DO student wants to go to MD residency

[yasah]

Hey everyone
I am california resident. I just got accepted to a good DO school in california and a MD school in east coast . I want to go into ACGME internal medicine residency. If I go to DO school, can I get into a ACGME residency? Would I have the same chance to get into UCSF , UCSD or Loma Linda or good residencies. I would appreciate if med school students comment about my concerns.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Medstart108]

Hey everyone
I am california resident. I just got accepted to a good DO school in california and a MD school in east coast . I want to go into ACGME internal medicine residency. If I go to DO school, can I get into a ACGME residency? Would I have the same chance to get into UCSF , UCSD or Loma Linda or good residencies. I would appreciate if med school students comment about my concerns.

You can get into an ACGME residency as a DO, but it would probably be better for you to attend the MD school on the east coast as it would increase your chances of getting a good residency.

 

[Xdxoxobx]

may i ask which MD school on the east coast you were accepted to?

 

[rokshana]

agreed…you want an MD residency, then go to an MD school...

 

[swlabr1980]

DO here. You should go to the MD school. While DOs are doing better in the IM match, they still have not broken into most of the "top tier" IM programs. The MD school will open the most doors for you.

You could probably get into Loma Linda as a DO, but UCSD would be extremely difficult, and UCSF would be virtually impossible.

 

[P Diddy]

Hey everyone
I am california resident. I just got accepted to a good DO school in california and a MD school in east coast . I want to go into ACGME internal medicine residency. If I go to DO school, can I get into a ACGME residency? Would I have the same chance to get into UCSF , UCSD or Loma Linda or good residencies. I would appreciate if med school students comment about my concerns.

No DOs currently among UCSF IM house staff.

p diddy

 

[235009]

Think of it this way: if you have two students with the exact same stats, one MD and one DO, the MD student would fare significantly better in the IM match. Only the top few students from a DO program will even have a shot at programs that average MD students interview at regularly. Not to mention all the programs that don't even consider DOs. Do yourself a favor and go to the MD school.

 

[keindo]

UCLA–Olive View does not even look at DO applications, and they are a very mid-tier community-flavored program. Ridiculous, but that is the level of bias you will be facing, especially in California. On the other hand, programs in the Midwest are more open to DO students--even then the University of Michigan has none.

I would estimate that the top 20 residencies accept maybe a half dozen DO students a year, combined. And even then, your choices will be limited. Pittsburgh, which I have been repeatedly informed is not in the Midwest, has maybe two or three a year. UCSD, UCLA, UCSF, and Stanford? Zero.

Edit: My mistake regarding UCLA-OV. See below. The point stands.

 

[MerickManual]

go MD, especially if you're thinking California eventually.

 

[amine2086]

Hey everyone
I am california resident. I just got accepted to a good DO school in california and a MD school in east coast . I want to go into ACGME internal medicine residency. If I go to DO school, can I get into a ACGME residency? Would I have the same chance to get into UCSF , UCSD or Loma Linda or good residencies. I would appreciate if med school students comment about my concerns.

This is no brainer. Go to the MD school. There are many that will say MDs and DOs do the same thing at the end of the day and there is a lot of truth to that. But the fact of the matter is MD students do much better in residency and fellowship placement. So, being an MD will open a lot of doors for you (at least initially) that would otherwise be closed with a DO degree.

 

[illegallysmooth]

DO student here. Go to the MD school.

 

[Mad Jack]

Go MD if you want top tier IM.

 

[IM2GI]

The "worst" US MD program is better than the "best" DO Program for your fellowship potential. Every single US MD program is competitive to get into.

DO = Could not get into an MD program (for the most part)

 

[munchymanRX]

DO student here.


Go to the MD school. Just do it. This is the rest of your life we're talking about.

 

[pattr]

UCLA–Olive View does not even look at DO applications, and they are a very mid-tier community-flavored program. Ridiculous, but that is the level of bias you will be facing, especially in California. On the other hand, programs in the Midwest are more open to DO students--even then the University of Michigan has none.

