DO Thinking About Neurology

[Mass Effect]

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[danielmd06]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Hi. I'm a DO student studying for boards and I'm interested in Neurology as a career field. I did a search, but couldn't really find this as it pertains to Neurology programs. What I'm wondering is if there are allopathic Neurology programs that won't consider DOs?

Also, I know it's in my best interest to take the USMLE, but if I don't, is it a deal-breaker at allo programs? Are there enough that take the COMLEX that I'd be okay in the match?.

Not being a DO myself, I must admit that my information is second hand. We had three DO's in my program in various stages of training at one point or another, and they had all taken the USMLE, and were all standout quality folks.

I'm sure you can find some programs that have DO prejudice, but these are likely getting rarer as more and more DO's move into neurology at auspicious programs. Many programs out there would likely prefer you (an American grad) versus a foreign medical grad with an allopathic degree.

I don't know if it's a deal breaker per se if you don't take the USMLE, but it is very much in your best interests to do so in my opinion. It is the standard that the allopathic schools use and taking it shows your willingness to be compared by that same standard. After all, you're wishing to be considered alongside or in lieu of those allopathic grads.

Perhaps some program director types or former DO applicants could chime in also?

 

[bustbones26]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Hi. I'm a DO student studying for boards and I'm interested in Neurology as a career field. I did a search, but couldn't really find this as it pertains to Neurology programs. What I'm wondering is if there are allopathic Neurology programs that won't consider DOs?

Also, I know it's in my best interest to take the USMLE, but if I don't, is it a deal-breaker at allo programs? Are there enough that take the COMLEX that I'd be okay in the match?.

Depends on the program. Being a DO, my experience has been the following:

The midwest and eastern states has the largest concentration of DOs and they are fairly famliar with the COMLEX. Western states still have some bias, but DOs are moving into the area and new DO schools opening in those regions frequently.

At the end of the day, a strong appicant is a strong applicant and a weak applicant is a weak applicant. I would not sweat it that much.

 

[Mass Effect]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input.

 

[Septo Shock]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Hi. I'm a DO student studying for boards and I'm interested in Neurology as a career field. I did a search, but couldn't really find this as it pertains to Neurology programs. What I'm wondering is if there are allopathic Neurology programs that won't consider DOs?

Also, I know it's in my best interest to take the USMLE, but if I don't, is it a deal-breaker at allo programs? Are there enough that take the COMLEX that I'd be okay in the match?.

Being a DO applicant who just finished the whole interview process, I'd recommend you take both USMLE 1 and 2. It'll open up more opportunities especially if you want to end up on the west coast or at higher tier programs. I took both and a few of the programs I interviewed at stated they were glad I took both because they admitted not knowing how to accurately interpret COMLEX scores. I applied broadly and received way more interview offers than I could have attended. But then again I don't know where I'm matching yet so I guess we'll see if it paid off on March 16th

 

[typhoonegator]

Totally agree. If you want to look at high level non-DO programs, you really should take the USMLE. Not all schools see very many DO applicants, and when they do they would like to directly compare them to the standard. Maybe that's not fair, but those are the breaks.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Being a DO applicant who just finished the whole interview process, I'd recommend you take both USMLE 1 and 2. It'll open up more opportunities especially if you want to end up on the west coast or at higher tier programs. I took both and a few of the programs I interviewed at stated they were glad I took both because they admitted not knowing how to accurately interpret COMLEX scores. I applied broadly and received way more interview offers than I could have attended. But then again I don't know where I'm matching yet so I guess we'll see if it paid off on March 16th

How did you handle the DO match coming first. Did you rank any DO neurology programs at all?

 

[Septo Shock]

How did you handle the DO match coming first. Did you rank any DO neurology programs at all?

No, I didn't participate in the DO match simply due to lack of fellowship opportunities and geography

 

[ushush]

What are the best programs that would take a DO with 250+ step1 and no research, no influential LORs, awkward with people? Any info on U Miami, UCSD or any other program within 10miles of the beach?

 

[HarveyCushing]

What are the best programs that would take a DO with 250+ step1 and no research, no influential LORs, awkward with people? Any info on U Miami, UCSD or any other program within 10miles of the beach?

Awkward with people. Lol

 

[Waysensei]

What are the best programs that would take a DO with 250+ step1 and no research, no influential LORs, awkward with people? Any info on U Miami, UCSD or any other program within 10miles of the beach?

