeld. It's an inside joke. He was referring to a Seinfeld episode in which Jerry was dating a dermatologist. He was ashamed to date her because he didn't think she was a real doctor. He used to refer to her as pimple popper M.D. Later in the episode, he meets one of the doctor's patients who claims the dermatologist saved her life. When Jerry asks how she saved her life, she mentions that she had skin cancer; Jerry then immedately looks upward and pumps his fist saying...Skin Cancer...as if he was foolish for missing the obvious.

Try not be so judgemental. As you can see, you clearly jumped the gun and ASSumed the wrong idea. Ross434 meant no harm.

 

[phillystudent]

On the subject of the general public making fun of dermatologists, did anyone catch the latests Scrubs where they said "Dermatologist is Greek for 'Fake Doctor'?"

 

[PathOne]

Obviously, you are not fan of Seinfeld. It's an inside joke. He was referring to a Seinfeld episode in which Jerry was dating a dermatologist. He was ashamed to date her because he didn't think she was a real doctor. He used to refer to her as pimple popper M.D. Later in the episode, he meets one of the doctor's patients who claims the dermatologist saved her life. When Jerry asks how she saved her life, she mentions that she had skin cancer; Jerry then immedately looks upward and pumps his fist saying...Skin Cancer...as if he was foolish for missing the obvious.

Try not be so judgemental. As you can see, you clearly jumped the gun and ASSumed the wrong idea. Ross434 meant no harm.

Hmm, seems that I'm not watching enough television.
However, your reply begs the question: Who's judgemental? I can't really see that I jumped the gun when somebody, entirely out of context, denigrates an entire medical profession - be it Jerry Seinfeld or Ross434.
If (s)he had posted along the lines of what you wrote, even slow people such as myself could get it... and it would be as nonsensical as much of this thread, so that would be perfectly fine.

 

[novacek88]

Hmm, seems that I'm not watching enough television.
However, your reply begs the question: Who's judgemental? I can't really see that I jumped the gun when somebody, entirely out of context, denigrates an entire medical profession - be it Jerry Seinfeld or Ross434.
If (s)he had posted along the lines of what you wrote, even slow people such as myself could get it... and it would be as nonsensical as much of this thread, so that would be perfectly fine.

Jerry Seinfeld was poking fun at himself not the dermatologist. Cmon, "pimple popper M.D."...doesn't that strike you as an elementary school playground type of comment. Just the term itself should provide some clue that Jerry was just having some fun. He could have said worthless doctor if he was really intent upon criticizing the field. I'm just suprised you have not heard of that term or Seinfeld episode. It's become so common now that people don't feel the need to elaborate upon it every time it is used. Lighten up Francis, you jumped the gun.