DO or out of country

[EAS2784]

Sorry if someone has addressed this before....

I've been accepted to a few DO school's now but I'm still waiting to hear from my top choice MD school, which is a state school. I'm going to send a letter of interest this week to see if that sparks anything(my stats are competitive for this schools average).

But what is your opinion on this: would you consider going to an out of country school school over going to a DO? My concern is: I studied for the MCAT with a girl who had attended a caribbean school and couldn't get back into the US (I'm assuming her board scores weren't competitive). Her outcome was to retake the MCAT and reapply. Thank you for your opinions!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Robizzle]

from the information i've gathered here, DO >> Caribeans.

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

Do

 

[KeyLime]

I will never understand why people to apply to programs they don't like. I applied to both MD and DO programs. In my opinion, there are some really great DO programs, and I invite you to explore them further. If you haven't already, check out the pre-DO forum to investigate people's opinions. The DO vs foreign school thread pops up a fair amount, and I am confident that you would find some helpful threads if you search the forum. Best wishes!

 

[maygrl110]

From what I've heard...it's harder for foreign MD's to get a residency positions than DO's...though I suppose it depends on what you want to go into and how well you do...but that's a generality. My mom was a foreign MD and still got into anesthesiology with an above average board score, but that was ten years ago. I think that I would prefer DO over foreign MD, but you could always wait a year and reapply, too...good luck! Tough choices!

 

[Robizzle]

may this is rob from evms interview

 

[EAS2784]

I will never understand why people to apply to programs they don't like. I applied to both MD and DO programs. In my opinion, there are some really great DO programs, and I invite you to explore them further. If you haven't already, check out the pre-DO forum to investigate people's opinions. The DO vs foreign school thread pops up a fair amount, and I am confident that you would find some helpful threads if you search the forum. Best wishes!

I wasn't knocking DO schools by any means, I've interveiwed at both and to be honest I've been more impressed by NSUCOM's facilities than a few of our other FL State schools! Sorry if it seemed like I was not open to DO bc I am

 

[wolfram241]

The only thread type I am more sick of than this one is 'do adcoms check facebook/myspace?' or perhaps even 'which LGBT friendly schools require a specific laptop?'.

And to the OP, it isn't even close. Come on... going to school in the United States or having to leave the freaking country to get a medical education?

 

[PEN15]

I wasn't knocking DO schools by any means, I've interveiwed at both and to be honest I've been more impressed by NSUCOM's facilities than a few of our other FL State schools! Sorry if it seemed like I was not open to DO bc I am

given the choice I would go DO over Caribbean. but I don't think you'll be happy with either decision. I guess you would have to ask yourself which would you prefer, having the initials DO behind our name or the stigma that Caribbean graduates carry around. I would just reapply because it sounds like you are competitive for an MD school.

 

[dr_90210]

Sorry if someone has addressed this before....

I've been accepted to a few DO school's now but I'm still waiting to hear from my top choice MD school, which is a state school. I'm going to send a letter of interest this week to see if that sparks anything(my stats are competitive for this schools average).

But what is your opinion on this: would you consider going to an out of country school school over going to a DO? My concern is: I studied for the MCAT with a girl who had attended a caribbean school and couldn't get back into the US (I'm assuming her board scores weren't competitive). Her outcome was to retake the MCAT and reapply. Thank you for your opinions!

The proper question would be DO or out of country or kill self

 

[little_late_MD]

DO. The number of med school graduates is climbing, and the number of residency spots remains static. If those two numbers get close to converging, there is going to be a lot of pressure to reduce the number of foreign graduates in domestic residencies. Now, if you just destroy the boards, I guess it wouldn't matter that much where you went. However, if you're having trouble getting in to an allopathic school now, do you want to take that chance in four years? Stay here, be a DO, and live happily ever after. Or find out what your weakness is application-wise, correct it, and apply next cycle.

 

[EAS2784]

The only thread type I am more sick of than this one is 'do adcoms check facebook/myspace?' or perhaps even 'which LGBT friendly schools require a specific laptop?'.

And to the OP, it isn't even close. Come on... going to school in the United States or having to leave the freaking country to get a medical education?

Sorry to apparently annoy you but I posted this bc unlike many of my premed/undergrad counterparts I have had to work full time my entire undergrad while carrying a full corse load and I just dont know if it's worth taking a year off (I'm not implying anyone here on SDN did not work full time, nor am I implying I worked harder...just noting the fact that I had other things in my life to do besides study and attend lectures.). My family will not be supportive of that.