I interviewed @ Kaiser, UCSD, and UC Irvine with a 245 step 1, no research, but strong LOR's. Work hard @ the start of 4th year, secure a good letter from a residency program, and you have a good chance. Most

 

[ushush]

I interviewed @ Kaiser, UCSD, and UC Irvine with a 245 step 1, no research, but strong LOR's. Work hard @ the start of 4th year, secure a good letter from a residency program, and you have a good chance. Most

Thank you! Also forgot to mention I have no ties to california.

 

[95439]

I'm a PGY 2 Neurology DO. There are really only a few programs that I experienced any DO bias at. You can PM me or look at my old posts to see which ones, I'm not going to keep bashing them for their ignorance. But I got interviews at Kaiser and UCSD and definitely did NOT have a 250+ Step 1. PS my voice cracks like a pre-pubescent teen when I get nervous You'll be fine apply all over.

 

[ushush]

I'm a PGY 2 Neurology DO. There are really only a few programs that I experienced any DO bias at. You can PM me or look at my old posts to see which ones, I'm not going to keep bashing them for their ignorance. But I got interviews at Kaiser and UCSD and definitely did NOT have a 250+ Step 1. PS my voice cracks like a pre-pubescent teen when I get nervous You'll be fine apply all over.

Thank you!

 

[Superman DO]

I am a 2nd year DO student, and I am highly interested in Neurology too. I have tried to contact all the Neurology residencies in the midwest, east and south to see if I need to take the USMLE, or if they would be ok with me only taking the COMLEX. I have attached a list of the responses I have recieved thus far. (I hope it is ok for me to post this! I'm just trying to help people out.) It could be argued that while residencies may say that they will accept the COMLEX, it will not make you as competitive than if you had decided to take both exams. This is a very fair arguement. I know many people advise to take both; however, for me, I just do not have the funds available to take the USMLE since my wife and I are just living off loan money. I am not looking to go to a top teir residency nor am I necessarily looking to head back to the west coast again, so I am hoping that I can pull off getting a Neurology spot in 2 years with just my COMLEX. I am really going to try work on other aspects of my application by busting my butt during rotations to ensure that I not only get high grades and great letters, but learn as much as I can about being a great doctor so I can maybe shine if I do get offered some interviews. At the end of the day, I am passionate about Neurology, and I do not seeing myself being anything other than a Neurologist, so I would be extremely happy just to match Neuro. Here is the list that I have accumlated so far. I hope it helps!

 

[Darktide]

I am a 2nd year DO student, and I am highly interested in Neurology too. I have tried to contact all the Neurology residencies in the midwest, east and south to see if I need to take the USMLE, or if they would be ok with me only taking the COMLEX. I have attached a list of the responses I have recieved thus far. (I hope it is ok for me to post this! I'm just trying to help people out.) It could be argued that while residencies may say that they will accept the COMLEX, it will not make you as competitive than if you had decided to take both exams. This is a very fair arguement. I know many people advise to take both; however, for me, I just do not have the funds available to take the USMLE since my wife and I are just living off loan money. I am not looking to go to a top teir residency nor am I necessarily looking to head back to the west coast again, so I am hoping that I can pull off getting a Neurology spot in 2 years with just my COMLEX. I am really going to try work on other aspects of my application by busting my butt during rotations to ensure that I not only get high grades and great letters, but learn as much as I can about being a great doctor so I can maybe shine if I do get offered some interviews. At the end of the day, I am passionate about Neurology, and I do not seeing myself being anything other than a Neurologist, so I would be extremely happy just to match Neuro. Here is the list that I have accumlated so far. I hope it helps!

Nice of you to share that with the potential DO applicants. =)

Neuro in the DO world is a small world, and Facetime is the most important factor in the majority of the programs. Do a few rotations at DO programs, work hard, show interest, and don't piss people off. You'll get a spot. =)

Good Luck, the match process is terrible. I'm so glad it's over =P

 

[HarveyCushing]

Nice of you to share that with the potential DO applicants. =)

Neuro in the DO world is a small world, and Facetime is the most important factor in the majority of the programs. Do a few rotations at DO programs, work hard, show interest, and don't piss people off. You'll get a spot. =)

Good Luck, the match process is terrible. I'm so glad it's over =P

There is what, 7-8 AOA programs. Why even consider that. Small hospitals, poor pt diversity, lack of variety, fewer faculty, poor geographical variation of programs, lack of fellowship programs, less variety of faculty interests, smaller program to share call with fellow residents, lower patient volume, limited/no research opportunities....etc. The list goes on. I would highly highly recommend going to a ACGME program if interested in neurology. There are many programs that would be happy to have a English as first language speaking resident. There is no benefit of going to a DO program. None. There is maybe 1 or 2 DO programs worth considering.

