Hello everyone. The match is over for the 2015 class and thus the struggle passes on to us. I'm creating this thread because I feel that there just isn't a lot of centralized information on AOA certified Urosurgery residency programs, however there are nuggets here and there (urologymatch.com). To air it all out I've been on the fence for quite some time about exactly which residency I wanted to pursue, however recently I've become resolute on Urology. My grades for MS 1/2 are average, straight A's since MS 3 (yes we still use the letter system at our school), COMLEX is 459, which feels like a kick in the nuts, but I intend on making great improvement in step 2. I have no current research to brag about, but I have worked with some very important urologists in the US and have LORs from them. So what are some other peoples experiences? Have any of you already done 3rd year rotations at prospective residency programs? Has anyone heard which programs should be avoided? I've been trying to find out how going to a DO program will set one back from an allopathic program. I would like this to be an open forum for people to discuss their concerns, and share our strengths. Please no insults, school bashing or browbeating over COMLEX or grades.
DO Urology Hopefuls 2016 Class
- Thread starter Dr.BLZ
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I just don't know how urology is possible with a below avg comlex1... I wish you luck though. can you get research soon?
Indeed, this is the most daunting of my challenges. I'm corresponding with a few programs to see if I can aid in any research. Additionally, I've read in other threads that one can counter their COMLEX 1 with a good COMLEX 2. It would be nice to hear from someone who might have more experience on this subject, but it would seem that once a student enters residency they often stop logging on to SDN.
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Re: your chances. Your step one is, in fact, a kick in the nuts. However, DO programs care about audition rotations more than anything else on earth. In fact, the majority won't interview you without one, regardless of your application. So you could be a superstar who didn't audition and guess what? The guy who auditioned (and did well during said audition) with the 459 is getting the interview, not you. I only say this so you know you're not out of the game. However, there are some steps you need to take.
Murder step 2...jeffrey dahmer style. Be ridiculous.
Be awesome on audition rotations (and if you have to choose, consider doing auditions at places that aren't quite as competitive as some others. That 459 is still a 459.)
Research (you probably hate it like 95% of med students out there but fake it till you make it)
Great letters
Straight honors/A's/whatever from here on out.
You got your one ****-up: your step one score. You don't get another.
Good luck!
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My friend who matched this week got a 550 COMLEX Level 1 and got above 500 on Level 2 and did audition rotations but still didn't match to AOA Urology...He scrambled into an AOA IM program which was his second choice specialty...it's extremely competitive because it's high-paying and decent lifestyle...but if you wow a program director during an audition rotation and get a solid Level 2 score, anything is possible? Good luck!
If you guys want some real experience that got a person in, I'm it. I just matched into my top choice. I am more than happy to tell you all my scores and what I did to get in.
First of all, scores. The step 1 average is probably around the mid 600's but there's two outliers in the mid 500's. I got a 647. To the OP, I'm gonna be honest with you and say that your step 1 in the 400's is a huge setback and I just don't know how you'll be viewed. I'm not sure that a great audition would overcome that score. Its very competitive and that's a huge part of your application... The step 2 isn't as important I don't think. Mine went down a bit but others went up. I think the audition may be more important than that step.
I didn't get great grades, I'm somewhere in the middle quartile of my class, just kinda meh. My letters weren't stellar but I had at least one Uro letter from a community urologist. If you want ANY shot at an ACGME program you MUST get a letter from a PD at an ACGME program. That's the only way a DO has half a chance. I know two people that matched MD and that's what they did differently.
Research. Do it if you can. I had bench research and publications after first year. I did a case report AND got involved in some clinical trial research, uro specific- both on my first audition. I know this was very helpful. I also have a master's degree and have extensive research in this area as well. I think my research really helped me stand out and overcame my average grades.
Auditions: I did four auditions at a month each. I started in Philly the month of August then Cook in Chicago, MSU in Lansing and DMC in Detroit. Some programs like you to do a month and others are ok with two weeks. But if you really want a program, absolutely do a month there.
Feel free to ask any other questions.