I would estimate that the top 20 residencies accept maybe a half dozen DO students a year, combined. And even then, your choices will be limited. Pittsburgh, which I have been repeatedly informed is not in the Midwest, has maybe two or three a year. UCSD, UCLA, UCSF, and Stanford? Zero.

Funny you should mention UCLA Olive View because I am a DO student and got an interview at OV, as did many of my fellow DO students. There are also a few DO's on the current OV housestaff. So to say that OV "does not even look at DO applications" is serious misinformation.

 

[235009]

Funny you should mention UCLA Olive View because I am a DO student and got an interview at OV, as did many of my fellow DO students. There are also a few DO's on the current OV housestaff. So to say that OV "does not even look at DO applications" is serious misinformation.

looks like there are exactly zero DOs: http://www.uclaoliveview.org/housestaff/bground2013-2014.html

 

[pattr]

looks like there are exactly zero DOs: http://www.uclaoliveview.org/housestaff/bground2013-2014.html

Also funny because I see three DO's from Western University. Or were you not aware that Western U is a DO school in Southern California?

 

[235009]

Also funny because I see three DO's from Western University. Or were you not aware that Western U is a DO school in Southern California?

never heard of it. i stand corrected. not a good sign though that there aren't any in the intern class

 

[keindo]

Funny you should mention UCLA Olive View because I am a DO student and got an interview at OV, as did many of my fellow DO students. There are also a few DO's on the current OV housestaff. So to say that OV "does not even look at DO applications" is serious misinformation.

Apologies for my mistake. I was told that by an advisor and did not look carefully enough at their list. Nevertheless I think the point stands.

 

[babdoc]

I'll contradict a little here. Easier to get the residency you want as an MD grad? Yes. I and most others would probably go for the MD school if we were in your shoes (not that I would necessarily do that as I see things now, looking back after finishing--neither here nor there). But, if there are other factors pushing you to the DO school, don't discount it. Contrary to what some will say, you can and will do fine as a DO. As a pre-med, you honestly do not and cannot know 100% what you want to do. Use the information you have now to make your decision without looking too far ahead or placing too much on predictions of 3-4 years down the road.

 

[IM2GI]

I'll contradict a little here. Easier to get the residency you want as an MD grad? Yes. I and most others would probably go for the MD school if we were in your shoes (not that I would necessarily do that as I see things now, looking back after finishing--neither here nor there). But, if there are other factors pushing you to the DO school, don't discount it. Contrary to what some will say, you can and will do fine as a DO. As a pre-med, you honestly do not and cannot know 100% what you want to do. Use the information you have now to make your decision without looking too far ahead or placing too much on predictions of 3-4 years down the road.

Such as? Other than if location is a huge concern, can't think of a compelling reason.

 

[babdoc]

This really seems like a pre-med forum topic, but I can understand asking people that have gone through it too.

Yes, Location: some people don't want to move across the country just for school. Family situation: spouse, kids; don't want to completely uproot your family for school. Finances: although some DO schools can be very expensive compared to some MD schools, one might consider . Where you think you'll fit in. Traditional vs. non-traditional.

 

[HelpPleaseMD]

go MD. Highly likely you will regret going to a DO w/o some compelling reason.

 

[Silent Cool]

Hey everyone
I am california resident. I just got accepted to a good DO school in california and a MD school in east coast . I want to go into ACGME internal medicine residency. If I go to DO school, can I get into a ACGME residency? Would I have the same chance to get into UCSF , UCSD or Loma Linda or good residencies. I would appreciate if med school students comment about my concerns.

If you were accepted to an MD program, why on *EARTH* are you considering attending a DO school? Did they offer you a full ride or something?

The oncoming residency crunch and the obvious DO bias clearly tip the scales in favor of the MD. Please don't tell me you are considering the DO school because it is in California? I'm guessing you were accepted at Western. Go to the MD school and don't look back.

This thread should not exist.