 

[Darktide]

HC,

The same could be said about -MANY- MD programs...

And making sweeping generalizations (and dismissing) ALL DO programs, with statements that are totally false (even contradictory) in one sense or another, shows your ignorance of the programs themselves.

Choose a program based on training goals... not everybody has the same end-goal for their career, and different programs offer different benefits... regardless of size, etc.

 

[HarveyCushing]

HC,

The same could be said about -MANY- MD programs...

And making sweeping generalizations (and dismissing) ALL DO programs, with statements that are totally false (even contradictory) in one sense or another, shows your ignorance of the programs themselves.

Choose a program based on training goals... not everybody has the same end-goal for their career, and different programs offer different benefits... regardless of size, etc.

I didn't dismiss all DO programs. I said there are 1-2 that might provide decent training. If you want an inferior training and lack of fellowship opportunities then go AOA. There are very few "bad" ACGME neurology programs. The purpose of residency is to get a well rounded clinical training. The only way to do that is by volume and variety.

So why don't you provide info why DO programs offer the same level of training as ACGME programs?

 

[Superman DO]

Thank you so much for sharing this with the rest of us. I'm a second year too. I'm wondering if you've gotten any other replies since you posted this? At the moment, I'm going back and forth on whether or not I should take the USMLE (I'm weak in biochem) and I'm curious if a place like UMass will consider me with just the COMLEX.

No, I have no recieved any more responses since I posted the list; however, I do have a response from UMass. I do not know why it did not end up on my list. Their response was that they did accept the COMLEX in lieu from the USMLE; however, they also said I should take step 3 before I applied to residency. I do not really know what they meant by this because I thought step 3 was always taken after PGY1!

However, after I take step 1, I plan on emailing the programs that did not get back to me before and see if I can get an answer from them. If I get more responses, I'll post them for everyone.

 

[ArtVandalay4]

I am currently at a D.O. institution and our interns took their Step 3 really early in their intern year. My brother is an intern at an M.D. institution and he just recently took his Step 3 (closer towards the end of his intern year). I have not heard of any one taking Step 3 before starting intern year.

 

[ArtVandalay4]

No, I have no recieved any more responses since I posted the list; however, I do have a response from UMass. I do not know why it did not end up on my list. Their response was that they did accept the COMLEX in lieu from the USMLE; however, they also said I should take step 3 before I applied to residency. I do not really know what they meant by this because I thought step 3 was always taken after PGY1!

However, after I take step 1, I plan on emailing the programs that did not get back to me before and see if I can get an answer from them. If I get more responses, I'll post them for everyone.

For Superman and MassEffect-

I am a D.O. candidate currently starting my fourth year and applying to allopathic residencies. Although a program may say they accept the COMLEX that does not necessarily reveal how good of a shot you have as a D.O. candidate. A way I currently used to asses places I want to apply to is by going to each program's website and looking at their current/past residents to see if they had D.O.'s in their program. I made a Google document of every program in the country and listed this information. I could not find this on all programs (some programs do not list their residents or their degrees). However, I have the vast majority. Of course some programs may not have any current D.O.s in years 1-4 but may still accept them. If you would like to view the document P.M. me and I will email it to you. On the flip side. I know people who never took the USMLE and got 5-10 M.D interviews at pretty competitive places. Good luck

 

[Superman DO]

For Superman and MassEffect-

I am a D.O. candidate currently starting my fourth year and applying to allopathic residencies. Although a program may say they accept the COMLEX that does not necessarily reveal how good of a shot you have as a D.O. candidate. A way I currently used to asses places I want to apply to is by going to each program's website and looking at their current/past residents to see if they had D.O.'s in their program. I made a Google document of every program in the country and listed this information. I could not find this on all programs (some programs do not list their residents or their degrees). However, I have the vast majority. Of course some programs may not have any current D.O.s in years 1-4 but may still accept them. If you would like to view the document P.M. me and I will email it to you. On the flip side. I know people who never took the USMLE and got 5-10 M.D interviews at pretty competitive places. Good luck

