Dismissed from Program Due to Timing

[GastricLipase]

Hey everyone. I was recently dismissed in September from my Osteopathic Medical School due to having attempted and failed COMLEX Level 1 twice. During COVID, due to a death in the family I took a leave of absence for a year and pushed my exam a year. There is a 3-attempt max at taking the exam, however I naively pushed the exam too far and now due to the 6-year time limit to finish the program, I was unable to take the exam again and was dismissed based on these grounds. I have tried to filed a grievance with the school, however it was immediately denied as they were following proper policy for the dismissal. I am currently working on leaving the program with a Masters of Medical Science.

My question is: Are there any MD or DO schools (Apologies for asking this in the MD thread, I wasn't sure how to crosspost) that would accept a dismissed student if the grounds for the dismissal were explained? Is there a chance to possibly gain a provisional acceptance based on taking and passing USMLE Step 1? If these are not viable options, would it be fine to apply and attend a Caribbean medical school even with a dismissal on my record in terms of achieving a US Residency?

I truly do believe that I want to become a physician by any means necessary, and I completely understand the depth of difficulty this will be with a dismissal, but I wanted to see if there was any sliver of hope that I could still attain this goal.

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[Med Ed]

I'll spare you the forensic interrogation over everything that happened on your road to dismissal and cut to the point: I think you're DOA at any US medical school, MD or DO. The dismissal is one thing, but a chaser of two Level 1 failures is downright lethal.

If the school that dismissed you otherwise liked you, it's possible to reapply there and start over from scratch. But that's a long shot.

I'm positive you can find a Caribbean medical school willing to take your money, but your odds of making it through are bad, and your odds of matching are even worse.

Time for Plan B to take shape.

 

[mrbreakfast]

The biggest issue unfortunately isn't the dismissal due to running out of time (though that's an issue), it's the two failed attempts. That's an automatic dismissal at many/most programs; only a few would even consider giving a student a third shot.

US MD/DO programs aren't going to take the tuition money of someone they think has no chance of graduating with a match. You can likely find a Caribbean program without such reservations. But nothing you can do will erase the two failures and dismissal.

 

[Goro]

I can't sugarcoat this, OP. Your medical career is over. It's time for Plan B.

 

[Robin-jay]

Podiatric Medical School might give you a shot.

However, most of those medical schools also give you a max of 3 tries for part 1 boards.

So it might be questionable to them.

But it's probably a better bet than MD/DO for you.

But to add to everything, you still have to be just as competent as a DPM too, so those boards aren't going to be any easier for you.

 

[GastricLipase]

Thank you for the responses everyone. I did expect that this would be the outcome, I just wanted to check if it was possible at all. I am considering going to the Caribbean however, just as a side plan to apply to them and see if I was offered admission at any decent ones. If I were to somehow go, pass Step 1 first attempt, secure a high Step 2 score and good clinical grades, what would be my chances to match into a family medicine or EM residency within the US?

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

Thank you for the responses everyone. I did expect that this would be the outcome, I just wanted to check if it was possible at all. I am considering going to the Caribbean however, just as a side plan to apply to them and see if I was offered admission at any decent ones. If I were to somehow go, pass Step 1 first attempt, secure a high Step 2 score and good clinical grades, what would be my chances to match into a family medicine or EM residency within the US?

No disrespect, but if you couldn't pass an significantly easier test that step twice, what makes you think you'll be able to pass step 1?

 

[GastricLipase]

No disrespect, but if you couldn't pass an significantly easier test that step twice, what makes you think you'll be able to pass step 1?

None taken, I was honestly more considering a different plan B in possibly doing a PhD or moving towards computer science, but was just hypothesizing about this option - I do understand that it would be a monumental hurdle given my current failings during COMLEX

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Really sorry to hear. I commiserate with the student affairs dean who I presume advised you about the consequences of pushing your exam that far out. I agree the 2 fails are essentially career ending. I think you have to report those results in any residency application (as well as all past schools attended).

I don't know if PA or similar are options you would consider. One suggested DPM. Clinical research and medical affairs/pharma are still hot places. Pharmacy if your want it.

 

[avatarftw]

I'm sorry to hear about the board failures and the dismissal OP. What is your general loan situation or debt? If you have a ton of debt that influences your decision making process. Say you have 150k+ in debt so far from the 2 yrs; you either need a high paying job to pay this off or get PSLF. I'm not familiar with non physician PSLF jobs.