So sorry to rub you the wrong way but if you're so annoyed with it, just dont open the post

 

[maygrl110]

I agree...I never read the ones I find annoying...Hey Rob! Our covers are blown!!! haha I could care less, but I guess I did that when I put my own pic up as my icon! Your name definitely suits you!

 

[spicedmanna]

Sorry if someone has addressed this before....

I've been accepted to a few DO school's now but I'm still waiting to hear from my top choice MD school, which is a state school. I'm going to send a letter of interest this week to see if that sparks anything(my stats are competitive for this schools average).

But what is your opinion on this: would you consider going to an out of country school school over going to a DO? My concern is: I studied for the MCAT with a girl who had attended a caribbean school and couldn't get back into the US (I'm assuming her board scores weren't competitive). Her outcome was to retake the MCAT and reapply. Thank you for your opinions!

There's no question in my mind that Osteopathic schools are a significantly better option than Caribbean schools for both preclinical medical education and clerkship rotations. I don't even understand why you are even considering Caribbean schools with a couple of DO acceptances in hand, but then again, there are also other factors that influence one's decision that are not based on logic.

I shadowed an IM doc at a military hospital and there were something like 40% DO's working there. While the military does have a higher percentage of DO's than the civilian market, I'd say that this is indicative of a trend. Essentially, there isn't any difference in the quality of education between DO's and MD's, except that the DO's tend to approach the pt from a more holistic standpoint from the very beginning of their education and learn musculoskeletal manipulative skills. All 50 states recognize DO's as equivalent to MD's. If you align with the DO approach, then go for it, otherwise, don't, because you could create a miserable situation for yourself for four years.

It's significantly harder to do well in Caribbean schools. They tend to basically take a chance on you, put you in the mix, and if you float, then it's cool, but from what I read, they will also fail you just as easily. You really have to study hard and perform above average on everything to compete against the US students. It's doable if it's your only option, but be prepared to study your butt off independently in a third-world country. If you do choose Caribbean (again, I'm not sure why you are considering this option, other than to get an MD after your name), make sure you choose one that has pre-set 3rd and 4th year rotations in a US hospital and is accredited in all 50 states.

 

[EAS2784]

There's no question in my mind that Osteopathic schools are a significantly better option than Caribbean schools for both preclinical medical education and clerkship rotations. I don't even understand why you are even considering Caribbean schools with a couple of DO acceptances in hand, but then again, there are also other factors that influence one's decision that are not based on logic.

I shadowed an IM doc at a military hospital and there were something like 40% DO's working there. While the military does have a higher percentage of DO's than the civilian market, I'd say that this is indicative of a trend. Essentially, there isn't any difference in the quality of education between DO's and MD's, except that the DO's tend to approach the pt from a more holistic standpoint from the very beginning of their education and learn musculoskeletal manipulative skills. All 50 states recognize DO's as equivalent to MD's. If you align with the DO approach, then go for it, otherwise, don't, because you could create a miserable situation for yourself for four years.

It's significantly harder to do well in Caribbean schools. They tend to basically take a chance on you, put you in the mix, and if you float, then it's cool, but from what I read, they will also fail you just as easily. You really have to study hard and perform above average on everything to compete against the US students. It's doable if it's your only option, but be prepared to study your butt off independently in a third-world country. If you do choose Caribbean (again, I'm not sure why you are considering this option, other than to get an MD after your name), make sure you choose one that has pre-set 3rd and 4th year rotations in a US hospital and is accredited in all 50 states.

Thank you for the advice. That was what I was looking for.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

What about Irish med schools?

 

[xpinchx]

DO. You can still take your MD boards to get MD residencies, and that's really all that matters.

 

[Bluemirage]

Stay in the US if you can! Only go to the Carribeans if you cannot get into a school in the U.S. There is nothing wrong with the education in the Carribeans...basic sciences are basic sciences. Most of this stuff is self-taught anyway. However, if for some reason you mess up in the Carribeans, the school will not help you. You are pretty much on your own. In a US school MD or DO they will do whatever they can to keep you passing (extra tutorials, assign mentors etc). Another difference will be your clinical and research exposure....there are less networking opportunities since you are away from the US for 2 years. On top of all this you have to move away from all of your friends and loved ones and live a secluded life in a foreign country.