 

[Silent Cool]

I'll contradict a little here. Easier to get the residency you want as an MD grad? Yes. I and most others would probably go for the MD school if we were in your shoes (not that I would necessarily do that as I see things now, looking back after finishing--neither here nor there). But, if there are other factors pushing you to the DO school, don't discount it. Contrary to what some will say, you can and will do fine as a DO. As a pre-med, you honestly do not and cannot know 100% what you want to do. Use the information you have now to make your decision without looking too far ahead or placing too much on predictions of 3-4 years down the road.

That's exactly why the OP should go MD.

 

[babdoc]

I cannot disagree that the OP would/should probably choose the east coast MD school. My primary point is that there are times when is a more complicated decision. Anyway, this thread probably has run its course. We can agree on that for sure

 

[pattr]

I think the problem with these debates is that different people want different things.

Some of the people in this thread went MD and may have never considered DO (for various reasons: believed it to be an inferior option, didn't know enough about it at the time, etc). Other people went DO after being rejected from their choice MD programs so they preferred MD all along and now years down the line maybe they still would've preferred to be an MD and now are advising so that others will not make the same "mistake" of attending DO.

I for one applied both and saw them equally so I was perfectly happy attending the DO program I got into and four years later I'm still satisfied, perhaps even more so than before, with my choice.

So people in the OP's shoes should decide which kind of person they are (what their true preferences are in MD vs. DO, their values and priorities for location, family, the specific fit of the medical program to their needs and interests) and listen to the advice of those that are most in line with them as individuals.

 

[babdoc]

Best advice on this thread, pattr. I fell in the same camp as you: in my part of the country they're equivalent. I picked the school I liked the best. There's a lot that goes into it.

 

[keindo]

So people in the OP's shoes should decide which kind of person they are (what their true preferences are in MD vs. DO, their values and priorities for location, family, the specific fit of the medical program to their needs and interests) and listen to the advice of those that are most in line with them as individuals.

DO physicians are likely to say they personally valued the DO process more, and MD physicians are likely to say that they personally valued the MD process more. The truth is most people like to look at things positively after spending 4 years of their life doing something (e.g. most residents at most residencies think they made a good choice in their rank list). Furthermore, nobody has gone through the process twice.

All I can say is that at my MD school there were many nontraditional students, and I don't mean got a PhD before medical school. The days of allopathic schools being the straight-edge-science-only-****-the-patient schools are over, and the days of osteopathic schools being the voodoo-magic-heal-the-patient's-cancer-by-touch-only are over. I think you can get a good personal fit at many MD schools, and saying that DO > MD categorically is disingenuous (not that anyone made that argument).

That being said, there are a few truths:
1. On average DO < MD in terms of competitiveness to enter school.
2. In most parts of the country DO < MD in terms of job competitiveness (Midwest might be an exception).
3. In almost all of academia DO < MD.

So the question becomes: for four years of potentially a somewhat better personal fit, on average at a higher financial cost---is it worth closing a bunch of doors?

 

[IM2GI]

Best advice on this thread, pattr. I fell in the same camp as you: in my part of the country they're equivalent. I picked the school I liked the best. There's a lot that goes into it.

False. In terms of clinical privileges sure, both are physicians, and in some parts of the country it is true that there are a lot more DOs. However, when advising a potential medical student, the fact of the matter is that a US MD will have more/easier career opportunities in a variety of fields. While a DO can be anything they want to be, why go the harder path when you have the opportunity to get an MD?

There's a lot that goes into it = Go to the US MD school UNLESS you are absolutely geographically restricted and it better be a good reason.

 

[amine2086]

I think the problem with these debates is that different people want different things.

Some of the people in this thread went MD and may have never considered DO (for various reasons: believed it to be an inferior option, didn't know enough about it at the time, etc). Other people went DO after being rejected from their choice MD programs so they preferred MD all along and now years down the line maybe they still would've preferred to be an MD and now are advising so that others will not make the same "mistake" of attending DO.