Thank you so much for offering to let us view your google doc! I am definitely aware that just because a program accepts the COMLEX does not necessarily put me on equal footing with candidates that have taken the USMLE, or both exams; however, it does help to rule out which programs I definitely have zero chance at gaining acceptance for not taking the USMLE. Like you, I also take a look the residents and graduates of each program to find out the number of DO residents/graduates are affilated with each program. I think I am a little too obsessed with prowling every Neurology residency website to find out as much information as I can! lol I just have a big passion for Neuro, and I look forward to being able to practice it every day. I hope to rock the COMLEX in 13 days, and I hope that residencies will notice my other strengths as a candidate rather than focusing on the fact I did not take the USMLE. Best of luck to you as you travel the application path to residency! I hope get into your number one choice!

 

[ArtVandalay4]

Please see attached. As stated earlier, a lot of programs did not have this info listed. I may have missed a few programs as they must not have appealed to me when I was making this sheet but it includes almost all allopathic programs. The board scores and program codes I got off of the FREIDA website or from each school's individual website. Most of the websites will take you directly to the neuro website for that respected program. I also have included whether the program is categorical,advanced or prelim. However, refer to the previous thread with the Google map for this info as it is much neater and concise. Lastly, please excuse spelling errors etc.

 

[Superman DO]

Please see attached. As stated earlier, a lot of programs did not have this info listed. I may have missed a few programs as they must not have appealed to me when I was making this sheet but it includes almost all allopathic programs. The board scores and program codes I got off of the FREIDA website or from each school's individual website. Most of the websites will take you directly to the neuro website for that respected program. I also have included whether the program is categorical,advanced or prelim. However, refer to the previous thread with the Google map for this info as it is much neater and concise. Lastly, please excuse spelling errors etc.

Nice work! You rock!

 

[Terpskins99]

I didn't dismiss all DO programs. I said there are 1-2 that might provide decent training. If you want an inferior training and lack of fellowship opportunities then go AOA. There are very few "bad" ACGME neurology programs. The purpose of residency is to get a well rounded clinical training. The only way to do that is by volume and variety.

So why don't you provide info why DO programs offer the same level of training as ACGME programs?

And you know this... how?

Just a suggestion.... put up some facts, rather than throwing out vague blanket statements that are really more your opinion than anything else.

http://www.gvh-svh.org/med-ed/grandview/Neurology/Neurology_Alumni.cfm
Here's one of those AOA neurology residencies that listed three of their recent graduates who pursued fellowship:
Sleep medicine, Neuromuscular and.... yep... Neuro IR.

Not bad.

 

[HarveyCushing]

And you know this... how?

Just a suggestion.... put up some facts, rather than throwing out vague blanket statements that are really more your opinion than anything else.

http://www.gvh-svh.org/med-ed/grandview/Neurology/Neurology_Alumni.cfm
Here's one of those AOA neurology residencies that listed three of their recent graduates who pursued fellowship:
Sleep medicine, Neuromuscular and.... yep... Neuro IR.

Not bad.

I was speaking about AOA neurology residencies having a lack of fellowship programs themselves. In addition, it is only a matter of time before the ACGME cracks down and makes it a requirement to complete a ACGME residency prior to going to an ACGME fellowship: http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=82991. This will happen and is only a matter of time.

In addition for the example that I know of and personally care about, to sit for the NCC boards and be board certified in NCC, you need to complete a ACGME residency. An AOA residency will not count. Sure some might not care about being board certified, but I would. Not sure how it works in other neurology ACGME accredited fellowships. So please don't bring in your asinine arguments into this discussion as it does not pertain to my comments.

Sure some people might not want to do a fellowship. That is fine but you won't know until you are in residency. Some might not care about being board certified. That is fine. But there are others who might care about that and won't know until they are in their residency/fellowship.

 

[Terpskins99]

lol, "asinine arguments". Still talking out of your rear end again. Good to see that things haven't changed over the years.

If you want an inferior training and lack of fellowship opportunities then go AOA.

Your words. My facts ran straight into the face of your opinions. And what do you mean by "inferior training" anyhow? Do you honestly expect us to believe that you know the kind of training each (any?) of the AOA neurology programs provide?