It doesn't sound likely that you'd be able to continue with your MD in the US; I don't think that the caribbean would likely yield a positive outcome either. Good luck

 

[GoSpursGo]

Thank you for the responses everyone. I did expect that this would be the outcome, I just wanted to check if it was possible at all. I am considering going to the Caribbean however, just as a side plan to apply to them and see if I was offered admission at any decent ones. If I were to somehow go, pass Step 1 first attempt, secure a high Step 2 score and good clinical grades, what would be my chances to match into a family medicine or EM residency within the US?

There aren't any decent ones. I've no doubt you could even potentially get SGU or Ross to take your money, but assuming you could even pass Step 1, I think you would still be seen as a huge risk for failing to match even noncompetitive FM or EM programs.

It is painful, but you need to see your medical school attempt as a sunk cost at this point. Any more money spent on this goal is only going to lead to a worse debt at the end.

 

[mrbreakfast]

If I were to somehow go, pass Step 1 first attempt, secure a high Step 2 score and good clinical grades, what would be my chances to match into a family medicine or EM residency within the US?

As noted above, future successes do not erase past failures. The unfortunate reality is that you could crush step 1 and 2, get perfect grades, publish first author in NEJM, etc, and none of that would matter because your ERAS application is going to get flagged immediately and not even get read by the overwhelming majority of programs. A few places will look past a red flag or two, but I think yours are too red.

 

[deleted1168269]

OP let me tell you about myself. I go to a DO school. I am a 4th year applying to neurology right now. Neurology is very DO friendly but, for whatever reason, this year it is slightly more competitive (but still less competitive than most specialties). I have six publications, a Step 2 score close to a 260, and great letters of rec from a top institution where I did an audition at.

And yet, I still haven't gotten interviews from several of my top choices because I am a DO. I still have 10+ interviews, which is still great, but several places have placed me on hold or waitlist for interview because of my DO status (I have a DO friend with a 270 and he is also waitlisted at some places). According to the reddit spreadsheet, these places have only been interviewing MD students so far.

So as you can imagine, if I am having these challenges as a strong DO student applying to an uncompetitive specialty, you will be DNR'd on arrival at the vast majority of places you are applying to residency. The US MD and DO expansion is rapidly pushing out Carrib students and FMGs. Don't make a $500,000 mistake, especially when you won't be able to get federal loan protections. Going to a Carrib school (especially for you) is an awful, terrible idea.

 

[cde]

If you want to continue in a medical field consider applying to Anesthesia Assistant school.

 

[ProReduction]

OP let me tell you about myself. I go to a DO school. I am a 4th year applying to neurology right now. Neurology is very DO friendly but, for whatever reason, this year it is slightly more competitive (but still less competitive than most specialties). I have several publications, a Step 2 score close to a 260, and great letters of rec from a top institution where I did an audition at.

And yet, I still haven't gotten interviews from several of my top choices because I am a DO. I still have 10+ interviews, which is still great, but several places have placed me on hold or waitlist for interview because of my DO status (I have a DO friend with a 270 and he is also waitlisted at some places). According to the reddit spreadsheet, these places have only been interviewing MD students so far.

So as you can imagine, if I am having these challenges as a strong DO student applying to an uncompetitive specialty, you will be DNR'd on arrival at the vast majority of places you are applying to residency. The US MD and DO expansion is rapidly pushing out Carrib students and FMGs. Don't make a $500,000 mistake, especially when you won't be able to get federal loan protections. Going to a Carrib school (especially for you) is an awful, terrible idea.

I am a Neurologist (MD) who did my residency at a "Top 5" program (meaningless I know), and I know for a fact that my program will not interview DOs. It is tough to match without a PhD as well. This seems to be par for the course for Top 10 programs in Neurology, which as you said is not a competitive residency.

 

[ProReduction]

None taken, I was honestly more considering a different plan B in possibly doing a PhD or moving towards computer science, but was just hypothesizing about this option - I do understand that it would be a monumental hurdle given my current failings during COMLEX

Do you have an undergraduate degree in Computer Science?

 

[LucidSplash]

I wonder if you could pursue an allied field, such as cardiovascular perfusionist for example. I have no firsthand knowledge of the likelihood of being accepted into such a program with the COMPLEX failures and dismissal on your record, but I think in your situation, that is what I would look into next.

Cardiovascular Perfusionist - Explore Health Care Careers - Mayo Clinic College of Medicine & Science

Learn about a health care career as a cardiovascular perfusionist, including what they do, where they work, and training programs at Mayo Clinic College of Medicine and Science.

college.mayo.edu

 

[DOVinciRobot]

It’s game over for being a physician. Time for plan B.