First of all, scores. The step 1 average is probably around the mid 600's but there's two outliers in the mid 500's. I got a 647. To the OP, I'm gonna be honest with you and say that your step 1 in the 400's is a huge setback and I just don't know how you'll be viewed. I'm not sure that a great audition would overcome that score. Its very competitive and that's a huge part of your application... The step 2 isn't as important I don't think. Mine went down a bit but others went up. I think the audition may be more important than that step.
I didn't get great grades, I'm somewhere in the middle quartile of my class, just kinda meh. My letters weren't stellar but I had at least one Uro letter from a community urologist. If you want ANY shot at an ACGME program you MUST get a letter from a PD at an ACGME program. That's the only way a DO has half a chance. I know two people that matched MD and that's what they did differently.
Research. Do it if you can. I had bench research and publications after first year. I did a case report AND got involved in some clinical trial research, uro specific- both on my first audition. I know this was very helpful. I also have a master's degree and have extensive research in this area as well. I think my research really helped me stand out and overcame my average grades.
Auditions: I did four auditions at a month each. I started in Philly the month of August then Cook in Chicago, MSU in Lansing and DMC in Detroit. Some programs like you to do a month and others are ok with two weeks. But if you really want a program, absolutely do a month there.
Feel free to ask any other questions.
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Uro 2 here at a DO Program.
OP--I don't want to say it is "impossible", but I would say you need to have a VERY REALISTIC back-up plan. Your level 1 score is going to be extremely difficult to overcome. I know at my program you would have little to no chance. Our top 5 ranked applicants this year had COMLEX scores in the mid 600's to 700's. I know it's not the news you wanted to hear, but I think it is important to be realistic going into this process. There is nothing wrong with applying, but having realistic expectations will help you have a better match experience.
That being said, you will always here of that one person that "wowed" a program, etc. Things are changing a lot in the DO world though. Our program (as well as most or all of the other DO uro programs) will be soon ACGME accredited. Our program is ready to submit things on June 1st this year. This means the field will open to ALL qualified DO/MD applicants. I don't know we'll have every competitive MD applicant applying to a "new" DO-MD program, but with ACGME match rates in the 60-70%, I'm sure there will be tons of applicants. Audition rotations are important...but it is more important in trying to differentiate between the kid with a 590 COMLEX and a 620. Again, this is from my program experience of N=1.
What are we looking for? Good boards are a must for us--we take the in-service AUA exam every November and there is a big emphasis by our PD to perform well on it. We are expected (as a program) to be above the national average...so this is why being able to "score well" on a test is emphasized (to a certain degree). The COMLEX is a joke though...it's a random test and anyone can have a bad day. Scoring in the 600- 700's on level 2 can help your cause, but you'll still have to convince people that you are the "600" guy and not the "400" guy.
Every single person we ranked had good research experience. It's not required to have a novel prospective study, but at the minimum, having a uro case report or being involved in SOME sort of research shows you know what an IRB is, how to submit abstracts, presenting posters, etc. Nobody will say it is required, but these are the fine toothed things that help differentiate candidates that are ranked closely.
Anyway, it is a tough road...each year, very competitive applicants don't match. It sucks, but it is just the way it is with limited spots.
In the end, go for your dream...but have another plan. Also, remember if you plan on re-applying to uro, you have to ask yourself..."What about my application is really going to change from this year to next?" The answer is, not much. The applicants continue to get more competitive each year...so go chips all in this year!
Feel free to ask me any questions. I'm only on here rarely, but will try to check back in. Best of luck to everyone this upcoming year!
OP--I don't want to say it is "impossible", but I would say you need to have a VERY REALISTIC back-up plan. Your level 1 score is going to be extremely difficult to overcome. I know at my program you would have little to no chance. Our top 5 ranked applicants this year had COMLEX scores in the mid 600's to 700's. I know it's not the news you wanted to hear, but I think it is important to be realistic going into this process. There is nothing wrong with applying, but having realistic expectations will help you have a better match experience.
That being said, you will always here of that one person that "wowed" a program, etc. Things are changing a lot in the DO world though. Our program (as well as most or all of the other DO uro programs) will be soon ACGME accredited. Our program is ready to submit things on June 1st this year. This means the field will open to ALL qualified DO/MD applicants. I don't know we'll have every competitive MD applicant applying to a "new" DO-MD program, but with ACGME match rates in the 60-70%, I'm sure there will be tons of applicants. Audition rotations are important...but it is more important in trying to differentiate between the kid with a 590 COMLEX and a 620. Again, this is from my program experience of N=1.