 

[Inkabellous]

I've had a conversation with one of my friends who chose to attend a Carrib school over DO ones. She is currently a third year at AUC doing her rotations at Bakersfield. She was initially accepted to 2 DO schools (Western U and some place) but she decided to go for AUC. Her reasons were that 1) DO's are not recognized internationally meaning that some countries do not grant privileges to DOs. She wants to move to Europe with her family eventually and she's afraid that being a DO would interfere with this. 2) She didn't like the DO schools that she was accepted to and she felt that attending one of those schools would be the same as attending a Carrib one (I have no idea how she arrived to that conclusion). 3) She said that in the end MD is a MD and nobody would ask where you went to school but the initial DO would always be there and for her, that's a big deal. The most shocking thing of all is that her parents encouraged her to go for Carrib instead of DO. I think it was largely due to pure ignorance about DO. Basically, it is a personal choice and you should think carefully before making a decision. I think each person has different view on what is best for them and no one can tell you what is best for you except yourself.

 

[mjzoey]

Hey guys.
I am a 4th year med student (allopath) in process of applying for a residency, and from what i've heard it is MUCH harder for FMG (foreign med grad from carribean/europe/where ever) to get a residency. They basically have to do much better than a med student who graduated from US med school. And if you have a high hope to go to some ivy league places for residency, forget it. certain places (residency) just do not take FMG. You will have better chance being DO. Of course, I was at a conference last May, and I heard one of residency directors stating that as DO applicant basically one has no chance of getting into their program. (one of the reason why I decided to not to apply to this specific program, what a snob!)

And one other info you might not know, DO's have their own osteopathy residency. So as a DO you could apply to 2 different residency pool, for both allo and osteo. I know they have their own dermatology program. But no matter which path you decided to take, do well in school. There are many many great DO's out there at great residency programs. I think if it's between DO and being a FMG, go to DO school.

 

[jillibean]

I am not sure what the match lists from carribean med schools look like, but I saw this DO match list today it looks pretty competetive (TCOM is in Texas, so lots of people probably chose to stay in the area, but there seem to be a lot of quality places on the list):
http://www.hsc.unt.edu/irfair/res2005.cfm





.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Hey guys.
I am a 4th year med student (allopath) in process of applying for a residency, and from what i've heard it is MUCH harder for FMG (foreign med grad from carribean/europe/where ever) to get a residency. They basically have to do much better than a med student who graduated from US med school. And if you have a high hope to go to some ivy league places for residency, forget it. certain places (residency) just do not take FMG. You will have better chance being DO. Of course, I was at a conference last May, and I heard one of residency directors stating that as DO applicant basically one has no chance of getting into their program. (one of the reason why I decided to not to apply to this specific program, what a snob!)

There are stats published about this. Essentially for FMG's, there is about a 50% match rate for US Allopathic residencies, and about a 75% match rate for those DO's that apply to US Allopathic residencies. Both have some trouble, and some programs won't allow 1, or the other, or either one - even to do electives. But DO's do have the osteopathic match all to themselves.

I've had a conversation with one of my friends who chose to attend a Carrib school over DO ones. She is currently a third year at AUC doing her rotations at Bakersfield. She was initially accepted to 2 DO schools (Western U and some place) but she decided to go for AUC. Her reasons were that 1) DO's are not recognized internationally meaning that some countries do not grant privileges to DOs. She wants to move to Europe with her family eventually and she's afraid that being a DO would interfere with this. 2) She didn't like the DO schools that she was accepted to and she felt that attending one of those schools would be the same as attending a Carrib one (I have no idea how she arrived to that conclusion). 3) She said that in the end MD is a MD and nobody would ask where you went to school but the initial DO would always be there and for her, that's a big deal. I think it was largely due to pure ignorance about DO.

So the big question we all want to know is - now does she wish she'd gone to one of the DO schools?

OP: I've asked a lot of physicians about this. While there is some acknowledgement that in certain places there will be limitations, it is almost unanimously agreed that staying in the US for DO is preferable to going out of the country for an MD.

 

[Inkabellous]

In fact, she doesn't seem to regret attending AUC at all. She's thinking about going for either Ped or Ob/Gyn or Internal Med (then G.I.) and these are not competitive (according to her). Anyway, her family is very wealthy. Hell, her parents pay for her med school! So, no matter what route she takes, she'll be fine financially. Also, let me tell you one more thing. She is definitely not stupid nor is she a slacker. She graduated from UCLA (Biology degree) with 3.75 GPA. The thing is that she didn't think that MCAT would be so tough so she didn't study for it. It turned out that she bombed the test (I think she got about 23). That's why she didn't get accepted to any US MD schools. We (other friends and I) told her to wait another year, study for MCAT, take the test, and re-apply but she didn't want to. I truly believe that she would've gotten in somewhere had she done that. Instead, she went ahead and picked AUC. So my point is that people think differently and what is right for one person might not be right for the next. She said there were people from UCB, UCLA, and other Ivy schools in her class. Some of these people chose Carrib because they didn't want DO and/or they didn't want to wait. Also, isn't it true that the majority of DO students also go into primary-care specialties as well? If that is the case, then it doesn't seem to matter which route you choose, does it?