I for one applied both and saw them equally so I was perfectly happy attending the DO program I got into and four years later I'm still satisfied, perhaps even more so than before, with my choice.

So people in the OP's shoes should decide which kind of person they are (what their true preferences are in MD vs. DO, their values and priorities for location, family, the specific fit of the medical program to their needs and interests) and listen to the advice of those that are most in line with them as individuals.

So, you applied to both DO and MD schools because you viewed them as equal, got accepted to only DO school(s) and are happy with your choice. It seems to me like you did not have a choice. Just like you, many people that attend DO schools do not have MD school as an option. Bottom line with medical school training is that it requires sacrifice. So, living in a little less desired location and/or having to pay few thousand dollars/year more to make sure the future opportunities in terms of residency and fellowship are not limited is an worthwhile sacrifice in my opinion. Unlike almost all the people that attend DO school, OP has an option and regardless of how you slice it attending an MD school is a much better option.

 

[keindo]

Basically, for the OP, let us put it this way: if you measure how good a school is by the opportunities you have after (e.g. a "top 10" med school will give you an easier path to the residency of your choice than a "top 100" med school), there is no such thing as a "good" DO school. All DO schools are worse than any MD school in terms of ACGME residency.

Also you're in California. If you ever want to go back there, California is especially DO-unfriendly.

 

[HelpPleaseMD]

if you end up going DO, don't say most of us didn't warn you. Maybe its just me, but I also rather see a MD next to my job title if I had a choice.

 

[pattr]

So, you applied to both DO and MD schools because you viewed them as equal, got accepted to only DO school(s) and are happy with your choice. It seems to me like you did not have a choice. Just like you, many people that attend DO schools do not have MD school as an option. Bottom line with medical school training is that it requires sacrifice. So, living in a little less desired location and/or having to pay few thousand dollars/year more to make sure the future opportunities in terms of residency and fellowship are not limited is an worthwhile sacrifice in my opinion. Unlike almost all the people that attend DO school, OP has an option and regardless of how you slice it attending an MD school is a much better option.

All of what you're saying may be true but I'm saying there is more to life than just your career opportunities as MD vs DO so if there are other circumstances in play then you have to take that into consideration as well.

 

[keindo]

All of what you're saying may be true but I'm saying there is more to life than just your career opportunities as MD vs DO so if there are other circumstances in play then you have to take that into consideration as well.

Of course there is more in life, but unlike 200 years ago you don't have to take the Oregon-****ing-Trail with half of your family and all your oxen dead of dysentery to make it to the East Coast from California. For the vast majority of people, especially those at the median age for entering medical school, moving is not that big of a deal. Especially if you consider that having more limited career opportunities in the future may mean moving when one is actually trying to start or raise a family.

I am glad that you are happy with going to a DO school, but to say the choice depends on "their values and priorities for location, family, the specific fit of the medical program to their needs and interests" is misleading. That makes it sound like it's just a little bit better to go to an MD program, and you should therefore choose on the fit. In reality it is much better to go MD, and you should ONLY go DO if you have an incredibly compelling reason.

 

[pattr]

Of course there is more in life, but unlike 200 years ago you don't have to take the Oregon-*******-Trail with half of your family and all your oxen dead of dysentery to make it to the East Coast from California. For the vast majority of people, especially those at the median age for entering medical school, moving is not that big of a deal. Especially if you consider that having more limited career opportunities in the future may mean moving when one is actually trying to start or raise a family.

I am glad that you are happy with going to a DO school, but to say the choice depends on "their values and priorities for location, family, the specific fit of the medical program to their needs and interests" is misleading. That makes it sound like it's just a little bit better to go to an MD program, and you should therefore choose on the fit. In reality it is much better to go MD, and you should ONLY go DO if you have an incredibly compelling reason.

You misquoted me... my words were "what their true preferences are in MD vs. DO, their values and priorities for location, family, the specific fit of the medical program to their needs and interests." There's a reason that's the first thing listed... it's an important point.

