do OD's collect $500 from M.D's?

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Tony.

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I was just curious: One of my friends who's in Optometry school told me that OD's collect $500 from Ophthalmologists if they refer a patient to them. Is that true?

Like, if an OD saw that his/her patient is a candidate for LASIK, they send them to an M.D and they get $500? Is that really how much they can earn, just by referring to another doctor?

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Originally posted by anothertony
I was just curious: One of my friends who's in Optometry school told me that OD's collect $500 from Ophthalmologists if they refer a patient to them. Is that true?

Like, if an OD saw that his/her patient is a candidate for LASIK, they send them to an M.D and they get $500? Is that really how much they can earn, just by referring to another doctor?

To be paid strictly for consultation is medical collusion and is illegal.

To get arround this, physicians and optometrists agree to the symbiotic relationship of "co-management", i.e. OD sends LASIK candidate, MD collects fees for surgery, and then the patient is returned to the OD for post-operative care. The money received is for the post-operative co-management of the patient.
 
I'm assuming your friend is speaking of a co-management situation. The OD would see the patient post surgery (the first post surgery visit depends on the surgeon -- i.e. some MDs would want to see the patient at one day whereas others may "allow" the OD to see the patient at one day.) The $500 would pay for these visits. I am only liscenced in two states (and one province) and in those three places money for referral is illegal (and of course just by thinking about it extremely unethical.) but I assume other states have similar laws.
 
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Well... Dr. Doan beat me to it. By the way thanks for your input in this forum Dr. Doan.
 
Originally posted by anothertony
I was just curious: One of my friends who's in Optometry school told me that OD's collect $500 from Ophthalmologists if they refer a patient to them. Is that true?
Like, if an OD saw that his/her patient is a candidate for LASIK, they send them to an M.D and they get $500? Is that really how much they can earn, just by referring to another doctor?

The other posters answered this question very well. OD's participate in post-operative care on a case-by-case basis. With a very good working relationship between the OD and MD, it may become the rule rather than the exception in their particular case. The comfort level must exist on both sides. The money must be earned on both sides. One ophthalmologist likes to see the patient on the one day post-op and send to me at 10 days post-op and the another will send them back to me for the one day (and thereafter).

Depending on the skill of the surgeon, it may be earned easily or with alot of work. I have two great surgeons that do such do such excellent work that the post-op basically becomes checks to insure they are using their meds, that there is no inflammation or edema, pressure checks and refractions. Much of the time is spend trying to convince them to use their post-op meds as directed. Another surgeon was so bad that I had to quit sending to him. Not sure how he even got licensed:laugh:

Actually, the comangement arrangement probably has been one of the best things to happen to eyecare and patient safety because it keeps everyone on their toes and the bad surgeons are brought to light very quickly.

Cataract surgery though Medicare is an 80/20 split (with the OD getting 20% but actually doing probably 70% of the work really). Medicare pays about $700 so the OD gets about $140 for 90 days worth of visits...typically 3 seperate visit........easy or complicated. So it basically comes out to $46 per visist (not much).

Private insurance such as BCBS pay around $8000. We had two OMD groups tell us repeatedly that BCBS will not let OD's comanage. I called them on this, made them file the appropriate modifer, and lo and behold, we got paid the $1,600 (20%). Where they honestly telling us what they believe or simply trying to keep all the money?? Hmmmm...... Money does strange things to otherwise friendly people.

Refractive surgery in this area is similar. The surgeon charges $3000 (both eyes) and I get $800 for 90 days + of post operative care (easy if all goes well.......not so if there are complications, emotional concerns, unrealistic expectation, the surgeon decided to experiment with monovision etc....).

Not particularly easy money but the patients spend less time in the surgeons office (and he does more surgery) and "bonds" more at mine. ;)
 
Originally posted by TomOD

Actually, the comangement arrangement probably has been one of the best things to happen to eyecare and patient safety because it keeps everyone on their toes and the bad surgeons are brought to light very quickly.

It's interesting that you have this point of view: that comanagement provides a way to monitor "bad surgeons".