 

[gujuDoc]

Sorry if someone has addressed this before....

I've been accepted to a few DO school's now but I'm still waiting to hear from my top choice MD school, which is a state school. I'm going to send a letter of interest this week to see if that sparks anything(my stats are competitive for this schools average).

But what is your opinion on this: would you consider going to an out of country school school over going to a DO? My concern is: I studied for the MCAT with a girl who had attended a caribbean school and couldn't get back into the US (I'm assuming her board scores weren't competitive). Her outcome was to retake the MCAT and reapply. Thank you for your opinions!

Heyy as a Florida resident I can tell you NSU is quite a great school. I know people who have said they preferred it some of the Fl. MD schools. It might be DO school but they'e had people get in well known residency programs such as Hopkins and IVY league schools. I forget but think Yale and Vandy were some of the places people got in residency from. They had about 50:50 ratio of people getting into MD and DO residencies. They also have an MD residency affiliated with their own hospitals and are the only DO school to have such a thing as an MD residency program within their own affiliated hospitals. that's what someone recently told me.

What Fl. school are you waiting to hear from?? FSU, USF, UF, or Miami??

 

[gujuDoc]

In fact, she doesn't seem to regret attending AUC at all. She's thinking about going for either Ped or Ob/Gyn or Internal Med (then G.I.) and these are not competitive (according to her). Anyway, her family is very wealthy. Hell, her parents pay for her med school! So, no matter what route she takes, she'll be fine financially. Also, let me tell you one more thing. She is definitely not stupid nor is she a slacker. She graduated from UCLA (Biology degree) with 3.75 GPA. The thing is that she didn't think that MCAT would be so tough so she didn't study for it. It turned out that she bombed the test (I think she got about 23). That's why she didn't get accepted to any US MD schools. We (other friends and I) told her to wait another year, study for MCAT, take the test, and re-apply but she didn't want to. I truly believe that she would've gotten in somewhere had she done that. Instead, she went ahead and picked AUC. So my point is that people think differently and what is right for one person might not be right for the next. She said there were people from UCB, UCLA, and other Ivy schools in her class. Some of these people chose Carrib because they didn't want DO and/or they didn't want to wait. Also, isn't it true that the majority of DO students also go into primary-care specialties as well? If that is the case, then it doesn't seem to matter which route you choose, does it?

Um the last tie I checked OB/GYN, Peds, and IM were primary care and it seems thats what your friend wanted to do in the first place.

 

[NonTradMed]

Also, isn't it true that the majority of DO students also go into primary-care specialties as well? If that is the case, then it doesn't seem to matter which route you choose, does it?

I think the number is half of DO students go into primary care. The carribeans have a much higher number and it's harder to specialize coming from a carribean school than a DO school EXCEPT (evidently) for surgery where the MD still carries kaching at many residency programs.

This is what I've discovered while researching this: go to DO if:
1. you want to specialize (except for surgery)
2. don't care about the MD after your name
3. want to stay in the country and not go thru the hassles of coming back for boards/licensing etc

Go to Carribean if:
1. You want that MD after your name (not having to explain to people what a DO is ad nausem)
2. do primary care or surgery (it's still really hard but possible)
3. want to go to med school without having to wait another year and don't mind leaving the country for a couple of years

From what I've heard, the carribeans have a 'sink or swim' mentality. The "Big Three" do have a good history of sending their graduates into good residencies but they also have something like a 50% attrition rate and the administration won't 'coddle' you like a US MD school (allegedly) does. In the end, it comes down to how motivated you are. And going to a third world country is an adjustment. It's not like moving out of state for school.

DO schools have one disadvantage to them and that is the 'what's a DO?' question. While one could argue that someone from a carribean MD school could get his/her diploma and put it away, burying the location of the school, the DO doctor may have to explain what a DO is for the rest of his/her career, and I think its' possible some people may think, "hm, didn't get into a *real* med school, huh?".

My suggestion is still to go DO. You in it for the degree or the prestige? I'd rather get a good education, on par with the MD schools, than go to another country for a questionable education (depending on where you go) and then having to come back with all the inherent hassles of licensing/matching. Remember, an MD from another country doesn't guarantee you anything (heck, it doesn't promise much here either!), it's all about getting a residency and licensed---that will allow you to become a doctor, and that's what med school is really preparing you for.