 

[deleted1168269]

I am a Neurologist (MD) who did my residency at a "Top 5" program (meaningless I know), and I know for a fact that my program will not interview DOs. It is tough to match without a PhD as well. This seems to be par for the course for Top 10 programs in Neurology, which as you said is not a competitive residency.

Neurology programs tends to have a “move up from med school” phenomenon. Almost all of the top medical schools have around 10 residency spots for neurology. However, top medical schools themselves match VERY few people into neurology (just spot checking from the SDN 2023 match list thread, WashU, Hopkins, UCLA, Northwestern, UChicago, Vanderbilt, and Harvard all had less than a handful match into neurology - and that’s before I stopped checking because I think it made my point). This is because students at top medical schools have very little reason to go into neurology since they can so easily go into ortho, ent, etc. DO students go into neurology to put food on the table.

Essentially because top medical schools have so many neurology residency spots but so few people going into neurology, they have to accept middle tier med school applicants. The middle tier residencies then have to accept low tier applicants and DO applicants. Community hospitals accept Carribs and DOs.

In the end, neurology is not competitive and most people will match above where they went to med school. But it’s getting slightly more competitive.

 

[ProReduction]

Neurology programs tends to have a “move up from med school” phenomenon. Almost all of the top medical schools have around 10 residency spots for neurology. However, top medical schools themselves match VERY few people into neurology (just spot checking from the SDN 2023 match list thread, WashU, Hopkins, UCLA, Northwestern, UChicago, Vanderbilt, and Harvard all had less than a handful match into neurology). This is because students at top medical schools have very little reason to go into neurology since they can so easily go into ortho, ent, etc. DO students go into neurology to put food on the table.

Essentially because top medical schools have so many neurology residency spots but so few people going into neurology, they have to accept middle tier med school applicants. The middle tier residencies then have to accept low tier applicants and DO applicants. Community hospitals accept Carribs and DOs.

In the end, neurology is not competitive and most people will match above where they went to med school. But it’s getting slightly more competitive.

Pretty much sums it up, and if you look at the "Top 5" programs (MGH, UCSF, etc.) you will see that 30-50% of their spots are filled internally by their own med school applicants. Frequently by MD/PhDs. The other spots usually go to the froth at the top (NYU, U Penn, JHU) just being mixed around between programs, plus MD/PhDs from mid tier med school applicants.
Only thing I would add is that MD/PhD students from top med schools that choose Neurology are there by choice. They could have easily matched into Ortho or Derm or Ophtho or ENT, but they wanted something on the cutting edge of research, whereas those other fields simply are not academic.

 

[differentiating]

Neurology programs tends to have a “move up from med school” phenomenon. Almost all of the top medical schools have around 10 residency spots for neurology. However, top medical schools themselves match VERY few people into neurology (just spot checking from the SDN 2023 match list thread, WashU, Hopkins, UCLA, Northwestern, UChicago, Vanderbilt, and Harvard all had less than a handful match into neurology - and that’s before I stopped checking because I think it made my point). This is because students at top medical schools have very little reason to go into neurology since they can so easily go into ortho, ent, etc. DO students go into neurology to put food on the table.

Essentially because top medical schools have so many neurology residency spots but so few people going into neurology, they have to accept middle tier med school applicants. The middle tier residencies then have to accept low tier applicants and DO applicants. Community hospitals accept Carribs and DOs.

In the end, neurology is not competitive and most people will match above where they went to med school. But it’s getting slightly more competitive.

Neurology is usually one of the biggest specialties that students at UCSF match into, outside of IM/Gen surg. But that's because we have such a strong neurology department to begin with, so a lot of students are interested. Neuro definitely outnumbered some of the surgical subs in my graduating class, because not everyone wants to do those. It's going to vary by med school and what people are interested in in a given year.

But this is off-topic. For the OP, agreed with everyone else that going Caribbean (your only shot of realistically reentering medical school) is very likely to leave you with more debt and not much more to show for it.

 

[mrbreakfast]

Neurology programs tends to have a “move up from med school” phenomenon. Almost all of the top medical schools have around 10 residency spots for neurology. However, top medical schools themselves match VERY few people into neurology (just spot checking from the SDN 2023 match list thread, WashU, Hopkins, UCLA, Northwestern, UChicago, Vanderbilt, and Harvard all had less than a handful match into neurology - and that’s before I stopped checking because I think it made my point). This is because students at top medical schools have very little reason to go into neurology since they can so easily go into ortho, ent, etc. DO students go into neurology to put food on the table.