However, there's always two sides to a coin. Comanagement can be a bad thing for patients when the optometrist is not familiar with post-surgical care and there are serious problems. Patients may be mismanaged preoperatively, surgically, and/or postoperatively.

You made a good point about a good working relationship between the MD and OD. If they know each other well and are comfortable with the other's skills and knowledge base, then comanagement works well. Problems arise when people get greedy and work with health care providers who are too busy to care for patients properly or simply incompetent.

Money corrupts the mind. :(
 
Dr. Doan,

I often tell people that the difference between a good doctor and bad doctor often has to do with his or her referral patterns. For instance I recently told a patient to seek the care of an Ophthalmologist because she was very apprehensive about going on vacation following an acute onset of flashes and floaters. I dilated her and diagnosed a PVD but because she was nervous I suggested that she seek a second opinion so she could put the incident behind her and enjoy her trip. I talked to her last week when her husband came to my office. She said that the second opinion was a waste of her time because the diagnosis was the same. I pointed out that the visit was not a waste because the Ophthalmologist was better at looking at the peripheral retina than I am and the second opinion confirmed the diagnosis and allowed her to enjoy her vacation. I know some O.D.?s that are better than most M.D.?s at retinal exams but I?m not one of them. I also send my glaucoma patients to a glaucoma specialist not because I cannot care for most of them but because why not see a glaucoma guy if you have him available. I think he enjoys seeing the easy glaucoma patients that are usually taken by the general Ophthalmologists. There are a lot of patients that are currently treated for glaucoma that they don?t have glaucoma and I like to have a specialist take them off there meds and follow them instead of me. What do you think about that initial statement.
 
Originally posted by iiiidave

I often tell people that the difference between a good doctor and bad doctor often has to do with his or her referral patterns.

I agree with you completely. The role of the OD in primary eye care is invaluable and necessary. Knowing when to consult and not to consult is the art of medicine. :)
 
very cool postings!! from all of you:
just some notes to some people:

Andrew-D,-- you're not really clear with your opinion: are you in favor of co-management? like, is this the way we should be looking towards the future? one hand washes another? could M.D's work w/out OD and vis versa?

iiidave ---- if you work with an ophthalmologist, M.D, how are they assigned, do you get to choose who you work with or do insurance companies give you an M.D to work with (im assuming you're an OD)

TomOD--- you're the reason people post questions on this forum...I enjoyed reading what you had to say..i.e thank you for giving us stats and figures. I know the OD that i worked for had a secretary where her job was strictly speaking to insurance companies etc. (thats all she did) so you think insurance companies view M.D's practice more "important" and therefore should be compensated more? just asking. Also: do you think eventually, now that cateract surgery is becoming routine, OD's will be able to perform this procedure in the future?
 
Originally posted by anothertony

Andrew-D,-- you're not really clear with your opinion: are you in favor of co-management? like, is this the way we should be looking towards the future? one hand washes another? could M.D's work w/out OD and vis versa?

Truthfully, I am not a big fan of co-management. I believe that the surgeon should provide the post-operative care for the patient. In the situation that the surgeon has a good relationship with the ODs and is comfortable with their post-surgical knowledge and care, then I think co-management works.

Can MDs work without ODs? Absolutely. I've seen many successful practices without co-management.

Can the MDs work with ODs? Absolutely. As long as both parties feel comfortable with the other's medical skills and knowledge, then this symbiotic relationship functions well. Similar to how TomOD won't send patients to certain surgeons, there are certain ODs I wouldn't have them care for post-operative patients. However, there are ODs here at Iowa that I would trust every post-operative patient with.
 
I think in a nutshell, the moral of our story is that you should have a good working knowledge of who you send your patients too.....be it Ophthalmologist, Podiatrist, Internist etc.

I have become convinced more and more over the years that a particular degree means little. There are bad eggs everywhere and assuming that someone is good based on a degree might be a mistake. Knowledge is but one facet of a good clinician. If they are going to keep my patient in the waiting room for 3 hours, make them wait 3 months for an appt., talk down to them, talk down to them about me, not explain themself etc.......I don't need them and we will find another excellent surgeon.