What are we looking for? Good boards are a must for us--we take the in-service AUA exam every November and there is a big emphasis by our PD to perform well on it. We are expected (as a program) to be above the national average...so this is why being able to "score well" on a test is emphasized (to a certain degree). The COMLEX is a joke though...it's a random test and anyone can have a bad day. Scoring in the 600- 700's on level 2 can help your cause, but you'll still have to convince people that you are the "600" guy and not the "400" guy.
Every single person we ranked had good research experience. It's not required to have a novel prospective study, but at the minimum, having a uro case report or being involved in SOME sort of research shows you know what an IRB is, how to submit abstracts, presenting posters, etc. Nobody will say it is required, but these are the fine toothed things that help differentiate candidates that are ranked closely.
Anyway, it is a tough road...each year, very competitive applicants don't match. It sucks, but it is just the way it is with limited spots.
In the end, go for your dream...but have another plan. Also, remember if you plan on re-applying to uro, you have to ask yourself..."What about my application is really going to change from this year to next?" The answer is, not much. The applicants continue to get more competitive each year...so go chips all in this year!
Feel free to ask me any questions. I'm only on here rarely, but will try to check back in. Best of luck to everyone this upcoming year!
Thanks for the advice.
Thanks for sharing your experience thus far. What kind change from step 1 to step 2 COMLEX do you think needs to be achieved in order to make me appear like a viable candidate for residency?
Like everybody else has said, you need to destroy your step 2. I'm not sure how much weight is put on step 2 though. After you do that I think the best thing you can do is focus on doing really well on your auditions.
Hey first post for me. But umm yea I just spent my whole third year waiting for my last rotation which is Surgery. I changed gears a bit and really fell in love with Uro. I will have to do some rescheduling for my 4th year if I pursue this. I just wanted some feedback on where I stand and if I have a shot. Stats - Comlex 1 - 677. Couple honors first 2 years and honors on IM shelf. No USMLE (worried due to the highly competitive nature of this field), no research, top 15%, SSP, and a few average letters (only 1 un urology). To me it seems like I'm just a general applicant that looks like they didn't dedicate much time to uro, which stinks because I went into third year thinking Gen surgery and am coming out with a completely different outlook. Any thought on where I stand? or what to do to make myself more robust (not sure where to get research).
Not counting my research your stats are better than mine and I matched. I only had one uro letter too. I never even honored any rotations, nobody even brought up or mentioned anything about any rotations in interviews. Start putting together your rotations ASAP and see what you can do about getting involved in some research. I know someone that matched this year and had zero research- so you're not in as bad of a position as you think. Although every place I interviewed wanted to know my USMLE and had me send the score report to have on file as well.
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What type of research did you do and when did you do it? Did you get published?
Thanks
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I have a question about your research experience. You said that you had done bench research and had subsequent publications after M1. How did you go about getting that research opportunity? And more importantly, were you spending approx 5-10 hours in the lab weekly? Wasn't that overwhelming?
I did bench research at my school and only worked the summer after first year. I got lucky and fell into an opportunity and I got published a couple times. I also did some chart review and a case report at one of my urology rotations.
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my ears were burning.
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I am an OMS1 so I know I am a ways away from the match and everything but I am pretty strongly interested in Urology. My current plan for this summer is to do a lot of review of my M1 stuff and get everything set and scheduled for board prep. Do you think it is in my best interest to look for some bench research for this summer? I did some research in undergrad and really didn't like it but it could have just been do to the time it took from my school work. However, I know it's a part of the game so I'm willing to do bench research if need be. Is bench research looked on more favorably than something like a case report that you did?
What do you guys mean when you say "good research experience?" What do you consider good research and what do you consider a waste of time?
Thanks for the info!
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Disappointing lack of penis jokes in this thread. You all need to bone up on available double entendre and try harder. The girth of material available is immense. Though some may be put off by the sensitive nature of the subject, I find it quite intellectually stimulating.
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I see what u did there.