Agree this is very off-topic, but just worth noting that the idea that people (especially DOs) go into neurology because they "have to" is probably incorrect; I agree that it's moreso a self-selecting field. Neurology USMD applicants, on average, are about on par with the average USMD residency applicant stat-wise. Also, a greater percentage of USMD M4s apply to neurology (2.8%) than do DO M4s (2.2%), and it's not like the neurology DO fill rate (14.8% of neuro residency spots are filled by DOs) is significantly higher than that of ortho (12.7%), GS (12.3%), or DR (14.6%).

Competitive applicants choose neurology because they are interested in the field. Neurology salaries are pretty good these days, anyway, but it takes a certain type of person to go into the field. Other than a few programs, no place is consistently matching a squadron of their med students into neurology annually.

 

[deleted1168269]

Agree this is very off-topic, but just worth noting that the idea that people (especially DOs) go into neurology because they "have to" is probably incorrect; I agree that it's moreso a self-selecting field. Neurology USMD applicants, on average, are about on par with the average USMD residency applicant stat-wise. Also, a greater percentage of USMD M4s apply to neurology (2.8%) than do DO M4s (2.2%), and it's not like the neurology DO fill rate (14.8% of neuro residency spots are filled by DOs) is significantly higher than that of ortho (12.7%), GS (12.3%), or DR (14.6%).

Competitive applicants choose neurology because they are interested in the field. Neurology salaries are pretty good these days, anyway, but it takes a certain type of person to go into the field. Other than a few programs, no place is consistently matching a squadron of their med students into neurology annually.

It’s not that they “have to”. Just that they want to speciality in something and Neuro is easily accessible so it sways their decision. Personally I love Neuro and if I were to go to a Top 10 school I’d shoot for neurosurgery.

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

It’s not that they “have to”. Just that they want to speciality in something and Neuro is easily accessible so it sways their decision. Personally I love Neuro and if I were to go to a Top 10 school I’d shoot for neurosurgery.

Neurology and neurosurgery are very different lol

 

[mrbreakfast]

Personally I love Neuro and if I were to go to a Top 10 school I’d shoot for neurosurgery.

Since you are ostensibly interviewing for neurology residency positions right now, I'll just advise you that statements like "personally I love neurology, and if I were a more competitive applicant, I would've not done it and instead tried to match a completely different specialty" are best kept to yourself.

 

[GastricLipase]

Update: I was able to contact an understanding DO school to which I applied and was accepted recently! So I wanted to leave this here as a motivating thing for people who may run into a similar situation. Never give up and never stop trying because I know you can do it.

 

[Goro]

Update: I was able to contact an understanding DO school to which I applied and was accepted recently! So I wanted to leave this here as a motivating thing for people who may run into a similar situation. Never give up and never stop trying because I know you can do it.

Was this a brand new school?

In any event, good luck!

 

[MDMechEngr]

Congratulations OP and I wish you success this time around. You only have to prove to yourself that you can do this and I have a feeling that you will succeed and match somewhere for residency. God bless you!

 

[footshazam]

OP I’m sorry that you are faced with this issue and I wish you the best in whatever you do moving forward. I find it so interesting that people are saying that you are done but I saw another thread about a student repeating 2nd year who was threatened with a dismissal due to it is some how ok and it should be fine. I get not passing boards isn’t the best situation to be in but seems to me that having to repeat a whole year of medical school should be just as bad. It’s just an observation that I made.

 

[xffan624]

Update: I was able to contact an understanding DO school to which I applied and was accepted recently! So I wanted to leave this here as a motivating thing for people who may run into a similar situation. Never give up and never stop trying because I know you can do it.

Congrats! Not mentioned in the original thread, but still relevant is that many medical boards also have limits for number of times you can attempt the Step exams. Although if you haven't passed Step 1 yet, you may be ok on the sequence part. Some states require all of them to be taken within a 7 year period. Just something to keep in mind when you're considering residency location etc. FSMB | State Specific Requirements for Initial Medical Licensure

 

[Robin-jay]

Update: I was able to contact an understanding DO school to which I applied and was accepted recently! So I wanted to leave this here as a motivating thing for people who may run into a similar situation. Never give up and never stop trying because I know you can do it.

Great! I promise medical has no other challenges or barriers after pre-clinical boards. I promise.