I've discussed a fellowship trained glaucoma Ophthalmologist that I had always referred to (out of necessity mostly) that I got a chance to follow around in the clinic for a few days. I was shocked to see that he viewed every nerve with a direct ophthalmoscope, never pulled out a 79/90 and only picked up a BIO two times out of a few hundred patients.

I always wondered why he graded c/d's differently. I was dumbfounded to find a specialist who either didn't care, was incompetent or both. He had very poor chairside skills. He talked WAY over the patients head......asking one if they would like a retrobulbar block or local anesthetic for her next cataract surgery (a 83 y.o. disoriented lady that had no clue what he was saying). After repeating this a few times is the same works, the poor lady just said, "whatever you think is best doc" :) He spent an average of 3.5 minutes with each patient (I timed him with my watch). But that's just this guy. I've actually gotten alot of patients from him over the year.

Of course, I've seen plenty of OD's with 2 inches of dust on their BIO because they have never been used so I'm not really pointing fingers at anyone other than this guy.

Thus, I have found it very useless to refer out to this guy unless we are ready for surgery and then I have to twist his arm to do it. I try to get people up to Duke now, if possible. I'd rather have a resident practicing on my patients than this guy.

I enjoy glaucoma, enjoy taking the time with people (which is what many of them need......recent studies show that most glaucoma patients don't really understand their disease and how they are really treating it). And it is relatively lucrative BTW. I truely feel that I provide them better care than this specialist (of course unless surgery is necessary). I think I care more than he does.

But back to comanagement. If I was a surgeon, I wouldn't want to have a blanket comanagement policy. I'd absolutely make sure I visit and observe everyone I sent to and encourge them (most have) to visit me. I don't want any discomfort on either side. If the surgeon turns me down on a request to visit him, he/she is either hiding something or is just an anti-OD zealot:cool: No problem either way because I need to know so I can move on to someone else (there's always someone else. :thumbup:
 
You find a group of doctors you are comfortable with and use them. INS does exclude some but I practice in a large city so it is easy to find competent surgeons to work with.
 
Originally posted by xmattODx
Well... Dr. Doan beat me to it. By the way thanks for your input in this forum Dr. Doan.

Although this post is by xmattODx, I'm really addressing this issue with Dr. Doan. I, too, welcome your thoughts on this forum but I sensed that the reverse is not true for optometrists posting on th ophthalmology forum (from recent personal experience)

What are your thoughts on this?

RIchard
 
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Originally posted by Richard_Hom
Although this post is by xmattODx, I'm really addressing this issue with Dr. Doan. I, too, welcome your thoughts on this forum but I sensed that the reverse is not true for optometrists posting on th ophthalmology forum (from recent personal experience)

What are your thoughts on this?

RIchard

Richard,

I always welcome your and other optometrists views. I realize some discussions digressed greatly in the past. As long as the discussions are kept civil and do not degenerate into a MD vs OD fight, I think views from each side are welcomed in both forums.

What do you think?
 
Originally posted by Andrew_Doan
Richard,

I always welcome your and other optometrists views. I realize some discussions digressed greatly in the past. As long as the discussions are kept civil and do not degenerate into a MD vs OD fight, I think views from each side are welcomed in both forums.

What do you think?

Andrew,

In my opinion, I believe that most of your posters are fair and impartial. I also feel that most feel justified in their behavior because "I'm just a...." It is this behavior that I feel offensive and gives health care professionals a bad name in public.

In general, I feel that extremist views by all parties are prevalent and generally do not represent the larger majority of the folks.