A question. Have you even begun your neurology residency yet?

Poor pt diversity

Seriously?

 

[typhoonegator]

Be civil or this thread will close.

 

[HarveyCushing]

Your words. My facts ran straight into the face of your opinions. And what do you mean by "inferior training" anyhow? Do you honestly expect us to believe that you know the kind of training each (any?) of the AOA neurology programs provide?

I'm not trying to get into an argument with you. But please provide these "facts" as I still have yet to see any.

Yes I would argue that most AOA programs except for a few programs have a poor clinical and research training compared to the majority of ACGME programs. The vast majority of AOA programs are at small community based hospitals. You don't see the kind of patients/pathology that make you a well rounded neurologist at a small community hospital vs. a large tertiary care center. Not sure what you are trying to argue about.

 

[timbaktoo]

I am a 3rd year DO student who wants to get some guidance if i stand any chance of matching into a DO Neuro residency program. I FAILED COMELX 1 because I was going through a rough phase mentally and had to take a semester off to recover. I came back and resumed my rotations, got an Honors in Neurology. I have a masters degree in neuroscience with publication and have done a lot of research work in neuroscience prior to med school. My Assistant Dean tells me I don't stand a chance anywhere except Primary Care because of the red flags. Should I just believe him and abandon my dream specialty ? Do you guys know students who have failed boards and yet matched into neurology ? Thank you for reading this long post

 

[NeuroDO3536]

I am a 3rd year DO student who wants to get some guidance if i stand any chance of matching into a DO Neuro residency program. I FAILED COMELX 1 because I was going through a rough phase mentally and had to take a semester off to recover. I came back and resumed my rotations, got an Honors in Neurology. I have a masters degree in neuroscience with publication and have done a lot of research work in neuroscience prior to med school. My Assistant Dean tells me I don't stand a chance anywhere except Primary Care because of the red flags. Should I just believe him and abandon my dream specialty ? Do you guys know students who have failed boards and yet matched into neurology ? Thank you for reading this long post

Did you take the USMLE? Taking Step 1 and 2 is important, and would probably help make up for failing Comlex 1. I don't know how failing a test is weighted, but it can't hurt to at least apply and use primary care as a backup.

 

[timbaktoo]

Did you take the USMLE? Taking Step 1 and 2 is important, and would probably help make up for failing Comlex 1. I don't know how failing a test is weighted, but it can't hurt to at least apply and use primary care as a backup.

Thanks a lot for those words of encouragement. Do you think killing COMLEX level 2 will help make up for failing level,1 or i should just focus on USMLE 1 and 2. USMLE 1 is going to be quiet a challenge because I'm out of touch with the basic nitty gritties of biomedical science

 

[NeuroDO3536]

Not sure if I would go back and take USMLE 1 if you are out of touch with the material. Doing poorly or failing it wouldn't help things. Maybe just take USMLE and COMLEX both for Step 2? I'm not that involved in in the recruitment process, so I can't say for sure what would be your best bet.

No matter what you decide to do, I would still apply for neuro (ACGME and AOA both) and see what happens.

 

[calibrate]

While we're on the subject of Osteopathic students and boards. Are the USMLE Step 2CS and Step 3 required for ACGME neurology residencies and fellowships? I am a 4th year osteopathic student that took COMLEX level 1, 2CE, 2PE (passed) and USMLE step 1 and step 2. I am wondering if I need to schedule the step 2cs. I rather save $1300 and not take it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[s5260205]

I think board exams are purely for the purpose of obtaining medical license. As long as you complete your COMLEX level 3, you don't have to take USMLE step 3 or step 2 CS.

 

[calibrate]

I think board exams are purely for the purpose of obtaining medical license. As long as you complete your COMLEX level 3, you don't have to take USMLE step 3 or step 2 CS.

Thanks!

 

[NeuroDO3536]

While we're on the subject of Osteopathic students and boards. Are the USMLE Step 2CS and Step 3 required for ACGME neurology residencies and fellowships? I am a 4th year osteopathic student that took COMLEX level 1, 2CE, 2PE (passed) and USMLE step 1 and step 2. I am wondering if I need to schedule the step 2cs. I rather save $1300 and not take it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

They are not required for licensing. Just all the COMLEX tests.