 

[IM2GI]

You misquoted me... my words were "what their true preferences are in MD vs. DO, their values and priorities for location, family, the specific fit of the medical program to their needs and interests." There's a reason that's the first thing listed... it's an important point.

Like what? Im being serious.

School A and School B are right nextdoor to each other, in the same town. One is an MD school one is a DO school. Tell me why someone should go to the DO school based on their "true preferences"

 

[keindo]

You misquoted me... my words were "what their true preferences are in MD vs. DO

What does that even mean?

 

[pattr]

Like what? Im being serious.

School A and School B are right nextdoor to each other, in the same town. One is an MD school one is a DO school. Tell me why someone should go to the DO school based on their "true preferences"

What I mean is if someone truly prefers to go to an MD school then they shouldn't go DO because they're probably going to regret it later on anyway. So people should consider their real preference first and foremost and then take into account all the other factors.

 

[keindo]

What I mean is if someone truly prefers to go to an MD school then they shouldn't go DO because they're probably going to regret it later on anyway. So people should consider their real preference first and foremost and then take into account all the other factors.

I guess what I'm asking then, is, why wouldn't someone prefer to go to an MD school?

 

[rokshana]

those that say DO, are missing a crucial point in the OPs post…he want to eventually have a shot at the "top" IM programs in cali, and mentioned a few …UCSF UCSD…and unless I'm mistaken, these are allopathic residencies…and yes, he may change his mind while in med school, but if his goal is an allopathic IM residency, then he should do all he can to optimize his chance at getting one…for allopathic residencies, the easier route is to have an ALLOPATHIC degree…why would you choose to put hurdles in your path if you don't have to...

 

[rokshana]

I think the problem with these debates is that different people want different things.

Some of the people in this thread went MD and may have never considered DO (for various reasons: believed it to be an inferior option, didn't know enough about it at the time, etc). Other people went DO after being rejected from their choice MD programs so they preferred MD all along and now years down the line maybe they still would've preferred to be an MD and now are advising so that others will not make the same "mistake" of attending DO.

I for one applied both and saw them equally so I was perfectly happy attending the DO program I got into and four years later I'm still satisfied, perhaps even more so than before, with my choice.

So people in the OP's shoes should decide which kind of person they are (what their true preferences are in MD vs. DO, their values and priorities for location, family, the specific fit of the medical program to their needs and interests) and listen to the advice of those that are most in line with them as individuals.

so did you get accepted to both? only then can you say that you truly looked at them equally…if you only were accepted by the DO school, then of course you were happy…you got to GO to med school..

 

[yasah]

Thank you guys for advices. Some people really prefers DO and apply for DO. However, I applied for both. I applied for DO for backup. During the orientation, I like the program more than MD. The problem is MD schools look down on DOs. I got my answer about how hard it is to get into UCSF residencies. But if anyone is curious you can look at the Touro University DO match list. There were students matching UCSD and UCD. To all future physicians, please look at nurses, NPs, DOs and other staff equally. (Thats the whole point in the clinic). Having experience with the physicians in Iran, I realized DO gives the similar training. And, believe me the Iranian physicians are muchhhh better than most of physicians here. Most MD schools are integrating the holistic approach (which comes from DO program) in their curriculum. At the end, I reallly appreciate all of your advices.

 

[amine2086]

What I mean is if someone truly prefers to go to an MD school then they shouldn't go DO because they're probably going to regret it later on anyway. So people should consider their real preference first and foremost and then take into account all the other factors.

What's your point? No one prefers to go to DO school because of the aforementioned reasons. People go to DO school because they can't get into MD school. End of the story.

I do not know how far along you are in medical school and whether or not you have faced the realities of applying to MD programs as a DO student. I don't think we would be having this conversation if you already had.

 

[pattr]

I do not know how far along you are in medical school and whether or not you have faced the realities of applying to MD programs as a DO student. I don't think we would be having this conversation if you already had.

I'm a fourth year applying to ACGME IM.