Richard
 
Andrew Doan, you're picture really scares me, maybe you can change it to something less intimidating? :(
 
I don?t see much MD/OD infighting where I am. Actually I don?t see any. In fact I am going to see an Ophthalmologist tomorrow at 12:30 to discuss him sending me referrals for Optometric care. The subject came up while talking about a mutual patient that I fit in contact lenses. The patient is a police officer that spots bad guys from a helicopter, he had RK a few years ago and needs to see better. The Ophthalmologist wants someone to fit cones and other distorted corneas and needs someone to send general exams and contact lens patients to. The two professions compliment each other quite well. I have never met an Ophthalmologist that wants to refract people or fit them in contacts, they want to cut. Unfortunately there are a lot of O.D.?s that want to be Ophthalmologists. If you want to be an MD then do it. Most people in op school could get into med school if they wanted to. I must be missing something?
 
Andrew_Doan,

the link you posted----
give us your thoughts about the possible future "optometric surgeon".....(such as Dr. Ringel)
BUT BE NICE !! I start optometry school in September (in Boston)and I am convinced that OD's scope of practice will continue to expand to the extent of surgery........as it should...


iiiidave,
you have too many ideas....i cant follow your train of thoughts. are you motivating us to be M.Ds or just talking about your practice? :confused:
 
Originally posted by anothertony
Andrew_Doan,

the link you posted----
give us your thoughts about the possible future "optometric surgeon".....(such as Dr. Ringel)
BUT BE NICE !! I start optometry school in September (in Boston)and I am convinced that OD's scope of practice will continue to expand to the extent of surgery........as it should...

I believe in two separate tracks:

1) If you want to be primary care without surgery, then go the OD route.

2) If you want to be a surgeon, then go the MD route.

This issue has been discussed at length. You may read about my views on this issue here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61743

and here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70493
 
Originally posted by Andrew_Doan
I believe in two separate tracks:

1) If you want to be primary care without surgery, then go the OD route.

2) If you want to be a surgeon, then go the MD route.


yep, i concur with those thoughts.
 
Originally posted by anothertony
I am convinced that OD's scope of practice will continue to expand to the extent of surgery........as it should...

all the way up to surgery huh.
what would you have opthalmologists do then? even if there are a great number of sub-specialties within opthalmology, i still believe a very great deal of it should be and continue to be their domain. I cant imagine optometrists doing Vitreoretinal surgery, oculoplastic, or even nasolacrimal surgery. But, unless optometry students go through the rounds and hours opthalmology residents endure....

Theres a reason why they go through (residency+fellowship) an intensive 3 year residency and more clinical after med school (from what i understand). The nature of their studies & training is much different and specialized than optometry schools, its a totally different level.
http://www.aamc.org/students/cim/pub_ophthalmology.htm
 
Andrew_Doan, yes so much better thank you! I was having nightmares before, but now I can sleep well. You have to admit that was a pretty intimidating and scary picture you had before. I can't tell you how much better your picture is now, once again thank you! :clap:
 
Originally posted by seanjohn
You have to admit that was a pretty intimidating and scary picture you had before.

4_6_213.gif




:laugh:
 
HighlyF,

Im sorry that I didnt make myself clear. I agree with you 100%,
you cant just throw an OD into doing nasolacrimal surgery for example. S/he would have to go through the appropriate training first! and yes, maybe residency should start being part of the curriculum if that is whats going to happen.
I really want to thank you for clarifying things.....
OD's WILL need special and extensive training if they want to participate (or be at the same level as you suggested) in what ophthalmologists do.
 
Andrew Doan,

thank you for the weblinks....very interesting discussions....

:thumbup:
 
Originally posted by anothertony
HighlyF,

"...OD's WILL need special and extensive training if they want to participate (or be at the same level as you suggested) in what ophthalmologists do.


Dear anothertony...

As this is an optometric forum, this discussion thread is relevant.

In my opinion, your assessment that a 1-2 year "residency" might qualify an optometrist to perform incisional invasive surgical procedures is probably optimistic at best. There are significant issues regarding gross dissection and anatomy which I don't feel that current optometric curricula covers.

I do see a significant contribution that optometry has in medical therapy of eye conditions and can foresee ophthalmology either becoming more subspecialized or more surgical. A residency of 1-2 years length that emphasized medical treatment of eye conditions is certainly something that should be considered and should be constructed. I feel that the current residencies aren't medical enough.