 

[Hardbody]

I think the number is half of DO students go into primary care. The carribeans have a much higher number and it's harder to specialize coming from a carribean school than a DO school EXCEPT (evidently) for surgery where the MD still carries kaching at many residency programs.

This is what I've discovered while researching this: go to DO if:
1. you want to specialize (except for surgery)
2. don't care about the MD after your name
3. want to stay in the country and not go thru the hassles of coming back for boards/licensing etc

Go to Carribean if:
1. You want that MD after your name (not having to explain to people what a DO is ad nausem)2. do primary care or surgery (it's still really hard but possible)
3. want to go to med school without having to wait another year and don't mind leaving the country for a couple of years

From what I've heard, the carribeans have a 'sink or swim' mentality. The "Big Three" do have a good history of sending their graduates into good residencies but they also have something like a 50% attrition rate and the administration won't 'coddle' you like a US MD school (allegedly) does. In the end, it comes down to how motivated you are. And going to a third world country is an adjustment. It's not like moving out of state for school.

DO schools have one disadvantage to them and that is the 'what's a DO?' question. While one could argue that someone from a carribean MD school could get his/her diploma and put it away, burying the location of the school, the DO doctor may have to explain what a DO is for the rest of his/her career, and I think its' possible some people may think, "hm, didn't get into a *real* med school, huh?".

My suggestion is still to go DO. You in it for the degree or the prestige? I'd rather get a good education, on par with the MD schools, than go to another country for a questionable education (depending on where you go) and then having to come back with all the inherent hassles of licensing/matching. Remember, an MD from another country doesn't guarantee you anything (heck, it doesn't promise much here either!), it's all about getting a residency and licensed---that will allow you to become a doctor, and that's what med school is really preparing you for.

Here are a couple of notes from my experience:

1. DOs don't have to explain what their degree means, it rarely, if ever comes up.

2. DOs can and do specialize in surgery, unless the ophthalmologist and orthopedic surgeon's that I shadowed are imaginary.

Yes DOs do tend to get more primary care slots. There are many reasons for this, including certain osteopathic schools leaning heavily toward primary care which skew the numbers, more DO students wanting to go into primary care, and self selection.

If you don't believe me on the assertion that I have made about a few schools skewing the data, then go ahead and see for yourself. Certain osteopathic schools you will find match lists that reflect the specialization rate you would expect at an allopathic school.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/webextras/brief/sb_med_primarycare_brief.php

 

[NonTradMed]

Here are a couple of notes from my experience:

1. DOs don't have to explain what their degree means, it rarely, if ever comes up.

2. DOs can and do specialize in surgery, unless the ophthalmologist and orthopedic surgeon's that I shadowed are imaginary.

Yes DOs do tend to get more primary care slots. There are many reasons for this, including certain osteopathic schools leaning heavily toward primary care which skew the numbers, more DO students wanting to go into primary care, and self selection.

If you don't believe me on the assertion that I have made about a few schools skewing the data, then go ahead and see for yourself. Certain osteopathic schools you will find match lists that reflect the specialization rate you would expect at an allopathic school.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/webextras/brief/sb_med_primarycare_brief.php

I only meant that it's harder for DOs to match into surgeries. I have heard that if surgery is your interest, than going the carribean route gives you a slight advantage (granted, it's also hard coming from them).

Also, while it's true that DOs probably won't have to explain their titles day in and day out (since most people just call their doctors 'docs' anyway), I was pointing out that this is something that will have to be explained since DOs are a medical minority. Not implying that this is done incessently, or a daily occurence.

 

[Taus]

I only meant that it's harder for DOs to match into surgeries. I have heard that if surgery is your interest, than going the carribean route gives you a slight advantage (granted, it's also hard coming from them).

Also, while it's true that DOs probably won't have to explain their titles day in and day out (since most people just call their doctors 'docs' anyway), I was pointing out that this is something that will have to be explained since DOs are a medical minority. Not implying that this is done incessently, or a daily occurence.

from my experience shadowing docs in a variety of settings.....it seems very rare for it to come up in the clinical setting....most of the explaining seems to be with family and friends during the beginning of med school...its not necessarily a negative thing either...they simply didn't know what DO was all about and people are curious...once explained well its the end of the story...

About the surgery thing from DO or carib....both seem to meet some added difficulty in allo surgery....though thats where having the DO-only spots become a major factor