 

[yasah]

What's your point? No one prefers to go to DO school because of the aforementioned reasons. People go to DO school because they can't get into MD school. End of the story.

I do not know how far along you are in medical school and whether or not you have faced the realities of applying to MD programs as a DO student. I don't think we would be having this conversation if you already had.

My friend with mcat of 34 went into DO school

 

[keindo]

Thank you guys for advices. Some people really prefers DO and apply for DO. However, I applied for both. I applied for DO for backup. During the orientation, I like the program more than MD. The problem is MD schools look down on DOs. I got my answer about how hard it is to get into UCSF residencies. But if anyone is curious you can look at the Touro University DO match list. There were students matching UCSD and UCD. To all future physicians, please look at nurses, NPs, DOs and other staff equally. (Thats the whole point in the clinic). Having experience with the physicians in Iran, I realized DO gives the similar training. And, believe me the Iranian physicians are muchhhh better than most of physicians here. Most MD schools are integrating the holistic approach (which comes from DO program) in their curriculum. At the end, I reallly appreciate all of your advices.

Iranian physicians are better than most of the physicians here? Ok bro.

p.s. 2012 IM has one decent school, OHSU, which has historically been favorable towards DOs. The rest are all low-tier programs.

University of South Alabama
University of Arizona
Kaiser Oakland
Loma Linda University
Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital
Santa Clara Valley Medical Center
St. Mary's Medical Center - San Francisco CA
UCSF Fresno
UCSF Fresno
White Memorial Medical Center
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center
Pacific Hospital Long Beach
Naval Medical Center, San Diego
North Broward Hospital District
Northside Hospital St. Petersburg
Loyola University Medical Center
St. John Providence
Valley Hospital
Valley Hospital Las Vegas
Maimonides Medical Center - New York
Fairfield Medical Center
Legacy Emanuel Portland
Oregon Health and Science University
Lewis Gale Hospital Blacksburg

 

[yasah]

Iranian physicians are better than most of the physicians here? Ok bro.

p.s. 2012 IM has one decent school, OHSU, which has historically been favorable towards DOs. The rest are all low-tier programs.

University of South Alabama
University of Arizona
Kaiser Oakland
Loma Linda University
Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital
Santa Clara Valley Medical Center
St. Mary's Medical Center - San Francisco CA
UCSF Fresno
UCSF Fresno
White Memorial Medical Center
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center
Pacific Hospital Long Beach
Naval Medical Center, San Diego
North Broward Hospital District
Northside Hospital St. Petersburg
Loyola University Medical Center
St. John Providence
Valley Hospital
Valley Hospital Las Vegas
Maimonides Medical Center - New York
Fairfield Medical Center
Legacy Emanuel Portland
Oregon Health and Science University
Lewis Gale Hospital Blacksburg

Dont want to be rude! when u didn't have any exposure to global health, don't judge them. They are way mpre experinced than MOST OF MDs Here. Not all though.

 

[amine2086]

My friend with mcat of 34 went into med school

I am assuming you meant to say your friend with a 34 on the MCAT went to a DO school. But what you failed to realize is there is a good chance your friend with that MCAT score was not able to get into an MD school. As you know med. school admission is not just about the MCAT. There are few other things adcom look at. Or perhaps he lied to you about his MCAT score. Also, n=1 is not a trend. So, if you want to make a decision that will affect rest of your life based on some anecdote, be my guest. But you have been warned. If you were to attend the DO school, my guess is that you will be making a post in about four years titled "How does a DO student get into top California IM programs?"

 

[keindo]

Dont want to be rude! when u didn't have any exposure to global health, don't judge them. They are way mpre experinced than MOST OF MDs Here. Not all though.

Look, you haven't even started medical school, I don't think you are in good position to judge the competency of physicians. A lot of physicians in third world countries are better at making diagnoses with much more limited testing, but they have an error rate that would be unacceptable here (because the testing is available). Hospitals in Iran don't have the capability to treat much of the really complicated stuff we get in tertiary and quaternary hospitals here.