As a surgeon, the reimbursement rates are much higher for surgical and diagnostic procedures and would be attractive. I cannot see why a surgeon would do routine examinations where the same amount of time they could be doing surgical procedures.

Except, there aren't that many surgical candidates (or at least paying ones). Ergo, the oversupply of both kinds of eyecare professionals.

The jurisdictional dispute needn't occur if there were sufficient control of the output of eyecare graduates that realistically matched the demand.

IMHO of course,
Richard_Hom
 
you have too many ideas....i cant follow your train of thoughts. are you motivating us to be M.Ds or just talking about your practice?

I?m not trying to motivate anyone to become an MD or an OD. I believe that the two professions should coexist without tension. You should be proud to be either. One profession is not at a higher level than the other, they are different, and are synergistic if practiced correctly. I think many OD?s have inferiority complexes. Many MDs have god complexes but most of both professions are good people. I have developed my opinions during my twelve years of practicing Optometry. I come from a unique background in that I have three brothers that practice medicine and I have close friends that also practice medicine. I have heard many times from MDs that I?m the smart one for choosing Optometry. I also believe that it is difficult to find a good Optometrist. I know this to be true because I have employed them for over ten years now. I also believe that if you are good at what you do you will most likely like your job, enjoy your life, not have a complex, and make a lot of money. I have a thousand stories. Here is my latest. My friend Ted MD told this to me not more than three days ago. He was talking to a surgeon (Ted is an anesthesiologist) I don?t know the surgeon, anyhow. The surgeon gets his eyes checked by an ophthalmologist, glasses give him a headaches, goes back has recheck and change, still has headache, goes back has MD changes rx again, still has headache. The optician tells surgeon to go to one of two optometrists, other OD or me OD the surgeon goes to other guy, has exam and headache is gone. Now if we are all practicing medicine and no one is practicing optometry then who is going to help these patients. Just to confuse you. I enjoy my extended scope of practice, I write more drug prescriptions than most ODs and I am much better at diagnosing and treating contact lens related pathology, ocular allergy, and dry eye than any ophthalmologist I know, I have treated hundreds of corneal ulcers etc. You wouldn?t want me cutting on you though. If I had to do it all over again I don?t know what I would do. My wife is going to dental school, one of the reasons she decided on DDS is because our MD friends and family told her not to go into medicine. Whatever.
 
Dave makes a really good point. Lets face it, ophthalmologist are not refraction experts, ODs are. ODs are "light specialists." We take courses on Geometrical and Theoretical optics, Ophthalmic optics, light perception, color vision...the list goes on. We know how to change light to do exactly what we want, that is our specialty.

Ophthalmologists are medical experts. They train in mostly disease. We are different but we do have a lot of overlap. A few years ago I would have argued that ODs should and will be surgeons soon. Now I don't know if that is what should happen. I'm not saying that with the right residence program and OD could not be a great surgeon, I'm saying perhaps that in not where ODs should be practicing.

Last year when I was accepted to ICO I was sure I was going to do a residency in ocular disease. Now I think that may a few spots lower on my choices because I can always refer a bad pathology to an MD/DO, but I would be very surprised if I would send someone to an MD/DO if they had something ?refractivly? wrong with them. If the patient has a binocular disorder I'm pretty sure an OD is the best doctor for them. If they have a serious low vision problem, again and OD is probably the better choice. With that said I think I will most likely do a residence in binocular disorders or low vision.

What I'm trying to say is ODs and MDs have different strong points. We both need to focus on those and refer once we hit out limits.
 
rpames,

thank you for your input. I really didnt mean for this thread to become an MD vs. OD issue, there are clearly things that separate the two (you and iidave made this clear). I do feel however that there is some grey areas between the two practices. I dont know, Im sure I'll have more ideas and opinions after I finish optometry school. But , like you suggested, as of now OD's should focus on what they are capable of doing and anything outside of their scope, can be referred.

(im very happy with everyones comments!!) its kinda cool to be able to reach out and get feedback about all the issues in optometry........are we just gettin' warmed up?
 
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