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Don't take part in research if you are not interested in it. You should have learned this from undergrad.
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Can someone explain why dick surgery is an appealing career?
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Good money for a generally very nice lifestyle (not a lot of urological emergencies taking them from time with their families). Interesting pathology. Plus all the genital jokes you can handle.
Where did you end up matching?
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Why don't you try to find some clinical research? Some sort of retrospective chart review study is much more likely to get completed and published in that time frame, plus it would give you a chance to experience a different side of medical research than one you already know you dislike.
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Can somoene explain how to carry out a retroactive chart review study?
can I do this as an independent? Or do I need to be at some sort of hospital or academic institution? I've been able ot publish research with a doctor, but he was much more familiar with the procedure
can I do this as an independent? Or do I need to be at some sort of hospital or academic institution? I've been able ot publish research with a doctor, but he was much more familiar with the procedure
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I am pretty sure no hospital would offer an independent researcher charts to review. You would probably need some institution backing you.
I also know literally nothing about this. I am completely assuming.
What is a retrospective chart review? I tried Googling this but there isn't really anything too specific about it.
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Hypothetically it could be possible...but I don't really see a scenario in which a solo med student would be able to get IRB approval to conduct a study of patient information without a doc on board to provide oversight and research guidance. An established PI will make it easier to get your work published as well.
I agree. I don't think it's all that likely one could do it without a PI, and even if you could I think it would lead to lower quality work and a more painful process.
The basic idea is straightforward. You identify a research question that interests you ("does earlier initiation of drug X after procedure Y lead to shorter length of stay and fewer SICU admissions?" or something), identify your study population (for this study maybe all patients undergoing procedure Y at your hospital between the years 2xxx-2015, whatever gives you a reasonable sample size), and then look at the charts (hopefully you have EMRs and not paper records) of those patients to get all the variables you're interested in (demographics, disease outcomes, exposures of interest, potential confounders, etc.) and put them into a spreadsheet or some sort of data file that you can analyze or send to a statistician to analyze. This is kind of a bread and butter research approach with med students because it's methodologically simple and relatively easy to conduct. Doing chart review can be kind of a drag, but projects like this generally have comparatively fast turnaround and it's a good opportunity to see a project through from start to finish. It's not going to be a cover article in the New England Journal but it could be a good chance for a first author paper somewhere or at least an abstract and presentation at a conference.
This sounds like exactly what I would be interested it. I just didn't want to do something where I was sitting there doing Western Blots all day like in undergrad with little chance at a publication. I think I will call some urologists around here that are doing research. There is a Mayo clinic about 30 minutes from me that has a good list of urologists doing research. So would you recommend just calling around and seeing who would be interested/willing to work with me on this?
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Yeah that seems reasonable. Just find some people researching stuff you think is interesting and see if they'd be interested in working with a med student.
I also didn't really enjoy bench research, which I did in undergrad and afterwards before I started med school. I think clinical research is more interesting and much less soul-crushingly futile and boring (I hope to never do another western blot or pcr in this life).
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Freshly minted PGY-1 uro here at my top choice program. Here's my .02 (see my thread in the urology forum here; it has some program reviews)
1) OP: agree with other poster -- step 1 is a real kick in the nuts. I know right out of the gate you'd be cut-off from my program. Do as well as possible on step 2 (if you haven't already taken it) and kick ass on rotations. Have a back-up you'd be happy with.
2) Research: do whatever you can. One of my new co-residents and I BOTH published papers from projects we got during our audition. Any research is better than none (uro research > general research >>>>>> no research)
PM me with any questions you guys might have. Good hunting!
-TS
1) OP: agree with other poster -- step 1 is a real kick in the nuts. I know right out of the gate you'd be cut-off from my program. Do as well as possible on step 2 (if you haven't already taken it) and kick ass on rotations. Have a back-up you'd be happy with.
2) Research: do whatever you can. One of my new co-residents and I BOTH published papers from projects we got during our audition. Any research is better than none (uro research > general research >>>>>> no research)
PM me with any questions you guys might have. Good hunting!
-TS
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I'm an MS3 who just got back step 1 scores and want to know if I will be competitive come application time.
My stats so far:
comlex - 650s
My stats so far:
comlex - 650s
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